Breaking down Belay stations: Best Practise?

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 BalintSamad 24 Oct 2019

Hello!

First time posting, long time lurker.

I have a question and was hoping some of you kind folk could help me out... When seconding multipitch routes, what is the best course of action when breaking down a belay station, especially at hanging belays?

In freedom of the hills it recommends cleaning the ancho as soon as its safe to do so and keeping tethered to one anchor until the leader has you on belay, but I'm not completely sure what the auther means by this.

Thanks!

 ChrisBrooke 24 Oct 2019
In reply to BalintSamad:

As with lots of climbing things there’s textbook, best practice, sloppy practice, practical practice... etc. It depends on the situation. I will often tend to start taking my belay apart once my leader has said ‘safe’, leaving one bomber piece that I’m still tied into until I hear ‘climb when ready’. Then I whip that out and get going. This can save a bit of time, but depends on the stance and the quality of the anchors as it’s obviously a speed/safety decision that is slightly compromising safety. I’m happy to make those judgement calls for myself as I’ve been doing it a while. I probably wouldn’t do that on any sort of true ‘hanging’ belay,  but I’ve rarely been on proper hanging belays on trad (rather than sport e.g Fiesta De Los Biceps - no way I’m prematurely stripping my anchors there!) 

Post edited at 09:25
2
 Bulls Crack 24 Oct 2019
In reply to BalintSamad:

I generally wait until the leader tells me its safe to climb before dismantling my belay - too much room for misunderstanding otherwise! 

 TomGB 24 Oct 2019
In reply to BalintSamad:

I would take that to mean you remove most of the bits of gear when it is '"safe to do so" but keep one bit in until you are on belay. 

I'd argue that it isn't "safe" to remove any bits of my anchor until I'm on belay from above, especially on a hanging belay. When my mate has me on belay, then I can start faffing with the anchor and getting it all out. This does depend on how safe the belay feels and how bomber the gear is of course. If I'm stood on a massive ledge then I'll happily remove everything when the leader is safe. 

Post edited at 09:27
4
 john arran 24 Oct 2019
In reply to ChrisBrooke:

Agreed. The safety requirement once the leader has told you they're safe changes hugely and becomes a purely personal decision. If I'm in balance on even a small ledge I'll take pretty much everything out, sometimes everything, in the knowledge and confidence that I'm secure and would be equally happy in that situation unroped. More generally, and especially on hanging stances, I'll reduce the gear to a point at which, were I to just have led a pitch, I would be happy shouting 'Safe' before continuing to add backup pieces to the belay.

In reply to BalintSamad:

If I'm on a big ledge I might dismantle all but one secure piece. Hanging belay with a some less than perfect gear and I might wait until I'm absolutely sure I'm on and the rope is pulling at me.

OP BalintSamad 24 Oct 2019
In reply to BalintSamad:

Thanks for your answers guys! How would this change if you were using your rope to make an equalised belay, as opposed to a sling?

 AlanLittle 24 Oct 2019
In reply to john arran:

More or less the same here. If I'm standing on a big comfy ledge, everything out. If I'm hanging from half a dozen brass micros, probably too scared to touch anything until I'm sure I'm on belay.

 ChrisBrooke 24 Oct 2019
In reply to BalintSamad:

> Thanks for your answers guys! How would this change if you were using your rope to make an equalised belay, as opposed to a sling?

Wouldn’t change for me as that’s how I tend to tie in to my anchors anyway.

edit: where each piece of gear/loop of rope is independently tied off to me. 

Post edited at 12:42
 jimtitt 24 Oct 2019
In reply to BalintSamad:

> Thanks for your answers guys! How would this change if you were using your rope to make an equalised belay, as opposed to a sling?


I just clip in with a sling to a good piece and dismantle the belay.

OP BalintSamad 24 Oct 2019
In reply to ChrisBrooke:

Wouldn’t things start to get problematic if you have weighted the anchor and trying to untie cloves that you are hitched in with? 

 ChrisBrooke 24 Oct 2019
In reply to BalintSamad:

Possibly. Depends if I’m actually weighting it, which is rare. If it’s a problem I won’t do it - just wait until you’re on belay then dismantle it all. Or as Jim says, clip in with a sling and dismantle. There  are lots of different approaches which will depend on your stance, your anchors, whether you’re actually in a rush or not.... I probably make different decisions on an 18 pitch alpine route compared to a two pitcher in North Wales. 

OP BalintSamad 24 Oct 2019
In reply to ChrisBrooke:

Aha, I see! It makes a lot more sense to me now, And opens up a lot more questions too!  

 jkarran 24 Oct 2019
In reply to BalintSamad:

> I have a question and was hoping some of you kind folk could help me out... When seconding multipitch routes, what is the best course of action when breaking down a belay station, especially at hanging belays?

> In freedom of the hills it recommends cleaning the ancho as soon as its safe to do so and keeping tethered to one anchor until the leader has you on belay, but I'm not completely sure what the auther means by this.

Erring on the side of safety not knowing your experience: Don't do anything to compromise the integrity of your belay until the rope has gone snug and you're sure you're belayed by your partner. If there's a few redundant bits or directionals or whatever you can take them out and tidy up a bit before you're ready to climb but don't take risks. You really don't want to be trusting your life to a single loaded piece of gear, things go wrong and with the best will and all the experience in the world we won't always spot every risk. Redundancy is your friend.

