Biggest Sandbag?

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 Mark Kemball 19 May 2019

So, here's the rules, what is the biggest / worst sandbag you have tried? It must be a sandbag at the grade given in the current definitive guide book.

Following a recent experience, I nominate Great Flake Crack (VS) if we have sufficient contributions, we'll start a ticklist - UK's Greatest Sandbags. I know it's been done before https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/rocktalk/sandbag_grading-652438 but that's awhile ago.

 profitofdoom 19 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

I nominate Soapgut (HS 4b) - ridiculously hard IMO or is it just me

 Offwidth 19 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

For a classic, Land's End Long Climb (VD that should be HS) or Masochism which I failed to second (an HVS that must be at least E2?). The one that nearly hurt me was Straight Ahead, a Diff I tried to onsight solo a bit too casually and prevented a fall with a head jam, its now VS. There were other obscure Diffs in the peak that went to VS that I thought were VS but I managed OK.

There are squeeze routes from Mod that I'm too wide to fit through but for experts The Birth of Al is the best I've watched done.

3
 Offwidth 19 May 2019
In reply to profitofdoom:

Really? I thought it only HS when wet (it was VS then). The optional VD start down on the right is a brutal and scary sandbag and the crux of the route for me.

An honorary mention also goes to Canopy Route over to the left from Soapgut (a Diff that is at least HS if clean and noticably harder than Soapgut)

Post edited at 15:46
 profitofdoom 19 May 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

> Really? I thought it only HS when wet (it was VS then). The optional VD start down on the right is a brutal and scary sandbag and the crux of the route for me.

Really - couldn't get up it when I was climbing well at above whatever it was graded then - probably just me as I said - maybe shows just how personal/ subjective a 'sandbag' is

 Offwidth 19 May 2019
In reply to profitofdoom:

You really must have got the wrong route or the wrong start or had a terrible day. It really isn't that subjective on the main line.

Post edited at 15:48
6
 profitofdoom 19 May 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

> You really must have got the wrong route or the worng start.

No - absolutely not - guidebook in hand while stood at the bottom - can't understand it - maybe I was just having an incredibly off day (though that was not the case the day before, or the day after) - mystery remains unsolved

 Jon Stewart 19 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

The Lakes is a good area if you like E1s that are the living end. Quite a few of the classic routes are hard for the grade, like Totalitarian (E1 5c) and The Bludgeon (E1 5b), which is fine, but...

The hardest I've found so far is Tarkus (E2 5c), which involves climbing up to a break at 10m without gear (well, there's small gear on the left, but it's not going to stop you decking out). It's mainly 5b, but there's a 5c move in there too; and the landing is absolutely atrocious. Low E3 would be my suggestion.

The other day I did Feet of Clay (E1 5b) having done Man of Straw (E1 5b) previously. The latter climbs a smearing groove with no holds, top end 5b, getting well above the gear, so it's hard for the grade. But on the variation, Feet of Clay, from a poor bridged rest at the top of the groove, you then commit to an obviously 5c crux! It's solid E2 5c, so only out by 1 grade this time, but it's still real sandbag.

Post edited at 16:18
2
 JimHolmes69 19 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball: Frightful Fred in Wilton 1 in the Lancashire Quarries. I found desperate for VS.    I’ve done much easier routes 2 or 3 grades harder, but that’s climbing.

 Pero 19 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

Mallory's Slab (VD) on Lliwedd 

Bellerophon (VS 5a) on Heron Crag

Post edited at 16:26
 DaveHK 19 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

A great deal of this is down to variations in the climber's form / confidence / skill set rather than routes being incorrectly graded.

Post edited at 17:16
4
 overdrawnboy 19 May 2019
In reply to Jon Stewart:

If Feet of Clay is solid E2 5c (it ain't) where does that leave routes like Equus or Tumbleweed, just because you have a hard time on something it it's not the grading that's necessarily askew. Were you having an off day, should you reassess your ability? 

1
 Jon Stewart 19 May 2019
In reply to DaveHK:

> A great deal of this is down to variations in the climber's form / confidence / skill set rather than routes being incorrectly graded.

So what is the standard that makes a grade "correct"? The grades in the guidebook are also down to the climber's form / confidence / skill level!

 Andy Hardy 19 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

When I did tufted crack at Ilkley, it was officially HVS. 

A fair grade would've been E2.

 Jon Stewart 19 May 2019
In reply to overdrawnboy:

> If Feet of Clay is solid E2 5c (it ain't) where does that leave routes like Equus or Tumbleweed, just because you have a hard time on something it it's not the grading that's necessarily askew. Were you having an off day, should you reassess your ability? 

Equus and Tumbleweed are harder than Feet of Clay - they're top end E2 5c.

If Feet of Clay is E1 5b, then that means that the other E1s on the crag are HVS (and The Palestians VS?).

What I'm pointing out is that Feet of Clay is an anomaly within the system that grades Do Not Direct E1, Man Of Straw E1 (fine, it's high in the grade) but then still grades Feet of Clay E1 when it can't be the same grade as Do Not Direct (or Waste Not Want Not, etc).

Post edited at 18:24
 David Jones 19 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

Angular Chimney at Ogwen- horror. There's another over at Caseg Fraith, supposedly HS...

 overdrawnboy 19 May 2019
In reply to Jon Stewart

>

> What I'm pointing out is that Feet of Clay is an anomaly within the system.

I beg to differ, we can't rewrite the guide every time we have hard time on a route.

 Paul Sagar 19 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

Perihelion (6b+) - total sandbag, insanely hard for the grade 

Stennis Pillar (HVS 5a) - first 8 meters is a solo on sea-polished and greasy holds that can’t be reversed over a yawning chasm down to the sea, then there is an ok-protected 5b move over a bulge. Should be at least E1. 

