UKH

I've been reading Climbing Anchors by John Long and Bob Gaines, and there's one detail they seem to miss is what a second would clip/tie into when reaching an equalette or sliding X anchor. The masterpoint in this case is two karabiners, so if you (the leader) tie into the two with a figure of eight, your second can't then tie in without compromising your safety.

Am I missing a really simple solution here?

Place another carabiner in the sliding x next to the leader's and tie into that?

Personally I never bother to tie into two carabiners, i just clove hitch into one. I think a lot of the recent developments in anchor building are a bit ott - useful to know and think about but in practice for suitable for guides in a professional environment than amateurs (like me). Having a few options is great when you build an anchor but in general simplicity is king and cordellettes etc are a bit of a distraction. If the gear's good, you're safe.

I think that the consensus is that a regular cordelette style anchor is still considered the best and easiest option. Perfect equalization is rarely crucial, so there rarely is a need to use a sliding X or similar option.

Keep things simple, equalise with the rope, it's available and usefully stretchy.

jk

Yeah true, karabiner failure is incredibly unlikely. The guide setups I always see are usually just them cloving into one anyway.

That's fine if you are swinging leads but not so good if you are leading in blocks.

Is the Sliding X Anchor the same as the Sliding Death Anchor where, if one piece fails, the other is shock loaded? If so, surely no sane person uses it.

Never stopped me, the second just duplicates the leader's rigging using extra krabs on the same gear before the leader retrieves theirs and moves off, it takes seconds. Each to their own though.

jk

In the book they recommend adding limiter knots which reduce shock loading to the point where it's negligible. I was using that to give context in case some people don't know what an equalette is since the equalette method devloped from the sliding x, honestly I'm not likely to use it very often.

Most of these techniques are best suited to filling pages and rainy afternoons debating them. Simple and using the normal kit you always have with you anyway is usually best.

jk

A decently made and modern(?) version of the equalette or "quad" anchor will have 4 strands between two limiter knots. That gives a pair for the leader and a pair for the second. The advantage there being that each person is given the freedom to weight the anchor without too much distortion to the load on the protection, as the equalization occurs between the limiter knots.

That said, its still only worth using on belays with solid bolts, where gear failure is on the highly unlikely end of the spectrum. It's also worth noting that even with a so-called self-equalizing system like this, it is not perfectly equalized on the protection, as other factors will come into play. 

For double bolt belays: https://www.climbing.com/.image/t_share/MTQ5MjkyOTY2ODQwNjQxMjMx/46_gn.jpg

or as an example in a trad setting: https://d1vs4ggwgd7mlq.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/Article-Images/New...

Is it just me, or do most of these convoluted belay constructions come from across the pond?

Do you mean two locking carabiners connecting you to the anchor? Never seen that ever

Interesting to see in the second pic the leader decided to tie himself in with a screwgate, but is happy to belay his second on a snapgate

To me an equalette seems similar in terms of faff as using the rope to connect more than 2 pieces. Whenever I've done it I've always ended up with a crowded HMS on my rope loop (though reading the book has given me some other ideas on that so it's not an issue anymore). If I was swinging leads I'd use the rope but as said above, if I'm leading in blocks or bringing up someone who isn't confident enough to lead, I'd need to apply something like this anyway so I'm trying to familiarise myself with it.

You really don't need more than a few krabs and the rope(s) whether you're leading in blocks or swinging leads. Efficiency derives from familiarity, understanding what you're doing and getting on with it.

jk

The only reason I can think of for using slings of some sort and a central point rather than the ropes for belaying is that it makes it s bit easier to escape the system in an emergency.

The simple solution you're missing here seems to me to be sodding off the sliding-X altogether.

The only place for a sliding x is probably when equalising two bits of gear as a runner because you're not in a relaxed position and you're struggling to tie a knot with one hand.

Otherwise, you would equalise with an overhand. If there's enough slack, you pull everything into a V and tie a big overhand using all the strands. If there's not enough slack, you tie an overhand roughly in the middle (or wherever the equalised centre would be), clip each end to an anchor, and put a locker through both of the loops created by the knot. This looks like a sliding-x but won't shock load and doesn't involve faff with limiter knots. (Here: https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/learn-the-swamp-anchor).