Sometimes the belay ledge is actually pretty safe and the belay is really to keep the pair of you from going if the leader falls early on. You might with some experience under your belt decide to cut corners and dismantle that partially or fully before you're on belay from above. Bear in mind though the unexpected, getting hit by a rock the rope has dislodged, getting tangled and stumbling as the slack is taken up, losing your balance pulling shoe heels on etc etc, there are lots of stupid ways to die in the hills.

You don't find many genuinely hanging belays, where you have one it's often best, when ready to climb to pull on, flick all the gear out leaving it all hanging off you or loosely clipped out of the way. Sort it out properly when you get to a hands off position. Likewise stripping a strenuous pitch, keep moving, flick the gear out as you go leaving it clipped to the rope at your waist, re-rack it from rest positions.

jk

 gustl 24 Oct 2019
In reply to BalintSamad:

I start cleaning the anchor even before the leader reaches the next belay. but only to a certain point that seems save. 

on a bolted belay, even if it is a hanging belay, i would strip it until only one srew gate with my clove hitch remains. take that out once i start climbing.

on a anchor on cams,... i dont think i have ever had a hanging belay on gear only... 

on ice it is a different story. if anything happens, you dont want to get caught in the zone of collapsing ice. so i would only reduce it by one screw.

on longer climbs, all that saves time. and sometimes you have to start climbing already without the leader having a belay.

19
 tehmarks 24 Oct 2019
In reply to BalintSamad:

One minor point which no one seems to have touched on is the order you deconstrct your belay in. If the belay has been constructed with the rope, it usually makes most sense to start with the bit of gear furthest away from you and work back towards your tie-in. If you do it the other way round, you'll end up with a load of slack that can't be taken in until you undo the last clove hitch. 

Sorry if that is blindingly obvious, but I have no idea of your experience!

1
OP BalintSamad 24 Oct 2019
In reply to BalintSamad:

Thanks all for your replies, all very useful, helpful and thought provoking! My experience is leading and seconding multipitch routes, but all from comfortable belay ledges, I was scouring the internet to find explanations as to how this works at hanging belays and when not using slings as equalised anchors  

 PaulJepson 24 Oct 2019
In reply to BalintSamad:

In the grand scheme of things, taking a belay apart is a very quick part of trad. It takes.......what.......a minute to do? Unless I was on a massive ledge that I'd have to walk and then throw myself off the edge of, I'm not touching that anchor until I hear "on belay, climb when ready!"

You might save yourself 30 seconds but is it worth the risk? It takes a tenth as much time to deconstruct as it does to build one, so why rush and put yourself in danger?

1
OP BalintSamad 24 Oct 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

I agree with you there, on shorter 2 pitch climbs the time you save is minor, on longer routes, I guess it can add up!

My question was directed towards finding out the actual process and best practise of how everyone disassembles their belays

 C Witter 24 Oct 2019
In reply to BalintSamad:

Top tip: don't overthink it.

If your partner has you on belay, dismantle the belay as makes sense, normally starting from their side of the rope. But, whatever you prefer is fine so long as no one is at risk of dying.

1
 Misha 24 Oct 2019
In reply to gustl:

What, are you mad? The belay is there for a reason, you can’t start taking it apart before the leader is safe and even then I wouldn’t advise anyone to start taking it apart until they are on belay from the leader. 

 Misha 24 Oct 2019
In reply to BalintSamad:

There is only one answer as to what best practice is: leave the belay alone until the leader has you on belay.

The leader should then get you on belay asap - it should not take long for them to take in the rope and put you on belay.

Post edited at 23:07
 John Kelly 24 Oct 2019
In reply to Misha:

both at belay, you have 2 or three pieces

leader halfway up pitch (hopefully) you now have the belay and a few more bits 

leader at the top of the pitch, you are attached to the wall with the belay and everything in between - should be bomber

When the leader shouts safe you have 2 belay's and all the gear in the route 

I strip the belay down to the bare minimum as soon as the safe call is made unless there is some additional problem.

1
 Misha 24 Oct 2019
In reply to tehmarks:

Not really. You undo the belay in reverse order to how you have put it together. That way the leader takes in rope each time you undo a clove hitch, avoiding a build up of slack.

When you build your belay, generally you should attach to any out of reach pieces first, then in reach ones (if it’s really out of reach, you won’t be able to do it the other way round anyway as you won’t be able to get to the out of reach piece). If the out of reach piece is poor, use slings to make a powerpoint with a better piece. 

 Misha 24 Oct 2019
In reply to John Kelly:

That’s your choice. It’s not best practice, which is what the OP was asking about. You seem to forget that there is normally a load of slack rope in the system as most pitches are far shorter than 50/60m. If you strip the belay to a single piece say and it fails under your weight, you will drop as far down as the slack allows, plus rope stretch. Doesn’t matter if the leader’s belay is good (it should be!), you will still fall a long way. Obviously less of an issue if you are on a decent ledge but even then you’ve got cosmic events to consider - falling rocks, gear, sheep...

 tehmarks 24 Oct 2019
In reply to Misha:

> Not really. You undo the belay in reverse order to how you have put it together. That way the leader takes in rope each time you undo a clove hitch, avoiding a build up of slack.

That's...errr...exactly what I said. Furthest away from your tie-in, as in furthest along the rope from the end that you're tied into.

