UKH

Hi,

I've done lots of single pitch sport and trad, and a few multi-pitches on sport and trad, but I'm very hesitant when it comes to multi pitch, so I'd like to do a course to get better at it mostly from the safety/technique point of view. I was just wondering if anyone knows of any formalised courses that are available to learn these skills and have them recognised through a qualification?

Done a bit of research and I couldn't find anything other than climbing instrutor training. There are lots of outfits offering multi-pitch courses but they are not formalised in the sense that they teach by doing/showing (could be subjective what they teach) and I'm not really sure whether you learn standardised/the best safety techniques doing it this way rather than doing a formal course where the 'industry standard' is taught.

Any input on this greatly appreciated. Main thing i'm after is learning to multipitch safely, and maybe I can take away some good habits for my single pitch stuff too!

Thanks!

Assuming you have 11-20 years experience I think you're probably over thinking how complex it might be - for traditional mountaineering type routes belays are often reasonably commodious, and the skills needed you already have!

Pick easy routes, well below your top lead grade so you're not stressed by the climbing and apply some brain power to making belays safe when the rope pulls up as well as down and crack on.

Why do you need a qualification? Typically, the people providing the instruction will have a qualification (RCI etc).

There's not really 'a' right way to climb, you learn a variety of different techniques and deploy the most appropriate depending on many things, personal and circumstantial!

You already know almost everything you need to know it just needs some practice as it's only slightly more complicated.  As a single pitch "expert" you may not be aware of the potential for high fall factors when moving off a ledge so you could read up on that but IMO you do not need a potentially expensive course.

Al

There isn’t a formal syllabus for these types of courses, although any decent instructor will cover the same bases, just with their own slant on how they teach etc.

The appropriate qualification to teach Multi Pitch stuff in the U.K. would be “Mountaineering and Climbing Instructor”, or “British Mountain Guide”.

Shameless plug, I’m an MCI based in N Wales: http://www.jbmountainskills.co.uk

With your experience though, to be honest I’d do a bit of extra reading or YouTube watching, and just go and give some steady routes a go!

I have a YT channel too! http://www.youtube.com/c/JBMountainSkills

I agree that you don't need a course, much less a formal qualification with a strict syllabus or anything like that.

That said, if someone's got the money to spare then a day or two out with an experienced guide is going to be a good way to learn a lot and probably have a good time. I've done a few days with instructors for winter stuff, I know people who've done similar things for rock or alpine, and I don't think anyone's come back thinking it was a waste of their time.

Another shameless plug

Im also an MCI based in North Wales, I've got a load of multipitch skills courses running throughout the year. More info here;

https://www.moelwynmountaineering.com/product-page/multipitch-skills

I did ML and SPA and had a good time on both but I can safely say that, in my case, it was not value for money as at the time I was a very experienced rock, ice and alpine climber operating at a respectable level. What I did learn was more to do with walking and climbing with groups than anything technical at a personal level. I could have been taught this in a few hours rather than several weeks and some considerable expense. 

This doesn't help the OP but it has reminded me that unlike most single pitch many multi pitch routes may require some navigation and mountaineering skills.

Al

Sure, to be specific I'm talking about going out with a guide to practice stuff where you haven't got much experience and lack confidence, not to tick the box to get an instructor ticket for something where you're already more than comfortable with the technical side.

Hi,

It's not so much climbing technique I'm worried about. It's moreso the rope skills, anchors, redundancy etc. I've learnt from other people in a mountaineering club, but some of those guys have blase attitudes to safety so i'm keen to learn from an expert who is more safety minded if that makes sense? Things i'm thinking about are: what if this anchor fails - will I fall or is there redundancy etc. That kind of thing.

I've seen a lot of bad habits outdoors like only anchoring to one anchor and undoing the live rope etc. I am guilty of this in the past, but nowadays I try to secure myself to two separate anchors when and if I need to undo the live rope, and more when and if I do trad!

cheers, i'll check out your channel and webpage. I never used to worry so much about my rope skills, but I guess with age i'm becoming more risk adverse and want to do things 'properly' whatever that actually means!

How about having a day learning some basic rescue/emergency/ skills as well? If something goes wrong at Stanage then you can lower to the ground, or hope that someone else can drop a toprope. If you're on a multi-pitch on a sea cliff then a problem could easily become a real emergency.

There is no issue with a single point of contact if it's bombproof.  A stout tree or a large boulder for example.  You already seem to be aware of the potential pitfalls. Blase is bad but being confident enough to know that you are safe is not and it would be easy to mistake the latter for the former.  I can do this sort of thing blindfolded and in a raging storm and after over 50 years it has become 2nd nature so I am confident but in no way blase. Keep doing it, there is no real substitute for experience.

