UKH

Can anyone enlighten me as to the reasons behind  Sun King E1 5b*, Sun Queen E2 5c**, Euryale E1 5c**, Ebb Tide. HVS 5a*, El Diamante HVS 5a** and Abstinence HVS 5a* , all on The Escarpment at Attermire,being  retro-bolted recently?  Apparently without any recourse to BMC area processes?

It's a bit strange that the UKC logbook for the crag has four schizophrenic routes with both a trad entry and a sport entry.

I'm baffled about the process here.

That doesn't sound great, be nice to know who was responsible and what the thinking is behind it?

Chris

I've walked past it once, looked overgrown at the time. Rightly or wrongly maybe it was done to get a little more traffic out that way?

Though I agree whoever went about it should have gone through the proper channels.

I'd love to seen a new Yorkshire limestone definitive though, it'd help promote venues such as this. The current one is good, but dated.

Well I believe that work is ongoing for a new guide. And maybe this retro-bolting of existing, starred, trad routes is part of that 'work'.

But, apparently, there has been no discussion of this at the Yorkshire BMC Area meetings. It's just been done; so we can all just suck it up.

Sadly (to me at least), this has been happening for some years. I was responsible for developing Langcliffe Skyline in the late eighties with Chris Crowder. To quote the last YMC guide (2005): "one will find them to be composed of excellent rock with strong natural lines. Well worth a visit". They were retro-bolted without any reference to me at all. I doubt if Chris was contacted either since he left climbing decades ago. The episode left me quite sad at the total lack of consideration some climbers seem to have nowadays for what was once a strong code of ethics. I suppose the people now who enjoy a nice safe clip up won't be at all bothered about what used to be a fantastic trad route.

Yesterday, we walked up past Moughton Nab (sport) - it was busy and cars were parked quite a way along the road. Later, we came down past Crummackdale and the crag was deserted. Trad limestone would appear to be on its last legs?

Despite having been visiting Attermire sporadically since 1965 I can't claim to be familiar with the buttresses concerned, though have done the odd route on some of them. Are they just loose intimidating horrors upon which few would set foot, a la Robin Proctor's Scar when it was Norber Scar? It's certainly clear from recent data on here that whilst the increase in quality might be arguable the increase in popularity is without question. The first route on your list has 2 entries in the last 20 years as a trad climb; 15 in less than a year since.

The same increase in popularity of routes would appear to be true of Langcliffe Skyline. A route we did there, The Reply, had 10 entries in 30 years; its sport version had 10 in 2019 alone. Bolting there, when it happened, did surprise me as we'd visited in 1993 and done a couple of your climbs at E1/E2 and found them hard (E2 was always my limit) but good and on good rock. 

The blessing of the climbing community at large seems to have been bestowed upon the bolting of the aforementioned Robin Proctor's Scar as well as Giggleswick and a number of other erstwhile trad venues I know less about. Perhaps they, as was feared from the outset, are the thin edge of an ever thickening wedge.

I climbed lots at Robin Proctors after it was bolted and enjoyed it. The only trad route I did there before this was the central groove which was an OK severe. That did warrant being turned into a sport crag in my opinion as it was loose on a big scale.

The routes we put up at Langcliffe were all very good trad lines on excellent rock as good as Malham Right Wing. Pro was good except for the slightly bold start of 'Safe at Any Speed'. The lack of traffic was, I suppose the only 'justification' the bolters felt they needed. I wouldn't know for sure since no-one bothered to tell me.

Yes, the wedge is being driven in ever deeper. I get the impression that once you've bought the bolting kit you feel compelled to keep going and neglected out-of-the-way crags are fair game. High and Low Stony Banks are further examples of this. In some ways I'm not really qualified any more to have an opinion since I've probably retired from climbing? This 'F*ck off' attitude I think was one of the reasons I feel I got out of the game.

I'd like to inject some context here.
Attermire is a big crag spread over a lot of different buttresses across an extensive escarpment. The rock and crag is of varying quality and a variety of styles are established there. Victoria Cave and Alcove Buttress (formerly trad) are now established sport venues. There is also bouldering on the cave at Alcove Buttress. There is good rock quality and popular trad climbing on Southwest Buttress, the Legover Groove area, Apex Buttress (three tiers of it), Main Buttress (two tiers), Barrel Buttress, and Moonshine Buttress. The two buttresses I haven't mentioned are the Neb Buttress and The Escarpment. I've not climbed on the Neb - it looks like a tottering heap of neatly stacked rubble. Nobody climbed on the Escarpment, which is where the routes that have been bolted are) any more, even before the 2005 guide which I'll quote here.

"The scree at the foot of the crag is fed regularly by these routes, especially after the winter thaw. Extra special care is needed on rock of this calibre, and the wearing of helmets is recommended on most of these routes, by the second at least, irrespective of what grade you normally climb. Many of the routes were not re-climbed during preparation for this guide and their unpopularity is evidenced by the advance of the vegetation. There are however, one or two gems that are worth seeking out particularly around Moonshine Buttress at the right hand end."

The gems mentioned are the good routes on Moonshine Buttress which have remained as trad climbs and will remain so. The rest of the Escarpment barely looks like crag in places, with bits of rock poking out from between the grass.

Another point to clear up is who has done the sport development, which Andy has carefully omitted. It's not a group of vandals from the local outdoor centre or climbing wall youth team. It's a group of time served local activists including Dave Musgrove, Bob Larkin, Mark Radtke, Jerry Peel etc, all of whom have made a huge contribution to Yorkshire sport and trad climbing. That's not to say they're infallible, but they've got enough sense to make sensible decisions about where sport development is appropriate and where it isn't.

Also worth noting is that one of the routes that Andy is so horrified about being bolted (Sun Queen, E2) was already protected by a bolt which was probably clippable from the E1 next door (another of the routes on Andy's list). Where was Andy in the 70's when the Escarpment was first bolted, eh?!

From reading Andy's posts about this on Facebook, his arguments seem to hinge on three things:
Trad routes should not be retrobolted.
Allan Austin routes especially should not be retrobolted.
Due process has not been followed (i.e the local area meeting was not informed).

On the first count, the ship has sailed long ago. It's not to say that ALL trad routes are open to be bolted, but the MO is fairly clear and sensible. For incorrigible choss or where the rock quality is not conducive to producing quality trad climbs then bolting on Yorkshire limestone is fairly kosher and there must be about 20+ years of precedence for this. Twistleton, Malham Right Wing, sections of Gordale, most of Attermire, Pot Scar etc etc etc are not going to get bolted. I'm staggered that it took this long to get round to cleaning and bolting the Escarpment.

As to Allan Austin routes, the FA is inconsequential. Austin did some spectacular routes. He also did some shite. In fact, Austin was so unimpressed by some of his routes (since retroed) that he refused to record them. Anybody who knows even the first thing about Yorkshire limestone will know that this is far from being the first Austin route to be retrobolted.

Due process hasn't been followed. I suspect that the reason for this is that the Escarpment is so obviously within bounds for bolting under the current widely-accepted ethos that it was hardly worth the troubling asking. Plus the bolters in question make up a decent percentage of the people who actually turn up to the Yorkshire meeting, so could have swung the vote themselves. Plus the area meeting is hopelessly unrepresentative of the climbing populace in Yorkshire, so one might ask what gives it the privilege to decide what gets bolted. I suspect Andy is pounding this drum so hard because he knows it's where he can whip up the most outrage - anti-bolters like him lost the argument on the other points decades ago. Before people start foaming at the mouth and screaming "thin end of the edge" they may wish to acquaint themselves with the crag, the area, and the last 30 or so years of rock climbing history (during which time, somehow, Stanage and Malham Right Wing remained undrilled). If it's that important to Andy to get the area meetings rubber stamp then I'm sure it can be put into the next agenda.

I think we would all sleep happier in our beds, Will, if due process had been followed via a discussion at a well-publicised area meeting and then a democratic vote. The trouble with statements like 'hardly worth the trouble of asking' and 'area meetings are hopelessly unrepresentative of the climbing populace in Yorkshire' is that, yes, you could trust characters like Mark Radtke and Jerry Peel to do the right thing but what happens if some deranged idiot decided to defy tradition and convention and bolt stuff which should remain trad? Revert to Ken Wilson style vigilante flying squads armed with crowbars and hacksaws? It needs some kind of well publicised democratic procedure that is clear to everyone

I hear what you're saying, someone needs to get down Crummackdale with a drill and some bolts, yeah?

A petrifying thought, but it doesn't seem to happen. There are a few barriers - not least the sheer cost per route, and the technical skills and gear required. These things mean that people tend to not start their own bolting until they've got a fair bit of experience under their belts. Even then, bolt funds are always crying out for more volunteers to come forward to help with maintaining existing routes.

Re: the Crummackdale comments. Yeah, those 3 x 3-star routes on perfect rock with the steady stream of traffic are really perfect candidates <rolls eyes>. The Bulk Buttress on the other hand might be suitable. But before anybody did any bolting they'd have to have a serious think about where the additional visitors to the crag would park.

1. I've climbed on The Neb and The Escarpment. I can testify that the experience need not be terminal.

2. "There are however, one or two gems that are worth seeking out particularly around Moonshine Buttress at the right hand end.". Presumably those gems Include Sun Queen (2 stars) El Diamante (2 stars) and Euryale (2 stars)?  "Not conducive to producing quality trad lines"?  It would seem that it's the quality lines that have been singled out for 'the treatment'.

3. I named no names as I didn't KNOW names.  But I'm intrigued by the idea that retro-bolting a trad route is OK if the right people do it

4. In the early 70's I was mainly climbing in the Peak. In the late 70's I moved to Yorkshire and spend much of the 80's climbing at Attermire. I don't think there were any bolts there at that time. Sun Queen was only put up in '03.

5. "Trad routes should not be retrobolted." As a general rule of thumb: correct.  And I'm afraid I just don't believe that ship has even cast off never mind sailed.

6. "Allan Austin routes especially should not be retrobolted." It's not so much the 'who' as the 'history'.

7. " Due process has not been followed (i.e the local area meeting was not informed).". No it hasn't. And I would respectfully suggest that the process is one of seeking approval rather than 'informing'.

8. "The Escarpment is so obviously within bounds for bolting under the current widely-accepted ethos that it was hardly worth the troubling asking."  This current, widely-accepted ethos; where can I get hold of a copy?

9. I don't actually see myself as some sort of rabid anti-bolter: simply someone who doesn't like the idea of retro-bolting established trad routes.  I have clipped the odd bolt in my time

9. The very LAST thing I want is something sing 'rubber'stamping'. I'd expect some proper scrutiny bearing in mind the BMC policy on fixed equipment.