5
 d_b 19 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

I might ba having an off day but I just got completely spanked by Nat Not (VS 4c)

A shock given how soft all the other routes on the great slab are.

 petegunn 19 May 2019
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Iam sure J.D said that Tuffed was harder than Wellington!

1
 Jon Stewart 19 May 2019
In reply to overdrawnboy:

> In reply to Jon Stewart

> I beg to differ, we can't rewrite the guide every time we have hard time on a route.

No need to. But when you do a lot of routes in the same area in a narrow band of grades (HVS-E3 in my case) the boundaries of the middle ones are quite familiar.

 AJM 19 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

I certainly struggled to see how Demon Wall (HVS 5a) really fitted in the same grade as Great Western (HVS 5a) and Overhanging Groove (HVS 5a).

It wasn't exactly a prime day for sloper conditions, which might explain it. Maybe a crisp cold day would leave those breaks feeling like grippy buckets. But I've certainly done easier E2s than Demon Wall felt on that particular day

 AJM 19 May 2019
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Equus ..... top end E2 5c.

At least

My grasp of the fine dividing lines between grades has never been great, but it certainly felt as hard as the 2 E3s I've done at Reecastle (the right hand two, I think, not the crack-esque one a bit further left). Which side of the line they fall I couldn't really say!

88Dan 19 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

I have a ton bag in my garden right now. I don't think you can get a bigger sand bag than that.

1
 overdrawnboy 19 May 2019
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> So what is the standard that makes a grade "correct"? The grades in the guidebook are also down to the climber's form / confidence / skill level!

The guidebook grades are a concensus of opinions from many over time, what I don't fathom is that with better footwear, better gear, better information and largely better fitness these routes are continually graded upwards as each new guide appears. The adage "the older I get the better I was" comes to my mind every time I see routes I did many moons ago being bumped up the grades, it can't all be down to polished holds. 

4
 Jon Stewart 19 May 2019
In reply to overdrawnboy:

> The guidebook grades are a concensus of opinions from many over time, what I don't fathom is that with better footwear, better gear, better information and largely better fitness these routes are continually graded upwards as each new guide appears. The adage "the older I get the better I was" comes to my mind every time I see routes I did many moons ago being bumped up the grades, it can't all be down to polished holds. 

I think the reason for grade inflation is that the starting point is grades all over the place, with routes being given whatever grade for all manner of reasons that don't correlate with a consensus of putting stuff in order of difficulty. Then, as time progresses, to tidy up the mess, far more stuff gets upgraded than downgraded because that suits our egos. When cruising something, it's easier to say that you're going well rather than that the route is just overgraded.

The tough, classic routes like Totalitarian and Bludgeon at E1, and Equus and Tumbleweed at E2 (so long as the peg on the latter is good) are helpful to define the upper limit of a grade to stop the whole scale drifting. If these ones are upgraded that would be overall inflation, but Tarkus (harder/bolder than Pink Panther) and Feet of Clay (the crux of a hard E1 5b followed by a new 5c crux) are out of whack with the surrounding routes.

 DaveHK 20 May 2019
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> The grades in the guidebook are also down to the climber's form / confidence / skill level!

Yes, but usually (hopefully!) from a consensus rather than one person's experience which is what I was talking about.

Post edited at 06:56
 DaveHK 20 May 2019
In reply to Jon Stewart:

>, and Equus and Tumbleweed at E2 

​​​​​​For a long time my yardstick hard E2 has been Wombat at Malham. When I compare it to some of those E4s at Reiff...

 tmawer 20 May 2019

Monolith crack, Clogwyn y tar. Had one of our team puking like a fulmar. 

 Tigger 20 May 2019
OP Mark Kemball 20 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

Thanks very much for all the suggestions, I can definately see a ticklist here! Offwidth has done a very good job of re-grading many of the old grit sandbags, so they won't make it, and I can't see Soapgut (HS 4b) as a sandbag, but keep the suggestions coming...

 gribble 20 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

My two votes would be:  Man of God at Agden Roacher, although I see it has now been upgraded to VS on UKC.  Still vicious!  Also, Beaker Route at Bosigran.  The first pitch is a fair fight, the second pitch (4c?!) is frankly terrifying!  Maybe it was my inexperience on Cornish granite, but that doesn't excuse the absence of any gear.  Shan't be doing that again.

In reply to David Jones:

> Angular Chimney at Ogwen- horror. There's another over at Caseg Fraith, supposedly HS...

We found Canopy and Soap Gut fine at their respective grades, but Angular Chimney was something else. And very serious (no gear then).

 Sir Chasm 20 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

Impending Arrival, Rylstone. It's not VS and it's not 4c.

 Mr. Lee 20 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

My vote is Suicide Wall (E1 5c)

I felt solid E1 when I tried this but I bailed from the crux. I had a brief try but couldn't find good gear beyond a runner right over the upper belay peg. One of the in situ pegs swa partially torn I remember. At the grade I was expecting well protected 5c, not worn, unusable runner placements with likely deck-out potential back onto the belay ledge.

 profitofdoom 20 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

> .......keep the suggestions coming...

For me I suppose it's partly what I'm used to. I can pad up loose unprotected E3 slabs or walls on sloping holds all day and find them fun (yes I'm an Avon climber ), but then I'll struggle or fail on an overhanging HVS grit crack

Post edited at 10:31
 Mr. Lee 20 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

My vote is Suicide Wall (E1 5c)

I felt solid E1 when I tried this but I was totally shutdown by the crux. I had a brief try but I couldn't find good gear beyond a runner right over the upper belay peg. One of the in situ pegs was partially torn I remember. At the grade I was expecting a well protected 5c crux, not worn, unusable runner placements with likely deck-out potential back onto the belay ledge. Some people it seems resort to combined tactics, which is usually a good indicator of a sandbag. I think the latest CC essentially indicates that the route is a sandbag via the description, but without actually changing the stated grade.

 d_b 20 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

When I first tried (and failed) to climb it The Marmoset (HS 5a) got diff.

