Accident Blackspots for Climbers

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 Sean Kelly 05 Mar 2021

Accident Blackspots for Climbers

I'm preparing an article on this topic and would appreciate any help for crags /areas I have omitted. Not a lot for the Lakes or Scotland at present.

As we all know any cliff is dangerous with potential rock-fall, abseiling risks and poorly protected climbs, but some crags seem to attract more than their share of epics and accidents. Please feel free to add to the list below. Thanks!

Sean

Wales

Idwal Slabs, Ogwen

Many novices first experience of mountaineering is on these deceptively easy looking slabs, but danger awaits. Aside from learning new skills, the way off is not obvious, is steep, exposed and often wet.

Lliwedd

Another cliff that attracts the lower-grade climber, but with sparse belays and very slippy in the wet it is a regular call-out venue for MR teams

Clogwyn Du’r Arddu

A very serious cliff in many ways. Some climbs are run-out, rock-fall is a danger at busy times, particularly on the West Buttress, and the descent requires care or a long detour. North facing so it can be damp, cold and misty

Gogarth

An intimidating cliff, especially on a first visit. Locating the abseil starts can be difficult, and once at the bottom you have to be able to get back up somehow. Friable rock in places. Sea swell is another non-apparent peril

Craig y Bera

Not a popular cliff but notoriously loose

England

Chudleigh & Avon Gorge

All the popular climbs are extremely polished, unnerving for the first-time visitor

South West sea-cliffs

Too many to list but consider wild seas, loose rock, and often not easy to effect escape. Think Berry Head, Gurnard’s Head, Chair Ladder, Wrecker’s Slab, Culm, Pentire Head etc.

Peak Gritstone

There are many unprotected slabs & bald arêtes. Think Great Slab, Brown’s Eliminate, Chalkstorm, Ulysses or Bust etc.

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 John Kelly 05 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

The swirrel edge exit from helvellyn plateau in winter

 dunnyg 05 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

Just a thought, but are these backed up with data? If so then the data should be able to tell you about Scotland. Perceived black spots and actual black spots may be different.

 Jim Lancs 05 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

I guess it depends on how strictly you're going to define 'climbers'.

Both Broad Stand and Sharp Edge are 'graded' and must have a disproportionately high level of accidents.

The LDMSAMRA published annual reports from which you could glean which accidents needed outside assistance:  https://ldsamra.org.uk/incidents.php

OP Sean Kelly 05 Mar 2021
In reply to John Kelly:

I'm not yet interested in Walkers hazards or Winter, but Rock-climber's specific risk areas. There is quite a bit of documentation about these other risks

Post edited at 21:06
 sbc23 05 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

Raven Crag, Langdale (the main one behind the ODG)

A least two fatal falls by experienced climbers from the descent route above Revelation that I know about (2018 & 2008).  Also multiple injuries of people descending the Middlefell buttress gully, boulder rockfall etc.

You can filter a search on LAMRT website incident reports. There are a lot of 'fell/slipped whilst descending' accidents going back into the 70's at Raven crag. Edit : (There are several Raven crags in the lakes, check the tags are correct with the description)

Post edited at 21:11
1
 Cake 05 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

> Think Great Slab, Brown’s Eliminate, Chalkstorm, Ulysses or Bust etc.

Are these the routes that people have accidents on, or is it not more beginners having trouble with gear? I've seen a lot of MRTs at Stanage in particular over the years and I think it's mainly been incompetence of climber (myself included) and sheer popularity that have been what has made the venue a black spot.

 flaneur 05 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

Gogarth is covered by the Ogwen Valley Mountain Rescue. They have easily accessible incident records from 2008 to the present. Ten minutes of searching reveals they have not recorded a single rock climbing call-out on Gogarth in that time.  There are dozens of climbing incidents attended on the faces of Tryfan over the same period.  

Equating apparent risk (loose rock, poor protection) to frequency of accident is wrong for many obvious reasons. You need to look at data rather than making assumptions about accident black spots.

 dunnyg 05 Mar 2021
In reply to flaneur:

I've seen a climber rescued from gogarth main cliff during that time. Perhaps the coastguard co ordinate see cliff rescue?

 Macca_7 05 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

I would add the dewerstone to the south west crags there is at least one serious incident a year there.

Similar to Chudleigh but also has some poorly protected easy routes which causes a few of the problems.

Hope that helps 

 Trangia 05 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

Crib Goch

Broad Stand

Jacks Rake

All scrambles which attract quite a few  who believe, incorrectly, that because they are not traditional graded rock climbs they must somehow be safer.

Post edited at 22:28
 Hat Dude 05 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

> Accident Blackspots for Climbers 

Betws bends on a Friday night

 C Witter 05 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

> Idwal Slabs, Ogwen

> Many novices first experience of mountaineering is on these deceptively easy looking slabs, but danger awaits.

Comedy gold. Thanks for that!

Climbing. Deceptively easy! Or is it?

"My brother was addicted to Peak grit. At first it was just the odd slab at the weekend... now he's quit his job so he can jam cracks in the week."

Climbing: just say no.

2
 profitofdoom 05 Mar 2021
In reply to flaneur:

> Gogarth is covered by the Ogwen Valley Mountain Rescue. They have easily accessible incident records from 2008 to the present. Ten minutes of searching reveals they have not recorded a single rock climbing call-out on Gogarth in that time.....

But there have been some deaths at Gogarth, including someone I knew personally 

 Duncan Bourne 05 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

How does Pembroke stack up?