See. And I've managed all that without getting personal once......

We climbed a number of the routes on  the Attermire Escarpment on Saturday and can confirm the (now) quality and the popularity - despite the unseasonal weather, it was buzzing (and not in an uncomfortable way). We didn't see a single other climber on any of the other established sectors.

We spotted the passage in the guide which Will quotes: "Many of the routes were not re-climbed during preparation for this guide and their unpopularity is evidenced by the advance of the vegetation. There are however, one or two gems that are worth seeking out particularly around Moonshine Buttress at the right hand end."

The only trad route I saw climbed was Hare's Wall Direct (on Moonshine Buttress which has indeed been left bolt-free) which my mate led and thoroughly enjoyed, having carried a light rack as well as sports gear - I don't think he'd have made the visit without the attraction of the nearby bolts. 

I can't comment on the background or process, and I'm not saying that "popularity" is the only relevant factor, (or even desirable) but the end result seems to be in step with the assessment of the crag made in 2005 by the then guidebook authors, and has certainly created a popular venue. 

More generally, I think it's only fair to record my appreciation for all of the work and expense that has gone into developing sports climbing in Yorkshire on otherwise unsuitable rock, which is summed up in the new supplement - worth chipping in a tenner by way of recognition (and I say that as someone who's favourite crag is Gogarth Yellow Wall). 

There's a bit of a write up and a few pictures here:

https://rockaroundtheworld.co.uk/2020/07/11/rock-around-yorkshire/

That's quite a detailed analysis of why you think the Escarpment should have been bolted, Will. I do agree with much of what you say. I'd also like to state that all the people who you name have done a great job and a service to Yorkshire climbing in producing hundreds of quality climbs from what was largely a bag of bilge. I'd be a total hypocrite if I didn't say this as I have clipped away with the best of them. However, there have been glaring examples where a line has been crossed. The routes I've already mentioned that I was involved with are one case where very good (not chossy) trad was retro-bolted. Good trad on all the various Gigg crags were either retro-ed or made irrelevant by nearby bolts. As for other trad crags, I believe it's just a matter of time. Unless the current fashion changes this is inevitable. For Crummackdale as already mentioned, it will start with the bold stuff on the left and then move to the 'classics'. If not the current bolters, then the next generation will complete the job. Does anyone bother putting up new trad any more? I wouldn't bother myself any more - is there any point?

I climbed at Attermire last week on Moonshine buttress and was impressed with all the hard work that has taken place in the cleaning and gardening of the crag and with the quality of the bolting resulting in some very good routes. The Yorkshire and Burnley teams have in general done a very good job in turning this and other crags E.G. Old Man’s Crag from places with unkempt and overgrown routes that were very rarely ascended into places where it is now a pleasure to climb. Many of the quality trad routes are still in there original state such as Hares Wall Direct (E1 5b) 

A lot of this is not true.

First of all, the Giggleswick escarpments. A lot of the trad has been retroed, but by no means all. There are a number of trad routes left on Gigg North, Gigg South's main crag, and there is also the entirety of the very significant upper crag which remains trad. The upper crag is a really good trad venue and I fully expect it will remain so.

The argument that good quality trad is inevitably retroed as neighbouring bolts routes creep closer doesn't bear scrutiny. The routes on the wings and Terrace Wall of Malham have remained as trad routes because they are very well suited to trad, if not seldom-travelled. There has been no creep of bolts there despite them being directly next door to the country's preeminent sport crag. I'd also point you at the trad routes around Face Route, Jenny Wren, Rebel, and Deliverance in Gordale; The Moughton Mauler; the vast majority of Attermire; large sections of Kilnsey; about half of Blue Scar; a good number of routes at Yew Cogar; Central Wall at Dib Scar; and (from what little I know of the Peak) tonnes of stuff on High Tor.

Thats rather a dismissive statement.
I would suggest that a few years ago Attermire Buttress would not have been bolted, and now it has. I have climbed there and enjoyed it and to be honest I am not that fussed about what people bolt or do not bolt, however to deny Lankymans suggestion that bolts may creep in seems as I say dismissive of a person who has done a lot of and a lot for climbing.

No offence intended to Karl. It's just that it's an argument that is posited again and again when there is plenty of evidence out there which debunks it.

I'm not sure which buttress you're referring to when you say Attermire Buttress.

Sorry where the new routes are. Had a great day, few sports routes and enjoyed the kalymnoseque bolting, did the cave and my partner led an E1 hare wall?

However the creep thing is an opinion which I would tend to agree with and would suggest cannot be held as not true, as only time will tell. 

What exactly have I said that isn't? You immediately contradict yourself with your next sentence:

There are a number of trad routes left on Gigg North, Gigg South's main crag

Yes - although no idea why. There are so few now that taking a rack is pointless. I don't have my guide as I'm at work and it doesn't show the latest situation anyway, being 15 years old. I'll give one route that is pointless though: The Ramp at Gigg North. Was a great E2, now neutered as a line by all the vertical sport routes that cross it.

and there is also the entirety of the very significant upper crag which remains trad. The upper crag is a really good trad venue and I fully expect it will remain so.

I hope so although there has been bolting very close by on the crag left of Kinsey Cave, the G Spot where I put up some trad lines some years ago. Personally, I'd have no actual objection to those being bolted, not that any objections would be yconsidered by anyone it would seem.

You seem to be repeatedly ignoring the actual examples I have already given you. I could give you more but to what end? Are you just going to keep on saying this until it becomes 'true'? Langcliffe Skyline had a mix of brilliant trad and sports routes which I thought was fine - something of quality there for everyone. Then someone decided to retro the trad without any reference to anyone else.

What is true is that multiple decisions like this have been taken on several crags by people who appear to be acting unilaterally.

Karl Lunt

Some fair points, Karl. I'm not wanting to rehash the last 30 years or so of debate. I came on the thread to point out the context of Attermire which Andy seems to have obfuscated. I'm not interested in getting dragged into any more pointless arguments with Andy who seems to be an armchair activist and presumably doesn't climb in Yorkshire any more. If he thinks that trad routes shouldn't be retrobolted he might get quite a shock if he ever opens a guidebook to the area.

Langcliffe Skyline is quite different to Attermire and maybe some lines were crossed, but it's certainly not true to say "some good quality Yorkshire limestone trad has been retrobolted, therefore it all will be in time". There's been approximately 30 years of bolts rubbing up against quality trad and there's plenty of good quality traditional routes still standing.

Once again I'll say it - you are ignoring the obvious and all-too-common evidence.

I'm not expecting anyone to be this blatantly unethical for a few years yet. It's not a fair comparison to the examples I've quoted earlier. Sport climbing developed on the largely blank central walls and at grades mostly well beyond the reach of the average climber. The Terrace and Right Wing are effectively crags in their own right. If there had been quality, mid-grade trad lines weaving their way about the central wall, how long do you think they would have been maintained?

These are all classic lines in a high profile venue. You would have to be exceptionally thick skinned to even contemplate putting up sport routes around them in the same fashion as has happened elsewhere. There are sports routes and trad routes co-existing at Gordale without encroachment - a situation that is to be applauded. I wonder how the first ascensionists of the hard and sensational trad lines there would feel if I brought my Hilti over and started to fill in the gaps?

Do you know why this was left unbolted, Will? Were Tom or Andy asked about it? I know both of them but haven't seen them for years so don't know the answer. Do you know why the people who equipped the nearby sport routes left it alone - what was it about this route they couldn't bring themselves to drill (Tom's an ex-Marine instructor so he might get uppity!). You seem to be speaking for/on behalf of the people you've mentioned upthread. Perhaps you can tell me their rationale for what happened at Langcliffe or other crags where perfectly viable and good trad routes were retro-ed.

I'd give them a decade at most. The evidence appears to be that tradding on smaller limestone crags in the Dales is in a terminal decline. I've met a lot of the bolters and like them personally, I was on the 2005 guidebook team as well. If they don't do it someone will in the not too distant future. People are opting for the easy allure of sport more and more and will see it as odd that places like Pot Scar and Twisleton aren't bolted. They are doing this already - I saw it on Sunday at Crummackdale and Moughton - and the future is clear to see.

A mere backwater of no interest to anyone, Gary Gibson apart (and he's got form in this context).

No. The evidence actually tends to support the contention that if people want to retro-bolt existing trad routes to make them 'better'  then they just will.  Without reference to BMC policies or anyone else.

'Armchair activist'? Cheeky wee bugger... 😉

Exactly.

That sort of sums up how I felt when the process became personal to me back about a decade ago. In the end I decided it would be a futile gesture and gradually decided to get out of climbing.

No, that's me, Andy! Or am I a keyboard warrior ..... ?

It's a shame you got out.

OK. I've asked my questions.

I thought that we had a debate and that a concensus had been arrived at about the amicable co-existence of trad and sport. And that future development through an agreed BMC policy and process for determining future was the way to go.  I was quite possibly wrong.

This debate has affected my depression and my blood pressure.

I'm out of here.

​​​

In reference to Gordale, presumably you're aware of all the good sport routes coexisting very literally right next to Face Route?

Do you mean the ones close enough to Face Route that you don't need a trad rack on it any more? No.

I think you're right to raise the issue of bolt creep. It's certainly a sensitive issue and got me going today at Giggleswick North. On the one hand I'm really grateful for the persistent hard work of the Yorkshire bolters which has provided safe climbs at numerous venues enjoyed by hundreds of climbers, often on rock that would otherwise be unclimbed. At Attermire  last Saturday I was really pleased to see that quality trad routes like Hares Wall direct had no bolts near it. That reassures me that the balance is right and that trad and sports routes can coexist on the same crag. 

Today at Giggleswick North I was disappointed to see that some trad routes I did 12 years ago are either retro-bolted (September Flake) or spoiled by unsympathetic bolted lines nearby (Ivy Buttress and Acid Test). The fact that a 1* HVS has transformed into a 3* 6a speaks volumes about quick fix convenience climbing. When are the trad grades on retro-bolted lines going to be deleted from UKC and then we can all forget there was ever an alternative to the prevailing ethos? 

I had forgotten about this supplement Dominic so thanks for posting -I'll try and get hold of one because regardless of the kerfuffle I'm really interested in trying out some of these new sport areas, not instead of climbing trad but as an opportunity to climb more sport as well. 😊. 

