Best E5 on Main Cliff?

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 kingholmesy 25 Jan 2019

Come on then, what is it?

I’ve only climbed Hunger, and am keen to get on another of the big E5s if I make it to Gogarth this year.

I have always quite fancied Dinosar just because I like the story behind the name (ie long neck & small brain required), but pitch 3 of Positron sounds great.  Is Ordinary Route better?

If you could do just one of the E5s, which would it be and why?

 AP Melbourne 26 Jan 2019
In reply to kingholmesy:

My bet goes with Posi.

Enjoy!

 GDes 26 Jan 2019
In reply to AP Melbourne:

I thought posi was a slight let down only because it was loads easier than hunger. If it was e4 it'd be loads better! 

So I vote hunger. But I hear top pitch of citadel is very good 

OP kingholmesy 26 Jan 2019
In reply to GDes:

Cheers Ged - I’m more than happy to get on soft touches!

Keep the votes coming people ...

 Tyler 26 Jan 2019
In reply to kingholmesy:

Ordinary Route covers some of the best bits of some of the best routes ("the" Positron pitch with better approach pitches, the Hunger headwall on pitch 2 and the Citadel crack)

 GDes 26 Jan 2019
In reply to Tyler:

That does sound good.  The lower crux pitch on positron was a bit naff I thought, quite contrived

 Tyler 26 Jan 2019
In reply to GDes:

Yeah, I've still not idea if I did it right! The Ordinary Route start is better. I can still remember sat leaning against a wall after we did it so bushed and so happy. We'd planned on doing another route but OR was more than enough

 Climber_Bill 26 Jan 2019
In reply to kingholmesy:

I've only done Positron and Citadel but thought Positron was awesome. The crux pitch is unforgettable and no soft touch in my humble opinion. Citadel is very good, but the first pitch is quite bouldery at the crux, whilst Positron is more sustained overall.

 Luke01 26 Jan 2019
In reply to kingholmesy:

Ordinary route is the best I've done. Three mega pitches, all hard, it feels like a big day out! 

Plus the name is satisfyingly ironic. 

OP kingholmesy 26 Jan 2019
In reply to Luke01:

Cheers all!

Seems like Ordinary Route might just edge it over Positron, although it sounds like it may be a little harder.

 GDes 26 Jan 2019
In reply to Climber_Bill:

That's interesting. I did hunger and positron on consecutive days and thought the crux of positron felt about e3. I was having a casual chat with a friend who was on the big sleep. I found hunger pretty solid however.

OP kingholmesy 26 Jan 2019
In reply to GDes:

I found Hunger quite hard (and thought it was supposed to be one of the tougher Main Cliff E5s), but then I was only climbing around E3/4 at the time.

Despite this I seconded the first pitch with one rest, and led the second pitch cleanly - which seemed like a run-out E3 in its own right.

 

OP kingholmesy 26 Jan 2019
In reply to GDes:

BTW - is the crux of Positron P2 (which as you say sounds a bit contrived) or P3 (which sounds ace)?

 

 GDes 26 Jan 2019
In reply to kingholmesy:

Yeah the actual crux is pitch 2, which I thought was a bit contrived. You have to go looking for it. Pitch 3 is the main event, but like I said, I thought pretty soft. If it was at ground level, I think it'd be e3 or e4..

Some guys were on citadel when we did hunger. The crux roof on pitch 1 looks quite boukdery. I think pitch 2 is supposed to be amazing, and still e5

 GDes 26 Jan 2019
In reply to kingholmesy:

By the way luke, things have settled down a bit baby wise now, and I'm getting out on the Moor a couple of times a week. Usually at weird times like at night or early morning. Give me a shout if you're keen to get out. Usually Thursday eve and Sunday mornings. 

OP kingholmesy 26 Jan 2019
In reply to GDes:

Cheers Ged.  Glad to hear you’re managing to balance family life & climbing - it always feels like a bit of a juggling act to me!

I’ve moved down to near Truro in Cornwall so not up on the moor so much these days, but will give you a shout if I’m up that way sometime - would be good to catch-up.

 Rick Graham 26 Jan 2019
In reply to kingholmesy:

I know you asked for only one route but why not just try to do them all?

One route not yet mentioned is graduation ceremony. This is almost E5 according to the logbooks. Its over 30 years ago but I cannot remember anything to detract from its 3 star status.

OP kingholmesy 26 Jan 2019
In reply to Rick Graham:

> I know you asked for only one route but why not just try to do them all?

Cos I live 7 hours drive away and if I make up there for a weekend this year there’s stuff I want to do on the other cliffs too!

 

 Rick Graham 26 Jan 2019
In reply to kingholmesy:

Sorry. So much to do , isn't life too short.

I regret not doing positron.

Get your timing right, I tried it too early in the day, it was a horrible soap fest.

Too heavy to try it now

Positron citidal dinosaur and for an easier route graduation ceremony , in that order , would be my vote after reading the other posts.

 

 Robert Durran 26 Jan 2019
In reply to GDes:

> Yeah the actual crux is pitch 2, which I thought was a bit contrived. You have to go looking for it. Pitch 3 is the main event, but like I said, I thought pretty soft. If it was at ground level, I think it'd be e3 or e4..