 John Kelly 24 Oct 2019
In reply to Misha:

'Not best practice' probably not but I hate it when you climb a pitch and the second can't follow until he has, tied his shoes, faffed with the belay, finished his lunch etc etc

5
 Misha 25 Oct 2019
In reply to tehmarks:

I see what you were saying now, it just wasn’t very clear (to me at least) as you said ‘furthest away from you’, which suggests distance from the belayer to the gear.

Anyway, we’re talking about the same idea of undoing the belay in reverse order to how it was constructed, so that the leader can take the rope in as it’s released from the belay. 

 Misha 25 Oct 2019
In reply to John Kelly:

Putting shoes on doesn’t take long and can be done while the leader is stacking the spare rope, while taking apart the belay shouldn’t take long either. A couple of minutes per stance isn’t going to make any appreciable difference on routes in the UK.

1
 rgold 25 Oct 2019
In reply to BalintSamad:

People are using the idea of "best practice" as if what to do was already decided on and engraved in stone.  Best practice in reality is what fits the team's goals and the individuals' level of experience.  Using a method that trades a bit of safety for time efficiency doesn't make much sense if time isn't a critical factor.  If time is important, then it is commonplace for experienced climbers to trade the highest level of security for more efficiency.

Personally, I climb with an installed tether.  I've gone through various chain models and Purcell Prusiks and nowadays use the Petzl Connect Adjust (the one without the extra rappel extension).  I find it very useful in a host of situations, but getting back to disassembling the belay, I clip my tether into the best piece (the one I'll leave in for last) when I arrive at the stance, and then anchor with the rope to whatever has been rigged.  When the leader is off belay (more about this in a moment), I can unrig everything no matter how it was set up because my connection is independent of all the rigging.

At the sharp end, I do the same thing leading whenever it is secure enough, namely get in a good piece, clip to it with the tether, call "off belay" or, as you lads say, "safe," and carry on building and rigging the rest of the anchor.  With bolts this makes almost no difference, but if the anchor is built from trad placements, there is quite a bit of time savings having the leader building an anchor while the second is derigging one.  The test for this style of climbing is that as soon as the leader is on belay, the second is almost immediately ready to climb.

Obviously, this double tethering is less safe than waiting around for one anchor to be built and then the other one taken down, but the difference on long multipitch climbs is significant.  I've overtaken and passed parties who seemed to be climbing at the same speed as us but consumed more time at the belays, and in several cases we were down in the light and they had to descend in the dark, with all the extra risks and problems that can entail.

All things considered, these shortcuts are for experienced climbers on long multipitch climbs.  They have no real value on shorter routes, and on all routes newer climbers would be best advised to stick with the slower more secure methods.

 john arran 25 Oct 2019
In reply to rgold:

Double 'like'.

 PaulJepson 25 Oct 2019
In reply to rgold:

Trusting your life to a single piece of gear at every stance?

Shudder. 

5
 John Kelly 25 Oct 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

That's not the situation

you should be still attached to the wall with all the other kit placed by the leader. 

in addition, you only go to a single good piece if all other things are looking rosy

Caveat - you should probably have climbed together before

the risks are, in my view, well within the norm for trad climbing 

'best practice' - R Gold said it

1
 PaulJepson 25 Oct 2019
In reply to John Kelly:

It sounds a lot like it is the situation? If you're leading and you get to a stance, clip yourself to a single 'bomber' piece and then get taken off belay? Unless it's a 45m pitch and you're on 50m ropes you're going to take a massive fall if that piece fails.

Or am I misunderstanding?

 Simon Caldwell 25 Oct 2019
In reply to Misha:

> Obviously less of an issue if you are on a decent ledge but even then you’ve got cosmic events to consider - falling rocks, gear, sheep

Surely the risk of falling sheep etc means that you should get off the belay as soon as possible so you can move to avoid them?

 John Kelly 25 Oct 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

I thought we were talking about the belayer not the leader, OP - 'breaking down belay station'

 John Kelly 25 Oct 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Yes, them herdwicks will properly f*** you up 

Post edited at 09:00
 PaulJepson 25 Oct 2019
In reply to John Kelly:

I was replying to rgold who brought up leading: "At the sharp end, I do the same thing leading whenever it is secure enough, namely get in a good piece, clip to it with the tether, call "off belay" or, as you lads say, "safe," and carry on building and rigging the rest of the anchor. "

 rgold 25 Oct 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

> Trusting your life to a single piece of gear at every stance?

> Shudder. 


We do this every time we place a piece of protection after not having got any in for a while.  And in those cases the probability of falling is much greater.  Of course, if the leader can't tell good pro from bad pro in general or isn't sure in some particular case, they don't have to do this.  It's all about skill with gear and judgement.  That said, one typically looks for and usually manages to find two or three "bombproof" pieces for a belay anchor, in which case tethering to just one while standing on comfortable ground and placing the other(s) shouldn't be any kind of big deal.

The reality of trad climbing is that there are often places on a pitch where the leader would die if they fell.  In these circumstances, and they are pretty common, the party relies on the leader's judgement, skill, and experience to keep them safe, not on the presence of protection, which is unavailable.  Given that this reliance on the leader's ability not to fall is a part of almost every pitch, the sudden reticence to invoke that confidence at what is probably the easiest spot on the route makes little sense to me.

