Biggest Sandbag on Grit

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 JoeFoster59 16 Feb 2020

Just a rainy Sunday musing. What’s the biggest sandbag on grit? Routes or boulders. Strawberry’s at Curbar has to be up there as does the Oedipus Traverse at Froggatt

Post edited at 11:01
 Dan Arkle 16 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

Chequers Crack at HVS

Or Easy Pickings at E2

 McHeath 16 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

Off topic already, but just another rainy Sunday musing... are sandbags at Harrison's called gritbags? 

 ashtond6 16 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

I thought Oedipus trav was ok with beta.

masochism HVS/E3

London wall

National Acrobat 

Linkline

the Toy

Unprintable

1
 toad 16 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

Anything at black Rocks

1
 trouserburp 16 Feb 2020
In reply to toad:

Anything in Yorkshire

1
 chadogrady 16 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

Another vote for Masochism and Unprintable 

 TobyA 16 Feb 2020
In reply to ashtond6:

> the Toy

I seconded the Toy cleanly, including getting my mate's gear out (a number of pieces of which he had sat or fallen on!). I was quite chuffed at that because I didn't think I could climb 5c.   Is it the E1 or the 5c that you think is the sandbag.

From personal battle, I'd suggestTower Crack (HVS 5b) - I think it was HVS 5a when I tried it, and despite having successfully onsighted quite a few grit HVSs that summer I got totally shut down on this - the "ledge" (a polished sloping shelf) at the top of the lower crack seemed completely impossible!

3
 Jon Stewart 16 Feb 2020
In reply to TobyA:

> I seconded the Toy cleanly... Is it the E1 or the 5c that you think is the sandbag.

The E1. Sustained 5c for 8m ain't E1!

 Offwidth 16 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

Masochism which is an HVS that is possibly even E3  (that is excluding anything really obscure and unchecked). I've worked Easy Picking and it was at my technical limit so it's not more than a grade out.  The Toy and Chequers Crack are possibly just half a grade wrong.

I've helped 'out' hundreds of grit sandbags.. the two biggest were Frigging Saw  (S to E3) and Straight Ahead (Diff to VS)

Post edited at 12:29
1
 ashtond6 16 Feb 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

"I've worked Easy Picking and it was at my technical limit so it's not more than a grade out."

this is probably correct, however this just highlights how crap the grading system is

Post edited at 12:35
1
 Jon Stewart 16 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

> Just a rainy Sunday musing. What’s the biggest sandbag on grit? Routes or boulders. Strawberry’s at Curbar has to be up there as does the Oedipus Traverse at Froggatt

Didn't think there was much wrong with those two - although there's definitely been days when Strawberries has seemed harder than it should be (not not on others).

For bouldering, an absolute horror I've tried a million times without success is Hovis Super Direct (f6C). Might be alright at 7A, but it was well out of line at 6C.  Shipley Glen is a great place to get cut down to size. Some of the problems kind of are graded correctly, once you know how, but they're really tricksy and generally high too. One of many reasonably graded problems I never managed (and I lived in walking distance for a year) was the horrific, spine-smashing Manson's Must (f6B). Must we really?

 Jon Stewart 16 Feb 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

> I've worked Easy Picking

It's the hardest route I've ever done. Look at this way: if it was a longer route which had the same boulder problem start, then bit of easy climbing leading to the second crux move, and same pumpy finish, then it would be E4 6b. But because it's shorter, it's harder: you have to place gear immediately after the boulder problem and do the second crux from an unrested position. Short routes with hard moves at the bottom get lower grades, because gritstone grading is bollox, but they're not easier than longer routes. A longer route is easier to protect and gives more opportunity to reverse and rest before hard moves.

 deacondeacon 16 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

Green crack, Masochism, the untouchable and ramshaw crack, all at the same crag. 

All nails and I like this sort of thing! 

 Mark Kemball 16 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

There may be a few in this ticklist - https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=3375 or you could suggest a few additions...

 Michael Gordon 16 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

Anything at Ravensheugh, 8 minute Crack (or whatever it's called) in particular.

 ianstevens 16 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

Anything on the egg at Robin Hoods

OP JoeFoster59 16 Feb 2020
In reply to ianstevens:

I didn’t think egg arete was that bad just kind of balancey but great either way. The Cube over at the roaches is quite tricky for 6B when compared to Staffordshire flyer. Morells Wall at Almscliffe is pretty stout for 5+

Post edited at 13:34
 overdrawnboy 16 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

Left Eliminate and Insanity (if you're over 6') and Fern Groove at Stanage.

 robate 16 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

I can't reply on asthtond6 for some reason, but National Acrobat was allegedly e4 when I did it, this is years ago, and it has probably the hardest sequence I ever did on it and honestly thought it was British 7a, not that I ever did anything else of that grade to compare.

 Mick Ward 16 Feb 2020
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Surely the least one could reasonably give Easy Picking is E3 6b? I wouldn't argue with E4 6b. Harder to lead than Rat Scabies, for instance. Far better protected but technically comparable with Greedy Pig.

E2 6a? Steve's little joke on the rest of us poor sods. These days he's probably insisting that Fiesta and Zulu are 'steady'.

Mick

2
 GrahamD 16 Feb 2020
In reply to TobyA:

Tower Crack came to mind for me as well. But then its grit HVS and they should be hard

In reply to JoeFoster59:

One from history - Helfenstein's Struggle on Stanage was given Diff originally - now HVD and still getting Severe from some people. The guidebook entry included the comment 'History records that Helfenstein struggled in vain'

 Cake 16 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

Many good answers that I concur with:

Tower crack, Stanage (Toby, I'm pretty sure you saw me having a nightmare on it and you said it was okay for you!)