I remember one friend had an accident there a few years back from a falling block near Mowing Word

 Dan Arkle 05 Mar 2021
In reply to flaneur:

I'm not sure if this is true. 

When I was finishing a route at dusk in 2018 some other climbers called a rescue out on me, and it was definitely the coastguard (land based) rather than Ogwen MRT. 

 EdS 05 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

Almscliff 

 mrjonathanr 05 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

> Accident Blackspots for Climbers... Ulysses or Bust etc.

Is Ulyssses an accident black spot? I had no idea.

 trouserburp 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

I can't find the original origin of 'blackspot' but the old road signs were to warn you about risks you can't see for yourself. The risk on an unprotected slab is so obvious I wouldn't be surprised if  accidents are proportionately low.

Maybe look at MRT callout rates compared to number of logbook visits or BMC incident log for recurring accidents of an unexpected nature 

 Bulls Crack 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

Are you thinking of introducing Smart Cimbways?

 Mark Stevenson 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

I'm not convinced by all the crags you mention as I'm not entirely sure whether you are investigating the risks of rescue or injury or death which are not necessarily correlated.

However there are definitely some general trends as regards locations, at least one of which you've already commented on:

  1. Rockfall on the highest mountain routes. For example, multiple fatalities and injuries in the Northern Corries, the Long Climb on the Ben and other rockfall incidents. This is probably the largest single fatal risk within UK rock climbing. 
  2. Bad lead falls, including fatalities, on inland (predominantly limestone) cliffs. Certain cliffs like Symonds Yat and Dewerstone have had relatively large numbers of fatalities over a number of decades. There are also regular incidents on other crags varying from the likes of Cleeve Hill and Chudleigh to Stoney and Avon Gorge. The common thread is probably the relative difficulty in placing protection and specifically wires compared to gritstone and popular igneous mountain crags. 
  3. Serious accidents on relatively popular sea cliffs such as Subluminal or St Govans.  The solid bedrock and boulder strewn landings and ending up in the sea are the big issue here along with general route finding and rockfall risks. Not entirely certain that accidents are more likely, I think it's just that the consequences are more serious.

Finally, there are two other general trends that are not as location specific but obviously are more of an issue at some venues:

  1. Route finding errors, especially on easier routes, leading to accidents on all types and styles of crag.
  2. Approach and descent accidents, often but not exclusively on scrambling type terrain.

I'll be interested in seeing any conclusions you come to but I'd probably be focusing much more on the key risk factors (loose rock, protection, landings, route finding, approaches/descents) rather than trying to narrow it down to the level of individual crags.

 wbo2 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

Is Craig y Bera actually a blackspot  for accidents? How many a year if noone actually goes there? 

Quite a random list? Avon? 

 summo 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

Swirral Edge when there is any snow or ice on it. It's short, not that steep, but for someone chancing it without crampons or unaccustomed to them, the consequences of just a single stumble are serious.

 Red Rover 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

You should give us some data to back all this up! I doubt there are many accidents at Cloggy for example as novices don't really go there.

And why do we have this myth that the descent from Idwal Slabs is difficult to find or dangerous:? Especially now there are arrows scratched into the rocks showing the way (which I disagree with, people need to learn). If that descent is hard then you should be with somebody who is experienced and can rope you down it. The ordinary route was probably my fifth outdoor climb or so and, not being a mountain man, I still managed to walk straight to the descent and shimmy down it.

Post edited at 08:53
2
 Red Rover 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

I think the mistake you're making is assuming a dangerous climb or cliff will cause lots of accidents. This isn't really true because difficult and/or dangerous climbs usually don't get that many ascents. For example, California Arete is a total chop route but it's not an accident black spot because only a few very talented climbers ever attempt it, and these people can climb 4c all day without coming close to falling off.

Accident blackspots are more likely to be climbs that are popular with novices, expecially if the gear isn't obvious. For example Grib Goch is an accident blackspot despite it being a grade 1 scramble. it gets tens of thousands of visitors, many of which shouldn't be there (I have found people stuck in the middle having a meltdown and had to get them off before).

Monkeydoo 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

Are you trying to have the sport ruined by the health and safety police or something  ? You said yourself all climbing is dangerous    , , ,  nuff said in my lowley opinion !

4
J1234 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

I am not clear why so many people dislike your OP.
Do they not like a question that implies that climbing can put you into dangerous situations. 
Many of the dangerous places are descents, such as Broad Stand or Raven Crag, either climbers coming down, or non climbers attempting to go up, or down.

I came to the outdoors late in life, late 30s?, anyway I recall in the early days chatting with a bloke* on the The Old Man of Coniston and he pointed out Dow Crag, and he explained a little about rock climbing and suggested that if I progressed with hill walking I would end up scrambling, but I should avoid that, far too dangerous, just go rock climbing with ropes etc, far safer. I would say I now agree with him.

Getting to the top is not the goal, the goal is getting back down safely.

* I have always wondered who he was, I suspect a very experienced climber and fells man.

Post edited at 08:57
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 wercat 06 Mar 2021
In reply to summo:

The Late Great Ray MacHaffie (may his name live on) would nominate Great End during his talks, even for the number of bodies he'd carried out of it

Post edited at 08:59
 static266 06 Mar 2021
In reply to J1234:

I think most agree that there’s not an issue with the OP’s question just where are they plucking their data from. 
 