Surely this is a prime example of a completely neglected bit of crag being rejuvenated by the addition of bolts. September Flake had one tick on UKC in 1982 as a trad route. Since bolting there have been over 100 ticks since 2016. I guess this just comes down to your perspective. From mine, this is wholly positive, and has led to many enjoying a bit of rock that would almost certainly have faded out of memory. Awaiting the dislikes from the trad dads who get out for their twice a year fix and like to moan on UKC about the thin end of the wedge yada yada yada.

I suppose the problem with that argument is where do you stop with bolting routes to make them more popular? Yadda Yadda Yadda...

I am a dad and I do climb trad, although more sport this year post lockdown, but I get out a bit more than twice a year.

Very true. I just think the transformation of a 1 star limestone HVS with one UKC tick since 1982, into a 3* 6a with comments saying it's one of the best routes of the grade around, was an odd example to highlight of bolting gone too far. Something to discuss further when I'm back from my grit bolting mission, perhaps.

I'm not sure September Flake is that odd an example.  After all, it has probably improved in quality because it now uses the top pitch of Ivy Buttress, making it longer and more varied.  In the old days, it finished at the ledge and involved abbing down.  Of course, this has altered Ivy Buttress (the E2), which used to have a fairly impressive top pitch, although technically quite straightforward compared to the section below.

Attermire Escarpment has some decent bolted routes and some nice trad remains, which  seems to be getting done a bit more now that more people are visiting.  I'm not sure why the official sanction of the area committee wasn't sought - seems to me that is a basic opportunity to have the discussion in a managed way, rather than after the event.  Some trad remains, though why Hares Wall Direct and not El Diamante or Abstinence or Birthday Groove - what is the logic here?  Perhaps prior discussion would help make these arguments clear in advance of development.

I've been up to Attermire twice recently.  On both occasions people were also over on the main crag, which reminded me of some great times years ago.  It is strangely lovely spot and I will visit both areas again, but can't help feeling somewhat saddened that Karl's routes and others have been changed without consent or approval.  Part of the problem is that if these things happen without some kind of sanction, what argument do we have when it happens elsewhere?

"Site specific and regional drilled equipment agreements and proposed changes to those agreements MUST be debated and agreed by climbers at open meetings arranged by the BMC. The Area Meetings provide a structure for such debates.  NO proposal for changing the drilled equipment status of a crag should be voted on at the meeting where it is first proposed. Proposed revisions to drilled equipment policies and / or retro-bolting proposals should be widely publicised prior to discussion, and agreed on a consensus basis.   

In these discussions the following factors must be given careful consideration:

Access, environmental and land ownership issues.

The history of the area or crag in terms of the established climbing ethics.

Existing drilled equipment policies and agreements in place.

The views of the first ascensionists.

The level of importance (i.e. local / regional / national) of the area or crag in question.

The nature of the rock (i.e. natural or quarried) and the availability of natural protection.

The aspirations of current and future generations of climbers."

Current BMC policy as far as I'm aware.  My emphasis.

There is a truly delightful irony in that when you search for 'bolt policy' on the BMC website (and I defy anyone to find it through that route 😆) you keep finding a tribute to Ken Wilson as a 'linked article'.

Yes, that was my understanding and it all seems perfectly reasonable.  Until this thread started, I didn't realise that the agreed process had not been followed.  I've done a lot of the routes and enjoyed them (and contributed to the bolt fund), but I am very surprised that the precedents were apparently bypassed.

I suppose it's a bit like the British Music legacy - what do we want to be remembered for?

The classics and still well considered talent of the 60's, 70's, 80's or the utter shite of the talentless mass produced kak of the 90's onwards.

Leave the routes alone - popularity is not an excuse for debasing our crags. Look at Norbert Scar what an utter eyesore and circus on a weekend now - and it's an SSSI.

It's happening everywhere - people just out for themselves without regard for their actions and the effect on the environment.

What's the trouble? If they're at the meetings anyway why not simply propose it in what is －according to you － an open and shut case? 

If people don't want to ask the question when the going is easy why would anyone bring anything more controversial to a meeting? Better just to do it and wait until someone notices right？

I suppose one conclusion is, that if you have been a top climber you can do as you wish, and bollocks to concensus.

Having said that, so few go to BMC area meetings I am not totally convinced of how much concensus they represent.

😂 Amazing comment. Back to the 80's you go!

I think you're right that it should have come to the area meeting, but bearing in mind the ongoing pandemic and cancellation of area meetings across the country I suspect they've just cracked on in the interim, because as Will says, its open and shut in reality. It will come before the next Area Meeting so please do attend and make your views known, that goes to anyone on the thread. 

I love that the BMC policy, quoted verbatim, gets a dislike 😂

Sorry? They've just 'cracked on' during the pandemic?

What's the desperate rush?

And, obviously, the drilling started before Covid19.  What we are dealing with is a complete disregard for the BMC policy.

And, despite the passionate rhetoric of Will Hunt I think there IS a debate to be had. There are now 60+ sport routes on Attermire. Why choose to retro starred trad routes as well?

I love the way you created a sock puppet to support your view, "Eric".

I simply don't understand what you mean with that post.

Andy, for someone who says they've been to Attermire a lot your understanding of the contemporary crag is woeful. To say there are 60 bolted routes at Attermire is misleading in the context of this debate because a large number of those routes are on separate buttresses and are routes that were never trad routes in the first place (a number of Alcove Buttress and most of the Victoria Cave routes). The bolts on these routes were placed years and years ago. You're either ignorant and being deliberately misleading - do you even know what you're getting cross about?

I don't understand why you're raising a fuss about this now and in this way? You seem to have absolutely no idea about what has been happening with broad public approval on Yorkshire limestone for decades. Gigg North, Gigg South, Troller's Gill, Trow Gill, Robin Proctor's. Where were your objections then? It seems like your historical knowledge of the area stops at the end of the 80s. If you're not actively climbing, then one might ask what on earth it has to do with you?

If your original post had been complaining about the bolting of El Diamante or some of the stuff on the margins of Moonshine Buttress then I'd have had more time for it because they're clearly more worthwhile as trad routes, but the vast majority of the climbs on The Escarpment which you're complaining about were dogshit, even if somehow they sneaked into the guidebook with stars. If you happened to enjoy one or two of them in the 80's then that's wonderful, but they had fallen into almost complete disuse.

My view is not that all trad limestone in Yorkshire is up for grabs for retroing, and it's certainly not that increasing traffic is justification in itself for retrobolting. Indeed, I know that I and a few others have given a gentle nudge to Dave and co to follow the BMC policy in future. However to come along some 20 - 30 years down the road, seemingly oblivious to all that's gone on, and start to foam at the mouth about some of Yorkshire's shittest rock is very perplexing. The Escarpment is far from being the Rubicon of this debate - Karl's points about Langcliffe are much more pertinent, though with respect to Karl, it sounds like his objection there mainly because they were his routes - he was perfectly happy to see RPS retroed.

As an aside, before you get all shirty about it being called Robin Proctor's Scar, you might want to get a map out. Norber is the name of the enclosed promontory that the crag is on; Robin Proctor's Scar is and was the name of the crag.

I know. I was giggling too. I'm not sure in what respect Robin Proctors is an eyesore or a circus. It's a lovely natural crag with bolts, which are not even visible to the walkers down below the crag itself. And as for circus, it's distance from any big towns makes it still a quiet and peaceful place even on the busiest weekend, specially compared to the average peak edge.

Nice one Rob, thanks for enlightening me. So its popularity on UKC that's the yardstick for retro bolting? I'd better get climbing some more trad then and increase the hit rate before the carpet bolters move in. There I was hoping for a nuanced understanding of the rich history, subtleties and diversity of the hobby we share. 

Given your view that they are experienced climbers who know what they are doing, surely they should set an example and follow the correct consultation process, or what message does it send to less “time served” climbers.

What a crass statement. You seem to be arguing that it’s up to individual bolters to decide what to bolt and let’s keep our fingers crossed they get it right. Let’s not give the local area BMC members an opportunity to comment. Anti-bolters could take the same approach to chopping bolts.

If procedure had been followed I suspect it would have saved a lot of hard feelings.

One of the dislikes is mine.

Not for the policy but your unnecessary meddling with bold and capital type emphasis.

Dave Musgrove, Bob Larkin, Mark Radtke, Jerry Peel etc....biggest bunch of vandals you'd ever meet. They are bolt addicts, they need therapy.

But hey, leave them alone, they are all old and haven't much time left, let them play out and do what they want.

Barstewards...they bolted one of my first ascents...

Fused Fiction  E3 5c

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/attermire_scar-602/fused_fiction-9...

I am trying to keep out of this Yorkshire debate, but will continue to climb there. In my opinion the locals are doing a good job.

Fwiw , in the lakes , I wrote a redraft/update/clarification of the Cumbria area fixed gear policy.

It was at the behest of the BMC area committee and was effectively passed without alteration , except for fine tuning my crap lazy grammar. 

I attempted to collate theoretical policy with actual on the ground ethics, practice and practicality. This meant that the local bolt fund and individuals could develop with minimal reference to the BMC.

It seems to be working quite well. One dominant  point was to protect climbs of historic importance from bolts. I do not think that anything at Attermire would would come into this category.

😂

And I never suggested they be used as such. I was simply using them as in indicator of traffic. A flawed indicator, for sure. However, I would argue that a sole log in 1982 vs. 100+ logs since 2016 is reasonably conclusive.

'To say there are 60 bolted routes at Attermire is misleading in the context of this debate"

No it's not. It's a fact. 

"routes that were never trad routes in the first place (a number of Alcove Buttress and most of the Victoria Cave routes). The bolts on these routes were placed years and years ago."

Not exactly 'years and years' but I've no problem with those developments.

"I don't understand why you're raising a fuss about this now and in this way?" 

Because I've only just become aware of what has happened over the last few months. I'm not bloody prescient.

"broad public approval"

With no debate or agreement? How do you quantify that beyond footfall?

"Gigg North, Gigg South, Troller's Gill, Trow Gill, Robin Proctor's. Where were your objections then?" 

I had no major objections. I'd have thought some of them predate your involvement as well.

"It seems like your knowledge of the area stops at the end of the 80s. If you're not actively climbing, then one might ask what on earth it has to do with you?"

There really are times when you come across as a patronising little git; you know? What do you know about my knowledge and activity?

 "If your original post had been complaining about the bolting of El Diamante or some of the stuff on the margins of Moonshine Buttress then I'd have had more time for it".

Oh FFS! Look at my bloody post! It was exactly those routes I was querying.

"I and a few others have given a gentle nudge to Dave and co to follow the BMC policy in future."