To be fair it's one of those weird ungradable climbs.

 mrphilipoldham 20 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

From the other side of the Irish Sea.. All Along The Watchtower (VS 4b).

Did it last week and the first pitch was rather damp. The snigger I got from the locals when they asked what I thought of it was a telling tale! The upper two pitches were a delight but significantly harder than the advertised 4b..

 John2 20 May 2019
In reply to gribble:

I had the same experience as you on Beaker Route - looking at a ground fall from delicate 5b or 5c moves. When I looked at a topo guide later on it looked as though I had not gone far enough left on the top pitch.

 Mr. Lee 20 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

Not strictly adhering to the rules laid down by the OP, but still worth mentioning for a laugh...

Presenten (n8), Bohuslän.

The FA graded this n6+. The person who made the second ascent jokingly suggested a downgrade to n6. It's n8 in the current guidebook from a few years ago. I would guess that this is a jump from around E3 to something around E7 (give or take a grade).

 Rick Graham 20 May 2019
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> The Lakes is a good area if you like E1s that are the living end. Quite a few of the classic routes are hard for the grade, like Totalitarian (E1 5c) and The Bludgeon (E1 5b), which is fine, but...

> The hardest I've found so far is Tarkus (E2 5c), which involves climbing up to a break at 10m without gear (well, there's small gear on the left, but it's not going to stop you decking out). It's mainly 5b, but there's a 5c move in there too; and the landing is absolutely atrocious. Low E3 would be my suggestion.

> The other day I did Feet of Clay (E1 5b) having done Man of Straw (E1 5b) previously. The latter climbs a smearing groove with no holds, top end 5b, getting well above the gear, so it's hard for the grade. But on the variation, Feet of Clay, from a poor bridged rest at the top of the groove, you then commit to an obviously 5c crux! It's solid E2 5c, so only out by 1 grade this time, but it's still real sandbag.

A few more months up here Jon and you may get the locals knowledge.

Tarkus has a thin (3 mm )  thread to protect the ground fall.  Think before you attack the scary wall after the thread, easy to get committed to an awkward sequence.

Feet of Clay is easier than the lower crux of Man of Straw, you just need to use the correct holds in the right order. Like Tarkus, again, easy to get sucked into a 5c/6a sequence.

Interestingly , to me anyway, is that the crux of Man of Straw (early 70's)  used to be the traverse moves out left at the top of the groove. EBs used to be better suited to the small square holds on the groove.

 knighty 20 May 2019
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> Stennis Pillar (HVS 5a) - first 8 meters is a solo on sea-polished and greasy holds that can’t be reversed over a yawning chasm down to the sea, then there is an ok-protected 5b move over a bulge. Should be at least E1. 

I'm glad you said this. I checked out the start of Stennis Pillar, which should in theory be pretty comfortable for me and I really didn't fancy it.

1
 springfall2008 20 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

Fibre (VS 4c) has to be harder than Emotional Dyslexia (HVS 5a)!

In reply to AJM:

Traditionally Demon Wall, Overhanging Groove and Great Western have always shared the same grade - which used to be Very Severe. In the days when they were all VS, we didn't discuss that much, although amongst ourselves we used the term "Yorkshire VS" to mean something that was harder than "Derbyshire VS" and much harder than "Lakes or Wales VS"! "Yorkshire HVS" was something else again, particularly on Yorkshire Limestone.

 subtle 20 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

Slingsbys Chimney on Ben Nevis Slingsby's Chimney (II)

 Kirill 20 May 2019
In reply to Mr. Lee:

Such grading practice would probably be consistent with Världens Svåraste 4+ on the same crag.

 mike barnard 20 May 2019
In reply to Mr. Lee:

> My vote is Suicide Wall (E1 5c)

Good call. I thought E2 6a fair. It felt similar standard overall to Beowulf (E2 5c) which I managed onsight, unlike Suicide Wall! I think the undergrading perhaps reflects that historically the crux was aided at HVS and people are reluctant to upgrade things by too many grades. And yes, the number of failures on the logbooks speaks for itself!  

 PaulJepson 20 May 2019
In reply to springfall2008:

Good shout; I don't think I've ever felt more out of my depth on a VS. I think if you can layback E numbers then you'd be fine but as a VS climber the starting crack sets you up for failure further down the line. 

I also thought Freedom at Wintours was nails at VS but it was 3 degrees when I climbed it and I couldn't feel my hands. 

In reply to John Stainforth:

Talking of sandbags at Almscliff, I think Parsons Chimney at HS qualifies - not for technical difficulty but the oomph required to lead it.

 overdrawnboy 20 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

On reflection the biggest sandbag in the country used to be Callerhues Crag in its entirety. Beware the Callerhues VS !

In reply to overdrawnboy:

Never understood the fuss about Suicide Wall, but seeing people moan about it brings to mind the late great Al Evans - hat tip to him.

jcm

 Jon Stewart 20 May 2019
In reply to Rick Graham:

> A few more months up here Jon and you may get the locals knowledge.

Interesting, thanks! I'll probably do both routes again eventually and hopefully they'll feel more reasonable with the knowledge. 

 Dave Garnett 20 May 2019
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> Never understood the fuss about Suicide Wall,

I tend to agree, given how well it can be protected.  Beowulf, on the other hand...

 HansStuttgart 20 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

the grade IV pitch directly after the bivy on the Salbit Westgrat.

 Offwidth 20 May 2019
In reply to John Stainforth:

Another odd view: there were quite a few VD chimneys clefts and wide cracks that were harder in Yorkshire until the recent grit guides and even the upgraded ones are still usually below HS.

 Mr. Lee 20 May 2019
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> I tend to agree, given how well it can be protected.