I’ve worked at Pen-y-Pass for years and certainly don’t have knowledge of all climbing accidents in the area but details would trickle back in amongst the constant hill walking rescues. From what I saw rescues on the Llanberis Pass crags were just as frequent, if not more so, than the big mountain crags such as Lliwedd, Clogwyn y Ddysgl and Clogwyn Du’r Arddu. 
 

You would really have to trawl through online reports or get in touch with a few long standing rescue team members in certain areas for anything other than anecdotal or made up data. 

 Red Rover 06 Mar 2021
In reply to J1234:

I think peple are disliking the post because there are no data at all to back it up with, and the OP has just assumed that lots of accidents happen on difficult routes.

2
 GrahamD 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

As others have pointed out, you need to make a very clear distinction between objectively dangerous cliffs (eg Cilan Head) versus cliffs that see many accidents (I would hazard that Horseshoe comes in here)

 Andy Clarke 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Monkeydoo:

> Are you trying to have the sport ruined by the health and safety police or something  ? You said yourself all climbing is dangerous    , , ,  nuff said in my lowley opinion !

All climbing may be potentially dangerous but the huge majority of climbers go to significant lengths to mitigate this. Shuffling up a gear-laced Severe 10 minutes from the road at Stanage would hardly register on the danger scale. On the other hand, on-sight soloing close to your technical limit would be criticised as irresponsible by many. There aren't many of us have the genius of Julian Lines. Those who like to lace will no doubt welcome this article. I enjoy the odd solo but I look forward to it with great interest.

Removed User 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

Nicely done 9/10

2
 Mark Eddy 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Trangia:

The entry in the current FRCC guide for Broad Stand is 'Un-gradeable'! Having been up and down it a few times I can vouch for it being an unpleasant section of crag. But it's historic, so will always attract folk.

Post edited at 09:36
 gravy 06 Mar 2021
In reply to GrahamD:

Having climbed in most of the places listed here I think I can say with confidence that busy, honey pot crags elsewhere account for the vast majority of accidents. Just because a place is big, scary and has a lot of additional hazards doesn't make it an accident blackspot.

I really mistrust the OPs motivation and methods. As mentioned by others, what is meant by a climb?

Shitty peak quarries, easy SE fleshpots, beginners crags with no particular hazards and anywhere with an appeal to large numbers of visitors (esp. "challenges") seem to amass the greatest density and proportion of accidents.

You only have to read a few MR annual reports to know this.

Scary, out there places tend not to attract the people who fill the incident reports.

So what is meant by an accident blackspot? somewhere notoriously scary or intimidating isn't the same thing.  Somewhere with a high number or high proportion of incidents isn't the same thing. Somewhere adventurous isn't the same thing.

My guess the definition about what the OP is looking for is somewhere "numpties should avoid", in which case I raise to Mount Snowdon and the tourist track up Ben Nevis.

 Mark Eddy 06 Mar 2021
In reply to flaneur:

Gogarth has seen rescues during that time, most likely coastguard involved.

J1234 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Red Rover:

> I think peple are disliking the post because there are no data at all to back it up with, and the OP has just assumed that lots of accidents happen on difficult routes.

Ah thanks, I would suspect the opposite TBH, that less accidents happen on difficult routes, its the easy bits where people drop their guard.

 Red Rover 06 Mar 2021
In reply to J1234:

No problem. I think the main factor for accidents is the popularity of the place with novices.

 DerwentDiluted 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

I have a couple of observations on 'accident blackspots' on gritstone, I can't speak for other areas.  These are my observations only, based on having attended a fair few accidents, as Chris Morris might say - There's no evidence for it, but it is none the less FACT.

Gritstone crags are busy, Stanage must see more MRT call outs to rock climbers than possibly any other crag in the UK, yet I think proportionately it is one of the safest. Of the Eastern edges Rivelin has the reputation for serving up the highest proportion of life-changing/threatening injuries. 

On Gritstone edges the proximity of the ground is a factor that is often overlooked. The proportion of ground falls is higher than mountain crags. It's obvious once you hit it.

Experience and competence are no defence against an accident. Most accidents I saw can be attributed to nothing more than misfortune. There are some obvious acts of muppetry (lets practice abseiling, well this weedy sprig of heather looks ideal as an anchor - I kid you not!) odd bits of gear misplacement, and a few miscalculated judgements but also the odd, the bizarre and the down right freaky (I'm thinking here of the guy who fell the full height of Stanage and was unharmed. The person he landed on....)

The only pattern I observed was that accidents seemed to cluster at about 4.00pm and seemed more prevelent on high quality routes considered easy for the grade, and ironically well protected. Normally at an intermediate level (VS-E1)  The bald slabs and aretes attract a self selecting group of well prepared suitors.  My non scientific conclusion was that a feeling was 'I'm having a great day, I've lead loads of VS routes, I'll finish off with Croton Oil/Knights Move/ Chequers Buttress'  99.9% do it and go home buzzing, a few find they were a bit more tired and the gear a bit more fiddly than they hoped, they come off and its hello ground. This could of course be considered incompetence, but I'd be more charitable, its the zone where competence can exceed experience, and I'd categorise this as a miscalculated judgement. Novices seem to be sufficiently risk aware/averse to not get over confident, and feature suprisingly low down in the numbers.

Like I said, just a few observations.

Post edited at 10:44
1
 Dave Garnett 06 Mar 2021
In reply to J1234:

> Ah thanks, I would suspect the opposite TBH, that less accidents happen on difficult routes, its the easy bits where people drop their guard.