Toy (recurring rotator cuff injury since)

Chequers Crack

Easy pickings did go okay second time around, but it's harder than E2.

Unprintable I've probably failed on more than anything besides Strawberries, Curbar.

Strawberries

Egg arete at Cratcliffe I can't do either.

The mantel right of green traverse is my offering.

 Offwidth 16 Feb 2020
In reply to Jon Stewart:

So what? ... UKC logbooks has it as E2/ E3 border and mid 6b.

Easy Picking (E2 6b)

Maybe all this other evidence means you're comparatively shit at those sorts of moves. It's E3 6b tops with a hard-to-spot-the-sequence f6B bouldering start and its given E2 6b and top of that adjectival grade in the graded list in the definitive (unless an edge has broken in the last few years and it's now E3 6c). Whichever way you look at it, compared to Masochism (and probably hundreds of obscure grit sandbags) it's a baby of the type (unless you really think its hard E4 and 6c) as all the biggest trad sandbags on grit will be at least 2 whole grade bands out. Grit grading isn't bollox but it is based on ground-up tactics on such tricky bouldery starts.

Your also wrong on the description of climbing the Toy (like Toby I can't climb sustained 5c... its sustained up to 5b until a 5c move just below the top that hard to spot onsight). It's top of the E1 graded list in the definitive  but I think it's solid E2...still far from biggest sandbag on grit territory.

Egg Arete is also not a sandbag but it's much easier in cold conditions.

The Unit boulder comp on Friday, reminded me how shockingly bad most strong modern indoor climbers are on crack technique.  Number 16 involves a slightly flared and greasy 5bish hand jamming crack only a handful of the 50 or so competitors jammed it properly.

Post edited at 18:02
10
 Offwidth 16 Feb 2020
In reply to keith-ratcliffe:

Squeeze chimneys are a cheat really as it mainly depends on if you can fit through and there is an outside line at S for Helfensteins.

2
In reply to Offwidth:

Yes - I agree. I did it when I was slimmer than I am now and found it Ok for VDiff. I just love the guidebook entry.

 TobyA 16 Feb 2020
In reply to GrahamD:

> Tower Crack came to mind for me as well. But then its grit HVS and they should be hard

I fell off about halfway up so have no idea if I was even at the hardest bit! I fell off the crux of Terrazza Crack (HVS 5b) as well, but pulled back on and did the moves and topped out second go (never did go back and lead it cleanly from ground though), whilst with Tower Crack I tried numerous times and just kept slithering off until it seemed embarrassingly pointless to keep trying.

 Michael Gordon 16 Feb 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

But Jon actually climbs those grades. How is someone whose top lead grade is E2 (if correct) qualified to comment?

 Tom Last 16 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

Masochism. Prouder of this than other E3 onsights  

I thought The Toy was hard. E2 5c maybe? 

Thought Strawberries was ok really. 

 Sam Beaton 16 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

How big are your fingers? I found the Oedipus traverse fine for the grade, but I have small hands and could get my fingers right into the slots

 Lankyman 16 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

It has to be Zarke (HVS 5a) HVS? My @rse!

 Dave Garnett 16 Feb 2020
In reply to Dan Arkle:

> Chequers Crack at HVS

It’s not really that the moves are so hard, it’s just nasty and sharp and more pain than is worthwhile for an HVS!

 Reach>Talent 16 Feb 2020
In reply to Tom Last:

Masochism is desperate, but is it harder then Millenium Falcon? 

Of the routes I have failed miserably on I would definitely say Masochism was the furthest from going but I don't know how much of that is just down to hand size?

 BnB 16 Feb 2020
In reply to TobyA:

I’ve seconded Tower Crack without drama, which means it is bog-standard HVS as I usually cry on E1s (except slabs which I quite like).

3
 Andy Hardy 16 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

Beech Nut (E1 5c)#overview

Never seems to have a queue, despite it's modest grade...

OP JoeFoster59 16 Feb 2020
In reply to Sam Beaton:

Average size fingers I just found the hanging around finding feet a bit of a challenge on the arms well for a 6b 

 John Gresty 16 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

I seem to remember a starred VS at Wharncliffe as one of the biggest grit sandbags I have come across, unfortunately I cannot remember its name. It shut down both of us on a lead and struggled to top rope it when we both easily leading at that grade.

'Crack and corner' Stanage and 'Diamond Crack' Froggatt on the same wet weekend 50 years ago, both V Diff at the time, taught me a lot.

John

 Tom Last 16 Feb 2020
In reply to Reach>Talent:

I think they’re about the same in fairness. Masochism harder, maybe either end of E2 5b? 

I concede MF is probably not HVS  

 Munch 16 Feb 2020
 Graeme Hammond 16 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

Few thoughts on some of the routes on this thread and probably not totally popular

Masochism (E1 5b) yes the first crack is steep and hard but at the top exit using the good ledge on the RHS rather than trying to climb the crack direct. This is super well protected followed by a massive rest before the actually quite easy upper crack. Traditional/jamming climbing but only one move well protected move exiting onto the first ledge does not equal E3. Rather pissed off I was not climbing well that day it went 2nd go. Would probably grade E1 5c so hardly a big sandbag.

The Toy (E1 5c) yes it's hard, but again it is only hard for a few meters with excellent gear (you can get fairly far and with a decent wire before it gets more difficult), and the moves whilst thin are obvious straight forward so I felt the 5c was more for strength/small holds than technicality. Not long enough/dangerous or difficult to work out to warrant a higher grade. top end of E1 is a good place to leave it. 