Well Whoopee-Friggin-Doo

Hmmm ..... I'm biting my lip in a manner of speaking here, Will. Your whole tone on this topic has been to defend to the hilt actions by the bolters and to belittle and denigrate anyone who has an objection. Your use of the phrase 'perfectly happy' wrt my attitude I think shows your contempt for other people's points of view to say nothing of my motivations or feelings.

I WAS happy for Robin Proctor's to be bolted. NOT because I had no personal stake in the routes, simply because it makes complete sense there. With regards to Skyline I was upset on a personal level as I had put a lot of time, effort and dedication into establishing those climbs. If they had been of indifferent quality - as so.much of the Escarpment is/was - then I would have had no problems at all with them being drilled. Even if the bolters hadn't bothered asking me. The trad routes at Skyline were very good, among the best new routes I've been fortunate to find. The only problem was their location on an obscure backwater. If they'd been on the Right Wing they'd have been famous classic climbs and quite likely picked off in the past by Austin or Livesey decades before I came onto the scene. So YES, it was personal to an extent for me. Your spinning it to make it seem as though all I care about is the drilling of 'my' lines is both wrong and insulting. The actions of the bolters where they have ignored the prevailing ethical code is the real problem here and you aren't helping by rubbishing people's legitimate concerns.

You now describe those figures as "flawed" and "reasonably conclusive" in the same paragraph. Baffling. I'm not sure how you expect people to have logged trad climbs in 1983 when UKC (and the internet) did not exist.

I have never climbed in Yorkshire so don't feel my thoughts on the debate carry much weight (although I'm strongly 'anti-bolt').  I just wanted to point out that comparing UKC logbook ticks in the way you have has zero value, because of the reasons outlined above.

For a start, September Flake ain't at Attermire. But in this specific case, yes, I think the increased traffic is a good thing. I never said this should be used as a general criteria.

Describes the narrative in pretty much every journal paper I read. Every measurement method has error (flaw) in some way. This doesn't mean you can't draw reliable conclusions from the data.

You had no major objections to the retro-bolting of Giggleswick South, Giggleswick North, Troller's Gill, Trow Gill, and Robin Proctor's Scar. But retro-bolting 6 starred routes (whose stars were in some cases quite spurious) on the Escarpment and margins of Moonshine Buttress is a bridge too far? I'm going to have to digest that for some time and hope that one day it makes sense.

Karl, sorry if I caused you offence, that's just how your comments up-thread read to me. I've climbed at Langcliffe Skyline but only after it was bolted, so I've never approached the routes there as trad routes. I can't make any comment on what they were like pre-bolts so can't really say one way or the other whether that was the right call.

For what it's worth, if the first ascensionist's opinion matters to anybody, then they may be interested to learn that 3 of the routes that Andy named in his OP have either been directly retro-bolted by the FA (Bob Larkin - El Diamante) or else the FA was actively involved in the Escarpment's sport development (Glyn Edwards - Euryale and Sun Queen).

This is why I personally don't see the FA's opinion as being particularly important. They don't own the routes forever, and while I generally support the bolting in this case, clearly it can work both ways. FA's don't always "guard" their old trad routes. What if Fawcett got his drill out and started work on Malham's Right Wing?

According to your logbook you were climbing in Yorkshire a few weeks ago!

What did you think of the sports climbs in Intake? I'm thinking of going there soon and try some to see if it will help me get over the trauma of my one previous visit there last summer to belay a partner on one of the big trad lines! 😱 

Thanks for this. Please take it from me that they were very good trad lines and something worth preserving as such.

Let's turn this point of view on its head. What if I (or anyone) decided to de-bolt the routes? Do the views of the bolters (retro- or otherwise) hold any sway in your view? I can't speak from much experience but bolting takes a lot of time, effort and expense. I would imagine it would be more than a little galling to have this all undone.Of course climbs aren't the personal property of anyone, even the first ascensionist. But they do have more than the usual emotional investment and to have this effectively trashed is quite something. From what you say it would appear you couldn't argue against de-bolting? Then again, I won't presume that that's your view.

Well I think we are probably in agreement. I’m not giving an opinion on whether the bolting has been done sympathetically or not, but that by not following an agreed protocol it can create arguments. So maybe you are right and the area protocol needs rewriting to reflect the reality on the ground.

Keep on digging that hole 😆

Lack of experience and historical knowledge then😆

Well I, personally , think that with your disregard for first ascentionists opinions you are out of step; and ignoring the BMC criteria.

I'm afraid that I cant work out just what that stuff about 'what if Ron started drilling on Malham' is about. A. He's got more bloody sense and B. He'd be in the wrong and C. He didn't put up that many routes in the Right Wing anyway.

I can sense that for some reason you are really quite passionate about the benefits of this retro'ing at Attermire. That is to be applauded.  

But you must allow that it is legitimate to question how, and why, this has been done.

So, a hypothetical venue that had been developed as a sport venue but the climbing community decided they'd like it as a trad venue, against the wishes of the FA? Or bolted routes on the Escarpment that the community agrees should be debolted? In that case, if there's a clear community desire to debolt, then that should happen. It's not going to happen with the Escarpment - the community has already voted with its feet as far as I can see.

It's not that I don't understand an FA's emotional attachment to the rock. I've done new routes and boulder problems - I get it. I just don't think it should override the wishes of the community at large.

They f*cking well discuss it. Through agreed procedures. And reach a decision. What is so hard to understand!!

Give me a single example of a sport venue that has been de-bolted.

And if the 'community' (who are they?) decide that existing trad routes at Attermire get de-bolted then it happens. Who's going to stop it?

I don't have a problem with retro bolting at suitable venues - and the Escarpment is eminently suitable for this. What sticks in the gullet is the high-handed attitude that allows a few people to decide which routes on whatever crags get transformed. This 'community' that you refer to is indeed flocking to the safe, easy alternative s that are being provided. Can't blame them really.

Speaking hypothetically again, if one or two sport routes began to appear on the Right Wing then got popular you'd have to accept them as a done deal. The FA has no right to object just as long as traffic increases (the community again). You'll accuse me of being alarmist but more and more of the climbing community have little to no knowledge or interest in the sport's traditions, ethics or history. They go from plastic straight to outdoors sport and see this as 'normal'. They will, in the not-too-distant future, be the inheritors and they will likely decide that trad limestone is rather quaint or just plain illogical. What will they care that Allan Austin carried prussik loops on Sundance Wall if they even know? Why didn't he just bolt it?

shhhh! I was trying not to get 'too' involved in this debate, I'm much calmer as a spectator.  Re: Intake, it's the first time I've ever sport climbed, fun but it did look fairly loose.

In reply to Rob Kelly:

I'm clearly not as academic as you, or maybe we have been reading different journals.

I feel for you, Mick! Just had a look at the same Attermire section and noticed that I also have a route there called Summertime Blues. The barstewards HAVEN'T bolted it. How insulting! It's as crap as anything else up there.

Jesus, this thread is going on a bit.

An impartial observation from someone who will climb in yorkshire if there are worthwhile  routes still to do for him.

What a load of egotistical gobshite from those who should know better.

Dislikes welcome if you think I mean you.

Rick

All right, Rick - I'll take your bait. As someone who's been around the block a few times and has been involved enough in the Lakes scene to bother recording some very good routes. Does that make you a 'gobshite' too? I mean your ego wouldn't have been happy to leave those routes unrecorded would it? Or perhaps the guide writers had to force all those tiresome details out of you.

What a load of rubbish. Many of the best and greatest Yorkshire pioneers operated at Attermire. Read the 2005 guide to get the historical picture: Hasket Smith,  Allan Austin, Brian Evans, Robin Barley, Ron Fawcett, Martin Berzins, Rob Gawthorpe, Chris Sowden and many, many others. All of them pushing the boat out and leaving a great legacy behind. Many of the aforementioned also performed at the highest standards on Lakes rock too as you're well aware. It may not be Scafell but Attermire has historical value even if it's not important to you.

That's a bit uncalled for. Andy Say raised a valid point, namely, has the BMC's policy on bolts been unceremoniously thrown in the bin? If you recall, it was drawn up as part of the truce in the bolting wars when anti-bolters like Ken Wilson roamed the country with crowbars and hacksaws and people like Gary Gibbo (bless his soul - I've just enjoyed his book) bolted anything that didn't move (and some quarries where everything was moving). The idea was that the BMC facilitated a democratic process whereby decisions on bolting could be made at well-publicised area meetings. OK, maybe it was a flawed process as many climbers won't go to area meetings but at least it was a process. The question, Andy Say was asking, and it is a valid one, is ' is the BMC bolting policy a dead duck and do we just trust local activists to get it right. What happens if they get it wrong?'

Gosh, what a bad tempered debate...!

How ironic, Neil. If the bolters had engaged in a debate some years ago do you think tempers would have become frayed?

If there was such a thing 30 years ago then times have moved on including the BMC financing replacement bolts.

As for Andy’s assertion about the BMC having a local Area process that ‘decides’ on retrobolting that isn’t a true reflection of how things work either. What the local Areas meetings provide is a potential forum where the protagonists can have it out if they wish and a vote. However, most of the time it plays out between activists at the crag, on DMs or sometimes online. 

The BMC is a representative body not a governing body. Thank god.

Despite the dislikes that your comment has gained on here, I think you're absolutely right.  

Unpopular view incoming, but I'm happy to admit I couldn't give a monkeys if a sport route I'm climbing was once climbed trad by somebody nearly 40 years ago.

There's precious little sport climbing in the uk, particularly at a low to medium grade, so I and (as the ascent figures show) many others) welcome new routes.  Clearly I'm not on board with retro bolting classics that still get a bunch of ascents, but for something that's sat there neglected for literally decades?   

I know issue here is lack of due process, thin end of the wedge, local BMC rep blah blah blah but if people begin to circumvent this process maybe it's time to look at the processes and procedures to streamline them and make them easier to negotiate so that people won't be tempted to bypass them? 

This would benefit both people looking to bolt (as the process of getting permission or denied will be easier) and people looking to protect trad routes as the likelehood of people bypassing the process will be reduced.

I think the rules and procedures in place aren't working for anyone right now, the trad brigade are paranoid about rouge retro bolting, the sport lot are crying out for more routes and have retro bolted and the BMC is stuck in the middle withe a roll of red tape in its hand.  We need to find a new system that puts trad climbers minds at ease allows a reasonable level of sport development and isn't too resource heavy.

Sadly, your apparent lack of concern and understanding seems to be rampant among large swathes of, not just climbers but society in general. Just witness the trashing of so much so soon after lockdown easing to illustrate this. You don't record any trad in your profile so if that's the case then you actually don't know what you are talking about nor what you are missing. Tell me if I'm mistaken. How many years can a trad route lie fallow before it's fair game?