Al

All the member of the Association Of Mountaineering Instructors are qualified to teach this and undergo compulsory CPD to ensure we are teaching good practice. What you were taught would be tailored to your current skills and yours ambitions; there isn't a set syllabus, they would tailor it to you. Jez Brown (posting above) is a member and his YouTube videos are highly regarded. https://www.mountain-training.org/membership/ami/find-an-instructor

Any member of the British Mountain Guides would offer the same. https://www.bmg.org.uk/activity/british-rock-climbing/

Disclaimer: I'm an AMI member based in the Wye Valley, offering courses by arrangement, get in touch if I can help.

I made an inquiry for a multi pitch course in spain. Quote I got was £1000 for 5 days climbing grade 5's ratio 2:1. Does that sound decent? Seems a bit steep to me but i'm not in the industry so no idea what is reasonable or not.

Was also thinking of plas y brenin. Any thoughts on them?

Not really sure whether I should be going for a dedicated multipitch course, or just doing a day or two skills course with a guide to brush up and then just get the hours in.

There is a fantastic atmosphere at PB that you may not experience with sole traders but it is on the expensive end of the spectrum.  As far as their competence is concerned you will not find better.  I have no idea of current rates and what is reasonable. Something to consider as I mentioned above is to think about navigation and some more basic mountaineering skills which may be required to reach the climbs.

If you go independent you stand a better chance of getting something tailored to your needs.  The courses I did at Plasy were all residential which of course adds to the cost.

Al

I did a course when I first started trad climbing and honestly, I don't think it was good value for me. I read a book and spent an afternoon throwing slings over branches and building lots of different anchor setup in my back garden (and cleaning sport anchors), which was far more useful. 

In my view, ropework isn't rocket science. The physics is all pretty straightforward. You should be able to look at an anchor and visualise what happens to the forces if any of the pieces pop. If you need someone to explain to you what will happen, you probably shouldn't be building anchors for real!

I was at Stanage last year and some lad yelled at me to check out the belay he's made, as he didn't think it looked right. He'd stuck 3 cams in about 4-5 feet apart and clipped the rope through all of em then clove hitched it once back to his harness. To his credit he knew it didn't look right, but eek. Would have been exciting if his second took a fall! The top of a crag probably isn't the best place to be scratching your head wondering why your belay doesn't look right....

If Jez's videos are anything to go by, he can probably teach you all you need to know in half a day, and more useful things besides. 

If you are competent at building belays above a single pitch route, you have little more to learn. Probably not worth £1000 to to Spain.

That's what I would charge for a private course, for my open/public courses it's £500pp for five days. Again at 1:2 ratio. (Link to courses is above).

I'd say the latter, for sure. I mean, the people who say you don't need a formal course at all are pretty much right, but if you do want to reassure yourself that you're doing the essential safety stuff right, maybe go over some basic self-rescue bits and maybe pick up a few tips and tricks to make things more efficient then five days seems like a crazy amount of time to spend over it. I mean, you might have a nice time climbing in the sun for a week but it's still a long time!

Also, obvious point, but think about the sort of climbing you want to do. If most of your multipitching is UK mountains and sea cliffs then what you learn on Spanish sport (if that's what the course you're looking at covers?) or anything else with bolted belays will have limited applicability.

Offer to second a more experienced leader in return for them taking you up some multi pitch, so that you can see what's what, then as your confidence grows ask them to let you start leading some of the pitches. If you don't know anyone who might help you consider joining a club.

As others have said start on low grade climbs well within your ability.

I'm pretty new to the mountains and Jez's videos have been brilliant for me. Good presenting style. Excellent dog.

Yes that's a bit on the pricey side. It's probably more than you need too. As has been mentioned already, a couple of days with a guide, all tailored to your needs would be a good course of action. The plus side to climbing in Spain (assuming it's the south), is the weather is far more settled than the UK so you're very likely going to be able to climb every day and not just go through the motions whilst waterfalls cascade from the crag! No shortage of trad either.

You may find though, that after watching Jez's videos, you'll have learnt enough to just get on with it.

And get a copy of 'Down': https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/54599087-down

Eek did the guy not clove hitch at the protection end at all or was the rope able to move freely between the three anchoring cams? This is exactly the kind of bad habit I want to avoid picking up when doing multipitch! Hopefully no instructor taught him that! 

Done exactly this 10+ years ago. Ie seconding then leading some pitches. Want to get good enough and confident enough to be the sole leader now.😊

Why do you need a formal course? The accessible formal courses would be SPA etc and you'll learn all sorts of useful stuff about releasable abseil and extracting a "frozen" or tangled up climber from half way up/down a pitch, but skills like rope management at belays and route finding multi pitch or mountain won't be covered (or at least my experience 25+ years ago)

If you hadn't already posted you had 10 years experience I'd have recommended a 1:1 day out with a guide (Jez/Alex would be great choices). But those of us who originally progressed: walking --> scrambling --> climbing --> mountaineering  just absorbed the skills. Maybe you should do some long easy mountain routes that require these skills but at a million grades below your sport level. How about Hawkwind on Carnedd y Filiast or Clogwyn y Person arete scramble. You should have some cracking days out there. You can learn the route finding and managing belays separately to difficult technical climbing. Then when ready you can combine the two skills. Enjoy!

