UKH

I hope the person who complained about the highland cattle above Baslow Edge is feeling proud of himself. I doubt many other people are feeling the same. 

John Gresty

Pardon?

The farmer won’t be allowed to keep cattle on the moor near the paths when they have calves, after an incident with a dog which was on a lead. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-47474646

My gripe isn't with the complainant, but with the HSE

National trust advice  when encountering cows is to release the dog. 

This is an increasingly common situation. There have been moves in the last couple of decades, for good ecological and economic reasons, for farmers to move from sheep to cattle in more upland areas. Sheep leave a shorter, more uniform sward which isn't so good for the environment, so the grant/subsidy framework is encouraging more people to turn to cattle. As a consequence people are encountering cows more often.

Cattle are relatively unfamiliar animals to a lot of people and can appear quite intimidating. Some cattle are also nasty little gits that ARE intimidating. It's hard to tell the difference if you are out for a walk. Unfortunately some land managers will use this to discourage access. Although it sounds like that isn't the case here, it adds to the background of how any instances of conflict are being reported.

It sounds from the story that this was not an isolated incident - the cattle had been difficult before, which is why the HSE have instructed the farmer not to continue grazing with cows <i>and calves</i>. I've seen it reported elsewhere that the dog was out of control, which from the BBC story is apparently not the case, so the waters are already muddied.

the 'elf 'n' safety stereotype is a bit of a knee jerk. If you applied this to, say cycling, how would it be portrayed? A tonne or so of car being driven irresponsibly near cyclists / a tonne or so of aggressive cow in a field where people have a legal right to be. It isn't that cars or cows can't share with people (or vice versa), but that both sides have to show some understanding of the other, and that the majority of the onus is going to be on the people with the big dangerous thing to ensure the small vulnerable thing is not put in danger.

I know people with or without dogs can be scared around big horned cattle - In the past I've had to move english longhorns (which are much more placid than highland cattle) from publicly accessible sites because visitors are scared of big horns on cattle. Similarly dexters are seen as small cute cattle, even though they are sociopathic monsters. I appreciate I had the luxury of other closed areas to graze, however there is some suspiciously emotive language here around these particular animals.

I absolutely get that some dog owners can be absolute arses, the sheep I used to manage still regularly lose ewes and lambs to dog worrying every year, and it is absolutely inexcusable. BUT the dog walker who has just come out for the day has just as much right to be there as anyone else, and should not have to be frightened or endangered just because they are a visitor. I've met difficult livestock when i've been out. So far there has never been a problem because I'm used to livestock and with one or two exceptions (a big dairy bull on a footpath near Sennen springs to mind) there hasn't been any real malice in the beasts, and yes, I mostly walk with dogs.

Livestock farming is a massive ball ache and away from the big dairy beef and pork megafarms, not a profitable one. I like to see livestock in the landscape.

But.

A dangerous animal is a dangerous animal, and if I felt there was a real risk of injury, you can bet I would be talking to the relevant rights of way people and the HSE.

Are they then going to compensate the farmer for all the animals my dog would then chase? I agree that cows with calves shouldn't be in high traffic areas. Even just as a walker I feel wary of them. If I have my dog with me then they are dangerous as if they go for my dog, I don't have the option of dropping the lead. 

Obviously, if you are local then you will know to avoid the area, but as a visitor you can end up stumbling across it without realising. 

Cows kill people!

the person who complained has responded on another forum

https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/frisky-cattle-up-on-bamford-edge/

You're directing your ire at the wrong target. It's the HSE that have made this decision, after an investigation that took over six months. Hardly a "knee jerk reaction" as it is described in the associated petition. The HSE respond to Freedom of Information requests, if you really want to know the detail behind why this decision has been reached, then you could start there. Of course, that requires putting in some actual effort. 

In spite of the popular reaction against this news, my experience of Highland is that they are the least placid breed I have come across.

As is usually the case with social media s*tstorms, there's clearly another side to this, unfortunately some people will only ever be interested in finding someone to blame. 

Herds temperaments can be very variable, and partly determined by how habituated they are to human contact.  I know several highland herds that are very docile, and let both locals and tourists, walk happily past every day, but equally I have had significant concerns about others on the open hill.   Though just because they are happy one day you shouldn't presume they'll be happy the next.