Post edited at 14:14
 PaulJepson 25 Oct 2019
In reply to rgold:

We're obviously climbing very different things because I could count on one hand the amount of times that it would have been real bad if I'd fallen off. 

To me, the belay is sacred. It doesn't matter how experienced me or my partner are, I wouldn't take one apart or get taken off the other until a suitable replacement was constructed. It is the ONE THING you simply have to rely on. If you put shit gear in on lead then that's on you but if you're not being 100% with belays then you're putting everyone in danger.

There's another thread up that had a story of a leader ripping every piece and half a belay during a fall. What if the team had been using the tactics some of you are talking about? Leader clips into the 'bomber' single piece and shouts "safe!" to commence building the rest of the belay. Meanwhile the second has started taking apart the belay below because it might save him 10 seconds over the course of an afternoon. Bomber piece rips. Leader takes monumental fall to the end of the rope (smashing themselves to pieces on the way down), rips out all the gear in between, and now everything is falling factor 2 onto a half-deconstructed belay. 

I'm a VS leader at best with a mere 3 years of climbing behind me and I know some of you are old boys who have been pulling hard since before I was born so I accept my words are worthless but that's me and I'm not willing to take those kind of risks and certainly wouldn't bring them up when someone has asked for 'best-practise'. 

I'm not trying to argue or say how it should be done, as it's down to each individual how they operate, so hopefully the stream of dislikes will be minimal. 

Post edited at 14:59
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 Misha 25 Oct 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

Agreed and very well put. 

 john arran 25 Oct 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

I suspect much of the difference of opinion on this thread comes from the false expectation that such a thing as 'best practice' (note spelling) exists. It doesn't. Or rather, it exists as a variety of 'good practice' advice suitable to different situations and different people. No one of these is always 'best'.

If I were advising climbers with limited experience, I would absolutely advise waiting until they're on belay before dismantling any of the belay. It's unlikely that time will be critical and the necessary judgement and confidence in that judgement may not yet have been developed.

If I were advising experienced climbers wanting to climb many pitches more efficiently, the advice would be that, once the leader is safe, it's entirely up to you to keep yourself safe until you're on belay, and that may allow scope for taking some or all of the belay out in the meantime.

Taking gear out while the leader is still climbing requires even more judgement but there are times when this too may be justified in the name of speed and efficiency, notably once the leader has placed plenty of gear that there's good reason to believe is bomber.

What I can't say, and I don't believe anyone can say, is that any of these approaches is absolutely right or absolutely wrong in all situations.

 Misha 25 Oct 2019
In reply to john arran:

Mostly agree, apart from taking gear out while the leader is still leading. That’s just wrong. Besides, why on earth would you do that? I don’t see the extra time saving vs waiting till the leader is safe. Unless you’re then moving together anyway but that’s a different kettle of fish.

 john arran 25 Oct 2019
In reply to Misha:

A fairly extreme example for illustration:

You arrive at a stance after climbing a hard pitch you know your second is likely to struggle on. You look for gear, fiddling in several so-so pieces you're not completely happy with, so you attach to them and look for more. You then notice a crack with perfect gear, so you slot in a couple of bomber pieces, attach to those too and start taking in.

Your mate leads the next, easy and very well protected pitch. It's getting dark and you're not sure about the descent. Once he's slammed in a few pieces he declares to be bomber and continues romping up, what could be wrong with taking out the poor, fiddly pieces in the belay, leaving the later bomber ones in place?

As I said, an extreme example, but climbing situations fall on a continuum.

 Misha 25 Oct 2019
In reply to john arran:

In your example, if I found bomber gear after placing some poor pieces, I would build the belay using only the bomber gear. The poor pieces could be left to remove later (possibly while belaying if within reach and safe to do so). If already incorporated in the belay, I would redo the belay as there’s no need to over complicate the belay with extra points, using up extra slings and/or rope. Whereas if I thought the poor gear is worth having anyway as a back up,  I would leave it in until the end.

Besides, how would you remove the poor pieces placed earlier if you placed them first? Whether you use the rope or a powerpoint, if you use those pieces they will play a part in equalising the belay. If you take them out, you will probably end up with an unequalised belay (and a load of slack at your end if using the rope).  It might work with some configurations but most of the time it won’t. Better to equalise on the good pieces and leave the poor ones out in the first place - assuming the good pieces are sufficient.

So your scenario is not very realistic. Hypothetically, you are right. In practice, the vast majority of the time it’s a no-no. As you say, experienced climbers can judge for themselves...

What strikes me about these types of thread is someone asks a reasonable question because they aren’t sure, which is probably because they aren’t very experienced. They then get a bewildering range or responses, from standard/good/best practice to higher risk / cutting corners strategies, which are only suitable for experienced climbers and then only in some situations. Now you’ve made it clear it’s not for the inexperienced - trouble is, people can skip that bit or overestimate their experience. I know it’s a discussion and a range of views will be aired. Just making an observation...

7
 GrahamD 25 Oct 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

Im talimg from this that you've never been racing an incoming storm ? In some situations speed is more important than belt and braces belays at all times. Horses for courses. 

 jimtitt 25 Oct 2019
In reply to Misha:

The OP wanted clarification of what they had read and we gave it. No views on it's wisdom, whether it was suitable for novices and the rest of the nannying pontification were asked for.