Out of interest, when did you climb Suicide Wall? My impression was that the crux protection was poor. The crack was flared and very polished within. From memory I think I placed a shallow offset just above the belay pegs. I couldn't find anything decent at the critical point above this due to the degree of rock wear. The nut would probably have held, although it wouldn't have stopped me hitting the ledge. If it had somehow popped then I'd have loaded the belay pegs, the first of which was already partially torn. If I ever tried the route again (unlikely) then I would probably try to link the 3rd and 4th pitches in order to remove the concern of falling on the dodgy belay pegs.

 krikoman 20 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

Broken Crack At Froggatt Broken Crack (HVS 5a)

And Diamond Crack Diamond Crack (HS 4b)

Maybe I'm just crap at cracks

 mike barnard 20 May 2019
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> I tend to agree, given how well it can be protected.  Beowulf, on the other hand...

The gear is OK but you've still got to climb above it, the hardest move is harder than anything on Beowulf and there's quite a few hard moves in a row. 

In reply to mike barnard:

I remember the protection as being mainly provided by the fact that if it starts going wrong it’s easy enough to stand on your second’s head.

jcm

Post edited at 19:21
 sbc23 20 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

Left Hand Crack (HVD)

Looks fine from the ground. Isn't. 

 tew 20 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

Who Is This Man Dukakis 6b+

Seeing as I'd spent the day doing a few 6c I thought that would be a nice finish.

When I ended up soon far off route as I'd couldn't make the move to get anywhere near the next bolt. There was also just enough of a run out to deck out as well. I got my self on a ledge some how. No where near anything remotely useful or easy. I had to lower down all my slings and qd so I could get some trad gear and put a hex in. About an hour later I had truly dogged beyond all kinds of dogging my way up...

​​​​​​

 overdrawnboy 20 May 2019
In reply to krikoman:

> And Diamond Crack Diamond Crack (HS 4b)

> Maybe I'm just crap at cracks

 In the days when it was HVDiff I remember seeing at least 3 people stretchered away from the bottom of this. Odd as it was protectable on 1970's gear assuming you could hang on a place it.

 Dave Garnett 20 May 2019
In reply to Mr. Lee:

> Out of interest, when did you climb Suicide Wall? My impression was that the crux protection was poor. The crack was flared and very polished within. From memory I think I placed a shallow offset just above the belay pegs. I couldn't find anything decent at the critical point above this due to the degree of rock wear. The nut would probably have held, although it wouldn't have stopped me hitting the ledge. If it had somehow popped then I'd have loaded the belay pegs, the first of which was already partially torn. If I ever tried the route again (unlikely) then I would probably try to link the 3rd and 4th pitches in order to remove the concern of falling on the dodgy belay pegs.

OK, fair enough.  It's true that it must be at least 10 years since I last did it, so maybe the placements have worn and are are less convincing - it used to be possible to aid the hard section (and I've had to do so on one occasion) without scaring yourself too much.

You are definitely right to be concerned about the possibility of a factor 2 fall onto the belay though and I've had that happen too - which is why I'm so keen on the wires in the crack! 

All of which suggests that maybe you're right!  My memories are of a short, hard crack with good wire placements, whilst I seconded my wife up the hard pitch of Beowulf and was staggered by how bold, technical and reachy it was for the grade.

In reply to Mark Kemball:

The Toy (E1 5c)

Absolute sandbag at 5c

Post edited at 22:33
 TobyA 20 May 2019
In reply to Justsomeclimber:

> Absolute sandbag at 5c

I managed to second the Toy cleanly getting out all my mate's plentiful runner in the process. I quite surprised myself in managing it, as I've done very few routes that 5c second and led none. Are you suggesting it's 6a? In which case I'd be even more chuffed with myself!

 Mick Ward 21 May 2019
In reply to TobyA:

Feel free to be even more chuffed with yourself! 

Mick

 tehmarks 21 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

The fun truly starts when your unsuspecting mate doesn't notice the glint in your eye and takes up your suggestion of some horrific and traditional sandbag for their first lead of the day.

 Offwidth 21 May 2019
In reply to TobyA:

The Toy is OK at 5c if you know the sequence. Its a bugger as an onsight. Its more E2 5c than E1 6a.

 Offwidth 21 May 2019
In reply to sbc23:

Simon Caldwell is a human litmus test for such sandbags.

On Mark's view about no sandbags on grit there are plenty left above VS (Masochism being the worst I know)  and even at lower grades on quiet crags in Yorkshire as we only climbed about 2/3rds of those routes that do get climbed and of course in Lancashire where we have barely scratched the surface.

 krikoman 21 May 2019
In reply to overdrawnboy:

> > 

>  In the days when it was HVDiff I remember seeing at least 3 people stretchered away from the bottom of this. Odd as it was protectable on 1970's gear assuming you could hang on a place it.


Ha ha HVD, when men were men

 d_b 21 May 2019
In reply to krikoman:

A mate of mine refuses to lead any route with a grade starting with the letter H on the grounds that "there is always something dodgy about them".  E1 good, HVS bad.  VS good, S good, HVD bad etc.

Post edited at 10:06
pasbury 21 May 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

> I also thought Freedom at Wintours was nails at VS but it was 3 degrees when I climbed it and I couldn't feel my hands. 

I'm glad I'm not the only one! Most of Fly Wall is a bit stiff.

 krikoman 21 May 2019
In reply to d_b:

> A mate of mine refuses to lead any route with a grade starting with the letter H on the grounds that "there is always something dodgy about them".  E1 good, HVS bad.  VS good, S good, HVD bad etc.


Seems like a perfect system, I might adopt it myself. I'll have to get outside again first!!