Poitiron felt like three solid E3 pitches to me with the one move wonder pitch 2 the easiest lead, but I was going about as well as I ever have when I did it (though still with only about 50% success rate on E5's which played to my strengths). Having been on Mingulay and Pabbay a lot around that time, pitch 3 didn't seem particularly intimidating and I remember looking round the corner a thinking it looked fine, which it was. Still a brilliant day out and one of my best ticks, though I've not done any other Main Cliff E5's.

1
 Cusco 26 Jan 2019
In reply to kingholmesy:

Hi KH. Hope all's well. 

Truro. That explains your later comment about a 7 hour drive, which was a bit slower than expected from Jannertropolis or Tavvy. 

Hope all's well. If I can get fit, my year's goal is also up that way, in the Pass. That beautiful snaking crack line in that left wall. Need to escape The Matrix first...

Positron for the history (thinking of Big R thinking of jumping off on the solo) - but Ordinary Route for the climbing based on others comments in this thread? Hope it goes well, whichever one you go for.

Cusco

 Misha 26 Jan 2019
In reply to kingholmesy:

Only done a few Main Cliff E5s so can’t comment on the best but I’d put in a shout for Mammoth. The first pitch is old school bruising into arm sapping steepness, total quality (I should go back to try to do it clean...). The second pitch is not to be underestimated! Or finish up the second pitch of Citadel, which is a solid E4 in its own right.

Graduation Ceremony is good but I’d say E4 is fair. 

No doubt Rob G will be along in a while to give you the full lowdown.

Post edited at 18:23
 Neil Foster Global Crag Moderator 26 Jan 2019
In reply to kingholmesy:

I agree with others that Ordinary Route trumps Positron, the second pitch of which is very contrived (albeit quite a tricky move).  The pitch (on OR) after the Positron headwall is a glorious traverse across the upper part of the Main Cliff, and the 'green hair' finish (the finishing pitch, now virtually disappeared under sea grass) doesn't spoil things.

Mammoth was definitely satisfying, and has a superb sequence of the second pitch, in marked contrast to the brutal thuggery of the first.

Dinosaur P1 is a bit ugly, but P2 is delightful - particularly in view of its 5b grading.

The one I'd love to do is Sebastopol, but I was singularly unprepared for a solid E5 6b in the opening 30ft when I tried it, and haven't been back since.

Rob knows the score on that one too....

Neil 

OP kingholmesy 26 Jan 2019
In reply to Cusco:

Hi Crispin - trust all’s well with you.  Hopefully see you on the crag sometime.

ps - a worthy goal for your year!

OP kingholmesy 26 Jan 2019
In reply to Misha:

> No doubt Rob G will be along in a while to give you the full lowdown.

I was hoping he would post, given that his logbook comment on Ordinary Route says something like “this isn’t the best E5 on Main Cliff”, but doesn’t opine on what is!

OP kingholmesy 26 Jan 2019
In reply to Neil Foster:

>   The pitch (on OR) after the Positron headwall is a glorious traverse across the upper part of the Main Cliff

The traversey-ness of P3 of OR put me off a little bit and I wondered about doing the first couple of pitches, then finishing up Dinosaur.  Sounds like that would be missing out though?

 

 Toby Dunn 26 Jan 2019
In reply to kingholmesy:

I liked all the main cliff E5s I've done - citadel, hunger, positron and dinosaur. They're all memorable and have their own character. I think the relative difficulty largely depends on how lucky / well judged you are with conditions. Even easier gogarth routes can be a horrific soap fest if you get it wrong. 

I would say that the cow on yellow wall is easily the equal of any of these, perhaps even my favourite. Also less fickle conditions and non tidal. 

 AP Melbourne 27 Jan 2019
In reply to kingholmesy:

Hasn't Skinhead Moonstomp been downgraded to E5 yet? Am rather surprised actually.

Re: The Big Sleep, when Big Ron, Jim Moran and Paul 'mi dad' Williams did the FA Ron swung around the arete from the Dinosaur stance and traversed the headwall to finish up the arete. I [mistakenly] described it in the guidebook section I wrote with Andy Newton as going straight up the headwall to 'the bucket seat' belay but that never happened.

So yeah, Skinhead must be about the only route I left you that hasn't been downgraded. Woo Hoo!

Cheers,

AP.

 

 GDes 27 Jan 2019
In reply to AP Melbourne:

Don't think there's much danger of that happening 

 Misha 28 Jan 2019
In reply to Toby Dunn:

I thought finding the crux of The Cow dry is relatively rare. Was pretty greasy when we did it (my excuse for resting on second) but the rest of it was fine. Why it has to seep on the crux is beyond me!

 Rick Graham 28 Jan 2019
In reply to Misha:

I am no geologist but surely water is an important factor in cliff stabilisation and the formation of usable climbing features. 

Live with it

> I thought finding the crux of The Cow dry is relatively rare. Was pretty greasy when we did it (my excuse for resting on second) but the rest of it was fine. Why it has to seep on the crux is beyond me!