However like all stock its worth assessing what disturbance you might cause and what their reaction may be irrespective of the breed, if you can before passing through. Particularly with young calves, or if you have a dog, and doubly so in the presence of both.

yes, and the other side said he'd have been happy if the farmer was told to put up warning signs when there were calves in the field.

But the HSE decided that wasn't nearly draconian enough.

I think you've covered it

Highlands are a widely used conservation grazing breed but are known, along with Belted Galloways in particular, for being aggressive when with calves. The farmer has a duty under H and S legislation not to keep animals known to be dangerous in a public place and the conservation advisors should have thought of this too when advising the farmer. 

Seems the logical solution is to ban dogs from stock fields at certain times, not limit the fields a farmer can use, which will have a huge impact on their grazing plan. The right of way for public access will be maintained. Plus there is the added bonus of no toxic dog poo, which many owners seem to think is acceptable to leave because it's in a farmers field.  

Somewhere I've got some slides I took around 30 years ago of Highland calves up there, so it's not as though this is anything new.

youtube.com/watch?v=FQMbXvn2RNI&

If cows were kept in fields then I wouldn't encounter them and that would be fine! However, that is not the case.

I don't know the Baslow edge situation with regard to fields, but I have encountered many open grazing with calves and they have been known to take more interest in me than I would like. I have walked past them swinging my ice axe around before! They are more likely to attack if you have a dog, but they do also attack when you don't.

Due to me being very careful where I take the dog, we haven't encountered any not in fields when I have been with him, but I do dread the day I do. 

I am a strong advocate of everyone keeping their animals under control, no matter which sort it is.

Volatility around people is as much a consequence of how much human contact they have, rather than breed. The hardy breeds like highland which can cope with winter often have far less human contact. Farmer drives in, drops bail in feeder, they all trot over without a limp, quick head count and back to the farm. Others like dairy which might be pushed in and out twice a day, milked etc.. don't bat an eyelid. So it's as much down to the farming practice, small versus large too.

The breed does of course give an indication of farming practice and possible behaviour. Either way, cattle are big clumsy beasts and even with my own cattle I never presume they will definitely act in a certain manner, it just takes something small, unexpected or random to spook them as they aren't the brightest creatures in the animal world.  

Y'know? Given our access and conservation legislation is already pretty heavily weighted in favour of landowners at the expense of the wider public i don't think i will, thanks.

Plus restrictions only apply to landowners as a last resort. Responsible land managers have nothing to worry about ( where have i heard that line before?)

Hills, fell, moorland are just big fields!! 

Attack. Cows don't attack. They are clumsy thick herbivores.. They might run faster they can stop, or push you away from calves.  But they are just doing what cows do. We are the intruders in their habitat. The benefits of having cows over sheep are huge. 

Perhaps farmer should just place signage up on paths.

How under control is irrelevant.  It's the presence if a dog that likely triggers some keep wolves away from the calves instinct. The cows don't really care if it's a crufts obedience champion or not. 

I agree, but in the national parks it would be impossible to graze environmentally responsibly, in the right field at the right time of year and avoid clashing with public access. The only quiet tourist time in 3months of winter when nothing grows anyway. I guess it comes down to priorities, environments or leisure. Or fenced in pathways in critical areas. 

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=579127269184471

No they're not! A field is an enclosed area with a fence or a wall around it. Hills are open areas which we should have a reasonable expectation of feeling safe in.

But if my dog 'just does what dogs do', and chases livestock, that's not on. What's the difference? Cows and dogs are equally domesticated, neither are wild animals. They have owners and it seems reasonable to assume that the owners should be responsible for their animals.

Or shouldn't place cows with calves in unfenced areas!

But cows don't just go for dogs. They go for people without dogs too! Yes, dogs heighten the risk, but the risk is still there even without a dog, especially if they have calves 

Your link just tried to get me to download something. Didn't show me the video

In England quite a lot of moorland etc is fenced - so in effect a very big field. Plus as compared to Scotland we have the complicating feature of mostly public footpaths/bridleways rather than a general right to roam, and many of these route the walker through fields. On some farms the farmer may not have much choice about limiting public/cattle interaction other than by signage.

Personally I rather enjoy seeing Cattle on the moor )and on the Alp for that mater), certainly a traditional part of farming practice and way better than white maggots. They do need treating with circumspection at times though.