There are thousands of sport routes and an ever expanding number of venues. The problem is the high handed approach of the bolters. Really, all it boils down to is not rules or BMC guidelines. Just simple courtesy and good manners. I would never bolt a route without at least some consultation with at least the FA and other interested climbers.

There already is guidance, beyond the obvious simple courtesy and consideration for other viewpoints. Some folks just aren't bothered.

Rouge? What? Call it what it is - a seeming disregard for anyone else's view?

I'd be very interested to hear from any of the bolting group(s) and get their thoughts. If you're out there reading this, genuinely please contribute. I can only speculate about your motivations and reasons from your actions.

How's this for a reasonable level of sport development?:

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

There, that's it.

In reply to Lankyman:

Now that’s an interesting question! 

For a mainstream graded route (say up to E3/4) the longer it goes unrepeated the weaker the defence for upholding its status as a trad route and I think it’s a fair challenge to trad climbers to say use it or lose it.

30 years unrepeated? 

I actually agree with what you've said here.  I admit I do have have a lack of concern for the trad mob's reaction to a neglected, rarely climbed and poorly regarded trad route getting retro bolted. 

And you are correct I have climbed very little trad so don't have a great deal of insight of what I'm missing.  Does that mean as a sport climber I'm not allowed an opinion on the future of bolting in this country (or not)?  Up thread you said you don't climb at all any more, so you're even less involved than I am, yet you're opinion is valid and mine not? 

Do I have a lack of understanding?  Possibly, a bit, but I am trying to empathise with trad climbers concerns and understand that if bolting got out of hand it would pose a threat to trad climbers passion.  So that's something I can understand, I would feel similarly aggreived if something threatened my passion.  It's for that reason that I'm here advocationg for a simplifying of the process, to make it better for both sides, rather than being out there with a drill and a "F*ck Trad" t-shirt. 

I genuinely don't know the answer to this question,  I suspect as there is no real answer to the question as there isn't an agreed consensus.  However I'd say the threshold (if one were ever to be have agreed) would be less than 1 ascent in 40 bloody years....

Yes I was thinking there must be some kind of Algorithm that would work. 

Obviously rarely repeated hard stuff isn't fair game for bolting as the number of repeats is so low due to it's difficulty. 

It's not like Indian Face is fair game for bolting as it gets so few repeats yet other lower grade stuff that has had a similar number in a similar time would be fair game as they're obviously just not that popular.

Also some routes (like Indian Face or even full crags such as Cloggy or Dinas Cromlech) should be granted protected status and never be bolted.

You're trying to empathise with trad climbers by refering to them as the trad mob and the trad brigade...........mmmmmm

E

I didn’t mean any offence, I’d quite happily refer to myself as a member of the sport mob or brigade.

A very interesting question without a clear answer. I can think of loads of rarely repeated trad routes at major Yorkshire venues (Malham, Kilnsey, Gordale) and would be horrified if they were bolted, regardless of time since last ascent.

Climbing has its fashions and phases and I'd like to think that trad will have its day again. However, I don't think that's an argument for treating all trad routes as sacrosanct. Let's face it, loads of routes are climbed simply because they've never been climbed before and to sate the lusty needs of the first ascensionist, not for some altruistic offering to future climbers, and this goes for routes of all grades. I can't remember the last time I went to an unfamiliar crag and climbed an un-starred route. Why would I?

On the flip side, we need to preserve the best of trad climbing in terms of the quality of routes and the wider climbing experience which does, unfortunately, mean climbing some iffy routes.

Quite how one decides what's for keeps is tricky but I don't think the current approach, whereby decisions are made unilaterally or by a small cabal, can be the best way.

I kind of agree and disagree. I've never thought the FA should have ownership of a route or have any particular say in status; I think those decisions belong to the climbing community.

However, I don't think a majority view is helpful in climbing. Just because risk-averse, geriatric and low-grade sport climbers outnumber trad climbers, doesn't give their view more weight. The Sun and the Daily Mail have the highest circulation of British newspapers, and look where that's got us.

Well put.

This is a genuine question: if these long-forgotten, loose, unstarred trad routes are so crap, then why are people interested in bolting them?

There's a real demand for more sport routes in the uk so sport climbers are grateful for any new routes, even if they are of relatively poor quality.

I am not sure you can describe the bolters as risk averse or even geriatric unless you are ignorant of their climbing pedigree.

I was referring to the 'communnity at large' mentioned by Will and I think my statement holds true.

I'm fully aware of the pedigree of the bolters. On a side note: I don't think a person's pedigree has any bearing on whether or not they have the right to act unilaterally. Just because I've onsighted loads of E6s doesn't mean I can retro-bolt shabby E1s with any more justification than the next person.

This was my original query. Apart from generalisations about "if no-one does them then they are fair game for development" I don't think I've actually had an answer to the actual question. Which is sad.

I focussed on those routes in particular because the current definitive guide indicates they have quality.  And, of course, this is not the end of the process. "Aladdin" (E1 5b, following a crack-line) on Moonshine Buttress apparently got bolted just last week.  That is another reason why I think a sensible process is needed; otherwise people without a background here might regard it as open season.

As an aside I do think that scrutiny of UKC logbooks to determine how popular a route is or how much credibility an individual had is pretty fallacious.  For myself I log a route the first time I do it as a record that I have.  So the first time I did e.g Moyer's Buttress I have logged it. Why on earth would I need to know I've managed a 2nd, 3rd, 4th......ascent.

And believe it or not there are many climbers who've never even heard of UKC 😉

I'm risk averse and geriatric but I do have a fair climbing pedigree 😆

And who exactly is keeping tally? Several people on this thread have been using UKC ticks as the gold standard. I asked the original question not asking for an actual figure since it's irrelevant. There are many routes that don't clock up that many ascents down the years but that's no reason for anyone to act unilaterally (which, once again is the actual problem that this thread is about).

Does this time limit also apply to Lakes routes - plenty of those never see traffic? Or is it just trad limestone on out-of-the-way crags? I'd imagine plenty stuff on the left side of Crummackdale must be up for reconfiguration by your estimate.

In all honesty I am amazed that it has taken so long for Attermire to be retrobolted. Clearly Victoria cave was done a good few years ago. 
 

I wonder what broke the taboo so to speak. Have they been saving up the cash for the bolts all these years.

So why now?

Aye. And the Cave routes caused a bit of an access issue at the time since the cave is possibly the earliest human settlement in the UK. I believe further development there is banned by the YDNP?

Sensitivity......

The other answer is work on the new guidebook.

They bolt Oystercatchers and blood will flow.

Shit. I've just looked. Mine is the first logged in '88 and only 3 more ticks since then.   Charge up them Hiltis.....

Me too, seems like an obvious candidate.

Given the main protagonists are some of the Old Guard, I have wondered if their enthusiasm for bolting is as much to do with the bolting as it is the climbing; a way of maintaining enthusiasm as well as a source of amenable climbing between trips to Kalymnos

And yeah, new guide books already cause a surge in activity; posterity in print.

'Trad mob' shows a degree of contempt but I'll try and not be patronising back. The whole argument is not about bolting 'poorly regarded' trad - that has been going on for 20+ years without a great deal of controversy. The trouble is, a small group of people appear to be bolting without any limitations or input from without.

You are perfectly entitled to an opinion. It would carry far greater weight if you built up a trad back catalogue to back up that opinion. I've got no right to dictate to anyone but I do have experience on all the crags affected. That doesn't give me rights but it means I can argue my case from a stronger position. Yes, I'm effectively retired as a climber but I ain't dead yet. I think I've already said upthread that it was this whole sad situation which partly decided me to get out. I didn't want to be part of the game any more. If I rant on a bit at times it's an indication of the strength of feeling that I have/had. I might even make a comeback one fine day!

Glad to hear you're trying to see all sides. Again, only getting into trad can really give you the best picture. And I'd recommend Attermire - sport and trad!

Again, who's keeping the tally?

You won't find my fingerprints on Oystercatchers. I knew my limitations. Race Day was my high point on that wall - even did it twice so it can't be that scary?

Shhh. It was a soft touch at E4 (though I didn't know that when I launched up them downward flakes) which is probably why it seems to be E3.

And Race Day was solid.

I posited 30 years to make a point not a rule. It seems to me that it is dog in a manager attitude to have third rate unclimbed routes with untouchable status which could provide plenty of ‘sport’ if bolted.

The Lakes routes - yes another interesting one as so many of the minor crags are overgrown. Even if cleaned up they would soon revert to nature as they wouldn’t get the traffic to keep them clean. If you bolted them however...

Just saying. Obviously up to the locals.

Apologies, as I said earlier I honestly didn't mean any offence with the Trad Mob label! 

I agree that people bolting away without limitations or input is a problem.  It causes anxiety for the trad enthusiasts (see, I'm learning!) which is only going to make them even more staunch in their lobbying against any sport development which is the opposite of what I, or any other sport climber wants.

Fair play, I do understand the depth of feeling.  I think it's important that retired climbers such as yourself have an input, but likewise we must remember that the decisions taken today will affect current active climbers and the next generation more than retired climbers so it's important all voices are heard.

I do wonder if you would advise a dedicated trad climber to get some more experience on sport to back up their opinion?  I'm pretty sure I know what the response would be however!

Certainly not ruled out getting into trad in the future.  London based at the moment though so not for now!

This is a good question.  As other have pointed out, there are plenty of climbers who never come on here, or other that only log their first ascent of a route and no repeats, so UKC ticks aren't the answer.  I don't know what the answer is but I think system and procedures that are in place right now aren't working for either.  That doesn't mean I know what the solution is, however!

I note that some of these retrobolted routes have had their star ratings upped from two to three stars. Apart from the rights and wrongs of the retrobolting (which is the thin end of a very dangerous, populist wedge), this is plain arrogant. The bolters are effectively saying that the routes are better bolted and patting themselves on the back for having "improved" the routes.

The young generation of sport climbers should broaden their vision and realise that they are trampling on precedent and creating a dangerous new precedent for the future of the sport. This will affect them long after the older generations have hung up their boots or died off.

Every other sport I know is very protective of its traditions and rules: football, tennis, the Olympics, etc, for very good reason.

Yes, I thought the 30 year figure wasn't totally serious. The problem isn't about third-rate routes though. I've clipped on lots of those and been delighted that they'd been transformed. Increasingly, it appears that anything and everything is up for grabs. Of course, everyone has an opinion as to what counts as a quality (or historic) route. That's why some real debate would help in my opinion. If the overall concensus was for a total grid bolt job all over I'd be sad but I'd have to lump it. I hope this isn't the future.