Easy Picking (E2 6b) feels very tough but the landing zone for the bottom boulder problem is reasonable and can be dynoed to good gear before 2nd crux which is very well protected if you can't do it static. Compare with Rat Scabies also 6b but but E3 which has a much higher bouldering start which i won't want to do without mats! I think the E2 6b grade reflects the climbing well ie super safe but completely nails. Also compare with the boggatt again a nails E2 6b boulder problem crux (possible gear but blocks a hold) with a poorer landing but easier VS climbing above and it seems comparable. Fo

The Unprintable (E1 5b) just use a knee when it gets to the alkward bit everyone seems to find really hard and it's not actually that bad. Super well protected, even if a little alkward it's miles off being as hard as the dangler next to it. Traditional safe but well protected jamming E1, basically all over after the well protected hard bit.

Figging saw, the one at Wharncliffe I don't know of any others but has been E3 for ages? The 89 guide gives it E3 (it was done it 83) is the centre of the wall left of sidewinder (bizarre as there isn't really a wall here and is easy ground). The 2005 (also E3) says the centre of the wall up and right of sidewinder, a variation from sidewinder to himmelswillen. The notes from when might have done it: The E3 Line must either be a bullshit eliminate up wall to the left of the arête eliminating both the arête and avoiding the HS to the left as per the BMC guide (which has no topo) though it mentions going into Himmelswillen so still confusing (hence the dagger symbol in the guide?) or seriously over graded/non existent. Climbed as per the latest Rockfax guide "The roof and blunt arête" which is good climbing over the overhang on the arête but is around E1 5b but actually quite good.

Linklime - is this a typo? Don't know this one.

Tower crack, well protected but steep jamming with some rests, not too technical so HVS is fair.

Zarke (HVS 5a) now this did feel desperate and not well protected, bad day or way this E2!

Ravensheugh Crag now everything we climbed there felt proper hard Baluster Crack (HVS 5b) makes Masochism look soft!!!!

 dinodinosaur 17 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

Desperation (E1 6a)

That is all

 Offwidth 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Graeme Hammond:

I respectfully disagree with you on Masochism... it's stopped or caused real struggles for good low extreme crack climbers who helped elsewhere on BMC guidebook work (as per Unprintable and other old top end E1 beasts). I'm not claiming its E3 but others did, and it seems to me to be at least solid E2 from the average. Ramshaw checking was a brutal experience, for the climbing and some of the locals' humour, albeit we did help get a E1 downgraded... Alcatraz.

I've checked my old notes and I was mistaken on Friggin Saw.... that is indeed an eliminate up route. The Severe that we upgraded was the '89 Stanage guide variation on Sidewinder: a traverse into Himelswillen at half height (we said E2!?). Whancliffe had a tradition of sandbags and some real nasty ones remained in the '89 guide.

 yoshi.h 17 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

Strawberry's is easy, prove me wrong.

 Mick Ward 17 Feb 2020
In reply to dinodinosaur:

Didn't Desperation used to be given 5c? Or am I simply getting more forgetful?

Certainly agree the start's 6a (harder for the short). Bit of a trick move though, however you do it, and quickly eases.

Mick

OP JoeFoster59 17 Feb 2020
In reply to yoshi.h:

Maybe it’s knacky but I found it quite hard for the grade I imagine if you know what your doing and have some good beta it’s not to bad. I just personally found it quite hard for the grade 

 Offwidth 17 Feb 2020
In reply to dinodinosaur:

A typical, almost grade standard, technical top-end E1 grit micro-route.

6
 Mick Ward 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

> A typical, almost grade standard, technical top-end E1 grit micro-route.

For some bizarre reason, this reminds me of:

'Just Mild Very Severe... on one move only' (Menlove Edwards)

Mick

1
 Offwidth 17 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

Bouldering grades are for the easiest way... not for the flash attempt. My maxim was always if a problem feels way too easy for the grade it probably is (unless morphology is unusually suited), but if a problem feels way too hard for a grade the way being tried is most likely not the easiest way. On the other hand those trackside problems are sadly wearing fast.

 Tigger 17 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

Elegy (E2 5c) at the Roaches felt out there for the grade, especially as the gear that protects the crux has been known to rip.

Maupassant (HVS 5a) tricky from memory

 Offwidth 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Mick Ward:

Such anal delving into the detail of grades should seem like an echo!

Within the guidebook teams I worked in we tended to hold a line on safe top-end classic routes to stop grade creep.... however at some point trying to assess average skills for increasingly unpopular technique will need to lead to a shift (as it very much has already for wide cracks). I can jam well for my lowly ability but even I find grit jamming cracks tougher for the grade than most other similarly graded routes. 

2
 Offwidth 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Tigger:

Maupassant is a contender (with Sorrel's Sorrow) for the easiest well protected classic HVS at Curbar! Both around the middle of the Froggatt guide HVS graded list

Beta alert....it can feel tough if you miss that you can layback the top.

2
 yoshi.h 17 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

knacky doesn't mean it's hard though. I don't think it deserves a lick above 6b+!

In reply to JoeFoster59:

This thread requires a new thread - “most overgraded grit ‘sandbag’”. The majority of the suggestions on this thread are ridiculous; they simply amount to the poster saying ‘I can’t jam’.

Ramshaw Crack, for instance, is one of the easiest E4’s in the country. Masochism was fine at stiff HVS before its upgrade to low end E1, at the same time as the even easier Imposition was upgraded to E2. Easy Pickings is exactly what gritstone E2 6b is supposed to be like, and so on.

I have long limbs and the bicep strength of a new born baby - if I were making a list the top three would be Rat Scabies (low E5), King Kong (mid E5) and most of all Stormbringer (I don’t understand how this is even physically possible, although my leader had little trouble).

