Are Walkie Talkies Aid?

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 Paul Sagar 26 Mar 2021

Thinking of buying these:

https://rockytalkie.com/products/rocky-talkie

But part of me says: that's definitely cheating.

Discuss

9
 Jamie Wakeham 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Paul Sagar:

190USD for a pair of walkie talkies, the USP of which is that they have a built in karabiner?

I have a pair that I'll use if I'm working with novices or if I know that I'm likely go to out of sight on long pitches, and they can be useful, but I paid somewhat less than that!

1
 ianstevens 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> 190USD for a pair of walkie talkies, the USP of which is that they have a built in karabiner?

Designed for adventure (tm)

 Andy Hardy 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Should we ask Jesse Dufton?

🤔😉

1
 Dave Cundy 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I used one 15 years ago when my mate abseiled down Gaping Ghyll.  I followed him after he'd called to say he was established on the half-way ledge.  Invaluable in that situation.

Otherwise, i'd just have waited 30 minutes and hoped for the best.  Which ends badly on the odd occasion....

 HeMa 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Paul Sagar:

With walkie talkies, can you make harder moves? Or bolder moves?

what about modern climbing shoes (vs. Hobnail boots) or microcams that actually protect the pitch making it less bold. 
 

So which is actually cheating

 elliptic 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Paul Sagar:

If you want to use those in the UK or Europe then they're definitely cheating! 

(They're FRS not PMR446 so the wrong frequencies to be legal this side of the Atlantic...)

 Jamie Wakeham 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I've just looked it up - mine were £45, about 12 years ago, and are still fine having been used a few times a year since then.  You don't need crazy powerful transmitters for huge range - for climbing purposes, if the other set is more than 60m away then something's probably gone very wrong..!

I generally keep mine in a breast pocket of a jacket with the zip a few cm open - that's enough to press the button through the fabric of the jacket and hear the speaker.

Post edited at 09:55
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Whatever happened to the “talking” rope?

2
 petegunn 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Christheclimber:

Just take two cups and pull the rope tight

 henwardian 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> 190USD for a pair of walkie talkies, the USP of which is that they have a built in karabiner?

This is exactly what I thought. I bought a pair years ago for about 20 quid and I have no doubt that they cost less than that now. Without even looking, I'd be surprised if you couldn't find a pair for a tenner or less on Amazon.

 Neil Williams 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Is it?  Sounds a reasonable safety option in some cases, just an upgrade on tugging the rope or shouting.

Is modern safety kit cheating and we should all use hemp rope and shoulder belays?

PMR446 radios cost next to nothing, though, wouldn't go for climbing-specific ones.

Post edited at 10:17
 Andy Clarke 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Paul Sagar:

We found walkie-talkies extremely useful during a fairly wild weather week on Lundy. We wouldn't have heard a word from each other above the crashing waves and howling winds without them on some days. As for the old six tugs on the rope, you can forget that when there's 50m of it out and the wind off the Atlantic blowing it sideways. They were something of a pain to operate - I kept turning mine on at inopportune moments - but then they were only a few quid from Aldi.

Cheating? Maybe - but I find tiny ways to do that all the time anyway. I call it interpreting the rules. Which I mostly make up myself.

 colinakmc 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I recall years ago traversing the Aonach Eagach at about the same rate as a group using these things to talk entirely pointlessly either from one end of said group to the other, or to th minibus driver in the Glen. Totally naff, utter nuisance.

I can see the point in a force 8 hoolie on a rock face, but they’d end up being misused.

2
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> Thinking of buying these:

> But part of me says: that's definitely cheating.

> Discuss

No, but I suspect you know that.  They are extra weight to carry though.

OP Paul Sagar 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I wasn't entirely serious about spending $$$ on American imports. But a couple of friends who used cheapo walkie-talkies found that they just kept turning themselves on in their pockets, leading to confusion and eventually battery-drain.

I do think a decent-quality pair in e.g. the Alps would be a sensible investment. Probably less necessary at Stanage.