I guess the farmer is fulfilling their responsibilities unless they are trying to graze their cows in your back garden?  

They aren't keeping them as pets though, they are trying to make a very marginal living. 

Cows are curious, they'll want to come and see you! Yes I know the odd ones are a bit skittish. But this is people going into the farm environment, not the other way around. The land and views etc.. in the national parks are not natural, they don't maintain themselves. 

I have been along that track many times in the last 40 years and never had any problems  with the cattle. But maybe because that's because I respect them and do not treat them as dumb dangerous animals, people need to learn to read the situation. Know when it is safe to go near and know when to necessary to keep well clear.

This summer in Switzerland there was a herd of cattle on a well populated path, most folks gave them a wide berth, I got to stroke one of them that was right in the middle of the path, they were obviously well used to people. 

John Gresty

Seems to me that in this particular case, there's an unusual element. Normally I don't much care for cows when I'm out in the countryside and if they're arsey when they have calves then that's unfair on the walkers. But (nearly) everyone loved the Baslow highlands! They look really cool - they're part of scenery of the place, generally loved by visitors. Given that they make a significant aesthetic/cultural contribution to the place, I think the HSE should've taken this into account and cut them some slack. The impact of getting rid of them seems disproportionate - would've been different if one had mauled a child or something.

Not the first incident here either?  

This is sad news, more gentrification and sanitisation of our spaces.

'Cows kill people' girlymonkey? It is more often the other way around....

What's next - White edge and bigmoor get napalmed because some delinquent little Fido gets bitten by an adder? 

My reading is that these particular ones were pets:

"There was no real financial incentive to have them, but they were part of the farm"

I guess this is where I see the difference, moors and hills are not really a farm environment. There are grazing rights, but it's owned by national park rather than farmer. The fact that the land and views are not natural is due to these grazing rights and if we had less grazing we would have more natural land. If there is public access to an area then there shouldn't be dangerous animals on it. 

No, the space becomes more wild and less sanitised if it's not grazed. I'm all for wild!

Indeed, the cows get bred to get killed, there are no wild cows. That is a whole other debate about the right and wrongs of that. It doesn't alter the fact that cows do kill people. 

But adders are wild, very different. The last death from an adder bite was in 1975! It's not the same scale at all. 

The environmental benefits of cattle grazing completely outweigh any financial ones. 

Most nps don't own the land. Its a classification imposed on land owners within their boundary. 

I think it's the intention of the HSE to intervene before that kind of thing happens, rather than after.

But 'dumb dangerous animals' is exactly what they are. Otherwise reading the situation and knowing when to keep well clear wouldn't be necessary.

Which is what leads me to believe that there is more to this than one complaint. The HSE were investigating this for over six months before making this decision, what were they doing all that time? Hopefully with all the attention this story is getting their report will be made publicly available, and there will be no further need for speculation.

Better advice would be to not take dogs into places where there are cattle and calves, sheep and lambs, and ground nesting birds. Exercise the dogs elsewhere, not forgetting to clean up after them. 

Those cattle were perfectly calm every time I walked past the, often within a few feet. I am sure there were signs up regarding the fact the cattle could be upset by dogs.

Yes. But I'm still on the cow's side, rather than the hypothetically-mauled child. Haven't you seen their fringes?

I think part of the problem is that most people aren't used to cows, rather than the other way round.  Of course young heifers and bullocks will charge around and sometimes get quite close, but if you just face them they will skid to a halt and just look at you.  Has anyone ever known a cow actually make contact apart from incidents involving dogs or confined spaces?  Even very tame ones will barely tolerate you stroking their noses - apart from the highlands round here who enjoy having their chins rubbed.

Loving the language here.... mauled, attacked... It's little wonder all the actual really dangerous animals that still exist elsewhere in Europe have been hunted to extinction in the UK. 

That deserves rather more than a "like", but as it is......

Bracken just takes over though, one of the reasons cows graze this area (and parts of wharncliffe) is to inhibit bracken through trampling. Thats why I said 'spaces' and avoided the use of the word 'wild'. I struggle to think of a truly 'wild' landscape in England.

Cows do kill people, and that risk needs to be minimised, those most ar risk are the farmers themselves. I loved those Highland Cattle, they really added something, and I instinctively kick against this elimination of all risk from our recreation. I don't think it does harm to remind people to respect animals.