 Climbthatpitch 21 May 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

I had the opposite experience to you on Freedom. It was 30c and I forgot my chalk bag. Felt like I was going to peel off every move 

Have climbed it again with chalk and there are defiantly some hvs at wintours that are easier than freedom 

 planetmarshall 21 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

The Watch-Tower (E2 5b), HVS in the current BMC Stanage guide. Just...what?

In reply to planetmarshall:

Bill and Ben (E4 6b)

That reminds me, actually - Ben is fine, but if Bill doesn’t belong on this list I’d be very surprised.

jcm

 Duncan Bourne 21 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

Personal favourites (especially for poor jammers)

Calcutta Crack S 4b, Roaches upper tier - I failed miserably on this when I was breezing E1

The Fox and The Vixen at Newstones used to be classic sandbags at HVS and VS respectively (Now E1 and HVS but still tough)

Little Nasty E1 5b on Ramshaw has the most painful dyno into a hand jam start and then a few more hand jams before you can get your feet onto anything.

Absolutely anything on Mam Tor if not done as a winter ascent

Post edited at 13:29
 Duncan Bourne 21 May 2019
In reply to profitofdoom:

Soapgut was one of my early North Wales solos. I must have been climbing well that year

 Rog Wilko 21 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

Almost anything in Northumberland, but to be specific

Jacob's Ladder (VD) on which I failed last year

Tarzan's Mate (S 4a) which I had to aid 10 years back when I could still climb a bit.

BTW, when will someone start a list of classic soft-touches? This would be much more use to me in my dotage.

Post edited at 13:53
OP Mark Kemball 21 May 2019
In reply to krikoman:

> Broken Crack At Froggatt Broken Crack (HVS 5a)

> And Diamond Crack Diamond Crack (HS 4b)

Both seem reasonable at the grade to me, but Diamond Crack (HS 4b) was HVD when I first climbed it - I'd say it was an ex-sandbag!

 C Witter 21 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

I don't think it's a massive sandbag, but I thought Hollow Earth (HVS 5a) was hard for HVS. Not sure if others agree, but it's intimidating and really sustained. Great route though.

 Olaf Prot 21 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

Has to be Three Pebble Slab, when I did it it felt at least...

 Cusco 21 May 2019
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Did you fly to Ireland?

 Kid Spatula 21 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

I have no idea of the names, but I climbed a 4a at Arico, Tenerife that I note is now 6a+. I found it rather hard given I was expecting an easy romp up the route. It is a one move wonder but jesus it's a hard move. On the other end of the scale I climbed a 6a+ that was roughly 4a. 

Croatia is particularly sandbaggy. Notable for me where a 4b that was harder than a 6b next to it. a 5+ that was harder than a 6b+ nearby and a 4c that had one completely mad show stopper of a move followed by a rather large run out up a crack filled with soil to the lower off. All at Paklenica.

Also notable a 4b that I am pleased now is accurately 6a+ at Marjan.

I did climb a 6c that was more like a 5+ at Marjan mind. 

 mrphilipoldham 21 May 2019
In reply to Cusco:

No, I went by sea as I was there for two and a half weeks work.

 neuromancer 21 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

Great Wall (HVS 5b) at Great Wanney. 

Frankly most things in Northumberland, but this one was a f*cking treat.

 james mann 21 May 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

Mark wouldn’t be allowed into Yorkshire so he wouldn’t know. 

James

 d_b 21 May 2019
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

> Absolutely anything on Mam Tor if not done as a winter ascent

I disagree. The guide book is perfectly clear about the sort of experience you will have if you go climbing on Mam Tor.

Post edited at 18:34
 Darron 21 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

I always thought Tatra on BoulderRuckle went beyond merely tough at the grade (in it’s old form I mean).

1
 blackzebra125 21 May 2019
In reply to profitofdoom:

Not just you. I also find this is one of the hardest. Or is it just both of us? LOL.

 Duncan Bourne 23 May 2019
In reply to d_b:

Depends on if you are reading the guide book or someone is saying "hey go to Mam Tor there lots of V Diffs"

 d_b 23 May 2019
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Oddly enough my current climbing partner refuses to commit to any route/crag I suggest until she has seen the guidebook.

 Dangerous Dave 23 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

Fingerwrecker (HVS 5c)

Hard sore and not in anyway fun!

 Mr. Lee 23 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

I can't believe I forgot to mention Crack and Corner (HS 4c). I remember the start being nails for HS. I know it used to be a severe, but maybe the grading isn't keeping up with the rate of polish. I think VS would be perfectly fair. 

 Simon Caldwell 23 May 2019
In reply to Mr. Lee:

I might agree with Crack and Corner, but won;t know until I've finally managed to get up the start! It's currently something like Route 10, Me 0.

 Pero 23 May 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

I seconded an E2 climber on that and she only started after I had used my height to pre place a very high first runner!

 Offwidth 23 May 2019
In reply to Pero:

Its at most  top end of both grades VS 5a as a hanging jamming crack so your E2 leader isn't (at least in that style). They would be utterly spanked by the likes of the local HVS and E1 routes given up thread. Roaches grades are tougher than the BMC Eastern grit guides but not as tough as YMC grades..

 Pero 23 May 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

She cruised the Sloth, by comparison.

The problem with a sandbag, to mere mortals at least, is that you are not expecting the difficulties. That was the first route of the day and it wasn't supposed to be problematic.

 Kirill 23 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

I am going to nominate The Little Flake Crack (VS) at Stanage Popular. I've been trying it since 2011 and without success so far.

 Pero 23 May 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

In fact, I'm also very wary of hard starts with ground fall potential as the first climb of the day.

Personally, I wouldn't attempt a climb like that. I have a success rate of about 50% on gritstone 5a moves. So, that's a 50% chance of a broken ankle.

I don't know where that leaves me as a climber?

Post edited at 18:22
 mrphilipoldham 23 May 2019
In reply to Mr. Lee:

HS is fine, it’s a hard move low down and perfectly protected. 

