UKH

I encountered a couple of rust-locked carabiners at the top of a sport route which made getting down fairly awkward (removing quickdraws while down-climbing) so I'd like to buy a couple of these - you know the heavy duty steel carabiners - to leave at the top of the route for everyone to use. Could someone please recommend one, or direct me to the type required please? It would be much appreciated

Why didn't you thread the bolts or the carabiner if it looked in safe condition other than the gate sleeve being stuck shut?

Thanks Gethin. I'm at the novice end of the climbing scale and the position at the top of this route is basically balancing on one foot with a hand on a sloping edge to maintain position - not great for a relative beginner like me, especially when there's also a 'technical' issue to resolve. I had to reverse down to a ledge, which wasn't too pleasant. If I could have just clipped in at the top it would have been much nicer. I didn't check for info on the route before going (it does say the screwgates are rusted shut) - we just turned up and was recommended by someone there as being the easiest route at that location. Like I say I'm a novice, and at grade 5a I found it tricky. Looking forward to going back though and doing it a few more times - getting more efficient on it.

Sometimes the steel crabs have their gate glued shut on purpose to prevent people nicking them, if the person doing the bolting didn't have any forged rings. You can just thread them like you would at any other sport route lower-off. If you've not done this before, it's worth learning at ground level first.

You can clip a qd into the top and get your belayer to take before sorting out rethreading.

https://rockrun.com/blogs/how-to-guides/how-to-lower-off-a-sport-climb?fbcl...

You need to learn how to retread a lower off BEFORE you go climbing again😉

In the long term it's probably best to just learn to rethread an anchor - most places don't have snapgates to clip through so at some point you'll have to rethread either shut karabiners, staple bolts or maillons/rings.

If the position is uncomfortable just clip a sling or chain of quickdraws into the anchor and hang on it whilst you sort things out. You need to do that to rethread anyway.

If you do want to replace the gates I assume Bolt Products will sell you something suitably long lasting, but you'll probably want to remove the existing ones as well.

Perfect! Thanks Mowglee 

Thanks Deacon. That's my job for the week as I'll be returning next Saturday. It was actually my first outdoor sport climb. Didn't intend on climbing or doing anything other than practicing gear placement at the bottom of the routes.

Thanks AJM. I'll check out Bolt Products.

See also: https://www.thebmc.co.uk/how-to-lower-off-from-a-sport-climb
(There's probably  a UKC equivalent in the articles here somewhere too.)

Here's Mowglee's link again without the facebook nonsense on the end:
https://rockrun.com/blogs/how-to-guides/how-to-lower-off-a-sport-climb

I haven't watched those vids all the way through, but just for your information there's a common spelling mistake that jumps right off the screen there.  A loop of rope isn't a 'bite', it's a 'bight'. 
(Same pronunciation, which is why it's a common mistake I guess.)

It's very public spirited of you to want to replace the gear, but it would probably be better to wait until you're not a novice and get to know the place a bit better first.  As Mowglee says it's even possible the gates have been glued shut on purpose.  If you're keen to make a contribution you could always check to see if there's a local bolt fund where you could chip in a couple of quid towards re-equipping the routes.

Rethreading is an essential skill when sport climbing outdoors, in exactly the same way that belaying is. Learn it now and it will keep you (and your wallet) in good health for all of your future climbing adventures.

Regarding the tenuous position - it should be irrelevant, because when you reach the lower-off you can clip it with a lanyard and hang around in relative comfort while you rethread.

Further to what others have said, some useful info here:

https://www.vdiffclimbing.com/sport/

Quite often the equipper has put some threadlock onto the screw to prevent these crabs from being nicked by tight arsed thieves, just thread the bolt as you would a staple and lower off it like that.

The situation you describe, needing to re-thread from a non hands off position is an absolutely core skill, you shouldn't be going up another route until you've learned and practiced dealing with that scenario safely with ideal and with improvised equipment. I hope that doesn't sound harsh, it's not meant to be.

Jk

You can never count on a lower-off having a working carabiner. As everybody else has said, knowing how to safely thread a ring/chain/rusted shut carabiner at the top of a route is *the* most basic skill in sport climbing. You are a danger to yourself and should not venture outside again until you have learnt it.

A one minute video of one way of doing it:

vimeo.com/340412797

Chris

Here's a video I did, with the two methods that'll see you through most situations:  youtube.com/watch?v=EjDNpYw4l34&

Happy climbing!

I wouldn't bother, whenever I've left crabs at the lower off (where there have been maillons which twist the rope) they have always been nicked.

That's a great response, thanks deepsoup. I'll enquire on how to donate towards upkeep of local crags - perhaps on UKC forums midweek (conscious of adding too much kipple on here).

Thank you for the advice, I am only now just learning the ropes (and lanyards) of sport climbing. Much appreciated. 

Thanks cragtyke. I'll take a look at that.

Will do spenser. I don't blame whoever places this kit for protecting the investment by sealing the gates shut. I'm a sport climbing noob so it's all a revelation to me. Cheers 

Thanks jkarran. You're absolutely right. I was caught out by my lack of sport climbing experience, and what you've said makes total sense. Hoping to go again next weekend. Unfortunately 5a is the easiest route there (besides a severe trad route which we may also climb).