1
 PaulJepson 25 Oct 2019
In reply to GrahamD:

Extreme circumstances are a bit irrelevant to bring up though.

It's like if someone asked if it was alright to ab off a single, rusty peg in shit rock and I say no then you say "well I take it you've never dropped your entire rack in a remote corner of the world with no chance of rescue whilst halfway up a big wall with an electrical storm coming in and a partner in need of urgent medical attention and all there is is a single rusty peg in shit rock". 

I've been in some minging weather and have been forced off mountain routes but I guess nothing I would consider life-endangering, no, but I've already said I'm not an experienced climber. 

In that situation I would consider my options but that wasn't the OP's question. He was asking about best-practise, and in my opinion that means your default strategy, and my default strategy is getting home safely. 

Post edited at 22:04
1
 rgold 26 Oct 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

> Extreme circumstances are a bit irrelevant to bring up though.

Except, apparently, when they serve to make the point you want to make:

> Leader clips into the 'bomber' single piece and shouts "safe!" to commence building the rest of the belay. Meanwhile the second has started taking apart the belay below because it might save him 10 seconds over the course of an afternoon. Bomber piece rips. Leader takes monumental fall to the end of the rope (smashing themselves to pieces on the way down), rips out all the gear in between, and now everything is falling factor 2 onto a half-deconstructed belay. 

1
 PaulJepson 26 Oct 2019
In reply to rgold:

Not really the same, since we're talking act-of-God vs poor decision making. 

8
 jimtitt 26 Oct 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

> Not really the same, since we're talking act-of-God vs poor decision making. 


Your argument is pointless and was excluded in the OP. " ... as soon as it is safe to do so.....".

1
 PaulJepson 26 Oct 2019
In reply to jimtitt:

'As soon as it's safe to do so' is when you get a call of "on belay" from the leader.

As I said, I'm not saying there is a right or wrong, only what I do.

1
 jimtitt 26 Oct 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

> 'As soon as it's safe to do so' is when you get a call of "on belay" from the leader.

> As I said, I'm not saying there is a right or wrong, only what I do.


"Safe" is when the leader thinks so, "on belay" is when they have the followers rope in the belay device and is ready to belay them.

2
 PaulJepson 26 Oct 2019
In reply to jimtitt:

Well the 'safe to do so' in this case is referring to when to break down the belay, not when the leader thinks he's safe. And as I've said, in most cases I don't consider it safe to do so until I'm on belay (obvious exceptions such as being on a MASSIVE ledge). 

There's no point in arguing though, as 'safe to do so' is totally subjective. 

2
 Robert Durran 26 Oct 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

> 'As soon as it's safe to do so' is when you get a call of "on belay" from the leader.

"On belay" is a terrible climbing call; I genuinely don't know right now whether it means that the leader is attached safely to a belay or whether it means the leader has got the second on their belay plate. ie Does it mean "safe" or "climb when ready"? I think I have only ever heard it in the USA. Please don't import it here!

Edit: It is perhaps unfortunate that the word "belay" has come to mean two different things!

Post edited at 12:17
6
 jimtitt 26 Oct 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

> There's no point in arguing though, as 'safe to do so' is totally subjective. 

A subjective opinion made by the leader.

 Alex Riley 26 Oct 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

It means the second is being belayed, its not an uncommon climbing call.

 PaulJepson 26 Oct 2019
In reply to jimtitt:

When a leader calls "safe" it does not mean 'we are safe', it means 'am safe'. It could mean they've got to a massive ledge they're not going to fall off but haven't started constructing an anchor yet. It could mean they've got to a long scrambly top-out and want to be taken off belay to go and find an anchor. Is it 'safe' to start deconstructing your belay in those scenarios? 

When a leader calls "on belay, climb when ready" it means 'we are safe'. That's the only time when you know for sure that there is an appropriate replacement for the belay you're currently attached to.

And as for 'on belay' being used as a call, I didn't know that was strictly an American thing? From what I've seen they use it to mean 'I'm safe on the anchor' rather than how we use it. It's the call myself and any of my partners have always used "YOU'RE ON BELAY, *NAME*. CLIMB WHEN READY". 

2
 Robert Durran 26 Oct 2019
In reply to Alex Riley:

> It means the second is being belayed, its not an uncommon climbing call.

If it is becoming more common, that is most unfortunate, since it is clearly open to misinterpretation unless you are used to it. Does this mean that the formerly ubiquitous (in the UK) "climb when ready" is falling into misuse?

2
 PaulJepson 26 Oct 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

I've always used it in conjunction with. 

 Robert Durran 26 Oct 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

>  From what I've seen they use it to mean 'I'm safe on the anchor' rather than how we use it.

Well that proves my point then! 

1
 PaulJepson 26 Oct 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

Which one? That it has 2 different meanings? I don't think there's a danger of them being confused across the Atlantic really. 'On belay' means there is an anchor either way. 'Safe' doesn't necessarily. 

1
 Robert Durran 26 Oct 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

> Which one? That it has 2 different meanings?

That it is a terrible climbing call because it has two different meanings, both of which are in use apparently - given the obvious potential confusion, I'm not sure how anyone could defend its use; it really is asking for trouble!

Post edited at 12:42
2
 spenser 26 Oct 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

Climbing, particularly trad and alpine climbing requires good judgement in spades, this includes adjusting how you apply skills to suit objectives.