In reply to Pero:

Presumably it leaves you as a climber who either can’t afford gear or can’t place it correctly.

jcm

3
 Pero 23 May 2019
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Or, just a lowly VS climber who knows a sandbag when he sees one!

 Offwidth 23 May 2019
In reply to Kirill:

Little Flake iis fine as a top end VS... its safe but 5a cruxy.

In reply to Pero

Crack and Corner has a crack and so can be protected as well as you want ... overhead gear at the starting crux. Belaying such routes is a bit awkward but its not an ankle breaker if you have competance. It's not possible at HS 4c for short climbers but then again so many routes on grit are sandbags if you are short.

 mrphilipoldham 23 May 2019
In reply to Mr. Lee:

All routes that have their well protected crux as the starting moves tend to err 'down' the grade chart. HVS 5b/c, VS 5a, HS 4c, etc. I felt HS 4c was fair when I did it, which was indeed when my ascents list was somewhat smaller. I thought it was bloody hard for the 4c grade, but fair as HS as gear was above your head and you weren't committed to the making moves near the top of the route.. the rest of which was steady severe. If the tech grade was now deemed to be 5a, which I agree wouldn't be out of the question, then it'd get the VS grade.

 Michael Hood 23 May 2019
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Nope, leave it as HS 5a, better describes the difficulty of the route.

To be VS, a route with a protectable crux that short and low, it'd have to be 5b.

1
 Dave Garnett 23 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

My experience this week suggests Finger Licking Good (E1 5b) as a candidate but maybe I'm just rusty on Stanage crimps.  I ended up having a toprope, which hasn't happened for many a year.  I was expecting 'brainless fun' at HVS according to the BMC guide but I think I misunderstood that to mean it wouldn't take much thinking about.  What it actually means, of course, is that having any imagination is a bad thing.  Also, 'perfectly spaced' as applied to holds is somewhat subjective.

Anyway, I seconded Dark Continent (E1 5c) shortly afterwards and honestly found it easier.

Post edited at 20:48
 Dave Garnett 23 May 2019
In reply to David Jones:

> Angular Chimney at Ogwen- horror. There's another over at Caseg Fraith, supposedly HS...

This one you mean?

Recess Right (HS 4b) 

 mrphilipoldham 23 May 2019
In reply to Michael Hood:

Part of me agrees, however Tango Buttress (HS 5a) has a hard and unprotected start and gets HS 5a.. so in theory a hard protected start at only 4c should be what.. severe? The beauty of the grading system eh.

 Pero 24 May 2019
In reply to Michael Hood:

> Nope, leave it as HS 5a, better describes the difficulty of the route.

> To be VS, a route with a protectable crux that short and low, it'd have to be 5b.

That begs the question of whether to be a HS climber you must be able to lead 5a and 5b for VS.

The counter argument is that nothing that is 5a can be HS because it's technically above what's expected at the grade.

 Pero 24 May 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

> Little Flake iis fine as a top end VS... its safe but 5a cruxy.

Where does top end VS actually end? 

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Verandah Buttress?

1
 Michael Hood 24 May 2019
In reply to Pero:

To be able to climb any HS you need to be able to climb "boulder problem" 5a starts. Possibly even easy 5b, although personally I would expect that to be VS.

Eg: The Curse (VS 5b) at VS 5b and even Lost in France (VS 5c) at VS 5c although both are almost certainly treated as boulder problems nowadays by the vast majority.

Although it's not adopted universally, when a climb is too hard for S but not hard enough for VS, HS seems to indicate higher technical difficulty, whereas MVS seems to indicate higher other difficulty (boldness, sustained, etc).

1
 krikoman 24 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

I remember Right Twin Crack (VS 4c) being a proper bastard at the time I did it.

Good thread though it's rapidly turning into list of future climbs for me

Post edited at 10:35
 PaulJepson 24 May 2019
In reply to Michael Hood:

> To be able to climb any HS you need to be able to climb "boulder problem" 5a starts. Possibly even easy 5b, although personally I would expect that to be VS.

> Eg: The Curse (VS 5b) at VS 5b and even Lost in France (VS 5c) at VS 5c although both are almost certainly treated as boulder problems nowadays by the vast majority.

I generally steer clear of those sorts of climbs. To me, those inconsistent grades are stupid. A VS 5b/c is going to have a move on it that a solid VS climber may not be able to do, and anyone operating at or above 5b is going to find the rest tedious in comparison. A VS shouldn't have anything harder than 5a on it, regardless of where it is on the climb or how well protected the move is. 

If a move is well protected or off the ground, you can look at the grade in the same way you would with that of a sport climb. Would you find a f7a move anywhere on a 6b? I'm not massively experienced so there may be examples out there but I feel like the short answer is no. 

Post edited at 11:55
1
In reply to The Pulsing Motorik of Neu!:

> Verandah Buttress?

Yes, what a nasty little problem that is. Another HS that's rather in the same category as this and Crack and Corner is Norse Corner Climb (HS 4c), IIRC. ??

Post edited at 12:13
 Michael Hood 24 May 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

The only VS 5b that I know of that is not a boulder problem start is Direct Route (VS 5b) but a competent VS leader would be able to get past the 5b moves with combined tactics or a bit of rope tension work if unable to do the moves.

Actually that is a boulder problem, it just starts from a ledge 200' up.

Making it HVS 5b would give an incorrect impression of the route.

Post edited at 13:15
In reply to PaulJepson:

You seem to be objecting to the route rather than the grade. Mean of the rock to be made that way.

You also have no idea how either trad or sport grades work, obvs.

jcm

4
 PaulJepson 24 May 2019
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> You seem to be objecting to the route rather than the grade. Mean of the rock to be made that way.

> You also have no idea how either trad or sport grades work, obvs.

> jcm

Please enlighten me then.