Too true Alan. Learning this will be my project this week, and I will hopefully put it to practice next weekend (sport climbing noob here). Thanks

That was really helpful Chris, thank you. Do you know type of rock that was in the video? Looked like it would be good fun to climb.

Thanks jezb, that was excellent! Top class video you made there! I've subscribed for more.

Not gonna lie, I mouthed ‘oh my god’ when I read and contemplated what I was reading. I am however, glad you’ve been given some solid advice as that’s not always the case on here. Seems like you caught ukc at the right time. 

Limestone (polished), Orpierre, France,

Chris

Thanks Chris

Never actually thread the hanger on a petzl bolt and lower off it! 

To the OP: If the bolts at the top are petzl bolts then the hangers will probably have some kind of ring, Karabiner or maillon on them.  Thread the maillon/krab, not the hanger.  Also, put a maillon on your harness in case you, at some point, feel the need to use it to lower off.

I know this is not what you meant spenser, and some people might think this is pedantic/obvious (both?!) ... but given the context of the conversation I felt compelled to add this.

No! Absolutely do not do this unless you want the next person on the route to hate and curse you!

Lowering off on maillons is massively antisocial. Sacrifice a carabiner instead - the difference in cost is minimal, and you're not cluttering the (presumably) crux bolt with a piece of rusting, hard to clip, dubious strength litter.

Sorry - good point. I meant to replace something dubious on the lower off (although you could argue the same applies, I guess) but didn't want to make the post longer.

Agreed.  Mallions get rusted shut very easily and have to be cut off.

If you can't finish a sport route either use a clipstick to get you to the top and rethread in the normal way, or sacrifice a carabiner.

If you find a mallion on a route and it's not rusted shut yet please remove it and chuck it away!

Get a BetaStick Evo. Save your ankles!

Where were you climbing out of interest?

Totally reasonable to point it out, thanks for flagging that. I should have stated the karabiner, not the bolt.

Dizzy vision:

Cath is talking about bolts like these when she says not to thread and lower off them:

https://www.skylandequipment.com/petzl-anchor-hanger-coeur-steel-10-and-12m...

The sharp edges will trash your rope very quickly and potentially cut your rope.

When I talked about lowering from a bolt/ staple directly I was thinking of something like this :

http://www.bolt-products.com/BelayBolts.htm or 

http://www.bolt-products.com/ProtectionBolts.htm

There's some good stuff about bolts in here (hopefully to be updated soon):

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bolts-advice-guides

Cheers spenser. Loads of great info and I'm super grateful for the help. Thank you

I've ordered a Petzl connect adjust lanyard- not cheap but really good by all accounts. Looking forward to getting back and doing a proper job of the route.

Book a day with an instructor - AMI or BMG. You'll learn loads and won't regret it.

AMI

https://www.mountain-training.org/membership/ami

BMG

https://www.bmg.org.uk

Thanks for the suggestion meggies, I'll certainly look into it. My brother was a climbing instructor in the early 90's but he gave it up to become an engineer. Unfortunately though he didn't keep up with the pursuit so he is very rusty these days. Our spare time and funds are restricted by average pay, kids, home life, etc etc, so getting out there and doing a bit of climbing/mountaineering is a big commitment for us. When the covid situation allows we'll head for Coire Mhic Fhearchair to climb Ordinary Route on the East Buttress of Beinn Eighe (a 3 star multi-pitch diff climb). From there we'll see what lies ahead, perhaps we'll feel the need to hire a qualified instructor to get us up more technically challenging stuff. 

Sounds good!

No, I mean hire an instructor to make sure your rope work etc is safe and efficient (not too slow) - basically, so you won't die. Then you'll have the confidence to begin pushing the difficulty.

If you're limited for time, as you say, then definitely hire an instructor - you'll cover as much in a day or two as you would in months or even years learning on your own.

Considering that you are at the point of not only not being able to thread the anchors on a sport climb, but not knowing that this was even a thing and believing that there would be a screwgate at the top of all routes,  wouldn't bother trying anything multi pitch before you have a good grasp of the concepts on single pitch stuff.

Multipitch trad has been our focus. We went up the sport route out of curiousity really as it didn't look overly difficult which it wasn't. Sure, we used unconventional methods, but the situation was always under control. I looked at the above website for instructors and I'm going to make an effort before the end of the year to get one booked. Cheers 👍

Well, I am keen on staying alive (cue the Bee Gee's) so I'm going to go with your suggestion meggies and book a session before the year is out. Thanks 

Excellent - here's to a long and happy climbing life!

Sorry Dizzy, but if you have struggled to understand what happens at the top of a one pitch sport climb, please, please do not attempt multi pitch anything let alone trad. 

Realising where you need to stop to belay, and swapping over a belay at the end of the pitch can be confusing to a seasoned climber let alone a beginner. Added to that there will be no metalwork at the belays meaning you need to set up a safety system that's sturdy enough to hold you and a falling partner if necessary. I've been climbing outside weekly for a few years, I still make a mess at belay stance swapovers now and then, especially a tight one with 2 ropes on the go. 

Take it slow and steady.