 PaulW 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Used to carry them all the time on sea cliffs, especially multi pitch stuff. With the extra noise from the water it just took the uncertainty out of the "surely they must be at the belay now" question

 alexm198 26 Mar 2021
In reply to HeMa:

Huh, good point. I can also make harder and bolder moves if I'm not carrying a piano up the route. I guess choosing not to carry a piano is aid!

 drconline 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Of course they aren't cheating and yes they can really help with communication when it's windy (always in Scotland?) or on a long route.

As others have said make sure you get a UK licenced model (PMR446) so you're on the right frequency band.

Also try to pick a model with button guards - we have some ancient Cobra units that beep every time they jiggle in your rucksack or pocket!!

 wercat 26 Mar 2021
In reply to drconline:

PMR446 is a CEPT standard, which is why they are available to use in the UK.   The standard has the advantage that they can thus be used licence free in many European countries - we took them to Austria in 2001 which allowed comms from the Wildespitze to Vent, very useful.  Also handy in Switzerland many times.

The problem with crappy cheap ones is that these might well have the same radio performance they can become useless by being unreliable in the damp or may have very poor ergonomics - changing channel in the pocket etc etc.  You don't need to pay a fortune - we still use ancient 1st generation 446 Motorola TA200s.

Like all radios you need to be careful with batteries - over use and exhausting batteries or not knowing battery state before taking out to use is probably one of the main reasons for failure.

Post edited at 12:31
 Basemetal 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Worth looking for a PMR446 pair with hands free voice activation. I bought a pair of Cobra MicroTalk in 1986 and they're still useable. (though I don't usually carry them they would be an option for some hill or route logistic puzzles).  

An Apple style ear bud mic plugs into a standard socket and works  the voice activation pretty well with minimal faff.

 wercat 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Basemetal:

PMR446 was introduced in the late 90s - could yours be CBs?

I must say I totally discounted them for the first few years but when we got some Mororolas half price in a TANDY closing down sale I was quite astounded at how good the range was and how reliable if used with a bit of radio knowledge.

I'd never guessed they would allow contact from Causey Pike to the shores of Buttermere as it isn't exaactly line of sight but UHF bounces nicely and knife-edge diffraction over sharp ridges is possible. It was possible to keep in touch on a variedy of split family days out, though planning contact times to avoid blackout zones is important

as for aid, I think the cases on the motorolas might be good enough to hammer into a crack and pull/step on though I wouldn't recommend this

Post edited at 12:40
 Basemetal 26 Mar 2021
In reply to wercat:

> PMR446 was introduced in the late 90s - could yours be CBs?

My mistake - I bought them in Toronto  in 1998. That shocked me a bit... I thought I'd bought them on a much earlier trip than I actually did.

 Misha 29 Mar 2021
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I used them a bit about 10 years ago. Handy for sea cliffs but extra weight / bulk (more modern ones are smaller than what I had). I think occasionally they could be handy, eg when abseiling into a sea cliffs when you aren’t sure what’s down there. The rest of the time though I think they’re unnecessary. If you can’t see or hear your partner, just keep them on till the rope runs out or until it’s clear that they’re taking in. Then start climbing once the rope is tight and stop climbing if slack develops... Being able to judge what’s happening is a key skill and I’d focus on that rather than fancy kit.

1
 Misha 29 Mar 2021
In reply to PaulW:

> Used to carry them all the time on sea cliffs, especially multi pitch stuff. With the extra noise from the water it just took the uncertainty out of the "surely they must be at the belay now" question

Just keep them on till the rope runs out if not sure. 

 Misha 29 Mar 2021
In reply to Dave Cundy:

> I used one 15 years ago when my mate abseiled down Gaping Ghyll.  I followed him after he'd called to say he was established on the half-way ledge.  Invaluable in that situation.

> Otherwise, i'd just have waited 30 minutes and hoped for the best.  Which ends badly on the odd occasion....

First person down keep the weigh on the ropes until they’ve built a belay or made themselves safe. Second person starts abseiling as soon as the ropes are slack. 

 Misha 29 Mar 2021
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Re the Alps - no one I know uses them. It would just be extra weight and faff. Just have to learn how to operate without communicating.