Absolutely.  Actually, I think I can only remember two accidents (both at the Roaches) where someone had fallen off a hard(ish) technical route, hit the ground and hurt themselves.  On the other hand I'm aware of many instances of serious or fatal accidents due to loose rock, a mistake abseiling, lowering off or scrambling down a technically easy descent.

I think if you take crag with easyish routes but one or more of loose rock, non-obvious gear and awkward descents, and then multiply that by the number of relatively inexperienced people who go there, you end up with a reasonable prediction of a black spot.

A good example would be Pembroke.  When I was climbing there in the 80s I always thought it was pretty scary, but everyone said it was well protected and steep enough that you could fall off safely.  I never was convinced that the gear was quite as good as people assumed, and there were a lot of big abseils into serious situation, but nothing bad ever seemed to happen, despite people doing some pretty outrageous things, and I was forced to conclude I was a bit of a wimp. 

However, the people who were down there a lot at that time were pretty experienced and competent and there weren't so many of us.  Twenty years later, it was a different story.  Ramp up the number of people, include quite a few who were inexperienced and perhaps a bit gung ho and, suddenly it didn't seem so super safe after all.  I'm not saying it's a death trap, it's just that you need to know what you are doing.  Same with the culm, only more so.   

If I had to pick a crag with a reputation, I agree with Steve, it would be Raven Crag, Langdale.

 Wil Treasure 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

I can think of very few which would meet my criteria for a black spot. The idwal descent just about, because it does lure in the unwary. Routes like Tactician and the Arrow at St Govan's probably have more than their fair share of accidents, due to be being convenient and popular, but also having fiddly gear in a couple of tricky spots. Perhaps the Russian at Symond's Yat too?

I suspect the more useful trend in accidents is the mode in which they happen: Lowering off the end of the rope, being dropped by a belayer, gear ripping, mistakes threading lower offs etc.

 GrahamD 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Wil Treasure:

The Russian was notorious as a VS sandbag.  You keep getting drawn higher off the ground by what looks like a good resting jug which never is.

Anvil chorus as another tough VS does the same and sees a few wobbles.

 alan moore 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Wil Treasure:

> I can think of very few which would meet my criteria for a black spot. The idwal descent just about, because it does lure in the unwary. Routes like Tactician and the Arrow at St Govan's probably have more than their fair share of accidents, due to be being convenient and popular, but also having fiddly gear in a couple of tricky spots. Perhaps the Russian at Symond's Yat 

The Forest Review used to report climbing accidents at Symonds Yat so regularly that it started to name The Russian when that was where the accident took place.

It must be quite unusual for local non-climbing press to become on first name terms with the local chop-route!

 sbc23 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

Having re-read the OP, I agree with some of the comments above.

I think some of the most tragic (and hence black-spot) accidents are the ones where the risk isn’t obvious, easily mitigated and consequences huge.

I don’t think a standard unprotected grit slab counts. That’s just soloing with obvious risks. A grit slab with 5 horizontal breaks that won’t actually take cams is a black spot.

That’s why I suggested Raven Crag descents. Once you’ve realised the rock is sloping & dusty there’s a chance you’re over the edge. As experienced climbers have found to their cost.

There are few places and things like this in climbing, where publicity and wider knowledge would reduce tragic accidents.

examples :

Using elastic bands on open slings 

Lowering off long sport routes

single rusty pegs protecting crux moves in Lancashire quarries. Not super hard routes, E1 things where someone fresh out of a wall may have a go. 

loose rock on sport routes 

OP Sean Kelly 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Wil Treasure:

The funny thing is that we all know where walkers/scrambles and winter blackspots are. It's the rock-climbing blackspots that are harder to nail down. We are not just considering fatalities, but climbs/cliffs that witness above average accidents. Not every incident requires MR call-out. And the exit from the Idwal Slabs does not involve any walkers. The MR even have staff 'on patrol' here at busy times, so when the worst happens, rescue is very prompt. Obviously places like Stanage are incredibly busy at times, with both Trad & Boulderers out on the rocks. Consequently more traffic should mean more accidents. Interesting that one post suggested a time of day when most accidents occurred. And just think of the number of well known climbers killed abseiling or soloing down. Relaxing too soon?

Thanks for all the advice and please keep it coming.

1
 C Witter 06 Mar 2021
In reply to J1234:

> I am not clear why so many people dislike your OP.

First, because it's patently obviously that rock climbing is dangerous.

Second, because it's such a random list.

Third, because we've already had this conversation - and had it with more insight.

Black spots:

Tying in, abseils, in-situ anchors, being lowered off, top-outs, descents, easy ground. In short: anywhere you stop paying full attention, get careless or are likely to overlook the risks.

Headpointing a gearless grit arete is not a black spot. If you hurt yourself, I'm not sure it even counts as an 'accident' - because the dangers are so obvious. Likewise, climbing on sea cliffs or serious routes on mountain crags has obvious risks - some of which are beyond the climber's control. We know - or should know - there are risks and dangers, without a randomised list in which everything from climbing in Ogwen to soloing E8 has a "DANGER" sticker attached.

1
 Alkis 06 Mar 2021
In reply to sbc23:

> A least two fatal falls by experienced climbers from the descent route above Revelation that I know about (2018 & 2008).  Also multiple injuries of people descending the Middlefell buttress gully, boulder rockfall etc.

I hate that descent, especially in the wet...

