Acid cleaning of holds

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Oldham  church  dates from 1830 and is on Rock St

The rock that built it came from Running Hill.

SO Why oh why after 190 years have''YOU'' [Whatever  you  are] found it legitimate to Acid clean the holds  in the spanner Quarry. ?

Yes its a Acid

yes its ran down

yes it looks Sh1t

yes I will photo it some time

yes I am Very displeased 

   

Edit and Sadden by your work.

Post edited at 10:57
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 Tom Valentine 19 Jul 2021
In reply to Name Changed 34:

Interesting about the source of the stone. How do you find out stuff like that?

1
In reply to Tom Valentine:

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm It was told to me by Bob Tate, it maybe referenced in one of his writings.  However am I right that it was oldham church?  St Chads Uppermill is very close by, you have planted the seed of uncertainty.  Plus the County bounders altered, the pits were in Yorkshire.

Saddleworth Days - Walks in and Around the Saddleworth Hills. Paperback – 1 Jan. 1992

by Bob Tait (Author)

Post edited at 17:10
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 Sean Kelly 19 Jul 2021
In reply to Name Changed 34:

Bob Tate, a name that brings back memories.

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 Tom Valentine 20 Jul 2021
In reply to Name Changed 34:

I wouldn't have thought the county boundaries made much difference: My local town hall deep in the heart of South Yorkshire is made of Portland stone and a very fine structure it is too.

1
In reply to Name Changed 34:

This was done at least a year ago. I imagine the answer to your (perhaps) rhetorical question is that it was seen as being an effective way of removing all the lichen etc from Liquor, Loose Women and Double Cross as well as Passport to the Pits - I assume those are the routes you mean.

How do you know for certain that it was acid rather than a strong weedkiller?

Can you explain the connection between building of the church and cleaning the holds? I don't understand why 190 years has anything to do with whether someone has used some substance on the holds or not. The routes themselves were from the leg-ends Dougie Hall and John Smith who, despite how they look now, are not 190 years old and only did the routes in the 80s.

Passport to the Pits is brilliant BTW. I haven't been on LLW&DC.

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In reply to Sean Kelly:

Last I heard he had moved abroad somewhere warm and sunny and was running walking  tours  something he didn’t Anyway

Bob is a nice  bloke always happy to share what he could and encourage others ( like yourself )

 Was it Bob who was the mountain rescue team leader at the time of one of my favourite sarges?

 One evening in winter it was decided the team would do a search for  the casualty and a stretcher of carry down

 Casualty was dispatched to the top of  Channel Clough  knowing he didn’t have to walk down he took a half bottle of brandy   Probably fella sleep Awaiting his friends and team members to  sledge  him down.. with howling wind spindrift and  blizzards the search party decided that the casualty had gone home as they were not able to locate  having had refreshments And being discharged from the pub at 10:30 as you were in those days all was well  until the casualties wife on realising the lateness of the hour and that he’s not return began to worry  telephoning team members as to her husbands whereabouts  ... as the team were over refreshed or hung over it fell to Glossop  to find the casualty snoring And none to happy that he has to walk back down  

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In reply to Frank the Husky:

> This was done at least a year ago. I imagine the answer to your (perhaps) rhetorical question is that it was seen as being an effective way of removing all the lichen etc from Liquor, Loose Women and Double Cross as well as Passport to the Pits - I assume those are the routes you mean.

> How do you know for certain that it was acid rather than a strong weedkiller?

 Well of course I can’t be Certain 

If it was weedkiller used in this manner  would it be acceptable ?

> Can you explain the connection between building of the church and cleaning the holds? I don't understand why 190 years has anything to do with whether someone has used some substance on the holds or not. The routes themselves were from the leg-ends Dougie Hall and John Smith who, despite how they look now, are not 190 years old and only did the routes in the 80s

yes 

Clearly a natural Hue has built up over the time 

> Passport to the Pits is brilliant BTW. I haven't been on LLW&DC.

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In reply to Name Changed 34:

As said I have I uploaded  photos to show your handy work, and lack of ------ well just about everything, associated with respect.  

4
In reply to Name Changed 34:

I think weedkiller would be perfectly acceptable, and I've used it myself at Shooters' Nab and a few other places roundabouts - it's less damaging than a heavy handed wire brushing session. Weedkiller and a stiff kitchen brush are all that is needed for a good clean like this, and clearly the effects are long lasting.