If I am climbing on a crag like Wildcat the first piece of my belay comes out after I have been told my leader is safe and then I can feel the ropes pulling on me indicating that I am on belay (ideally having heard that I am on belay but that's a nice to have sometimes when climbing on crags with overhangs, traffic noise, big seas, windy days etc). This encompasses most UK stuff with the exception of things on the bigger Scottish mountain crags or if you're doing link ups. I did 27 pitches on Tryfan (admittedly well within my capability) including the intial walk in and the final walk down as well as descending between routes in 14 and a bit hours with a competent partner without needing to deviate from this and I am certainly no rock god or very speedy on the walking front.

If I'm doing a long route with lots of pitches and I am sat on a ledge where I would be willing to move about unroped on a scramble and my leader has called down that they are safe and I know there is bomber gear on the pitch I will willingly remove all but the last piece from the belay before they declare me to be on belay. This is a minor relaxation of safety measures on technical ground to facilitate more speed which might mean you don't have to navigate complex ground in the dark or that you can catch the last lift down (potentially avoiding an unplanned bivvy or walking down dangerous terrain). 

If moving from pitched climbing to moving together I will typically call that we are moving together about 2m before the rope runs out and then start to pull out the pieces of gear to pay out the rope in the anchor gradually prior to starting to move off. This tells the leader that they are no longer being belayed conventionally and that they may need to adjust their pace of movement to match mine (i.e. don't go jogging along the ridge if they welded a nut in place 5m into the pitch).

If you're going to deviate from the practice described in my first paragraph it's best to discuss with your partner (if you've never climbed with someone before it's best to discuss with them full stop).

If climbing on bolts I'll leave everything in place until I'm on belay as the time saving is minimal. The major potential for loss when trad climbing would be trying to hammer out a welded in piece of gear so if things are going to come out in a straightforward fashion that affects things too.

Also, at a rough guess you are now arguing with more than 150 decades of experience between Jim, Rob and rgold...

Post edited at 12:58
 jimtitt 26 Oct 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

> Which one? That it has 2 different meanings? I don't think there's a danger of them being confused across the Atlantic really. 'On belay' means there is an anchor either way. 'Safe' doesn't necessarily. 


The OP is reading an American instructional book.

 Robert Durran 26 Oct 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

> I don't think there's a danger of them being confused across the Atlantic really.

Apart from the fact that UK climbers visit the US and climb with US climbers and vice versa, it is rarely the case that any US usage stays on that side of the Atlantic for long.

1
 PaulJepson 26 Oct 2019
In reply to jimtitt:

Well I guess I'll have to correct every single person I've climbed with ever then.

I don't see the problem with "you're on belay, climb when ready". I'll be sure to clarify if I'm ever climbing with a yank. 

 John Kelly 26 Oct 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

I think only 2 calls and a bit of patience are needed

'safe' that means leader has arrived at the stance and is not going to fall off - so you take them off the plate

'climb' that means a sufficient belay has been constructed, the rope is being controlled and you can launch up the route 

 PaulJepson 26 Oct 2019
In reply to John Kelly:

I'm a big fan of having elaborate calls. They have a nice rhythm and tune to them and are less likely to get confused.

Unless you're on a deserted crag, "safe!" could be anyone.  If it's noisy, windy, you're out of eye-line then "Take!", "Dave!", "Shit!" or any such could be mis-heard. 

"OKAAAAY ALAN, I AM SAAAAAAAFE!" or "OKAAAAY DAVE, YOU'RE ON BELAY, CLIMB WHEN READAAAAAAAAAAY!" are not getting mistaken. 

2
 Robert Durran 26 Oct 2019
In reply to John Kelly:

> I think only 2 calls and a bit of patience are needed

> 'safe' that means leader has arrived at the stance and is not going to fall off - so you take them off the plate

> 'climb' that means a sufficient belay has been constructed, the rope is being controlled and you can launch up the route 

Absolutely.

1
 bpmclimb 26 Oct 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

> I don't see the problem with "you're on belay, climb when ready". I'll be sure to clarify if I'm ever climbing with a yank. 

I  think the point is that "on belay" is ambiguous, and therefore needs the further clarification of "climb when ready". When you call both phrases, the first phrase is redundant: it isn't communicating any useful information .... the seconder already knows that the leader is safe because he/she got the "safe" call, and "climb when ready" covers the second bit. 

Cluttering up climbing calls with unnecessary extra words is potentially dangerous: we want a set of short, simple, unambiguous calls (which don't sound too much like each other). You can get away with all sorts of extra words when you're standing next to each other on the ground, or even top to bottom on a short pitch with good lines of sight (and sound), but what about when you're way up around a corner or over a bulge on a big, windy sea cliff? 

Post edited at 13:55
2
 PaulJepson 26 Oct 2019
In reply to bpmclimb:

In that scenario a short, easily-mistaken or missed word can be just as dangerous. I aint changing it.

 bpmclimb 26 Oct 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

> In that scenario a short, easily-mistaken or missed word can be just as dangerous. I aint changing it.

Suit yourself! You're wrong, actually - but since you've been stubbornly defending your case against the opinion of many climbers much more experienced than yourself, I hardly expect you to agree. It'll be interesting to hear what you think when you've actually been in that scenario enough times to make a meaningful judgement.