 Jamie Wakeham 06 Mar 2021
In reply to sbc23:

> I think some of the most tragic (and hence black-spot) accidents are the ones where the risk isn’t obvious, easily mitigated and consequences huge.

> I don’t think a standard unprotected grit slab counts. That’s just soloing with obvious risks. A grit slab with 5 horizontal breaks that won’t actually take cams is a black spot.

Indeed - obviously dangerous routes are obvious, but there are routes which can catch you out. 

I think it's worth distinguishing between routes which have gear but it's an absolute bugger to place (Anvil Chorus is a great example of this - you can lace it up if you can somehow hang on for long enough, but those not in possession of enormous stamina end up sprinting for the end of the pitch and hoping that they don't fall) and the routes that trick you into getting into a place where the gear is much worse than you might have expected (a couple of good examples are Technical Slab and Jitter Face, both HS routes which look reasonable enough from the ground, where it is possible to be very committed by the time you realise you're effectively soloing).

OP Sean Kelly 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Incidentally I just noticed that the 'Insurance for Climbers' post has the most hits, around 10,300!

 Mark Eddy 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Alkis:

There is now an in-situ abseil chain (further left when looking out from top of crag), so thankfully no need to do this descent. 

 tehmarks 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

I think everything that I wanted to say has been said already. but my immediate reaction on reading the OP last night was inline with the consensus that seems to be forming.

I don't have data to prove or disprove it, but my intuition tells me that hard routes on crags with a reputation will not account for a large percentage of accidents. I'd expect that most accidents requiring help or treatment will happen either on easier mountain ground (where there are lots of things to hit on the way down and potentially decent run-outs to allow hitting them, combined sometimes with less reassuring rock and other objective hazards), or on crags where troubling the ground is an inescapable hazard - grit and sandstone crags being the obvious examples.

Edit: I'm referring above to the subset of accidents that happen as a result of falling off. Even more prevalent I'd imagine would be 'process errors' - failing to tie in correctly, being lowered off the end of the rope, abbing off the end of the rope, etc.

Post edited at 15:26
 Trangia 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

Another accident Black Spot is the Dorset Sea cliffs, there are the normal hazards, like loose rock, particularly in the upper sections not reached by  heavy sea splash, but another very sinister cause of too many fatalities is the sea itself. From time to time the base gets hit by unusually large waves which catch out the unwary completely swamping ledges near the base which at first sight appear to be well above the sea and dry. Add to this the rip tides which make swimming back almost impossible, even more so when weighed down with gear, there have been  too many drownings here. Seconds, and others waiting/belaying at the base should ALWAYS tie into sound belays. There have been incidents of seconds pulling the leader off when they get swept away. A mate of mine witnessed an horrific double drowning a few decades ago when this happened on what had appeared to be a calm sea, when out of the blue a rogue wave pulled off the second, who in turn pulled off the leader. Both finished up in the sea, unhurt and trying to swim back. To his horror they made no headway and both got gradually pulled further out. My mate repeatedly tried to throw a rope to them without success, whilst others rang the coast guard, but by the time help arrived both of them had become exhausted and disappeared. The rescue turned into a search and recovery of the bodies.

OP Sean Kelly 06 Mar 2021
In reply to wercat:

> The Late Great Ray MacHaffie (may his name live on) would nominate Great End during his talks, even for the number of bodies he'd carried out of it


Winter I presume?

Anyway, if the accident statistics from the MR in Europe (Italy, Germany and Switzerland mainly), and the AAC, the majority of accidents to climbers, as opposed to general walkers/mountaineers are attributed to bad belaying. Whereas Rock-climbing accidents in the UK (England & Wales) as elsewhere, is a marked minority in MR returns, and too small a category to make general assumptions, but falling is certainly a factor in both sets of statistics. And experienced climbers are more likely to have an accident, with males between 30/40 the highest risk. Actually picking Rock-climbing blackspots is not an easy science. A possible equation is = Traffic x Risk but I have a lot more research to do.

Post edited at 17:59
 Rog Wilko 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

One interesting approach might be looking at how many accidents there were on routes with reputation for being under graded (sandbags). The Russian would be an obvious example where I believe there have been many accidents and more than one fatality. It scared the sh1t out of me.

 Paul Tanner 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Red Rover:

Haha while its not that hard, its not really a myth, ask any alumni from Leicester Universty Mountaneering club 2011, I`m sure they`ll be able to enlighten you. If the weather is bad it can be hard to find. There have been groups that have been rescued from the top because they couldn`t find the way down. 

 Red Rover 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Paul Tanner:

That's strange. There are mutliple ways off anyway, you can get into the gully at several points or just carry on up senior's ridge. Surely by now there is a trough of footprints and a line of polish leading to the descent to compliment the arrows on the rocks?

 Paul Tanner 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Red Rover:

I`m just pointing out that there have been occasions that people have become totally lost at the top and have needed mountain rescue to help guide them off. This has happened so its not a myth. It can happen in bad weather. I like you am slightly baffled how this can happen but oddly it has occurred. 

 Red Rover 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Paul Tanner:

I agree. Maybe if a novice who isn't used to mountains is caught in the fog at the top of a big drop then simple things like following footprints don't occur to them? I can see how it would be frightening up there. You'd just think that people who would be afraid and confused like that would be with an experienced person.

 PaulJepson 06 Mar 2021
In reply to Rog Wilko:

I think The Russian is a combination of factors. The gear is pretty rattly and shonky; I don't remember there being much good in the first half. It also has a HORRIBLE landing. The first 5m or so is a scramble, which makes people feel like they're already quite high up on the climb when in reality they need to think like they're leaving the ground when the proper climbing starts. I thought it was loose and polished and not particularly good.