 

In reply to kingholmesy:

First and foremost, great thread...

Apologies for my absence thus far, I've had a busy few days with friends, family, and work (what I I become?!).

I'm going to start by laying all my chips down on the table and saying that it's completely impossible (or perhaps I'm completely unwilling?) to pick one. Even picking three is difficult, although I reckon - given a push - I'd choose Hunger, Positron (albeit with Eraserhead's first pitch: an infinitely superior combination/outing), and Sebastopol.

Ordinary Route is good, and whilst I enjoyed each and every pitch let's face it - it's the Positron Headwall that you really remember (only you have to do a scrappy down climb afterwards). In comparison I had a whole lot more fun on Dinosaur, which - due to the sheer quantity of grease lathered across all of the holds - turned into a comical ground-up effort, with progressively bigger and bigger falls being taken until I finally slithered my way to the top. Ordinary Route I will forget, Dinosaur is with me for life.

Going back to Sebastopol (E5 6a), Neil/Misha - team up for an ascent! P1 leads up a pumpy, awkward, and typically 'Main Cliff' Crack. It used to get 5b, but now gets 5c, and in reality should probably get 6a (and probably has the hardest move of the route on it!!). P2 rivals the Positron Headwall in terms of position and quality, with wild moves up and out to an arete from a huge undercut flake. Just run out enough to be exciting, but well protected enough to be safe. It's everything that Gogarth is about, but only it gets a fraction of the limelight.

Whilst it's not necessarily one of my Top 3 Eraserhead (E6 6a) is also well worth doing. P1 is an infinitely superior start to Positron, avoiding that weird/contrived 6a/b move, instead heading straight up and through the crux of Rat Race (which can feel remarkably 6a/b at times too!!). P2 then heads up and out to the spike on Positron, before blasting direct up the arete above. Whilst there is some gear, there's not much, and a fall from the top would be quite a spectacle.

 

OP kingholmesy 28 Jan 2019
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Cheers Rob that’s all really useful - better late than never eh?

Eraserhead sounds ace - but possibly at the wrong end of E5 for me!

In reply to kingholmesy:

Oops, I forgot it came up as E6 on the Logbooks - think it gets E5 in the Ground Up guide (which is about right).

Without wishing to continue the sandbag-a-thon Alien (E6 6b) is well worth looking at as a ground-up proposition. It's well protected and relatively straightforward for the first half, then has a distinct and perplexing crux move, after which it eases off significantly. Thankfully 'the move' is one of those that is a lot easier when you know what to expect, so once you've hypothetically gone up/floundered around/fallen (like I did) you'll probably come down knowing enough to get up it next go.

That said, when you've got all the others to go at this could be somewhat arbitrary! Have fun on whichever you decide to get on and let us know how it all goes, particularly if you decide to get on Sebastopol

 

 Tom Briggs 29 Jan 2019
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Has anyone mentioned the Hunger - Ramadam link up? I'd say that's got the most meat on the bone of any of the E5s I've done. Ramadam has got some proper moves on it.

Eraserhead is a massive sandbag at E5. Odd one to downgrade.

In reply to Tom Briggs:

> Has anyone mentioned the Hunger - Ramadam link up? I'd say that's got the most meat on the bone of any of the E5s I've done. Ramadam has got some proper moves on it.

Confessional: Ramadan is one of the few E5s I haven't done. Remember seeing Dan McManus have a hard time on it years ago, which probably had an influence on my (apparently subconscious) decision to steer well clear of it! 

> Eraserhead is a massive sandbag at E5. Odd one to downgrade.

Interesting, I thought it was alright, but perhaps this goes to show that you don't always realise when you're climbing well.

 Tom Briggs 29 Jan 2019
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

> Interesting, I thought it was alright, but perhaps this goes to show that you don't always realise when you're climbing well.

I seconded the top pitch and recall a tussle to remove some small aliens. Sometimes steep things feel harder on second.

 Adam Long 29 Jan 2019
In reply to Tom Briggs:

I've not done enough of them to have an opinion, but Pete Robins pointed us at the Hunger-Citadel link as 'the best way up main cliff'. And I see Steve Long has added a comment to the same effect on the Hunger logbook page.

OP kingholmesy 29 Jan 2019
In reply to Tom Briggs:

> Eraserhead is a massive sandbag at E5. Odd one to downgrade.

From logbook comments it sounds like P2 is the crux though?

Would linking P1 of Eraserhead straight into P3 of Positron as suggested by Rob be fair at E5?

Would this be much / any harder than either doing the first two pitches of Positron, or doing the first pitch of Ordinary Route?

In reply to kingholmesy:

If anything it’d probably be easier. I remember thinking ‘why didn’t they go that way in the first place?!’, but am assuming that they were trying to avoid Rat Race in favour of new ground - hence the somewhat contrived line to the left.

P1 of Ordinary Route is a whole lot harder and a wee bit bolder. That said, it’s not a sustained pitch, with the vast majority being quite straightforward, lulling you into a false sense of security before an unsurprisingly cruxy crux! 

OP kingholmesy 30 Jan 2019
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Thanks Rob!


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