3
 PaulJepson 26 Oct 2019
In reply to spenser:

> Also, at a rough guess you are now arguing with more than 150 decades of experience between Jim, Rob and rgold...

I'm not arguing with anyone, I'm saying what I do and why; they're saying what they do and why. If they want to tell me anything I do is wrong or unsafe then that's up to them....but it isn't. 

2
 jimtitt 26 Oct 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

> Well I guess I'll have to correct every single person I've climbed with ever then.

> I don't see the problem with "you're on belay, climb when ready". I'll be sure to clarify if I'm ever climbing with a yank. 


Perhaps you should broaden your circle a bit, you'ĺl find the rest of the world is ticking differently. If 'off belay' means you are no longer being belayed the 'on belay' means the opposite NOT that the leader is safe.

 spenser 26 Oct 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

The issue is that they are flagging scenarios in which what you are saying IS unsafe.

If you progress onto alpinism you'll find that bits of that textbook practice of yours are left by the wayside (as described in my earlier post), simply because they don't add much to your safety and getting caught in an afternoon storm is going to do a lot against your safety.

In reply to BalintSamad:

I dislike the term "best practice" but keeping calls to a minimum with clear concise words is definitely the best method.  Single words were OK when crags were less crowded but adding a name could be considered necessary at times. I've witnessed accidents when one belayer gave slack at an inappropriate moment when a nearby climber on another route asked for it. I've also seen situations when "take in slack" resulted in the opposite of what was intended because only the "slack" bit was heard. The most amusing is seeing a climber frozen to the belay for hours because they did not hear any calls and despite the rope continually pulling at them.

Al

 PaulJepson 26 Oct 2019
In reply to jimtitt:

> Perhaps you should broaden your circle a bit, you'ĺl find the rest of the world is ticking differently. If 'off belay' means you are no longer being belayed the 'on belay' means the opposite NOT that the leader is safe.

I never said it didn't? That's how I use it. It's the Americans that say 'on belay' to mean safe. 

1
 jimtitt 26 Oct 2019

I'm going for a beer.

2
 Robert Durran 26 Oct 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

> I never said it didn't? That's how I use it. It's the Americans that say 'on belay' to mean safe.

The fact that everyone is now confused about what everyone else means by it simply further reinforces my point that it is a terrible climbing call.

1
 john arran 26 Oct 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

It's a long while since I climbed in the US but I distinctly remember leaders , once clipped in, shouting "Off belay!", meaning "Take me off". Then once they'd finished taking in and put you on a plate they would shout "On belay!", meaning "Climb when you're ready".

Would be interesting to know if that's changed as it seems to be the only plausible usage that makes sense and isn't ambiguous.

 Robert Durran 26 Oct 2019
In reply to john arran:

> It's a long while since I climbed in the US but I distinctly remember leaders , once clipped in, shouting "Off belay!", meaning "Take me off". Then once they'd finished taking in and put you on a plate they would shout "On belay!", meaning "Climb when you're ready".

> Would be interesting to know if that's changed as it seems to be the only plausible usage that makes sense and isn't ambiguous.

You may well be right - I can't rermeber (it was PaulJepson who claimed otherewise), but I do think I've only heard the word "belay" being used in calls at all by US climbers (though it seems it's use has now spread here). But I don't find this consistent - if "on belay" means "I've put you on the plate" then "off belay" ought to mean "I've taken you off the plate" (I might shout "you're off" once a leader has shouted "safe" and I've taken them off the plate).

Anyway, the inescapable fact that the word "belay" has two distinct meanings when climbing means that it makes sense to avoid it altogether in climbing calls.


 

Post edited at 20:05
2
 Rick51 26 Oct 2019
In reply to BalintSamad:

"tied on, taking in"

pull in all slack

remove belay

"That's me"

"when yer ready"

"climbing"

"ok"

... not a "belay" in sight

1
In reply to Robert Durran:

For longer climbs in wind etc the best climbing calls are no calls at all. A very simple system of tugs works far better. Stripping down the belay is a question of judgement, watching the subtle movements of the rope etc. (Of course, in situations that are unclear one leaves a substantial part of the belay intact. But all those runners between the leader and the second generally render the situation pretty safe.) Most of the time, on long routes the second has the thing almost totally stripped down by the time the rope comes tight on his/her waist so that she/he can start climbing immediately.

1
 rgold 27 Oct 2019
In reply to john arran:

> It's a long while since I climbed in the US but I distinctly remember leaders , once clipped in, shouting "Off belay!", meaning "Take me off". Then once they'd finished taking in and put you on a plate they would shout "On belay!", meaning "Climb when you're ready".

> Would be interesting to know if that's changed as it seems to be the only plausible usage that makes sense and isn't ambiguous.

It hasn't changed and has been this way in the US for more than 50 years.  I'd just add that "off belay" (some climbers have abbreviated this to just "off!") means that the leader judges he is no longer in need of a belay.  Typically that occurs when the leader is clipped in to something but not necessarily, although I can't say I've ever heard a leader call "off belay" in mid-pitch.  (Actually, I do know something pretty close: when Pete Cleveland made the first ascent of Super Pin in the Needles in South Dakota, he was well into ground fall territory with more climbing to go and no possible protection to be had.  He instructed his belayer to drop the rope and walk out to the road where the photo opportunities would be better...)