As you're undoubtedly aware Lakes volcanic rock (natural) is a sacred cow. But no cow is immortal. Will the cow that no longer gives milk be heading to the knackers yard one day? Will the goose be laying stainless steel eggs? Oh FFS, it's time for dinner!

Yes. With as widespread an input from as many interested folks as possible.

I'm sorry but this just isn't true.

Football has had numerous rule changes over the years - the backpass rule, kick offs needing to go forward, golden goal (since rescinded), what constitutes a foul, the offside rule, allowing of substitutes, allowing tactical substitutions, VAR, goaline technology the that all the kit including the ball being completely unrecognisable to that of even only 20 years ago.

The Olympics have changed markedly over the years - the events included, how those events are scored, what kit the competitors have been allowed to use... It's a constantly evolving event.

Tennis has changed too look back at the days of Fred Perry, or before that to long white trousers and jumpers, underarm serves using a white ball and a wooden raqcuet and compare it to today's game of carbon fibre racquets and hawkeye, umpire decision challenges and tell me it protective of it's rules and traditions.

Other sports are way, way more open and accepting to change than climbing.  Some of them even look to change their rules to make them more exciting (for example field Hockey is played in quarters rather than halves these days) and attract younger audiences and participants.  This seems to be the opposite of what climbing wants.     

I think you'll find very few pure trad climbers who don't like clipping bolts now and again.  It's not about one side or another for many of us.  It's about how appropriate and how much consensus was gained for bolting - especially crags with a longstanding tradition.

Bolting only ever increases and spreads over time, so it is very important to select crags and routes appropriately.   Once bolted, a crag is unlikely to be debolted.

As for the starring - I see your point, but the star rating of a route is a subjective rating.

Story time - I did a job for a while where people had to watch tennis matches and pick out the 3 or 4 best shots for a highlights show (funnily enough they were given a 1-3 star rating).  Sometimes the matches were hugely entertaining so the 3 star point was a amazing long and entertaining rally other times it was a dull as dishwater match so the 3 star shot was rubbish.  In both cases the logger had it correct but what counted as a 3 star in one match was totally different to a 3 star in another.

Perhaps given the relative quality and quantity of sport routes in the uk compared to trad, what gets 0 stars as a trad route gets more stars as a sport route as compared to the other sport routes available it's really not too bad, however compared to the other trad routes it's awful?!

Clearly Attermire trad routes are neglected these days. If you look at Ambler Gambler 2 star E3 in the log books, it got done for the first time in 3 years and they had to clean from above to do it. If routes like this are not getting climbed, no body is going to bother to walk to the far bits to climb crap trad routes.

This time last year I would not have considered climbing on Attermire Escarpment. The routes seldom climbed to say the least, were on the whole choss.  These ‘new’ sport lines are all excellent and well worth climbing, though the more recently and most frequently climbed trad lines remain as trad. 

I have been twice and both times busy with climbers enjoying the routes as opposed to no one and tumbleweed!
I would like to express my thanks and appreciation to Bob, Dave, Mark, Jerry et all for their time and effort bolting and developing this great ‘new’ venue.

Clearly loads of people, possibly the majority, don't bother with online logbooks. If you look at Ambler Gambler 2 star E3 in the log books, it got done for the first time in 3 years ....

Fixed that for you.  Your evidence can mean a couple of things

Aye. And 'no-one' has led Quad Crack in 5 years.....

Another strangeness is that, given the motive of improving poor routes, the trad routes that haven't been bolted on the Escarpment have no quality stars and are low grade. The trad routes that were starred have been bolted.  Last week an unstarred E1 suddenly became a two star sport route overnight 😆

I’m not surprised. You only have to look at the number of aided ascents of charming crack to understand that not many can crack climb any more. Maybe it’s because of all these low grade sports routes.

Who bolted Bob Larkins route “Bobs your uncle”?

Bob Larkin did, says it all really 🥳

I suspect you won't find that many dedicated trad climbers (I'm not really sure what 'dedicated' means but lets imagine the type of climber who probably averages a trip out once a week across the year) in the UK who don't do both. I climb with a few people who don't climb much sport but out of the 'lifers' they are a minority (Dave G, looking at you! ) but most of my friends who are regulars do both, and many who don't climb much sport in the UK nowadays have climbed on bolts in other countries in the past, often to a respectable level.

It seems strongly that people climbing in the mid E grades all sport climb as well, but even at my admittedly pretty poor level you can be puntering around up to VS at Stanage on an evening then heading to Horseshoe to try and tick every route below 6a at the weekend (there's a surprising number of them! It's a good excuse not to try too hard and get scared falling off 6as in my case). 

I think people like you describe yourself, having just climbed sport but having climbed for a respectable number of years, are a relatively new phenomenon - just because going back to the 90s, and I guess some of the 00s too, for many of us there just wasn't much sport climbing available, particularly not at lower and mid grades.

I lived in Scotland for a chunk of the 90s, and the sports routes that there were, were all very hard upper grade stuff. When did Portland get the majority of its routes bolted? Late 90s, early 00s? Yorkshire Limestone away from the Malham and Kilnsey mega routes - early this century wasn't it?

Genuine question as I've not climbed there - how are the routes now bolted any less choss than when they were trad routes? Did a whole lot of crow-barring off loose bit go on with the bolting?

It's just a couple of times now people have said the trad routes were choss but they're not choss now they're bolted. I don't get how bolts going in stops routes being loose? 

I thought somewhere up thread it was suggested that first ascentionists should have no say in the matter (despite the BMC position). 😉

Aside from that there is a good philosophical debate to be had about 'what' a route is and just who 'owns' it. If it exists.

In one sense a route, especially a trad route, is just an abstract concept: a notional linking of features on a rock face. It only exists in people's minds.  Bolts do tend to make the line 'concrete' but even then you don't have to link them in any particular sequence or direction.

And does that 'concept' belong to the creators of the notional line or does it immediately become 'common property'?  And does it 'belong' to locals or everyone? Only people who have done 'it', or can we include those who aspire to 'it'. Or even the whole climbing population, especially if it's iconic. Who 'owns' Cenotaph Corner / Great Western / Wombat or, indeed, Raindogs?  Who has the right to alter those 'concepts' by chipping, bolting or debolting.

I fear I digress......... 🤔

I did not clean or were involved in cleaning these routes. But it's clear that loose holds have been removed, there are the odd ones left and at least one block marked with red paint. Also the midway ledge on Moonshine Buttress has had the soil and grass removed.

Last night I was at Old Mans Crag, Trollers. These routes had pretty much zero traffic but since cleaning and bolting the crag offers some fine lines and is well worthwhile climbing at.

I believe 200+ copies of the Limestone supplement have been sold which is a testament in itself to the popularity of mid grade sport climbing in Yorkshire. With Spain on hold for the coming months (personal preference) and climbing walls still closed these venues will become more and ever popular.

I think you are on to something there. I'm old enough to remember when the first bolted routes were put up in the 80s and they were all hard - basically they started where the hardest trad routes finished.  Scroll forward a few decades and, influenced by climbing walls, you started getting easier and easier routes bolted and sport became available to the average punter. Last year, I was sitting on a rock at Pandy Quarry, eating my butties and watching the stream of sport 6a punters arriving. And arriving. And arriving. It reminded me of the stream of trad VS punters arriving at Stanage. Probably the same people! Me included now. It's convenient and it's popular. I think we've just got to live with it. After all, it's just ordinary folk having some fun in the open air.

The popularity thing is interesting - I've only done one route on Malham, a sev on the left wing done with one of the worst hangovers I remember having in my life! It gets two stars, it's a severe and its at Malham - you would think it would be absolutely mega popular! But it has in the UKC logbook 52 ascents, going back to 1966 - that's nothing compared to a two star severe at Stanage or probably Almscliff. I remember it being a bit shit to be honest - brambles and so on, but that might have been the hangover. Is 52 logged ascents enough to mean it shouldn't be retroed? I'm sure if there was a two star (or maybe 3 star as they seem to get more stars once bolted) 4a at Malham it would get tonnes of ascents. But no one seems to be suggesting bolting those line despite Malham being I guess the best sport cliff in the UK.

It's interesting that down here in the Peak it seems to be the vast majority of low and mid grade sport being bolted is just rock that hasn't been climbed on before. I know there are a few routes at Harpur Hill and Horseshoe that had been climbed as trad before being bolted, but Gary Gibson and other developers have left a number of pre-existing trad routes in otherwise sport venues and indeed, have climbed a number of lines as trad themselves when I guess it just seemed unnecessary to bolt them as they were solid crack lines so natural trad routes. I suspect away from what used to be "hybrid" crags with thread and pegs etc. with the hard routes (Cheedale area mainly) of the "newer" easy and mid-grade sports routes probably 1 percent are retrobolted trad routes? On Yorkshire limestone is there essentially no unclimbed rock? As it seems that retro-bolting pre-existing trad routes seems to happen there quite a lot.

Just out of interest - is Pandy Quarry the one somewhere near the English border, somewhere between Llangollen and Owestry? I thought it was super banned? I climbed at Pandy crag if I'm not totally mixing things up and the Quarry is in the guide I have - but at least then it seemed people got into trouble for going!

Different one.   It’s near Mold. Retrobolted by Harold Walmsley. 

Yes, the one near Mold. 'Retrobolted' is a misnomer as I don't think there were any trad routes there. Harold Walmsley is very much in the traditionalist style and wouldn't knowingly retrobolt trad routes. It took a lot of cleaning too. What people tend to forget that it often takes a lot of hard work and time, not to mention, expense, to bolt a route.

I'm loathe to come back to this thread but some of the reasoning around what should be bolted and what shouldn't is a bit disturbing to me. In particular, Emily's pointing out that in a community vote the desire for 6th grade sport routes would always trump (in terms of sheer numbers) the desire for mid-grade trad. I originally posted because I thought it was madness to object so strongly, on the grounds that no former trad route should be retro-bolted, to the Escarpment being bolted, yet to not have much to say about numerous other Yorkshire venues. The trad routes at Gigg North and Gigg South which were retroed were not the cream, but they were eminently better than the Escarpment's routes. Most of the retroing at those venues is pretty sensible, but there are uncomfortable losses that go with it - as Karl points out, the effective loss of The Ramp is significant.