As far as I know, the trad grade is for the overall feel of the route? If the overall feel of the route graded VS is one that has a move on that spits off VS climbers, how is it sensible to grade it VS

Post edited at 14:04
 Offwidth 24 May 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

Simply because the average solid VS leader can cope with safe 5b moves. Those that can't are either very experienced or maybe a bit bold for their own good and lucky.... neither of which is typical. Such routes are graded for an overall  'ground-up' style average.

Post edited at 14:23
4
 PaulJepson 24 May 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

Well I'd consider myself a reasonably solid VS climber and I'd not be very happy if I came across a 5b or 5c move on a VS. Hence why I avoid those climbs.

And in response to jcm's earlier comment, I don't object to the rock or route being that way the same way I don't have anything against a climb beyond my ability. I just know that I don't like inconsistency in a route so i don't bother with them. 

 Kirill 24 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

Another nomination from me: Bowfell Buttress. Insane grading at VDiff!

(We climbed Aladdinsane and Hollow Earth on the same weekend, and Bowfell Buttress was the hardest. One may say I shouldn't compare a mountain route to single pitch climb in a quarry. But on the other hand, why shouldn't I? They are graded using the same grading system.)

Post edited at 15:09
 webbo 24 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

Stomach traverse vs 4c Almsciff

 Offwidth 24 May 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

Thats all fair for you but it doesn't mean such grades are wrong. You don't form an average by yourself.

It's pretty rare I fail on any safe 5b moves ground-up but I've backed off or have been at the limits of my ability to stay on a climb, where falling might be a bad idea, on many a VS. I've also onsighted the odd bold E2 in the past when climbing well. I'd only describe myself as fairly solid at VS away from harder graded venues.

1
 GPN 24 May 2019
In reply to Kirill:

Bowfell Buttress harder than Hollow Earth?! Are you sure you were climbing the rights routes?

In reply to Kirill:

In that case you were lost. BB is a very typical mountain V Diff.

jcm

 Kirill 24 May 2019
In reply to GPN:

Yes, pretty sure. Neither I nor my climbing partner could do the crux pitch cleanly. We basically ended up aiding it. 

Edit: checked my logbook and apparently I managed it cleanly on the second attempt after falling off.

Post edited at 17:31
 Offwidth 24 May 2019
In reply to Kirill:

It's a hard move. The route gets HS 4b now in the definitive... I'd say more like S 4b as the crux is off a big ledge. As a VDiff its way more of a sandbag than half of the routes that have been mentioned in this thread.

In reply to GPN:

> Bowfell Buttress harder than Hollow Earth?! Are you sure you were climbing the rights routes?

I've taken almost/complete beginners up BB. OK, there's one short slabby wall above a huge grassy terrace that's much harder than anything else on the route, but it's not such a big deal. The rest of course is scarcely Mod and rather scruffy, but it's all in a fine setting. 

1
 Offwidth 25 May 2019
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

The rest of BB  is reasonably sustained and very interesting VD IMHO. The reasons sandbags arise from these old classics is due to such dumb dismissiveness and with the modern obsession with the onsight style alongside a deal of amnesia about how these routes were originally climbed. There was good consistency in early grades given style, skills and equipment of the time. Certainly in the Peak the worst sandbags like Hercules or Straight Ahead were down to big changes in skill sets, or the likes of Friggin Saw (a Severe now given E3) were late 70s or early 80s macho jokes.

Post edited at 08:09
 James Oswald 25 May 2019

Queer street at Chee tor. A brilliant sandbag at E3 - but I like it for that. Pembroke e5!!

 Mick Ward 25 May 2019
In reply to James Oswald:

> Queer street at Chee tor. A brilliant sandbag at E3 - but I like it for that. Pembroke e5!!

(Me to Boggie.) "We'll just nip up this to finish off."  Famous last words!  Fatally dithered. Took a right whipper, ending up not far above the ground. Was told, in no uncertain terms, to get straight back on again. Duly went back on, pumped shitless and fought my way up it. What grade should it be?  No idea!  Ain't going back.

Mick

1
 GrahamD 25 May 2019
In reply to Kirill:

> Yes, pretty sure. Neither I nor my climbing partner could do the crux pitch cleanly. We basically ended up aiding it. 

I also remember it being freezing cold and damp in a November so maybe that contributed ? I reckon 4b is about right and personally id have stuck with VD.

 Martin Bennett 25 May 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

>  The optional VD start down on the right is a brutal and scary sandbag and the crux of the route for me.

Do you mean Wall Climb? If so I'm glad to hear you say it. I did Soapgut (after about 50 years of meaning to get round to it) last year and found Wall Climb to be perhaps the hardest V Diff I've ever come across.

 Martin Bennett 25 May 2019
In reply to Rick Graham:

> A few more months up here Jon and you may get the locals knowledge.

> Tarkus has a thin (3 mm )  thread to protect the ground fall.  Think before you attack the scary wall after the thread, easy to get committed to an awkward sequence.

Thanks for the tip Rick. Comes a bit too late for me though as I nearly s**t meself on it about 30 years ago! Didn't do much better seconding it 10 years later and it's way too much for me these days.

> Feet of Clay  - - - - - - you just need to use the correct holds in the right order. 

Unlike Eric Morecambe eh?

 Offwidth 25 May 2019
In reply to Martin Bennett:

Yes this one. Wall Climb (HS 4b)

 Canopy Route (D)   is harder still and really very good until near the top.

In reply to Offwidth:

Canopy Route had a v bad reputation in 1968. Several fatalities. We were told we'd find the holds full of blood. (After all that we found it just fine, and rather underwhelming, IIRC) ... Edit: except, I've now looked it up in my logbook and see that I said 'A very good route for its grade (should perhaps be higher.)'