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In reply to Frank the Husky:

> I think weedkiller would be perfectly acceptable, and I've used it myself at Shooters' Nab and a few other places roundabouts - it's less damaging than a heavy handed wire brushing session. Weedkiller and a stiff kitchen brush are all that is needed for a good clean like this, and clearly the effects are long lasting.


well if that is the view you hold so be it, and if the BMC approve more the pity.

I make the assumption you saw the photos I posted before your reply? and further assume you think the damage is, weedkiller, and acceptable.

In my view its not, and I am saddened to know that members of the climbing community do such a unsightly thing. 

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In reply to Name Changed 34:

I have sent the following

Cath Flitcroft BMC  Access & Conservation Officer (Policy)

Dear Cath,

Through the UKC forum I see that some climbers think it reasonable to clean rock with Acid and to use weedkillers.

Has the BMC a policy on this? 

It is unsightly and damaging,  Photo's attached , It is also of environmental  concern,  do land owners give consent to this work? I think not.

As members of the public we have no authority to poison the land, or deface the landscape.

I look forward to receiving you response in the fullness of time, for the interim please be  kind enough to acknowledge this Email 

link to UKC page   https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/rock_talk/acid_cleaning_of_holds-737118

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In reply to Name Changed 34:

Hello - I can guess the BMC response will be to discourage the use of chemicals. I saw the routes in real life about a year ago and registered the effects then. It appears that the rock is still super clean a year later so that's good news as far as I'm concerned. I wasn't responsible and I don't know who was. I posted about it at the time in the Chew Valley Cragsmen Facebook group but got zero feedback.

You ask if I think the damage is acceptable, but I see no damage. I see small areas of a rock face that no longer have algae on them.

I'm glad you mention environmental damage, poisoning the land, defacing the landscape and landowners - have you seen what's going on in the Dark Peak? It's enough to make you weep - discarded, leaking oil drums in old quarries, raptor persecution, piles of rusting farm equipment, discarded livestock corpses, poisoned water courses, 4x4 tracks built across regenerating moorland, unlawful "keep out" signs on Open Access land, denuded landscapes, clough woodland chopped down & hundreds of square miles of drained, arid moorland. Write letters by all means, but perhaps a couple of square feet of clean rock in a quarry isn't the biggest threat to the moorlands.

TTFN

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 Offwidth 28 Jul 2021
In reply to Frank the Husky:

You forgot the effing fences and illegal boulder placement blocking legitimate parking spots.

 steveriley 28 Jul 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

I'm late to this but yes - seems to be a real effort to reduce parking around the Chew, West Nab etc, blocking perfectly reasonable parking places. These crags are going to fall (further) off the radar if we're not careful. Is it a co-ordinated effort?

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Yes I expect the BMC response will be to discourage, and that is a good thing.


You say you saw the routes in person about a year ago, I have not confirmed which routes are affected and the routes that you speculated on are only part of the affected routes, the routes that are affected our ; Liquor, Loose Women and Double Cross , Breakin for a bogey, and a bit of bolder stuff on the South wall  

Passport to the pit is looking ok and not showing damage. so are we on the same sheet? have you seen the photos I have put on my profile? I have no other way to show them. I will Email if you like.




The point is being missed here and that is that although 180 years ago the landscape was ravages with great holes left in it, and before that trees were cleared for agriculture. None of this makes  make it justifiable or correct, or give us a entitlement to do the same. This current generation continues to deface and damage what landscape and environment we have.

You say  the defacement that you saw causes no damage, but indeed it does cause damage, be visual or otherwise.  In the same way that the rusting tractor and entanglements of  barbed wire tipped in a quarry causes visual damage, as the drums that leek do  environmental damage.

Adding to this damage is tangible,  as can be seen from today’s custodians of the land. My personal hatred is plastic bale wraps and string

.


We could go back and forth on this for evermore. However it is to miss the point, I suspect you are too young to remember the chalk debate in the 70s it has now become common use, even on easy routes it is still considered unsightly by some.

Although I could not sight any case where the landowner has denied access because of chalk, it does not mean it is not the case. If chemical cleaning became common practice landowners let’s take the National Trust for example would not allow climbing they would simply seek to prohibit. This is my concern that it is unsightly, will grow in practice, and will lead to further hostility to a climbing community, and we should step back from its escalation now.