On a more serious note, I offer Flesh and Blood, sympathetically described to me as ‘oh yes, that 10-foot wall on jugs at Stanage North’ by a friend after I failed on it repeatedly before being shut down by darkness on a day when I had climbed one E4 and soloed a number of other routes supposedly harder than F&B. And also some HVS 6a at Burbage called something like All Stars Goal, which felt about Font 7b to me, not that I should be offering a grade since I could never do it.

While I’m ranting, anyone who thinks Desperation is any kind of sandbag should come back after doing Fidget at Curbar.

jcm

6
OP JoeFoster59 17 Feb 2020
In reply to yoshi.h:

Fair enough maybe we need a list of problems that feel like sandbags at first but once you have the knack are actually alright

 yoshi.h 17 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

yeah, would also be good to list all the softest problems on grit so I can update my to do list.

 ebdon 17 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

It's always intresting how you're going on the day affects these things, I found desperation straightforward at 5c but I was having a good day and it suited me, although I've subsequently failed to solo it without the incuberance of gear. Conversely I found elegy terrifying with sweaty hands on a hot day although I knew deep down the climbing was steady.

No ones mentioned silica at stannage yet although I see rockfax has it as e3 now which is probably fair.

 Mick Ward 17 Feb 2020
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

 

> ... Rat Scabies (low E5)...

Comparable to Pebble Mill?  Surely not.

I remember being belayed on Rat Scabies by a guy I'd met on a Master's course. He'd never climbed or belayed before. The top wall was very green and, just before pressing on, I looked down at him for reassurance. He seemed pretty vacant. Told me afterwards he was out of his head on acid.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

Obviously not. It’s the mantel. I can’t do them.

Do I have the right route? Some E3 with a mantel on towards the far end of Curbar.

jcm

 JimHolmes69 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Lankyman:

The move on Zarke was the crux move on finger tip control for me and that is e4 5c so Zarke has always been harder than hvs. Next to it is first finale which is a gift at e1. But there are lots of tough routes in Lancashire quarries but thar what makes them so good. 

 Mick Ward 17 Feb 2020
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Yep, an odd move - a bit of a press, a bit of a mantle? Long time ago.

I seem to remember King Kong being a real nose grinder. An Al Parker special.  Haven't done Stormbringer but always heard it was unutterably grim. Think Pete Bivens did the crux mantle in the 1950s. In so, respect!

Mick

1
 Rob Gillespie 17 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

Pod Crack (E1 6a) when it was HVS 5b is one that always sticks in my mind as the biggest sandbag I’ve come across. 

Although Hen cloud and Ramshaw have there fare share of vs’s that take you by surprise. 

 Tigger 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

In was an early lead for me and the top was fine the initial corner just felt awkward however i tried it.

 Tigger 18 Feb 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

How about Matinee (HVS 5b) then?

 ashtond6 18 Feb 2020
In reply to Graeme Hammond:

> Few thoughts on some of the routes on this thread and probably not totally popular

man who climbs predominantly on grit thinks they aren't sandbags...  

what grade would they get in Spain or Wales? 

 mark s 18 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

I don't think masochism is a massive sandbag. E1 at the most,it is over very quick. I did it on a brown Whillans day and cant remember any issues.

I once went to solo green crack at Ramshaw, I backed off and led it. that was tough for an easy route.

 Si dH 18 Feb 2020
In reply to Graeme Hammond:

> Few thoughts on some of the routes on this thread and probably not totally popular

> Masochism (E1 5b) yes the first crack is steep and hard but at the top exit using the good ledge on the RHS rather than trying to climb the crack direct. This is super well protected followed by a massive rest before the actually quite easy upper crack. Traditional/jamming climbing but only one move well protected move exiting onto the first ledge does not equal E3. Rather pissed off I was not climbing well that day it went 2nd go. Would probably grade E1 5c so hardly a big sandbag.

I onsighted the bottom (climbing the crack) and fell off the top half first time. Agree with your grading overall though. 

There are some good candidates up on Kinder. The biggest sandbag I ever tried was Brother's Eliminate (E1 5b) (used to be HVS.)  And - I haven't done this one - didn't Ashop Crack (E2 5b) used to get VS in the first rockfax? 

Post edited at 04:05
 Sean Kelly 18 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

Back in the day Blue Lights at Wimberry was a solid VS but now still a grim struggle at E15b!

 Michael Hood 18 Feb 2020
In reply to Mick Ward:

I think he used tension to reach the mantleshelf - which is quite surprising because that's not too bad - but did the actual mantle free - which is on my lead "come back and show it who's boss" list and is likely to stay there 😁

 Red Rover 19 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

Most things at Brimham Rocks.

1
 Offwidth 19 Feb 2020
In reply to Sean Kelly:

Blue Lights and Freddies Finale are still HVS in the definitive (not even the hardest in the graded list). As per Matinee above there is a sort of distorted logic to these safe brutes providing they are internally consistent for the area of the guidebook... the Hen Cloud big three HVS climbs are similar in that respect.  Masochism in contrast is a locals' joke, it isn't consistent for the Roaches guide and should have been upgraded to E1 long ago for that, for local guidebook consistency (and ashton is right it would almost certainly be E2 in Wales). What bugs me most is the significant variability in what are afterall lower grades, are not matched at the higher grades. The lower grade climbers are the ones who need the most consistent grading as they are less experienced.

By the tough sub E1 standards in Roaches and Over the Moors, or the YMC guides, a whole bunch of VS 4b bottom of the grade classic VS crack climbs in Stanage and Burbage guides (and even comparing to the top end graded list in those guides) should really be HS 4b (for consistency) and some soft touch VS 4b climbs in friendly graded areas away from grit maybe should be Severe 4a... all these soft VS routes get voted mid grade VS in UKC logbooks as they are climbed by VS leading mortals and not only by specialist gritstone pugilists.