I can't see the need for any other method of equalising a sling, but you can also clove hitch the sling to the crabs if for some reason this really seems necessary.

As for where the second clips in: you're tied off to one HMS/locker and you just put another HMS in the same place (i.e. make sure it's through all the strands) and tie them off to that. Clove hitch or overhand on a bite are simplest, with the first being easier to adjust, the second being easier for a novice to tie.

If block leading, using slings to bring your anchor to a central point make change overs much quicker than using the rope.

When swinging leads I probably use the rope to build belays 90% of the time. 

When block leading I probably use slings 90% of the time. 

I've no problem with using slings where they work and I have done so many times but I really don't buy the 'much quicker' argument. Two clove hitches take seconds to tie and rigging with ropes means you don't need to both be in exactly the same space on a roomier stance as you would with a 'powerpoint' sling making everything a little easier. Ropes are also easier to adjust finely (and one handed) to get comfortable, useful for those of us with creaky old feet and backs (or slow partners!).

jk

Same here, much more straightforward. 

Agree completely with all that! So much more flexible.

Clove hitches at the gear are useful if you want to make your powerpoint lower (guide plate within reach or reducing angle between pieces are the reasons I tend to do it this way rather than the overhand method you describe, both get used similarly often though).

I mean in the sense that I regularly find all sorts of weird and wonderful belay-building techniques, and people extolling their virtues, on American climbing websites. The default in this country, in my experience, is usually to use the rope of occasionally a cordelette. In a decade of climbing in the UK I've never seen anyone use an equalette, and the only person I've ever seen use a sliding X has been myself (on lead, or to consolidate two bits of gear into one for convenience as part of a larger belay using the rope).

I suspect our enthusiasm for rope belays might be a consequence of our enthusiasm for double ropes - but I climb on a single whenever I can get away with it, and I can't say it's a faff building a belay from a single rope until you find yourself with 4+ pieces. Very rarely, in other words.

Forgive me if this is a noob question (I've used HMS/Italian hitch all my life in the mountains, only recently started using tubes at the wall to avoid rope twist), but: won't that tube in the second picture provide little or no braking friction if the second unexpectedly falls a few metres?

It's a Reverso set up in "guide mode", so although it's similar to a classic tube device it's not being used in the conventional way. The top rope is the live rope to the climber and the dead rope is on the bottom. If the climber falls, their rope pinches down on the dead rope. You should still keep a hand on the dead rope but guide mode can be very handy as a backup, especially if you've got rope or gear to sort while you're belaying.

It might also be because the Americans have more big walls than us, where there are loads of pitches to get through, you might be leading in blocks and changeover efficiency becomes super important to speed and success. Obviously efficiency is useful in the UK as well but we don't have very many routes where a bit of extra faff at each belay would jeopardise your chances of completing the route in a day, or even a morning. They're also bigger fans of bolted belays, which tend to lend themselves well to a pre-constructed rig.

Thanks for the explanation!

Just some thought on using a cordelette approach.

I have timed numerous anchor building approaches and in many ways it makes little difference.

However.

There is a kind of scale of situations over which is probably does make sense to at least consider the cordelette over the rope. So, times where a cordelette does make sense:

climbing in a three of four

when the second hasn't got a clue, so will take time and be confused (one clove hitch to a power point is easy to do and understand)

using guide mode

when you want to park people at different levels (in essence you hang them off the guide plate, with a backup knot, and don't tie them off)

3 or 4 piece anchors when climbing on a single rope

when trading plates (i.e. carrying 3 belay plates - look it up - with the second swinging leads and not tying in)

when hauling

when simul climbing with a trax

when climbing with others from around the world who use the approach

Conversely the rope make a lot of sense much of the time. It everyone carries 3 spare carabiners (termed magic carabiners), then this makes rope based belays quicker, and helps with cordelette ones too.