UKH

OK, so on Saturday for the first time ever I abseiled off the end of a rope at Shorn Cliff. 

Hit the deck, bounced a bit and ended up face down in the dirt. 

Nothing else to say really except you can be experienced, comfortable and still make stupid errors. 

I feel an idiot, but a lucky idiot

Hope you are fine first. Think that most of the longterm climbers had a near miss or two, those who learn of these statistically survive longer. 

Oops.  Glad you're OK though.  Hope you remember your knots next time.

Its somthing that I only thought happened to complete punters until I did it (although I may well still have been right in my initial assessment) 

How did you do it? In my case we were pulling a single through the ab point and simpley didn't pull enough, allthough it looked like we had from the top (fortunately resulted only in a small plumet). I thought the gear had failed at first and was waiting for my partner to land on top of me.

Yeah it was a single. Threaded through mallion,  chucked 1 end down and saw it hit the deck (or so i thought) then chucked the other end off and set off. 

No knots, no looking below me, stupid stupid mistakes. 

Just a very bruised bottom, scrapes, rope burn when it pinged me off and a dented ego. All good

Fair play for posting, I know Shorncliff and it would be easy to hit a rock in the wrong place and the outcome be different. I hope you're well, get back on it. Serves as a reminder for the rest of us as we all get back up the crags.

Chris

The fact that this type of error occurs to experienced climbers with some frequency (and typically with severe or fatal consequences) is a pretty good argument for changing our ways, if we haven't already, and knotting rope ends as the default procedure.

You do have to remember to undo the knot in the strand that will be pulled through the anchor!

It was certainly a wake up call for me, and a reminder that its those times your comfortable/in a bit of a hurry and things look safe that these accidents can occur, not when your scared shitless and paying attention! (Allthough in my case I was retreating off a sandstone tower I had no real business being on in Ethiopia so I really have no excuse)

Don't you tie both ends together in a single knot? Anyway, that's what I failed to do when I abbed off the end of a doubled rope. I was 18 on a pull-through trip down a Yorkshire pothole. It was a series of fairly short vertical drops which I was descending when I suddenly found myself going faster than I'd wanted. I hadn't equalised both ends and tied them together so when I reached the short end off I flew. Luckily I landed on my back in a deep pool. I felt very shocked, very stupid and a lot cooler! At that age though it's soon shrugged off and put down to experience. I've never accidentally abbed off the end of a rope since.

Yeah, as well as being aware that knotted ends blown far out left or rightwards and wedging in a crack is the thing of nightmares!

(Eliminated of course by letting the rope out gradually during the abseil).

Complacency is the danger with abseiling as its technically so easy.  Knots or no knots is a matter of situation and choice - the main thing - as you are pointing out - is to pay attention and make all decisions consciously rather than by default or by rote.

Doing just that resulted in the worst rope tangle I have ever experienced as all the twist got pushed to the end of the rope and had nowhere to go. I was dangling on the ab for at least an hour trying to sort it out. At one point I genuinely thought I might have to get rescued. It wasn't a good day for abseiling, the pitch before a friend had forgot to tie knots and went off the end of the rope. We were about 200m up but miraculously he hit a ledge 6ft or so below him and escaped unscathed. 

As a related aside to the main point...

Last week I got up my (overhanging) route followed by 10m of rambling ground to the top. I wanted to be near my second for belaying, so on safe ground I untied, tied the ropes to a tree, abseiled down to a ledge above the steep section and clove hitched into them to belay there.

My second came up, passed me by, and I got him to belay me from the trees above.

Except before climbing up to meet him, I unthinkingly took the clove hitches out the HMS, as you do every time normally when they shout on belay. But because my ropes were tied to the trees above and not me, I was standing unroped above a drop and grabbed the ropes to clove hitch back in.

A classic case of following automatic procedure without scrutiny. Habits are good, but not always.

Anyway, just thought that had some relevance to the topic..

Yikes - very glad you're okay, and very glad you did it at Shorncliff and not 200m up somewhere. Certainly possible making silly errors no matter how experienced and comfortable you are. Being comfortable is in fact maybe part of the problem? Abseiling puts me on edge enough, no matter how well-practiced I am at it, that everything gets checke thoroughly, thrice over. I imagine that if you're a normal person and not shitting yourself every time you step over the edge, the potential for errors to creep in must go up slightly?

Again, glad you're okay!

If you're trying knots, tie one in each end (so the twists flick out).

Never had this problem. Maybe it's the device you're using. Retreating off routes I'd just use my belay plate. Underground it was a rack (a kind of alloy barred steel oval). When Petzl Stops came out we'd abb one side of a doubled rope using a krab arrangement at the belay which enabled the rope to be retrieved.

Or knot both strands together...

Glad you’re ok. 

Lucky. make sure to buy a lottery ticket this weekend.

As with belaying,chatting can be a lethal distraction. Was chatting with mates on the deck at Stoney,set up the ab,got to about 14 metres off the deck and felt the rope going light in my controlling hand. Stopped the ab. 2 feet of rope left on one side of the rope. Managed to sort it.Told one of my mates today to stop chatting to the other mate who was belaying me and not watching.