You can't just blame the definitives for variability either.... Rockfax grades area-for-area are pretty much the same as the definitives on average and have the odd unchecked sandbag on the Moors (like the starred Diff, Middle Chimney, at Crowden Towers)

I don't care much where in terms of difficulty the standards for grade boundaries are set but they should be set as consistently as possible, as referenced to well known classics. I think this lower grade variability damages trust in trad grading and so in trad climbing, and puts people off leading some great climbs (if you are able and its brilliant you should climb it).

Post edited at 11:46
In reply to Offwidth:

What nonsense. Anyone of whatever experience who stands under Masochism understands perfectly well what they’re in for - viz, a bloody struggle, in the most literal possible sense - without reference to any grade whatsoever.

jcm

 Jon Stewart 19 Feb 2020
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> On a more serious note, I offer Flesh and Blood, sympathetically described to me as ‘oh yes, that 10-foot wall on jugs at Stanage North’ by a friend after I failed on it repeatedly

There's nothing wrong with that route, it's nice. It's exactly what you'd expect for the grade and location, i.e. it's a bit tougher than what you'd get for E1 solo at a more popular part of the crag.

 Offwidth 19 Feb 2020
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

From the man who claims some HVS climbs are too hard to be E1!? As usual you're just spouting macho nonsense on this subject. There are hundreds of other 'bloody struggles' on grit where you know what you will get and its not beyond the wit of editors to at least try and order them correctly and align them fairly grade-wise against the rest (as they currently do most of the time).

Post edited at 12:35
1
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Nothing wrong with it at all, agreed. Long may it and others survive the attentions of killjoys like Offwidth.

jcm

2
 Offwidth 19 Feb 2020
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

You really are childish. These are memorable routes and bad grades just fail to encourage the right climbers to try them. The reason I think Masochism should have been an 'above-midway-graded-list' E1 in Roaches 'beast' grade terms in the last two definitives is because the averege  experience of climbing it for most E1 leaders who had the skills, seems to put it there. You show no sense of irony that it's exactly the same reason the BMC (presumably killjoy) team upgraded the VS sandbag Flesh and Blood (the grade that survived to the '02 guide)  to E1 in '07. The editorial joy of sandbagging with bad grades is the joy of a bully... the joy of achievement on a route like Masochism would speak for itself even at E2.

Frankly I wish all the grit editors could all be adult enough to upgrade all these HVS 'bloody struggles' by half a grade. Adjectival grading should be about average abilities of a leader of the grade with the typical correct skills being able to onsight the route (or ground-up for weird cruxy moves). Its pretty sad that climbers who lead harder than E1 and have those skills and still failed or struggled to onsight Masochism, defend HVS. I love trying to climb these beasts but am confused in consistency terms why we are OK with less bloody struggle routes like Goliath's Groove being middling HVS in comparison  (it feels to me like a VS struggle to  VS jamming and VS laybacking... maybe low HVS overall) and for decades (until '07) it sharing most of its HVS cruxes with Doncaster's Route graded as VS. Maybe GG is middling HVS and feels easier to me because I sought out such struggles and was better than average at them.... if so my view on the grade of the bloody struggles is too low.

Post edited at 14:22
9
 Coel Hellier 19 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

I know the votings are against me, but how about I nominate (at least at it's previous grade of HVS):

Don's Delight (E1 5b)

Certainly it's 5b moves, precarious ones at that, and its a solo above an appalling, serious-injury landing.  

Note that E3 5b is often given for serious, unprotected, mustn't-fall 5b grit. 

 Jon Stewart 19 Feb 2020
In reply to Coel Hellier:

> I know the votings are against me, but how about I nominate (at least at it's previous grade of HVS):

Ah yes! I remember doing the scary 5b start and thinking "well at least it's going to easy from here, since it's HVS". It wasn't.

 Coel Hellier 19 Feb 2020
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Ah yes! I remember doing the scary 5b start and thinking "well at least it's going to easy from here, since it's HVS". It wasn't.

I was thinking: "so it's HVS, and there's no gear, and the landing is appalling, therefore it must be pretty easy climbing, say 4b on positive holds, ...".

 Michael Hood 19 Feb 2020
In reply to Coel Hellier:

I must have been going well when I did that one (many moons ago) but in those days there were no mats (except for beer mats 😁) and it didn't feel particularly bad for a soloable "small holds" HVS micro-route. But that's probably in the context of soloing similar micro-routes which would also now feel pretty scary and undergraded without some mats.

Having mats around and with more emphasis on bouldering micro-routes (i.e. effectively soloing them) with mats has probably increased our awareness of things like bad landings because we might actually be contemplating falling off nowadays.

 Offwidth 19 Feb 2020
In reply to Coel Hellier:

I'd almost forgotten about that ... seconded it decades ago and don't remember the climbing moves but do remember I was very glad I didn't lead it...seemed terrifying for a short HVS. I'll stick it on my priority 'potential sandbags' to check list.

However, Graeme Hammond posted on the logbook comments that it has a good small cam (if tall enough to place it) ...we had no small cams back then. Some scary routes have got a bit easier with modern pro. I think Michael is also right... there was a different attitude back in the 80's to microroutes.

What's your view on Masochism as a matter of interest?

Post edited at 18:54
 Si dH 19 Feb 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

The thing about Masochism is that it is obviously a complete sandbag at HVS but (1) it's really short, (2) it's easy to protect, (3) it's obvious what it involves doing from the bottom and (4) even the name is enough to put most people off if they aren't up for a risk of getting pasted. Even being at Ramshaw serves to reinforce this effect. So it doesn't really matter. If it was E2 it would still be a bit of a sandbag but less well known and to be honest, a grit HVS leader who regularly climbs awkward jamming cracks probably has as much chance of success on it as an E2/3 climber who splits their time between gritstone and limestone walls. You lose the level of jamming competence required after a while of not doing it. 