 George Ormerod 29 Mar 2021
In reply to Misha:

They've saved my marriage after an incident when 'take' was mistaken for 'slack'!  And for those who say use rope pulls, what's the numbers of pulls for 'I've had my tooth knocked out by a lump of ice' (same wife, no walkie talkies on that occasion, but still married).

 wercat 29 Mar 2021
In reply to Misha:

I've used them sparingly out solo in the Alps to keep in touch with the family in the valley/hut.  Also on Skye to give position reports to family from the Cuillin.  Never used them rock climbing

I've heard no end of strange bleeps from people using unreliable cheapos in winter in the UK.

Post edited at 09:16
 nastyned 29 Mar 2021
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Only if you stand on them. 

 Mick Ward 29 Mar 2021
In reply to Misha:

> Being able to judge what’s happening is a key skill and I’d focus on that rather than fancy kit.

Totally agree. The more you practise that skill, the better it will get.

Mick

1
 Cobra_Head 29 Mar 2021
In reply to ianstevens:

> Designed for adventure (tm)


They're not endorsed by a Bear are they?

1
 Will Hunt 29 Mar 2021
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Does nobody do three sharp tugs on the rope any more?

1
 Misha 29 Mar 2021
In reply to George Ormerod:

They can be helpful in such situations but you should avoid such situations in the first place. If you think your second might struggle, set up a belay with line of sight of the difficult section or just do another route. Ice climbing injuries are harder to avoid of course but generally won't be serious for the second (unless you're climbing below another team - which is something to avoid generally). A knocked out tooth is not nice of course but the second should still be able to climb up to the belay with that kind of injury. Whereas if they're knocked unconscious, a radio won't help anyway.

 wercat 29 Mar 2021
In reply to Misha:

not on rock climbs but there have been cases of PMR446/FRS radios being used to successfully make a distress call in mountain areas.

On one occasion I called back home on a PMR446 from one of the hills in the Haweswater area only to get a voice from N wales ask me who I was.   Similarly Snowdon to Valley base got a random stranger on Anglesey

In the days when I used to carry 144MHz gear in my pocket Northern Ireland/Wales/Isle of Man were routine.

As I say I've never used them on rock climbs other than stuff like Pinnacle Ridge on Skye which is scrambling anyway

Post edited at 22:55
 drconline 30 Mar 2021
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Hi again Paul,

 I’m coming back to the original premise of your question as I think that got a wee bit lost.

 If I understand you are asking is there a consensus about where walkie talkies lie in the safety Vs performance spectrum?

 So do they only enhance safety (like a harness) or do they also enhance performance (like sticky rubber shoes) and therefore could be considered as aid?

 This is a very common question in climbing and the answers aren’t always logical of course since they impact on people’s individual perception of adventure and risk.

 Some folk (like myself) think they only enhance safety and can’t think of a strong  reason not to use them when they would make it safer.

 Others (perhaps like you) may worry that it takes away some of adventure and detracts from the achievement.

 Others apparently can’t think why you would bother when tugging on a rope has been good enough up till now. (Still using twisted ropes too?)

Each to their own I guess but I do like the old climbing adage “it’s only cheating if you lie about it afterwards “

 PaulTclimbing 30 Mar 2021

A walkie talkie bashed in a crack, hung with a sling and stood upon facilitated by an etrier to fully support a climbers weight or assist a rest for the climber to overcome some impossibly difficult move or otherwise to gain upward continuation of a climb artificially would thus be ‘Aid’ whereas if it was the same but wrapped in bandages and  at the earliest occurrence in the climb and used as above for upward movement it could feasibly be regarded as ‘First Aid’ not withstanding the appeal of its communicative powers. 

 Toby_W 30 Mar 2021
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Got mine from Lidl and they are excellent. About £30 I think.  We would not do without them when we ice climb.  We use 60m ropes and as well as just making things safer and the number of times we’ve run out full pitches and the radios have informed the choice of stretch the ropes out to reach a belay or just screw into the ice has been significant.

well worth having.

Cheers

Toby


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