Top tier dog. 

If you want a decent course, book a day or two with an instructor with an MCI qualification. They are very qualified to teach you everything you could want to know. They will teach you "gold standard" techniques. Make sure you let them know what you want and your prior experience.

I wouldn't recommend a course in Spain, as the climbing there will be different - e.g. more fixed gear.

You sound as though you have received the training you need and have experienced multi pitch 10 years ago. You need to get out there, ideally with a mate of similar experience, and set about putting all you have learnt into practice. What you need now is to build up lots and lots of experience on different types of rock and in different areas.- more courses won't necessarily do that for you. Just get out there and do it. This is what multi pitch Trad is all about.

And, as I and others have said start on easy climbs, gradually increasing the grades as you become more experienced and confident. Good luck!

Nope, the rope was just clipped through the well spaced out gear, then one clove hitch back on his harness. A fall would have put an increased sideways load on each piece, probably popped one, which would have put several feet of slack in the system and likely sent the him over the edge, then shock-loaded the remaining pieces (with two people on the rope now) from a different angle from the first pull.

I am not a very experienced trad climber but I was able to see straight away what was wrong, why, and how to fix it. Everyone learns different though! Building anchors and running through things myself to practice works for me.

Those are all the right things to be worrying about whether you are halfway up Cloggy or at the top of Stanage.  Obviously, if things go a bit wrong on a multipitch there's going to be some abseiling, but if you wouldn't be prepared to abseil from the belays you are putting in now, maybe they aren't good enough.  

The other thing about multipitch is that it requires your partner to be competent with the basics too.  They'll be alone taking out belays and, if you need to retreat, either putting them in or clipping in to an abseil unsupervised, 

Over the years I’ve done Trad course at PYB and hired a private instructor (both more for fun than for learning per se). I’d already climbed a lot of Trad on grit but Multipitch does require some different skills (don’t underestimate route reading being a key one for Trad!) and it was definitely worth it. 

There are pros and cons of both:

PYB - you get food and lodging, other people to climb and socialise with which makes for a nice learning atmosphere. The staff were all amazing. They have some good facilities- such as an indoor ‘Trad wall’ that you can place gear in.

However, It is ~£1000 per person for a week (whereas a private instructor might be £1000 in total) and they’re (understandably) quite rigidly 9-5.

Private instructor- 

You’ll need to find a friend to do it woth you (Most will not want to do a 1:1 ratio) but if you can it works out less pp. Depending on the instructor they might be a bit more flexible with their time. However there is a lot of choice and If you didn’t hit it off with them it could be quite an intense week!

And second what others have said about Jez’s youtube videos being excellent - highly recommend

I'd suggest getting in contact with Stu at TheClimbingCompany - he could tailor some training to suit your needs, he is a great coach and you get to climb in Pembroke!

Pembroke is fantastic, one of my favourite trad climbing venues, but I would have thought that if the OP wants to learn more about multi-pitch climbing going to an area with lots of multi-pitch climbs would be a better idea

Al

As a side, I would really recommend picking up a copy of Climbing Anchors by John Long. There are so many guides on youtube/instagram trying to keep themselves relevant on the socials with complicated anchor setups and debating girth-hitch master-points, it can appear far more daunting than it need be. 

Multi-pitching is often simple - bish, bash bosh - and if you know how to build an anchor, use your common sense, and are conscious of a few extra things (e.g. don't secure yourself to it on a big floppy sling, consider the possibility of an upward pull, protecting moves off the belay, etc.) then I don't think there's a necessity for specific training on it (and probably why there isn't anything specifically addressing it). 

I expect it was more likely the outcome of following some of the advice above - looking at books and YT videos and shunning qualified advice. 

I mean really, can you imagine someone going onto a motoring forum asking about recommendations for a learn to drive course and people popping up all over telling them not to bother with driving instructors and to learn just by getting in a car by yourself and a "driving for idiots" book?  Or even worse, just get their mate "Dave" to teach them?

As comparisons go that is at the ridiculous end of the spectrum.  That was the least rude comment I could come up with

Al

He's been climbing for a decade already, and he's still alive, so it's fair to assume he's got the basics.

Depending where you want to do a course I definitely would recommend Jezz at JB mountain skills in N Wales, and Stu at the climbing company in Pembrokeshire. Both excellent instructors and fantastic climbing at the same time.

Thanks for the mention, and to others who have also mentioned me!

The dog thanks you for his mentions too!

Have you read Libby Peters book “Rock Climbing”? Given your considerable experience this is probably all you need. 

Just do the SPA several times? 

Possibly useful website: multipitchclimbing.com