Post edited at 01:13
 PaulJepson 27 Oct 2019
In reply to Rick51:

I'm pretty surprised by the reaction to what I thought were pretty standard calls in the UK. Certainly everyone I've ever climbed with, including the old boys has been:

Leader upon reaching the belay: 'Okay *name*, I'm Safe'

Second:'Okay *name*, you're off belay'

Leader takes in slack: 'okay *name*,  you're on belay, climb when ready'

Second: 'Climbing!'

Never had anyone say anything otherwise, and I've climbed with a few different people and in a mountaineering club, so would have though any inconsistency would have been highlighted (hundreds of trad routes). 

I'm happy with the system I have with my partners anyway. I'm fussy about who I climb with (especially trad), so it's not like I'm going to have a big mixup with a randomer and end up having an accident anyway.

Post edited at 01:14
 pass and peak 27 Oct 2019
In reply to Everyone!

Wow busy afternoon on this thread yesterday, was it raining down South? Anyway the suns shining today so perhaps you'll all be a bit more chilled!  FWIW I've read the whole thread this morning, and from what I can see, with the exception of one post, your ALL right! It's just about you and your partners experience and the circumstances prevailing at the time. Now I'm out to get some fresh air, happy climbing everyone and remember those words of best practice "Don't fall off"!

M

1
 jimtitt 27 Oct 2019
In reply to pass and peak:

Well the confusion/ debate has two aspects. The first is Paul interchanged the meanings; rgold wrote that when he had a good piece he calls "off belay" (to tell the second to take the rope out of the device) or as we say  "safe". Paul understands that Americans call "on belay" to mean what rgold wrote. This incorrect and lead to Roberts understandable concern.

The other aspect is we think when the leader says they are safe you can take them off-belay and depending on the circumstances start dismantling your belay, Paul feels it is nescessary to wait for the leaders belay to be completed  and the second to be on belay BEFORE starting to strip the belay. Paul can do what he likes BUT the question was not about this, it was how to go about  the best way to strip the belay in the first situation.

 HeMa 27 Oct 2019
In reply to john arran:

You remember correctly. 
 

off belay = safe (you can now stop belaying and take the rope out/off the belay device)

on belay = the anchor is complete, I’ve taken in all the rope I can and I’m now belaying you

For the record, I generally use Safe (one pull from the rope) and On BeLay (three pulls) If using English as the common language. 
 

As for best practices, Yes if the gear is good I start de-riggin’ the acnhor as soon as I Hear SAFE, provided the gear is good. Much like rgold described. That way I’m ready to start climbing as soon as the rope comes taunt and 3 tugs or on belay. Then I take out the last piece and start climbing (often even leaving the gear Clovehitched to the rope If not on a ledge. 
 

but If the gear is crap or I’n on a giant ledge, I’ll adjust accordingly. 

 john arran 27 Oct 2019
In reply to HeMa:

Strangely enough, although I'm usually quite diligent in resisting American terminology, I find myself often shouting "Off belay" instead of "Safe", the latter being far too easily confused with "Take" if not heard clearly. The emphasis on the word Belay makes it quite clear where you are and what's happening.

However, even if I do sometimes use "On belay", I'll usually prefer (or add) "When you're ready" for greater clarity.

 rgold 27 Oct 2019
In reply to john arran:

I find that the profusion of calls is as likely to lead to confusion as not.  With partners I'm familiar with, we typically use just two calls, both from the leader: "off belay" to indicate the second can stop belaying the leader, and "climb" indicating the leader has set up the belay and the second can climb as soon as they are ready (which, if the climb is a long one, should be immediately).  The second might also shout "climbing," usually when there has been a substantial delay and there is a perceived need to jolt the leader out of whatever reverie they have fallen into. 

These simple calls are buttressed by the following rope-handling conventions.  After completing the belay anchor and getting in position to belay, the leader pulls up all the slack.  This by itself tells the second that their belay is imminent.  Then, to avoid a premature start by the second, the leader immediately lets ten feet or so back down.  This confirms the second's assumption that the belay is coming while making it clear the time to climb has not yet arrived.  The leader gets the rope into the belay device and then takes the released slack up again, this time with a belay in force.    This is the moment when the leader shouts "climb," but with the understandings just enumerated, the second knows what's up even if the leader's voice is drowned out by the sounds of the rapids in the canyon below.  They are also not going to mistakenly start up because they heard the belay calls from another party if the rope actions don't confirm their impression.  After that, the usual conventions hold, which is if the second climbs up a few feet and the slack isn't taken in, then something has gone wrong and it is appropriate to step back down,

1
 John Kelly 27 Oct 2019
In reply to rgold:

I love that whole rope thing - the steady progress through the plate, a pause at the crux, oscillating as the clove hitches are formed and drop into the belaying carabiners- a silent communication, confirming any shout.

Post edited at 20:04
 rgold 28 Oct 2019
In reply to rgold:

> With partners I'm familiar with, we typically use just two calls, both from the leader: "off belay" to indicate the second can stop belaying the leader, and "climb" indicating the leader has set up the belay and the second can climb as soon as they are ready (which, if the climb is a long one, should be immediately). 

Oops, it's really three calls most of the time.  I forgot that it is really helpful for the second to shout "belay off" so that the leader knows they can pull up all the slack unimpeded.


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