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In reply to steveriley:

> I'm late to this but yes - seems to be a real effort to reduce parking around the Chew, West Nab etc, blocking perfectly reasonable parking places. These crags are going to fall (further) off the radar if we're not careful. Is it a co-ordinated effort?


Yes all this so lets not add by defacing the rock

 Offwidth 28 Jul 2021
In reply to steveriley:

It's mainly one farmer taking individual illegal action, followed by the system failing to respond appropriately.

 Sam Beaton 28 Jul 2021
In reply to steveriley:

I have contacted Kirklees Council's Highways team about the roadside boulders at West Nab and they can't do anything about them. But I can at least still fit my car between the boulders to park.

 C Witter 28 Jul 2021
In reply to Name Changed 34:

I agree with Frank the Husky that there are bigger fish to fry, but also with you that this is not best practice. Apart from anything, weed killer on a more-or-less vertical wall is going to contaminate the area around it, which is problematic given that cliffs in general (even if perhaps not these cliffs specifically) are home to some very rare and vulnerable plants. I expect, actually, that most of the time it would be washed straight off into the soil below in the first rain and fail to "clean" the rock, though it has obviously worked here.

I also think any onsight ascents claimed for these routes in this state is pretty dubious...!

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 CantClimbTom 29 Jul 2021
In reply to Name Changed 34:

Sorry to be naive but what's meant by acid cleaning? do you mean something like cillit bang and a stout nylon scrubbing brush (sounds damaging/nasty for any rock other than granite, and even then...)

 Boy Global Crag Moderator 29 Jul 2021
In reply to Name Changed 34:

Plain water and a brush is just as effective at removing algae off grit. It has the advantage that it doesn't leave streaks, but I guess the algae might grow back quicker. 

In reply to CantClimbTom:

> Sorry to be naive but what's meant by acid cleaning? do you mean something like cillit bang and a stout nylon scrubbing brush (sounds damaging/nasty for any rock other than granite, and even then...)

 I’m not going  say what acid I believe will have been used I don’t want to encourage 

 I can’t post the photographs have a look on my profile they readily available  And shocking

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 jimtitt 29 Jul 2021
In reply to CantClimbTom:

> Sorry to be naive but what's meant by acid cleaning? do you mean something like cillit bang and a stout nylon scrubbing brush (sounds damaging/nasty for any rock other than granite, and even then...)

Sodium hypochlorite or citric acid are the usual patio/stone algae killers. Environmentally meaningless.

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 Offwidth 29 Jul 2021
In reply to Name Changed 34:

How on earth could you sensibly believe an acid has been used as opposed to say a weed killer?  As Jim has pointed out the usual acids used to remove algae from stone are unlikely to create a serious environmental problem.

In reply to OffwidthHow on earth could you sensibly believe an acid has been used as opposed to say a weed killer

The  Evidence of my eyes  what do you think he’s done the damage ? 

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 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 29 Jul 2021
In reply to Name Changed 34:

It is a mess for sure. I am surprised no one else has mentioned the fact that the tiny holds and edges look look to have been scratched/improved,

Chris

 CantClimbTom 30 Jul 2021
In reply to Name Changed 34:

Understood, looking at the pics in your profile I see dribble marks underneath the clean patches so it must be aggressive cleaner. That looks nasty

 Alkis 30 Jul 2021
In reply to CantClimbTom:

Any moss killer will have the same visual effect, I've had that happen when cleaning concrete fence panels. It's hard to know.

 Jon Read 30 Jul 2021
In reply to Alkis:

It looks like bleach has been badly applied -- someone did something similar to Grit Expectations (E4 6a) the other year and it looked a mess. Chalk has the same effect, but appears as smooth streaks so we climbers tend not to notice it as much.

I suggest to the culprit that if you don't know how to apply an appropriate treatment carefully enough that someone wouldn't know you'd cleaned it, you shouldn't be doing it!

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 Timmd 10 Aug 2021
In reply to Boy:

> Plain water and a brush is just as effective at removing algae off grit. It has the advantage that it doesn't leave streaks, but I guess the algae might grow back quicker. 

It's a much greener solution.

 tehmarks 11 Aug 2021
In reply to Timmd:

That's surprising; the water that comes out of my taps is clear.