Generating more traffic can never be used as the sole justification for retrobolting. If that is the only reasoning in the argument then everything should be bolted - limestone, mountain rock, grit. Everything. There is almost no route in the UK which would not get more traffic as a sport route. People often complain about there not being much quality 6th grade sport. It's because it's all trad. Imagine Right Wall opened up as a 6c. The queues would stretch to the road. Imagine the Right Wing of Malham drilled. It would immediately become the best venue for the sub 7 and low 7s climber (probably) in the country. Given the demand for 6th grade sport climbing, it cannot be that through a mere count of numbers the desire of the majority is allowed to abuse a minority.

For that reason, there must be other factors that determine whether something is suitable for retro-ing. On Yorkshire limestone it will generally come down to rock quality. The Escarpment was never good quality rock and years of neglect and multiple seasons of freeze-thaw on fractured rock meant that the bolting team levered off lots and lots of choss. The same can't be said for the rest of the trad sections of Attermire (with the possible exception of the Neb). Quad Crack might only get a few ascents, but it's on perfect rock and is a fantastic line (I need to get round to falling off it sometime). Amber Gambler also has great quality rock until the last couple of metres when a little care is required (but you're above bomber wires at this point). Dave had to create a little tunnel through the ivy cornice at the top but this wasn't much effort at all for such a classic route.

Very well summarised. Pretty much what I was trying to allude to earlier in this thread but put far better.

Yes you're absolutely right, although I'm no young buck (I'll be 40 next year) I got into climbing relatively late in life and have followed a similar path to many people who have got into it in more recent years - straight from the climbing wall to the sport crag.

No doubt had I have got into climbing in my teens my path into climbing would have looked much different, particularly as I grew up in the North East where there was little or no indoor or sport climbing in the 90s.

We're all a product of our environment but I like to think I have tried to educate myself about the history and culture of climbing.  I've read good amount of climbing and mountaineering literature, I'm on here a lot and I know who Joe Browns, Don Whillans and Royal Robins were!  

Little or no sport maybe, little or no indoor - hmmmm.

Looking at the practicalities of developing a new crag and disregarding any ethical issues, there are different considerations for trad or bolted routes.

For a trad route, you want a logical combination of holds and protection possibilities.

For a bolted route, you need a logical line of holds and rock suitable for bolt placement. There is a lot of responsibility on the bolter to choose the optimum bolt position not only for secure placements but also the quality of the resulting climbing experience.

Retro bolted routes often redefine the original trad line.

Developed from scratch , a sport crag would have significantly  different lines to if it was started as  a  trad venue.

Very well put.

One I've always thought about is Gaia at Black Rocks.  Put a few bolts in that and it would go from a legendary and bloody intimidating route that gets a few ascents a year by absolute wads to a sport route with people bouncing on the bolts of week in week out.

This, of course, must never be allowed to happen and even if it did the bolts would rightly be chopped before the drill bit had cooled!

So yes, I absolutely agree that the wants of the many must not dictate the action taken!

If I'm honest I'm guessing - I wasn't into climbing when I lived up there so wouldn't have had a clue what indoor was available in the mid 90s.  I'm guessing there may have been one place in Newcastle?  Anyone know?

I see Durham (where I'm from) has a an indoor bouldering place now, that certainly wasn't there back in my day.

It's interesting that you point this out as it was giving me a headache yesterday. I spent more time than I care to admit to walking along the bottom of Giggleswick South and drawing lines and belay positions on my topo printouts for the new guidebook. I'd noticed in the UKC logbooks that somebody had said Pensile Wall (an old E1) had been retrobolted but I was scratching my head because I couldn't see a line of bolts to the left of Bonhomie.

The 2005 Yorkshire Limestone guide wasn't much help. It eventually clicked that the sport route we now call Bonhomie (itself a retro'd trad route of the same name) actually starts up Pensile Wall. The route that we now call Diversion uses the start that the trad route Bonhomie used. Sport development quite often overwrites a trad cliff with something similar but different. Not necessarily a problem in itself but it can be confusing if you're trying to piece together how a bit of rock has changed over time!

I am surprised: Quad Crack was HVS when I did it in 1970. What's happened to it! Or has the grade creep intimidated people?

Perhaps because nobody had used the Extreme grade in the area at that time. Would you have Bliss graded HVS as well?

People go climbing walls where they get fit and strong. So they no longer need to find jams rest on and therefore they are not so great at jamming.

I’m fairly sure that there were routes done in Pandy Quarry in the early 1970’s. I think there was a report in Rocksport about them.

So you are a member of the guidebook team that is recording this retro'ing and conversion from trad to sport?

You might have declared an interest?

Well, there was the Berghaus wall in Eldon square that started operating 1990 iirc.  At the time this was the best bouldering wall in the UK - still is in my opinion - not that I'm biased

Then there was the Cramlington wall - nice provided it didn't coincide with the kiddy "free expression" workshop adjacent.  Still have tinnitus from that.

I think the rather excellent Newton Aycliffe Rockantics wall dates from late 90s - but prepared to be corrected on that.

And of course who can forget the wall in Sunderland's Crowtree leisure centre (I'd like to forget, but the nightmares still wake me up on occasion).

I'm sure there were others, but these were the ones I frequented when scaring the crap out of myself at Crag Lough and The Wanneys got too much to bear ....

Changing styles. You only have to look at the number of what were considered bog standard VS grit slabs that now get E1/2 because you can't place cams. Once, if there was no gear there was no gear and you just got on with it.

Some while back a route setter in an international competition threw in an overhanging jamming crack. Many top climbers stuffed!

Having said that Yorkshire WAS bloody notorious! Austin's maxim was if you could jump off and walk away it was only VS.  And I vividly remember introducing a Peak mate to the VS routes of The Padder and Whaup Edge at Eastby....... 😂

I can't think why it would have been relevant to mention it. Where is the declarable interest?

Wow that’s quite a bit more than I expected. Must have been to Eldon Square hundreds of times when I was a kid but I never saw a climbing wall.  I might have wanted to have a go if only I’d seen it!  Whereabouts was it?

I think being from Durham has clouded my judgement of the North East in the 90s. I love Durham but really the only two activities for teens were the ice rink and hanging around the bus station, then you get older and there’s drink. Thankfully I got into skateboarding so I found something at least!

Tell me more about the Sunderland leisure centre, that sounds like the start of some tales?!?!

I think that is the other Pandy Quarry near Chirk.

It is in the leisure centre (I think it's still there - I no longer live in Newcastle).  It was pretty awesome when it opened.  About 18 feet high and bendecrete (I think) simulating mostly overhanging limestone. I've visited a few walls that try to simulate rock, and this one is in my opinion by far the best.

You can always go and look at the "fine pair of knockers" that adorn the cathedral.

Good old Crowtree.  For real adventure you couldn't beat the journey from car park to entrance.  Even odds on being mugged.  Always made sure I went in a mates car, as even higher odds on it being twoked during the stay.  The wall itself wasn't without interest.  The designer must have had an odd idea about how rock climbing worked, as all the holds appeared to be manufactured with polished flint.  Good exercise for climbing on wet slate I guess.  On the plus side it did have platforms installed at intervals up the wall that allowed you to practise multipitch stuff.  And it had slots in the wall that you could use to practise nut placements.  

Only had one trip to Cramlington wall and was put off by the (presumably) local who did the route I was looking at upside down I.e. feet first. Decided not to show myself up by going back so stuck to climbing at Causey when the weather allowed. Moved on to Eldon Wall when I discovered it. 

When I arrived in Leeds in 1969, my climbing mates and I quickly got used to the Yorkshire grades. We had plenty of classic VS's with which to calibrate our grading scale, such as Great Western, Demon Wall, Overhanging Groove and Whaup Edge on Gritstone and Crossbones on Limestone. There were also some great, classic Hard VS's, such as Wombat and the Carnages. When we branched out to the Lake District and North Wales after that, we couldn't believe how easy the routes were, for their grades, by comparison!

ps. Still a bit surprised at Quad Crack going the whole way from HVS to E3.

Maybe that one had been set by someone with designs on Australia Crack at Kyloe.  I think the NMC set most of the routes. 

Our most memorable time there was when we got to share the space with the kiddies "free expression" group, whom we were separated from by a low curtain.  Their modus operandi was to be encouraged by the adult to scream at the top of their lungs and run around like lunatics.  And why not - I often feel like doing that.  It was just a little distracting though, and pretty sure the level of decibels generated would result in some sort of H&S fine nowadays.  The funny thing though was that when teacher became aware of our presence she came over to us and told us off for being there and for putting off the kiddies!

Hi Neil. Fancy a trip to Attermire sometime and a catch up? 

I may be wrong but cannot recall any debate on UKC about Yorkshire bolting policy and practice since I started looking on here circa 2008.

Has it been a contentious issue at the Yorkshire area meetings?

Definately, I'll contact you.

A few years ago (circa five??) on here another thread branched off into concerns about Yorkshire bolting policy and practice. The two 'conversations' were going on at once. I suggested a separate thread specifically about the concerns. This didn't happen. I don't think there was any sinister reason for it not happening (no conspiracy theories, please!), it just didn't. I wondered whether the concerns would be raised further down the line. And now they have been. 

Because I'd been away from Yorkshire for so long (sigh!) clearly I was hopelessly out of touch with what was happening so had little to contribute and didn't want to initiate the thread. With hindsight, this may have been a mistake - but we are where we are.

Hope this makes some kind of sense!  (At times, my ramblings confuse even me.)

Mick

I've a few points to make on this.

I haven't climbed any of these routes but know enough on the history of bolting in Yorkshire and that debates like this generate strong feelings on either side.

I think bypassing the BMC Area meeting was a bad idea. Past bolting discussions led to reasonable balanced outcomes. This bolting could and should be discussed retrospectively. 

The BMC allows issues to be raised to local areas by emailing or phoning local volunteer officers or just asking local activists to raise it. Covid has shown how much can be done online. I listened to Steve's excellent Pembroke briefing online yesterday which gets a much wider audience than the physical area meeting ever would.

UKC logbooks simply won't record the vast majority of trad ascents in the area as the keanest trad climbers (the only ones likely to be there before the bolting) most often don't use it, and there is still 'bad blood' with some activists in Yorks and Lancs with Rockfax/UKC who won't ever use the database (Alan is still referred to as 'the devil' by some, and not as a joke). From my YMC grit guide work, where routes do get regular traffic, away from classics UKC logbook data (ascents and grade votes) were very unreliable 'picture' of reality of climbing there and only a few regularly made useful comments where information was faulty (like Simon Caldwell).

Back into the fray......I like bolt routes and I like trad. I even like climbing both styles on the same day at the same crag. As a 'twice a year trad dad' I expect that I diverge from the majority here in this acrimonious, polarised debate. When I climb at Llanymynech Quarry or Stoney or Craig Arthur or even Attermire I can indulge these tendencies. I'm looking forward to climbing at Intake soon  to clip bolts and place wires and cams. 