Limestone in general is comparatively dangerous. On other rock types you can have a bold experience if you choose to but you know what you're getting yourself into. On limestone your last gear could explode or peg pull out or you could pull off a block. You don't necessarily get to choose if you have a safe experience. 

If you look at winter then 5 finger gully and that one that avalanches next to ledge route seem to have a lot of people in trouble.

 David Coley 07 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

Hi Sean. I think it might help to get a pointer to the direction you might be thinking of taking the article. If the idea is to help people by getting them to be a bit more cautious in some locations, then your equation above of, traffic x risk, might not be all that helpful as we might expect more accidents with more traffic, and Stanage might be a very safe crag. Likewise Chudleigh and the Dewerstone. My guess is that the majority of trad ascents in the south Devon area are on just these two crags so the majority of accidents might be expected to be too. Same with the male thing. Males are over-represented in climbing, especially if over 30 and climbing trad.

Also MR stats might need using with care. A call out requires a casualty and that they can’t self-extract. The latter being a statement of the injury and the location, and possibly the people involved and their skill set. Many, possibly most (?) people self-extract to A+E I’m guessing. A broken leg at Hay Tor is different to one in the Ruckle.

I’ve self-extracted from the cromlech with a broken leg, from stanage with a broken ankle, from harrisons with a broken ankle, but by helicopter with a suspected broken back at En Vue. Hang on, maybe I’m the accident black spot….

OP Sean Kelly 07 Mar 2021
In reply to David Coley:

Thanks for the reply Dave.

It's just that it is fairly easy to identify blackspots for walkers, eg. Broad Stand, Crib Goch etc. And also winter, No 5 Gully  on the Ben, Great End's Central Gully, Snowdon Zig-zags etc. However with Rock it is not so easy to define. MR stats don't always name the accident locations as all the graphs are much more general. Short of investigating each individual accident, a mammoth task. However stats from Europe & America are more detailed in this respect, and attribute the major causes for most accidents. 

Obviously my post here is to get a general consensus about what climbers perceive to be problem climbs and areas. As has been noted, the way off can be the more serious part of some climbs. Eg. Revelation on Raven & Idwal Slabs exit. Again hidden risk from big waves on sea cliffs. I know of 2 on Gogarth (Main cliff) and witnessed another to a friend who was lucky to be washed back onto the ledge!

As for your unfortunate habit of breaking and twisting limbs, it must mean a new category in the  MR stats!

Post edited at 10:08
 Michael Hood 07 Mar 2021
In reply to PaulJepson:

My memory of The Russian (HVS 5a) - my mate was on the sharp end 😁 - was that it sort of led you on with the appearance of better holds and gear just above - and each time you moved up the holds and gear were no better than where you'd just moved up from - so it really required quite a steady lead(er) to stay in control.

Was a bit of a dangerous sandbag at VS, at least at HVS it's no longer a sandbag.

 petegunn 07 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

Most black spot areas are already published within most guide books to which they appear and also show areas of unstable ground or loose rock, areas to avoid etc.

I'm a bit wary that publishing an article where all crags listed within, may fall in to the hands of private land owners or insurance policy holders, this then, may not be to the benefit of climbers it is supposed to be. It feels like one of those good things that eventually turns against you.

 Jamie Wakeham 07 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

> As has been noted, the way off can be the more serious part of some climbs. Eg. Revelation on Raven & Idwal Slabs exit.

I suspect that the Idwal descent would much more accident prone if it wasn't such a popular crag.  As it is, newbies just have to follow the crowds - pretty much every time I climb there I seem to end up leading a few parties off.  If they were left to their own devices then I think there would be a higher incidence of people getting lost trying to find the descent, taking the wrong line, etc.

Conversely, if Raven were busier it might make the Revelation descent a bit safer!

1
 Dave Rumney 07 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

The Arrow on St Govans is the only climb where I've seen 2 nasty accidents - it got a reputation for it from people kicking their gear out low down on the steep bit. All the rest i've seen over the years I think have been fairly spread out and random.

ps. It's definitely the Coastguard that cover Gogarth in case of rescue. They all turn up with blue overalls and yellow hard hats.

In reply to Sean Kelly:

Well, you would want an 'accidents per punter route mile' metric, really.

OP Sean Kelly 07 Mar 2021
In reply to captain paranoia:

> Well, you would want an 'accidents per punter route mile' metric, really.

Unfortunately, or perhaps the other way, anyhow climbing incidents are not reallly comparable to road accidents as roads carry much more traffic and its probably easier to define what the factors are leading to such accidents. So more traffic, more info, more accurate stats. Easier to define a particular crag has problems, such as Raven or Chudleigh, or exit off Dinas Mot ( has this now got a chain lower-off?),  but not so easy for individual climbs. Perhaps a few exceptions like Anvil Chorus.

Post edited at 15:38
 Michael Hood 07 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly or anyone:

Which is the bit on Anvil Chorus (VS 4c) that catches people out? Is it the crack in the corner that's usually laybacked (can't stop to place gear?), or the traverse right after that?

 GrahamD 07 Mar 2021
In reply to Michael Hood:

In terms of serious accidents, it's people overcommitting to the crack above their gear and running out of steam.