Someone someday will argue that they are a danger, and should be controlled, will no one think of the children! 

There always is but that never stops people reaching for the pitchforks.

That's the last thing you should do.  They'll definitely come running if they think you're going to feed them!

Yes.

Not much into the rewilding argument myself but for those who are this must be a  worrying reaction to a few domesticated beasts ( and following on so soon from the uproar caused by a dog relieving itself on someone's coat....)

Wasn't saying it was really. Probably less dogs then though

The statistics point to more incidences/risk with some breeds but I agree that's not the whole picture. 

eg Bulls of recognised dairy breeds etc as per HSE advice http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/ais17ew.pdf

The NFU guidance is also pretty clear: "If you are aware that particular animals are likely to be upset by people walking in their field, or are likely to behave aggressively towards people, then you should consider whether they should be in a place with public access, or one where walkers are known to stray."

https://www.nfuonline.com/cross-sector/rural-affairs/access/access-news/liv...

Yes. But do we get more incidents per breed because of the way that breed is usually managed etc. 

Plus. Smaller herds on smaller farms are less and less common. Big herds on  big farms have very little human contact. Robotic or carousel milker, feed by a tractor pulling a bail shredder. Good handling and calm nature, the ability to lead by hand etc are traits that most farmers don't consider so much anymore. 

"you should consider whether" is not exactly clear.

Mixed feelings about this, as they were sort of "part of the furniture" on that bit of moorland.

I'm not a fan of grazing animals, especially if - as the farmers stated - they weren't much use in terms of providing a livelihood...but to get rid of them for this reason sucks.  What about all the dogs that have passed through that land over the years without any trouble?  I love dogs, but I have to also say that this reaction seems more like what I would expect if they had gone after the owner, rather than the dog.  When they go after the dog, they are just behaving exactly as I would expect them to at times... 

In any case, if the land isn't grazed perhaps it'll be repopulated by some nice birch trees and return to something like its natural state.  Every cloud and all that.

Seems clear to me.  But I read a lot of guidance docs (land contamination related mainly), so used to the language these types of bodies employ.

""If you are aware that particular animals are likely to be upset by people walking in their field, or are likely to behave aggressively towards people"

.... means if you know there is a hazard of potential significant concern

"then you should consider whether they should",

... means, then undertake a risk assessment to decide if action is required.

Also to add, Iive with 5 miles of Burbage Edge and have regularly biked past this herd (day & night), so know about them.  Never had an issue with them, but always gave them the respect/distance.  Cows are big animals.  Had  quite a few occasions in other parts of the Peak where I've chosen to gone the long way round rather than go through a big herd of cows (don't begrudge it at all, just what you have to do sometimes, no big deal).

Real shame to see them go, but this is a relatively busy part of the Peak Park.

Did you mean Baslow?

Been a long week and the wine is having the desired effect

youtube.com/watch?v=h46ry-hpM3o& 

I agree with your suggestion that the document suggests some consideration of risk should be undertaken, but the result of the risk assessment might very well be that there is no need to remove the animals.

Yes, where I live in Cambridge we have urban cows of a docile breed that graze by a towpath that is very busy with cycle commuters, dog walkers and tourists taking selfies. They are indifferent to humans, even when the humans stop their bikes right next to them, form a large frustrated group, wave, gesticulate, and make funny noises like “Oi stupid beast will you get away from that gate you are blocking the exit”.

you Asked what s the difference 

livestock has a purpose 

pet dogs do not 

there are no wild cows.

Er you should google more try

https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=safari&channel=iphone_bm&sou...

Iv taken the time to train my dog not to chase any livestock. Its not difficult. Anyway it as the national trusts advice after 2 people died in close time in cow fields with dogs on a lead.

I'm working on it, but it can be difficult depending on the dog. Ours came with VERY many issues, and it takes time to work on all of them. I hope we might get to the stage of being ok with livestock in the distance, but chasing is a stress relief behaviour so if cows started chasing us and I released him he would feel the need to chase to releave the stress. Fences are no obstacle unless they are a deer fence. I'm not worried for his safety with cows chasing him, he will outrun them no bother....and we might get him back 3 days later when he has had his fun with everything else around! 

I know why it is the advice, but it just isn't always possible. 