Anyway I think Masochism is a unique case. 

I wonder what Font grade the bottom half would get at Cuvier? Edit: certainly not 5/5+!

Post edited at 19:11
In reply to Offwidth:

The bottom of Goliath's Groove is very technical for the grade, however you do it. If you do it the strenuous chimneying/jamming way, rather than the harder, unstrenuous bridging way, it's still very technical, i.e. no amount of muscle will get you up it. 

PS. When I say 'very technical for the grade', it used to be VS. But I guess it hasn't been that for a long while.

Post edited at 19:39
In reply to Jon Stewart:

>> Don's Delight (E1 5b)

> Ah yes! I remember doing the scary 5b start and thinking "well at least it's going to easy from here, since it's HVS". It wasn't.

OK, not so hard, but Whillans' Pendulum/Black Magic (HVS 5b) is pretty intense for the grade. I remember the traverse of WP being quite scary as well as hard, because although moderately well protected you were still going to deck it if you came off. Certainly not a sandbag, but I think the whole thing is really E1. Eye of Faith at Gardoms is another marginal one, even by the easier start. Again, not a sandbag, but right on the cusp.

Edit: Oh, and Bachelor's Left Hand

Post edited at 19:51
 Dave Garnett 19 Feb 2020
In reply to Tigger:

> How about Matinee (HVS 5b) then?

Which bit do you think is harder? I struggle with reaching round the overhang near the top but the rest is steady.

 Dave Garnett 19 Feb 2020
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> ...most of all Stormbringer (I don’t understand how this is even physically possible, although my leader had little trouble).

Yes, I recall getting very frustrated and failing on this despite it being very safe and considering myself pretty competent on mantelselves at the time (I remember having no trouble on Traveller in Time, for instance).

I suppose I should have another go.

Post edited at 20:45
 Offwidth 20 Feb 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

According to the definitive guides the bottom of Goliaths Groove stopped being VS in 2002 when Doncaster's Route was upgraded, given they share the same start. Frankly its still easier than the hardest modern graded VS cleft wiggles (about a metre of such to reach the bomber handjams)... I was told in the old days the trick to the start was to back-and-foot the corner outside, facing right.

In reply to SidH

It's weird how gritstone can turn normally logical people into the primevally superstitious. Turning what you say on its head, HVS became a real blocking grade for quite a few climbers as the step up to Extreme worried them, given the hardest safe HVS climbs were too much for them.   Yet those climbs were adjectivally harder than most E1s.. Famous ones like Kelly's Overhang and Teck Crack, let alone the refined climber's humour behind grading routes like Magnetic North as HVS.

If Masochism is E2 why not just say that.

Post edited at 09:38
3
 krikoman 20 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

Broken Crack (HVS 5a)

Diamond Crack (HS 4b)

Or maybe I'm just crap at jamming

Hawk's nest Crack , much more amenable.

In reply to Offwidth:

> According to the definitive guides the bottom of Goliaths Groove stopped being VS in 2002 when Doncaster's Route was upgraded, given they share the same start. Frankly its still easier than the hardest modern graded VS cleft wiggles (about a metre of such to reach the bomber handjams)... I was told in the old days the trick to the start was to back-and-foot the corner outside, facing right.

I'm pretty sure that was the way I used to do it. I remember, near the end of my climbing, I went back to do it, and failed. Having a very off day ... Mind you, when I first tried it with my brother in about early 1969 (it was our first route on our first visit to Stanage, the evening we arrived - camping at North Lees), we failed. We were very disheartened and went up again the next morning before breakfast to settle the score, and bombed straight up it without any fuss.

 Si dH 20 Feb 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

> In reply to SidH

> It's weird how gritstone can turn normally logical people into the primevally superstitious. Turning what you say on its head, HVS became a real blocking grade for quite a few climbers as the step up to Extreme worried them, given the hardest safe HVS climbs were too much for them.   Yet those climbs were adjectivally harder than most E1s.. Famous ones like Kelly's Overhang and Teck Crack, let alone the refined climber's humour behind grading routes like Magnetic North as HVS.

> If Masochism is E2 why not just say that.

I'm not sure what is superstitious about it. I agree that if you want every route to be graded according to the grading system in terms of an average view of overall difficulty, then it's obvious that Masochism should be upgraded. I wouldn't be remotely upset if this happened. I was just pointing out there are valid reasons why it doesn't really matter for a this route and hence why some people might prefer the traditional grade.

 Offwidth 20 Feb 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

My guess is the friction has got worse. I remember experimenting around 1990 and back-and-foot worked but more recently on a cool day it seemed impossible. My favourite story was of a climbing partner of mine who friction bridged the corner to the top then fell off reaching in too far for the jams. Reputably they spotted the landing on the platform below like a circus act and walked away unscathed.

 galpinos 20 Feb 2020
In reply to krikoman:

> Or maybe I'm just crap at jamming

> Hawk's nest Crack , much more amenable.

Diamond Crack used to be a nice warm up solo, Broken Crack has always felt the living end. I shalln't repeat either, in case my fragile ego takes a beating.....

1
 Offwidth 20 Feb 2020
In reply to galpinos:

Diamond Crack is still perfectly OK at the HS grade (jamming still helps but isn't critical). Broken Crack remains a swear inducing struggle at the very top of the VS grade (feels tougher to me than the easier grit HVS crack climbs like Agony Crack). On that subject we have had a lot on HVS classic brutes but less on famous VS ones. Thrombosis is another like that or Lean Man's Superdirect or First Sister or anything safe at the top end of YMC grit or Over The Moors graded lists. Roaches graded list oddly seems to be missing a VS equivalent.