Post edited at 13:59
 Offwidth 25 May 2019
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

If you found Canopy Climb fine at Diff it shows you were pretty clueless at judging such grades. There is no shame in that... many better climbers just romp up HS stuff without really thinking about how less able climbers might feel.... but maybe you should be a bit more circumspect about your posts now on your level of certainty on grades on routes you climbed back then that were below VS.

We dug the middle crux out of some heathery turf last year... its really good but harder than Soapgut with three crux sections.. awkwardly gaining the ramp, reaching the canopy and the upper groove (where I mantled a lump for the first time ever on a route below HVS), and has an airy exit out left near the top, just as things start to look even harder

In reply to Offwidth:

Well, we'd just started leading then, and were getting fully 'clued in' to Ogwen grades. Actually, I don't remember ever having great disputes/ disagreements about the grades. It was pretty much a non-subject then. We found those tough grades worked fine for us.

 Offwidth 25 May 2019
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

They were not all tough grades in the early days though, albeit Diff then meant difficult. Soapgut was VS (although due to unprotectability) in the 1910 giide (which had reprints up to 1939). Canopy Route was Diff and unlike most routes on the Milestone isn't currently polished to a sheen.  Grooved Arete was VD then.  Sylvan Traverse was Diff back then (a current mod sandbag where II've never been able to find the correct way as it moves onto the north face).

 C Witter 27 May 2019
In reply to Kirill:

You must be high or trolling. The so-called crux crack pitch of BB is just one or two slightly tricky (possibly 4a) moves on good holds. I'm not even sure it's the hardest part of the climb, to be honest. The overhanging start of Aladdinsane is significantly harder than anything on BB (5a); Hollow Earth is probably harder than both routes, with sustained 5a hand and finger-jamming. I don't think you're remembering very clearly.

Post edited at 00:48
 GrahamD 27 May 2019
In reply to C Witter:

Its not a troll but it does emphasise how conditions dependant climbs are. From hazy memory we did BB on a cold damp November day

 The Ivanator 27 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

Easy Pickings (VS 4b) Even after being upgraded to its current VS 4b (in Cheddar Gorge Climbs) this offering is still a massive sandbag, comfortably worth HVS 4c, quite possibly E1 5a. The last definitive guide (Avon and Cheddar 2004) still has this as a Severe - beware!

Honourable mention for Nat Not (VS 4c) which gets nominated up thread. 

 Kafoozalem 28 May 2019
In reply to John2:

Hi John. Me too # (lol). It felt about E3 5b.

Pete

 Kirill 28 May 2019
In reply to C Witter:

Neither high nor trolling, simply sharing my own experience/opinion.

 C Witter 28 May 2019
In reply to GrahamD:

Fair enough! I've been forced to used combined tactics on a Diff before on a December day when the rock was greasy as a soap dish and we were climbing in big boots! A good way to turn a path back into a precipice! 

In reply to Offwidth:

How the hell is Hercules a sandbag? It’s a giveaway at E1 5a - or do you mean some time in the past when it was VD or something?

jcm

 springfall2008 28 May 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

I should have mentioned Freedom Direct (E1 5b) as well. I tried top roping the finish last week and I couldn't do the moves despite being normally able to normally climb F6b!

 Dave Cundy 28 May 2019
In reply to springfall2008:

I've done Freedom Direct a few times.  Commiting moves for a blind hold with crap gear in front of your face.  Feels like solid E1 5b in my book.  A few years ago, a mate of mine stood looking at the final moves for about an hour before he committed

 Offwidth 28 May 2019
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I was trying to make the point that in the case of routes that would be regarded as a sandbag now with their original grades, due to very different skill sets at the time and what was regarded as secure climbing then, some got big upgrades and some didn't. It doesn't read right: I know Hercules isn't a sandbag now and I'd agree its probably soft for E1 being very safe with modern big pro.

 Exile 29 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

And for those from the South Lakes I give you A Fist Full of Steroids at 6b+...

 Liam Ingram 31 May 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

I'll offer up this one.

The Klondyker (E1 5b)

Ridiculously hard for the given grade in the quite recent definitive.

OP Mark Kemball 02 Jun 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball

Ticklist based on recommendations above now at https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=3375 new thread started - https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/rocktalk/uk_sandbags-705523 - new suggestions etc. on that thread please.

 ozziespain 18 Jun 2019
In reply to Kid Spatula:

Tenerife in General is sandbag central.... but then again like you say there are some higher graded routes that leave a little to be desired. The route in Arico graded 4a wasn´t ''La Guarra'' by any chance?? 

 Kid Spatula 18 Jun 2019
In reply to ozziespain:

It may well have been! Pockets to a horrible slopy break then massive reach to crappy crimps?

Post edited at 19:56
 wilkesley 19 Jun 2019
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

ISTR this route is dangerous. If you do it by putting your forearm into the wide crack and then stand up using the very polished footholds, you will almost certainly break your forearm if your feet slip off.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

> So what is the standard that makes a grade "correct"?

There are a lot of routes that are graded correctly but which can seem like horrors if the given grade is around your limit.  But once you're climbing harder and you revisit them, you'd say it's a fair grade; not that that's any comfort when you first try, of course.

T.

 spenser 19 Jun 2019
In reply to Mark Kemball:

Hawk Slab (HVS 5a) gets my vote, tricky 5a/b moves, no meaningful gear above half height when you do the crux and a horrendous landing. The only person I know who has fallen off it broke their back!

It would get E2 5a or E3 5b at Froggatt if following the grading logic of Sunset Slab/ Sundowner.

OP Mark Kemball 19 Jun 2019
In reply to spenser:

Added to the ticklist.

In reply to Mark Kemball:

Great Central Route (HVS 5b) is one that sticks in the mind; graded correctly, but that's only apparent once you're climbing harder.  In fairness, the HVS 5b grade should offer a clue.

T.

 ozziespain 28 Jun 2019
In reply to Kid Spatula:

sounds familiar  


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