I choose carefully where I walk! I am terrified of cows anyway and even more so if I have the mutt

Glad I don't live there then! Although from the description it sounds like you would need to search them out more than stumbling across them.

Sorry to hear your dog has issues. I understand your dilemma. 

So the guy knew he was supposed to drop the lead if livestock got worried by his dog, but knew he "couldn't" drop the lead because his dog wouldn't come back to him, and he still took his dog near livestock?

He willfully put himself in danger, and then complained when it turned out to be dangerous. 

There, were you?

That is complete bullshit. I am chilled round cows and don't mind when fresians crowd round etc, but I have been chased in an extremely threatening manner by fresians when on my bike. If I hadn't moved faster than the cows, I'm convinced I'd have been in trouble (and yes, I tried staying still and facing off first until it was very clear that wasn't going to work). I still don't mind cows, but that occasion was very scary. 

The link was to a video from a farmer (who I think is also a fell runner) explaining how cattle react to people. Basically if you run and/or make a noise they get curious and come towards you. Go slowly and quietly and they ignore you.

So you need to do the exact opposite of what your instincts tell you!

And they're not really "wild", they're just free grazing domestic animals that have a few hundred year history (the tourism info about them being pure bred original uk wild cattle aren't confirmed in any way). 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chillingham_cattle

If you had just stopped, what do you really think would have happened?  I seriously doubt that any of the cattle would have got within a metre of you unless they were really panicking and you were in the way of their escape route.

This is a real shame. I had heard the National trust we’re promoting the grazing of Highland cattle as a natural way of dealing with the spread of scrub and briar.

I’ve been walking my dogs on Baslow Edge once a day at least for the last 20 yrs and have never had a problem.. The cows get a bit agitated in the spring with young calves about but we just gave them a wider birth. Nowhere near as excitable and unpredictable as some other breeds.

I suspect this problem arose at the feeding station nr the Wellington monument. You can see why the farmer chose this spot.. natural protection from the weather.. water supply.. good track for access. However it did create a pinch point between the track and the wall, with cows congregating, churning up the surrounding ground making it difficult for walkers etc to pass or circumnavigate the herd. Other feeding stations beneath the edge didn’t present this problem.  A similar situation exists on Longstone edge but with far fewer walkers.

I’ve heard the farmer has sold the herd so that’s that apparently.😕

yes, it it a shame, especially as it seems the complainant didn't envisage such a severe outcome.

On a slight tangent, if cows with young calves are considered to be enough of a hazard that they shouldn't be grazed near rights of way, does this set a similar precedent for land that falls under CRoW?  

There is a potential issue here with conservation organisations such as the Natural England and NT (who will have agreements with NE) looking for conservation outcomes in accessible areas and recommending the use of certain breeds for conservation grazing. H and S law places the responsibility firmly with the landowner/tenant but the agencies needs to think about the impacts of their advice/requirements on the public and landowners. 

It might be trying to get you to install on the Facebook app on a tablet/mobile. The link works fine on a desktop browser and you don't need a Facebook account to watch the content. It's worth a watch tbh, good vid!

I tried that. That's what I would normally do. This time the cows really meant business. I've been around cows loads and I've never seen anything like this before. We weren't by their escape route. Genuinely threatening. I can only assume it was the bikes that freaked then out. Interestingly there was a bull in the field with them who couldn't have cared less!

I guess my point is that on the whole cattle are relatively docile but every now and again they turn. To claim that they are harmless is patently untrue with several people killed each year by cattle in the UK, and it isn't always dog related. I'm not arguing that they should all be removed from land with public access, but there are circumstances where caution should be exercised, both by the public and by farmers. 

Perhaps you have poor taste in bikes, some cows are quite fussy I hear.

(I've also been chased by cows when out on a bike, you have to get a lick on!. Just saw this big incoming shape out the corner of my eye.  Wasn't the ones on Baslow mind)

Like you, I've been past that herd of Highland cattle dozens of times over the years and never had the slightest problem. They always seem totally docile and simply ignore you. I know I've joked that 'perhaps with horns like that they probably haven't had to have a fight for about 10,000 years!'

Appears rumours of the cattle’s removal may have been premature. Still some up on the edge last night. 🙂

Cattle can move at amazing speed. About twenty years ago, watched a shit machine worrying a few calves in the western highlands near Ullapool. Unfortunately, they were not quite fast enough. But it was  a close run thing.