 Dave Garnett 20 Feb 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

> Roaches graded list oddly seems to be missing a VS equivalent.

Back when I started it would have been Saul’s Crack.  Technically quite hard jamming and a powerful reachy move over the overhang but super-safe.

 BnB 20 Feb 2020
In reply to krikoman:

You and I rarely see eye to eye Krikers, old boy. But on this we are of the same mind. Broken Crack is an effing pig. And I've done all the classic VS jamming cracks. The File is easier.

Post edited at 22:17
1
In reply to Offwidth:

> My guess is the friction has got worse. I remember experimenting around 1990 and back-and-foot worked but more recently on a cool day it seemed impossible. My favourite story was of a climbing partner of mine who friction bridged the corner to the top then fell off reaching in too far for the jams. Reputably they spotted the landing on the platform below like a circus act and walked away unscathed.

Yes, the loss of friction on so many classics has made a big difference. Of course, (separate point) the top half of GG is a doddle compared with the start. Very pleasant but really straightforward stuff.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Poor old Saul's Crack is another brilliant climb that's suffered from massive polishing, so that it's lost much of its charm.

In reply to BnB:

But Broken Crack is enjoyably difficult. I really mean that. I remember enjoying the technical difficulty so did it several times.

 Tigger 21 Feb 2020
In reply to Dave Garnett:

An early attempt pulling onto the top slab, fell off and landed back at the belay ledge! Next time i tried it the crux was definately the lower green and slimy lower crack

 BnB 21 Feb 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> But Broken Crack is enjoyably difficult. I really mean that. I remember enjoying the technical difficulty so did it several times.

It's easier if you don't place any gear above your head as cams block all the best jams. And that certainly adds a certain frisson.

 krikoman 21 Feb 2020
In reply to BnB:

> You and I rarely see eye to eye Krikers, old boy. But on this we are of the same mind. Broken Crack is an effing pig. And I've done all the classic VS jamming cracks. The File is easier.


When I first tried it I thought I was getting quite good at jamming, ha ha ha.

Three goes without success I know if we go the Foggatt now, I'm going to be in for a battle.

I once saw some bloke doing it,  and thought ha ha we're in for a laugh now, and he sailed up it, the bastard!! His missus seconded it, and I asked him if I could second it after her, I made an arse of myself again!!

At least Diamond Crack is do-able, if a struggle.

 Dave Garnett 21 Feb 2020
In reply to Tigger:

> An early attempt pulling onto the top slab, fell off and landed back at the belay ledge! Next time i tried it the crux was definately the lower green and slimy lower crack

Definitely helps if it’s dry! At the top, I find it easier to step left, move up the wall and then step back right onto the landing above the roof.

 krikoman 21 Feb 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> But Broken Crack is enjoyably difficult. I really mean that. I remember enjoying the technical difficulty so did it several times.


I didn't say it wasn't enjoyable, just f*cking hard. Since you've obviously done it, it might be more enjoyable for you, I've still yet to lead it cleanly, which adds to it's allure and frustration. I was climbing HVS and it wasn't to far before me leading my one and only E1, but it was a proper struggle, I've always dogged it

I'll get it one day........hopefully.

 Offwidth 21 Feb 2020
In reply to BnB:

In the US, around 5.8, you get many classic routes with long sections of jamming so climbers get used to placing cams at waist level that won't block the jams or the best foot placements. The normal cruxy jamming on grit encourages bad practice ... the high placed cam and the best jam often need the same placement (Two Pitch Route at Curbar being one of the most infamous in this respect... one of the reasons I think its HVS...... 4c and bold without the cam and hard 5a if made safe);  then the ropes can get tangled with the jams, or, best of all, closely placed cams can get "z clipped" in bloody panic

 Offwidth 21 Feb 2020
In reply to krikoman:

Use you head (or knees or anything that gives you a break to recover) and think!

 PaulJepson 21 Feb 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

I'm guessing waist-level gear placements are less likely to result in a groundfall on a 300m granite splitter crack than a 15m grit route though? Face-level seems like a nice compromise

 Offwidth 21 Feb 2020
In reply to PaulJepson:

I agree that's a reasonable compromise (the rope still gets in the way of the lower jam) but equally I commonly see in the UK everything from poor high cam placements to high sport clips that increase risk. Fear overcoming sensible risk assessment is too often the issue. 

Post edited at 13:48
 krikoman 21 Feb 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

> Use you head (or knees or anything that gives you a break to recover) and think!


You'll be suggesting using chalk next !!

 ipfreely 22 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

Anything John Burns points you at 😆

 Offwidth 22 Feb 2020
In reply to krikoman:

Only for the back of the hands... the jams snag the skin less.

 EarlyBird 22 Feb 2020
In reply to Martin Bagshaw:

I found this desperate on second - a long reach I suspect makes a big difference.

In reply to JoeFoster59:

How about Shy Ann Arete, E1 5b? Obviously not the biggest sandbag on grit, but shockingly hard for the grade.

 Offwidth 22 Feb 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

It's a funny one ... firstly it was upgraded in the most recent Over the Moors guide from VS (grade checking killjoys, I know)... secondly it's consistently graded for Moorland routes and stays cleaner than most, finally its escapable below the top. Hence overall I think its probably not committing enough for E2.

If you look down the Over the Moors E1 graded list its very rare to hear any of these excellent routes mentioned on UKC yet there are 60 routes and Shy Ann arete is just below half way.