 Gerry 07 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

Are you confusing having an adventure with having an accident? How many accidents and rescues have there actually been on Wrecker's Slab?  Sure it used to be pretty loose and one or two big names maybe got a bit worried, but isn't getting into worrying situations a bit of what climbing is about? Certainly not the same as having an accident. Anyway, Wrecker's has cleaned-up pretty well over the years and you'd wonder, these days, what the fuss was about (and it's well worth doing, too). Sure, the fact that some other routes on the crag have fallen down may worry some but to a dedicated Culm climber that's half the fun.......

 kevin stephens 07 Mar 2021
In reply to Dave Rumney:

> The Arrow on St Govans is the only climb where I've seen 2 nasty accidents - it got a reputation for it from people kicking their gear out low down on the steep bit. All the rest i've seen over the years I think have been fairly spread out and random.

I wouldn't be surprised if The Arrow accounts for a big share of Pembroke's accidents. Reputation of being 3 star and soft for the grade, but a pumpy first section with a difficult to place runner which as you say is easy to kick out.

 Chris H 07 Mar 2021
In reply to Michael Hood:

The layback ...very pumpy and easy to push on without placing gear and then run out of steam. Arguably should be hvs was in pat littlejohns book ( not renowned for overgrading).

1
 Andy Clarke 07 Mar 2021
In reply to Chris H:

Last time I was at Bosi a mate did exactly that. Cue one broken metatarsal. Once he'd been lowered I offered to climb up, get the gear out and solo back down. When it came to removing the last cam, I had a quick look down and fear soon put paid to showing off. I left it where it was, lowered off and scuttled away for an ab rope.

In reply to captain paranoia:

> Well, you would want an 'accidents per punter route mile' metric, really.

Miles aren't metric!

 Chris Murray 07 Mar 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> Indeed - obviously dangerous routes are obvious, but there are routes which can catch you out. 

> I think it's worth distinguishing between routes which have gear but it's an absolute bugger to place (Anvil Chorus is a great example of this - you can lace it up if you can somehow hang on for long enough, but those not in possession of enormous stamina end up sprinting for the end of the pitch and hoping that they don't fall) and the routes that trick you into getting into a place where the gear is much worse than you might have expected (a couple of good examples are Technical Slab and Jitter Face, both HS routes which look reasonable enough from the ground, where it is possible to be very committed by the time you realise you're effectively soloing).

unless, of course, you read the guide book 

TECH SLAB: "high in the grade" "with delicate stretches between well spaced holds, and distant protection"

JITTER FACE "A good route for bold climbers." "A pleasantly devious but unprotected way up the face"

 Mark Kemball 07 Mar 2021
In reply to Michael Hood:

> Which is the bit on Anvil Chorus (VS 4c) that catches people out? Is it the crack in the corner that's usually laybacked (can't stop to place gear?)

It's the crack, far better to jam and bridge. The  other problem is that depending on where the belayer stands, the gear can unzip from the bottom.

Post edited at 23:24
 Jamie Wakeham 07 Mar 2021
In reply to Chris Murray:

> unless, of course, you read the guide book 

Well, yes.  You could just look at their grades (both HS 4a) and that should tell you there's something a bit out of the ordinary, too.  And yet people still get caught out by both.

The CC guide to Anvil Chorus explicitly says 'the scene of several unfortunate accidents on... pitch 3, which can shrug you off without a second thought' but that doesn't seem to stop people breaking themselves on it!

1
OP Sean Kelly 09 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

So what is the problem with CENTRAL GROOVE? It has excellent protection  it's generally easy to place, the climbing is not overly strenuous or difficult  so why so many accidents. I know it's very popular but so are many other climbs that see this amount of traffic. Perhaps someone could enlighten me. I do know about the squirrels problem and looted sacks however!

Post edited at 09:56
 Dave Garnett 09 Mar 2021
In reply to Mark Kemball:

> It's the crack, far better to jam and bridge. The  other problem is that depending on where the belayer stands, the gear can unzip from the bottom.

Yes, why anyone who wasn't 100% sure would commit to laybacking on the lead is beyond me.  I guess that tells you something about my psychology (and my jamming).  

Laybacking when you don't need to is for showing off and/or seconding!

Edit: that said, while I was on the neighbouring stance of Venusberg last summer, I saw a rather distinguished gentleman of mature years absolutely piss up it by an elegant combination of jams and layback.  When I complimented him, he modestly said he was cheating because he'd led it before only about 30 years ago. 

Post edited at 10:26
 Will Hunt 09 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

Horseshoe Quarry seems quite disproportionately represented in the BMC accident database.

 David Coley 09 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

> So what is the problem with CENTRAL GROOVE? It has excellent protection  it's generally easy to place, the climbing is not overly strenuous or difficult  so why so many accidents. I know it's very popular but so are many other climbs that see this amount of traffic. Perhaps someone could enlighten me. I do know about the squirrels problem and looted sacks however!

What accidents have there been on central groove? Got any details? If so maybe we might have the answer. One thing is does have is a lot of hard climbing, not Diff with a 4b move. Hence I guess evenly spread runners, and one runner failing would almost guarantee A+E. Steep enough to pump out on; not steep enough to safely fall on. But I'm only guessing.

 Rob Exile Ward 09 Mar 2021
In reply to Will Hunt:

In my own experience St Govans is the place to avoid. Steep and by no means 100% perfect rock, routes becoming increasingly polished, gear easy enough to place but not always reliable... I've seen 2 really serious accidents personally and am aware of fatalities that have occurred there. I'm in no hurry to go back.