In reply to Name Changed 34:

As said I would share the BMC reply.

Fortunately instances of this type occur fairly infrequently and the BMC certainly does not condone the use of weed killer or acids to clean rock faces.

The reply go's on;

On sites owned by the BMC we have ourselves occasionally used chemical substances to control the likes of rhododendron, but not to my knowledge on the rock itself.

So pretty please  stop trashing the rock.

If you ant good enough for the route go somewhere else, till you are. Don't bring the route down to your grade, take your grade up to the route.

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 Andy Stewart2 07 Sep 2021
In reply to Name Changed 34:

Up until a few decades ago acid rain poured down on the Peak District due to nitrogen  and sulphur gases from the combustion of coal. This was an unfortunate side effect of the Industrial Revolution. Soot blackened rock is still in evidence from the direct deposition of the byproducts of combustion of fossil fuels.  

Older generations of climbers have observed that many gritstone outcrops didn't used to be green like they are now, especially those with a north facing aspect. Air pollution and acid rain stopped algae and lichen from growing on rock. Did the acid rain do untold damage to the gritstone rock? Probably not, although some bands of rock appear more susceptible to weathering than others. 

More significantly, the acid rain killed off the sphagnum mosses which created the blanket peat bogs, exposing peat to water and wind erosion, polluting watercourses and washing heavy metals, which also rained down from the sky with the acid rain, into reservoirs. Bare peat dries more readily and is vulnerable to fires during the increasing droughts and higher temperatures we are experiencing.

It's  now code red for humanity, with the climate crisis beginning to spiral out of control across the globe. Peat represents a huge store of carbon that needs to be safeguarded. It's possible to donate to Moors for the Future through the BMC website if you feel moved to do something positive, rather than carping on about something that has offended you. I could point you at lots of very green rock if that's your thing?

There are some big issues that affect us all, and there are some little issues which aren't worth wasting energy on.   Let's not get hooked on the superficial and insignificant at the expense of more pressing matters. 

7
 tehmarks 07 Sep 2021
In reply to Andy Stewart2:

Couldn't agree more.

On an unrelated note, does anyone have a hammer and some old knifeblades that I can borrow? Have a few projects at Millstone that I want to look at now that it's been green-lighted...

In reply to Andy Stewart2:

In short I don't take your point as valid in this context, in another context yes maybe but not here sorry.  

Up until a few decades ago acid rain poured down on the Peak District due to nitrogen  and sulphur gases from the combustion of coal. This was an unfortunate side effect of the Industrial Revolution. Soot blackened rock is still in evidence from the direct deposition of the byproducts of combustion of fossil fuels.  

Older generations of climbers have observed that many gritstone outcrops didn't used to be green like they are now, especially those with a north facing aspect. Air pollution and acid rain stopped algae and lichen from growing on rock. Did the acid rain do untold damage to the gritstone rock? Probably not, although some bands of rock appear more susceptible to weathering than others. 

Are you saying acid is bad?

More significantly, the acid rain killed off the sphagnum mosses which created the blanket peat bogs, exposing peat to water and wind erosion, polluting watercourses and washing heavy metals, which also rained down from the sky with the acid rain, into reservoirs. Bare peat dries more readily and is vulnerable to fires during the increasing droughts and higher temperatures we are experiencing.

you are saying acid is bad.

It's  now code red for humanity, with the climate crisis beginning to spiral out of control across the globe. Peat represents a huge store of carbon that needs to be safeguarded. It's possible to donate to Moors for the Future through the BMC website if you feel moved to do something positive, rather than carping on about something that has offended you. I could point you at lots of very green rock if that's your thing?

Moors for the Future AKA we help United Utilities[or UU utterly useless] pay out more dividends, by helping with runoff.

Have you seen the rosebay willoherb the ragwort the robedendren  and others that the MFF have introduced?  how will this be controlled ? its  something positive -bad!

There are some big issues that affect us all, and there are some little issues which aren't worth wasting energy on.   Let's not get hooked on the superficial and insignificant at the expense of more pressing matters. 

Big issues, look after the pennies and the pounds look after em' selves, the 100 miles march starts with a single ----

Said my bit, my view is know.  Just think how this will end;,  em who so pleases will carry on overtly defacing and when it is seen as improper it will be to late, Period.     

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