Post edited at 12:17
 paul mitchell 22 Feb 2020
In reply to Dan Arkle:

Chequer's Crack used to be HVS /EI  back in the day. Now it is heinously polished. I have done easier E2's.  There is a certain VS  on Hen Cloud. I'll let you find that for yourselves. 

 Offwidth 22 Feb 2020
In reply to paul mitchell:

I think Chequers Crack should be solid E1 (certainly more E1 5b for sustained moves than the Rockfax HVS 5c). A trilogy with  Beech Nut and  Stiff Cheese would be impressive, one-by-one, days target for an E2 leader.

CCD?

In reply to Offwidth:

So did you just breeze up it? I thought it felt like solid 5c. (Or rather, very insecure 5c!)

I haven't got the Over the Moors guide. I'd be interested to know what some of the ones near the top of the E1 list are. Another one I thought was very heavy weight for the grade was Ocean Wall. (Of course, these are just my memories from decades ago ... I'm just prattling on when I'm meant to be working )

Post edited at 13:26
 mark s 29 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

Crack of gloom at the roaches is a good fight for E1 

 Graeme Hammond 29 Feb 2020
In reply to mark s:

> Crack of gloom at the roaches is a good fight for E1 

Tough, think it's now at E2 in the latest BMC guide, i remember try to do Lightning Crack (HVS 5b) and then going to do Crack of Gloom for a rest!!! Was ok till the exit left at the top (which some people avoid) then realising I couldn't do the move with my helmet on so the crux was holding on, taking my helmet off and clipping it to some gear before doing the exit which felt like full body pump. Managed lightning crack afterwards and it still felt harder

 Alkis 29 Feb 2020
In reply to JoeFoster59:

Jeepers Creepers (E1 5b)

Felt absolutely nails.

 Coel Hellier 29 Feb 2020
In reply to Alkis:

> Jeepers Creepers (HVS 5b)  Felt absolutely nails.

The difficulty depends quite a lot on whether you allow yourself the obvious jugs 6 inches to the right of the crack, or whether you stuck, blinkered purist style, to upside-down jamming of the crack. 

1
 Michael Hood 29 Feb 2020
In reply to Alkis:

Can you jam?😬

 Alkis 29 Feb 2020
In reply to Michael Hood:

Yes, I was hanging the jams for ages without much of an issue, it was exiting that I had issues with, couldn't quite get my weight over.

 Alkis 29 Feb 2020
In reply to Coel Hellier:

Yeah, didn't even realise there were jugs to the right... presumably around where my heel was when I was trying to turn the lip.

 webbo 29 Feb 2020
In reply to Alkis:

> Yeah, didn't even realise there were jugs to the right... presumably around where my heel was when I was trying to turn the lip.

This was climbed in 1958 heel hooks were not invented till about 1974. So why make it hard for yourself.

1
 Offwidth 01 Mar 2020
In reply to webbo:

Because later guidebooks turned an eliminate finish into a legendary HVS challenge?

 TobyA 01 Mar 2020
In reply to Alkis:

> Yeah, didn't even realise there were jugs to the right...

They made absolutely no difference when I flailed around seconding my mate up the route! But I should add, I can hardly do a pull up on a bar, so pulling up and locking off on big flat edges when your feet are miles in or hanging in space is not my cup of tea!

 Bulls Crack 02 Mar 2020
In reply to ashtond6:

I though E2 6a (/b?) was spot on!  Short(ish), hard, well-protected crux - grading system working just fine

 Offwidth 03 Mar 2020
In reply to Bulls Crack:

I think too many climbers get stuck on how they personally experience things and forget the competant average. If grading isn't for a nominal average it's pointless. Grading well requires a parking of ego and an acceptance of where individual skills don't match the majority of competant climbers at the grade. I also think when moaning about how hard or how easy climbs feel for a grade, too many climbers fail to look at the graded lists... the easiest E2 is a full grade band away from the hardest. A safe, short, top-end-of-E2 technical climb, with a boulder problem start, like Easy Picking (EP),  should feel very technically hard for E2 and, although it will stop some leaders, for such bouldery starts that grade does count as a ground-up on the border with E3. If as a crag regular you watch climbers and read the logbooks and talk to people, not as many competant E2/E3 border leaders fail EP ground-up as the proportion of competent HVS/ E1 bordeline leaders getting stopped by Masochism (even though Masochism attracts a certain type of adventurous climber seeking physical challenge, not typical of the average HVS/E1 leaders' focus). EP simply isn't a big sandbag on that E2/3 border. Masochism is at HVS/E1.

I see the average technical ability of onsight trad climbers steadily improving, mainly due to the increasing standards of bouldering and indoor climbing; yet alongside this the average onsight technical grade margin people will accept for high risk moves is also increasing.... so overall the grades being climbed onsight have not shifting that much from when I started more than three decades ago. A consequence of this is that average onsight boldness for a given technical ability is decreasing.  Separately, 'traditional style' skills are in decline (funniest when watching some extreme leaders demonstrate terrible chimney technique, say on the 'approach' to routes like Brightside). Yes those climbers who can onsight close to their technical limits,  or understand the dark arts of climbing  brutes, should get easy ticks for the adjectival grade, as they are not average climbers.

Most of the remaining grit sandbags I see from extensive observation and research are bold in the lower grades or low-to-mid-grade brutes. In some cases modern grade shifts seem to be in the wrong places. It's not VD routes like Bowfell Buttress that should be moving to HS (as the crux is more like a HVD 4a), it's things like the bold top pitch of Land's End Long Climb (a solid HS 3c). The UK trad grading system is a brilliant tool if used well, so let's do that.

Post edited at 10:14
2

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...