1
 Dave Garnett 09 Mar 2021
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> In my own experience St Govans is the place to avoid. Steep and by no means 100% perfect rock, routes becoming increasingly polished, gear easy enough to place but not always reliable... I've seen 2 really serious accidents personally and am aware of fatalities that have occurred there. I'm in no hurry to go back.

I was horrified when I went back to St Govan's about 10 years back.  The easy descents behind the pinnacle were polished beyond recognition, and Army Dreamers wasn't much better.

2
 lieraza 09 Mar 2021
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

I'm not keen on this area either, I had a most unpleasant time and very nearly a horrible fall on Chieftain (VS 5a) there when I was new to climbing and much too overconfident. I occasionally remember about it and shudder. It was my fault really but I like to apportion some blame to the route itself! 

 PaulTanton 10 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

I’m sorry but I don’t see the point in this. Climbing on any crag are dangerous. That’s climbing. Are you trying to put people off climbing? 
 

You’ve listed some of the finest crags in England and Wales. Reading the guide book for a crag will make you aware of the potential dangers.

 profitofdoom 10 Mar 2021
In reply to Trangia:

> ........From time to time the base gets hit by unusually large waves which catch out the unwary completely swamping ledges near the base......

That happened to me one winter at the bottom of Castell Helen, Gogarth. I was belayed (my mate was some way up the cliff), just above sea level, when a huge wave suddenly appeared out of nowhere, washing/ rushing along the cliff from left to right. The sea was not rough that day - this wave was exceptional and appeared without any warning. The wave went right over my head, tons of sea water. I was completely submerged. My mate, who saw it happen, was highly amused. Had I not been belayed I believe I would have been washed away

It's always been my custom to always belay right away when reaching the bottom of sea cliffs

Be careful out there folks

 GrahamD 10 Mar 2021
In reply to profitofdoom:

> That happened to me one winter at the bottom of Castell Helen, Gogarth. 

The ferry is notorious for causing this kind of a wave.

 CurlyStevo 10 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

By the same reasoning that as an intelligent life form, if posed the question are you on a planet with a larger of smaller population of your race compared with other unknown planets, statistically you should answer larger, as you have a higher probability of being correct. Most the accidents probably happen on the busiest crags.

In reply to Sean Kelly: Sea level approach to Sennen cliffs can present surprises!

 profitofdoom 11 Mar 2021
In reply to GrahamD:

> The ferry is notorious for causing this kind of a wave.

Thanks Graham, that occurred to me and after recovering from the shock/ dripping with seawater I glanced out to sea - no ferry (could have been one going into rather than out of Holyhead, I suppose)

 JohnBson 11 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

Are you talking about high risk areas or actual accident blackspots with recorded high incidence rates? Are you going by feel or data?

 Mark Reeves Global Crag Moderator 11 Mar 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

So where are you getting this data from? "Regular call out for MRT", As for the stuff you are suggesting for Llanberis area I am not sure I would agree with you at all.

I can only comment on my time in LLMRT over 10 years ago now. I don't think in the ten year I was in the team I went to cloggy for a rescue for anything other than multiple fallen walkers from descending the rail track in winter. Nothing to do with rock climbing.

Again maybe there was one or two callouts to Lliwedd which were often benightments rather than accidents from what I recall. Caused by late starts or poor judgement of ability. It was certainly never more than once a year if that.

However I went on at least two rescues for people falling off the second pitch of Main Wall.

Then there have been Multiple rescues in the Slate quarries, often belaying error or equipment failure caused by misuse. Most crags in the pass see one rescue a year, but I would suggest that the Grouchan, Cromlech and Mot are the most common, because they have the easiest routes and access. 

In general I found that rescues were more frequent at beginner venues and routes below VS, crags with routes above VS tend to be frequented by people who to a certain extent have experience. 

OP Sean Kelly 11 Mar 2021
In reply to Mark Reeves:

Thanks for your observations Mark.

I'm obviously after as much feedback as I can get before making any asumptions, but as to my original post here, well you have to start off somewhere. I lived in Nant Peris for 13 years so Lliwedd has come to my attention a few times in the past, both benightments and fatalities. What you said about belaying problems (climbing walls are well represented here),  and general inexperience and lower grade routes rings true. Lots more traffic on the Llanberis cliffs and the Quarries so law of averages suggests more accidents. I'm not aware of the problem of Main Wall but a popular route attracts many with mixed ability on what is a full on multi-pitch climb.

Some interesting comments regarding climbing on Limestone where slipping on polished rock is a widespread problem (Pembroke, Stoney, Horseshoe Q, Avon and Chudleigh to name but a few). Likewise what might have been a problem 25/30 years ago is less common today which might perhaps explain Lliwedd. Cliffs go in and out of fashion.

As I posted earlier, defining problem areas for walkers and winter mountaineers is somewhat easier and well advertised, but still walkers come to grief every year.  But nailing down crags/rock-climbs is not so easy. Not all accidents are reported, the BMC figures only go back 4 years or so, and not all accidents involve MR call-outs. Interestingly figures from Europe tend to feature more multi-pitch incidents which is certainly to be expected in the Alps. Looking at the BMC Near-Miss figures, it is amazing how many incidents are concerned with climbers making basic mistakes, tying into the belay wrong, harness improperly tied into, poor belaying skills, not placing gear soon enough and other general faff. The mantra of check and check again is so important, especially later in the day when for a variety of reasons mistakes are more likely.

ps. I did read your excellent article from 2009


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