So to go back to an earlier post, I was disappointed to find on Tuesday that a HVS 5a I led 12 years ago is now a bolted line. It rankles since there are numerous cracks and flakes to place protection. The route has been extended, but guess what....it's the same route I climbed last time! There's no fundamental change in the quality of the rock to make it a 3* classic. In fact it's a devalued currency that values bolts over natural protection. If it relied on rusty old fixed gear and rotting threads then I wouldn't hesitate to applaud the retro-bolters for being sensible.

I started my first post by showing gratitude to the bolting team for the numerous additions they have created. All I ask respectfully, is that you respect other styles of climbing, accept that they are not mutually exclusive, set a good example to climbers new to the 'sport', avoid a UKC popularity ratings system to justify bolting trad routes. In short celebrate the diversity of climbing. I record a tiny fraction of climbs I've done on UKC btw. 

One last thought. Has anyone heard of Natural England? The caving community has a very carefully thought out bolting policy. In fact the resin p-bolts have to be removable. Has anyone even considered the visual impact of limestone rock faces closely studded with bolts, sometimes less than 1m apart? I would hate to see climbing curtailed on environmental grounds. There are parts of Llanymynech that have been debolted, so it's not a one way process. 

 "I vividly remember introducing a Peak mate to the VS routes of The Padder and Whaup Edge at Eastby....... 😂""

Times change.... in checking for the latest guides I was not convinced, by YMC standards, the suggestions that Whaup Edge should be upgraded to HVS (in contrast to many other bold VS climbs I felt should be upgraded) but I was sure The Padder was no harder than the proposed downgrade which was agreed to the current grade of E1.

At the risk of thread creep it was brought up on here a few months back that the quarried gritstone edge of Halton Heights in Yorkshire had bolts placed upon it.

I live a long way from the dubious delights of Halton Heights at the moment so have not been to check it out myself but it would seem to cross a line.

If this is the case then it would seem that indiscriminate bolting is taking place in Yorkshire at the moment and the concept of seeking wider approval for such actions is breaking down.

Halton Heights? I find that really hard to believe! There ARE bouldering routes given F grades - could that be causing confusion?

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/halton_heights-8446

"I was disappointed to find on Tuesday that a HVS 5a I led 12 years ago is now a bolted line. It rankles since there are numerous cracks and flakes to place protection. The route has been extended, but guess what....it's the same route I climbed last time! There's no fundamental change in the quality of the rock to make it a 3* classic."

That IS a shame. And begs the question of whether routes that can be easily and safely protected with leader placed protection should actually be bolted.  Why do you NEED bolts in that situation?

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/rock_talk/halton_heights_-_new_bolts-7198...

As the thread was closed someone has recently dropped me an email to confirm that they saw two lines of four bolts, one on a VS and one on HVS.

FFS.

I think the ignoring of the BMC process is simply shite.

And we are not talking one route. We are talking about over 10 trad routes (see my original post for the starred routes involved) some of which have been 're-routed' in the interests of a nice 'sport line'.

And it is still happening. A trad E1 (on solid rock!) got bolted last week. No discussion. No consultation.  You got a drill? Go for it....

Hey Andy, off to clip more retro bolts at Stony Bank tomorrow. Great and very popular crag since the bolts went in. Fine routes in a fine position😎
 

Moving with the times...unlike the dinosaurs 😉

Well I am off to the Chew, bolts sap your confidence. Keeping the faith.

😂

Please can a disliker explain what he/her dislikes about what Andy is saying (no pun intended)?

To be honest I didn't think there had been that much retro-bolting at Stoney Bank - more filling the gaps.  I, obviously, was wrong. I'm intrigued by the six trad routes that have been 'dissapeared' and just don't show on UKC but seem to have been replaced and renamed by sport routes.

Come on. It was never, ever a 'great crag' 😆

Actually I'm quite surprised. Chatting to a friend spurred me to do a bit of comparison between the 2005 YMC guide and UKC.  Ignoring those crags that have been developed exclusively for sport climbing the following crags have seen retro-bolting of trad routes. I don't know if any consultation or discussion was carried out:

Attermire

Giggleswick North

Giggleswick South

High Stoney Bank

Langcliffe Skyline

Low Stoney Bank

Moughton Nab

Robin Proctor's Scar

Trollers Gill

Trow Gill.

Let's not forget Foredale Quarry - death through popularity....

I wonder which crag is next on the Sport Plan. 🙄

we were at Low Stony, that is a great crag.

To be honest Low Stony is probably the better crag for Sport. Not sure how much is retro.

High Stony looked to be busy beyond belief, 40 there. Too busy but routes getting done.

40+ people at High Stony does beg one question, even if outdoors...

... Track & Trace?
I for one wasn’t going down into a potential Covit-19 cauldron. 

Andy's concern is a fair one that deserves more than a whole bunch of dislikes, considering that "the BMC is firmly opposed to retrospective bolting (i.e. changing the character of a route by placing fixed equipment where none was previously used). Climbs should only be re-equipped on a basis of common consent established at open forums."

There are also the concerns of other user's of the outdoors (especially National Parks) to consider. 

I pointed these crags and this activity out to you at the start of the thread. You said it didn't bother you.

John, I agree with Andy insofar as retro-bolting should really go through the proper channels. But his jumped-to conclusions often seem to be based on profound ignorance, and he doesn't seem to have a care for what the facts may be (i.e. an assertion that I or anybody else has a declarable interest in routes being retro-bolted). A lot of Andy's (and other's) comments are very sneering indeed which is probably why people are hitting dislike.

Comments like "High Stony Bank was never a great crag" in particular. Actually, some of the rock there is very good. The wall that Jocasta and Oedipus are on is like someone has taken a little sliver of Ceuse and dropped it into the Dales. The other rock isn't the best for trad climbing on but when you're not forever rattling offsets into snappy flakes, the climbing on the lines that have been retroed is nice - particularly at the grade. The grade is key. 6a's are rarely going to be able to stand shoulder to shoulder with the El Cap's and Flatangers of this world, but that doesn't mean that there isn't quality to be found there, relative to the grade.

Basically, this thread at times reads as gout-ridden ancients who are seething that those who are still going out climbing might be doing it differently to how it was done when they weren't confined to their armchairs. It's mildly pathetic.

Quite possibly, Will.,

And if this isn't a prime example of ' very sneering indeed' then what is? I and a few others on this topic have tried to make valid points and then predictably the offensive, provocative and childish responses start to come in. I'm not surprised it rapidly polarises into a 'them and us' situation when folks descend to this level of debate.

Your comments have been quite different, Karl. I might not always agree with you, but you clearly understand the situation that you're talking about and your comments, particularly about the Skyline, have been thought provoking.

Andy, on the other hand, seems to only just be realising, after over 100 posts on a thread that he started, that there has been a bit of bolting going on in Yorkshire for the past couple of decades - something I've pointed out in a number of other posts.

So presumably this bolting malarky will be discussed at the Yorkshire area BMC .

My 2p as an interested outsider .

Make sure you define the meaning of certain terms before you start.

Bolting, retro bolting, equiping , reequiping , rebolting etc can have  different meanings to the various parties engaged in a debate. It can all get out of hand until you realise you may all be in agreement but just using the same words for different meanings.

Another is to think how the crags would have been developed if they were discovered now not in the 50's.

Considering AS comments on Foredale Qy then it is a fair bet he is upto speed.

To be fair (if you want to be) you mentioned Trollers and Trow. Now that IS ancient history!

Well I think I have presented facts and my opinion rather than jumping to conclusions.  If I've suggested, in error, routes that have been retro'ed that haven't I'd be happy for you to put the record straight. Indeed any factual inaccuracy is fair game for correction.  And in terms of 'sneering', again, feel to point out my where I've transgressed.  It may be my writing style...?

Maybe I've set my sights to high. Malham, Foredale, Kilnsey are great crags, in my opinion. The Stoney Bank crags don't really compare, do they?

Now that's just not nice, is it?  I'm unhappy to admit that I no longer climb as hard as I used to. I do still get out a bit though and get my particular buzz from pottering around in new and obscure places. And I can empathise with the young guns fuming at the dead hand of geriatrics stopping the progress they want.  I would suggest, however, that opinions from those with a breadth of experience shouldn't automatically be discounted.

I'm not dead yet😳

Finally, in my defence, I don't think that anywhere on this thread (I'm in a phone, away from home; I'm not going to read it all again) have I denigrated the development of bolted sport routes. I've done enough to realise that would be sheer hypocrisy 😉. I'm not trying to 'stop' bolted sport climbs!

I AM querying the retro-bolting of established trad routes as a part of that process. If we take Attermire as a case study if there had been no retro'ing we would still have some 50 bolted sport routes.

So it's the 'why'?

And I do get that routes change. If all the placements on a route depended on a flake that dropped off or pegs that have rotted then there is surely a case to be made - as happened at Farletter for example. But I, nor anyone else, will ever get to hear the reasons for these routes before the event.

So I'm also interested in the 'how'.

I can completely understand that some of these questions can be a bit awkward 😆. 

But it is instructive how many dislikes you get for simply asking those awkward questions, innit.

Sneery rant over 😉

Sorry if this is late but just re-read your post and noticed the above. When I began climbing 'seriously' in the early eighties I always regarded myself as a caver who climbed and that's pretty much how it stayed until I stopped caving about 15 years ago. I was in on the introduction of resin p-bolts in Yorkshire caves and went on a CNCC course at Yordas Cave. They were a big improvement over the old Dave Elliot 'red bolts' (8mm 'spits' that we used to carry down each trip and screw into the placements at each pitch head). What I haven't heard of is this removable requirement from Natural England. All the resin p-bolts I ever encountered were in for ever effectively. I remember coming across a wobbly one above a pitch in Gaping Gill where  three of us were yanking and twisting it all over to try and get it out. Not without more muscle than we could summon! Have bolting techniques changed since then? I watched a clip recently of an SRT trip down Juniper Gulf and it seemed to be excessively over-bolted to my eyes. The exposed 'bad step' traverse heading out to pitch 4 was roped all the way. Maybe cavers have become more risk averse lately as well.

To be fair, with F and G being next to each other on a qwerty keyboard , you may have just had a fat finger moment.

🙄. Too bloody right. I did, of course, mean Goredale. Foredale was OKish but not exactly 'great'!

Is Goredale a new crag 😉

I think the sponsor changed the name slightly, Tim.

All right!

I'm tired. The phone is small. I've got big fingers.

Of course; I meant Gorthall.

Couldn’t resist sorry