In regard to some of the comments made about my remarks, the first thing I'd say is that I chose my words carefully: knots at the end of the strands should be the default procedure, meaning what you regularly do in the absence of other considerations.  It isn't what you do for every situation!

If it is windy enough to blow the ropes horizontally, they shouldn't be thrown with or without knots in the end.  I think the best thing is to lower the first person down, but a other option is to saddlebag the ropes and have the first person down carry the coil(s) down with them, paying out as they go.  In this second option, the rope-ends can be knotted.

If there are big trees on the cliff below, one has to be very careful not to throw knotted ropes into the trees.  A knot jamming in a "Y" can make for a proper epic if the jam is high up in the tree and far out from the cliff.  Best to simply lower the ropes in such cases rather than throwing them.

I don't think that tying the ends together works well a lot of the time.  What happens is to some extent rope and device dependent, but terrible tangles can accumulate.  Separate knots in the ends of each strand are a better idea in general.  The only advantage in tying both ends together is that you'll untie it before pulling the rappel so won't end up with a knot jammed above in the anchor because you forgot to untie it.

I managed to rappel safely for more than 50 years without knots in the ends of the ropes.  But as I said, when  an easily-preventable but quite likely fatal misstep happens to experienced climbers over and over, a reasonable person has to ask what makes them immune to this particular error.  I found I had no good answer to that question, so the knots went in.

I clip the ends to my gear loops. Throw the middle and ab down. A few more bits of untangling on the way down but you can’t lose the ends or go off the ends . 
Done this since abbing off the ends on the peigne slabs in Chamomix first abseil. Free ends went through my hands, rope stretch took the rope out of reach. 
luckily I had a hold for my left hand at the time and was looking for the bolt. I’ve never felt so alone and vulnerable as I waited for my mate to bring the ropes back in reach. 
no bolt, no rope and 400m of drop under my smearing toes......

still scary after 25 years!!!!

Totally agree. I'm famous for saying ^oi, stop chatting" to my belayer when leading!.

And before I set off on an ab I always talk out loud to myself saying "abseil point, check, belay plate on harness check, rope through belay plate check, screw gate done up check, weight the rope....." 

Can't believe I missed the obvious extra check...!

Yes, got that tee shirt !

Interesting.  I say checks out loud myself.  I started after a close shave abseiling and then continued doing it as a Private Pilot.

I find there's something about our psychology that means that 'silent' checks can become rushed, or incompletely done.  Actually saying the checks to yourself appears to endure that they are carried out properly.  I always do so, even if it makes me look like a nutter, I'm still here. QED!

Prussik??????????

I have no idea why you are getting dislikes for advice which boils down to 'assess the situation and adjust your procedures accordingly'!

I would add however that I am not too much of a fan of lowering, as often the abseil point is back away from the edge of the cliff, and the rope will therefore have to run over the edge and through the mud and dirt.

Knots are useful when abing a distance less than the length of a cliff - but when abing on a single one should always ensure the centre of the rope is clipped into the abseil point, either using the centre marker or measuring it out with your hands.

You've made my hands sweaty

"I find there's something about our psychology that means that 'silent' checks can become rushed, or incompletely done. "

I find that if I dont say it I dont remember doing it and then either remember not doing it and redo the checks before or spend the entire time paranoid iv not done a check. Also talking is therapeutic as i hear myself doing the checks so feel reassured 

This seems like a good idea, especially if you clove hitch the ends to the krab on your gear loops so you can't inadvertently leave a knot in the end that gets pulled up to retrieve the rope.

Note that if you are abseiling off a standard-sized maillon, you only need to tie a knot in one of the ropes, the one that runs through the maillon. If you abseil off the end of the opposing rope it doesn't matter because the rope you end up on will be blocked by the knot in the maillon.

On multi-pitch abseiling this is very useful because you simply tie a knot in the end of the rope you feed through the maillon. You don't have to waste time pulling the other end of the rope up and tying a knot in that too.

Sounds complicated but it's not really...

Haha yeah my only brief glimpse into being Alex Honnold!!

Glad your okay

I usually climb on 50m half ropes so it would be very hard to ab off the end unless it's a multi-pitch abseil.

If you abseil off one side of a doubled rope, you will fall a very long way before the knot reaches the maillon, or have I misunderstood what you are suggesting ?

Are you saying that a Prussik knot would stop you abbing off the end of a rope? Or simply stating that a Prussik knot should be a default part of the check list? 

You've misunderstood, but like I said it sounds complicated. Certainly feels complicated to explain!

The knot you've tied your 2 ropes together with, will block in the maillon on the TOP rappel anchor. So the fall will only be a matter of centimetres.

If you are only using one rope to abseil with, this technique will not work! Unless you tie a bight in the middle that is.

Glad you are ok. That could have been "the momentary negligence" that "can destroy the happiness of a lifetime" that Whymper warned against if you choose to climb, in Scrambles Amongst the Alps. 

The closest I've come to destroying mine was also an abseiling incident when I was young, inexperienced and cocky. It was in 1960s, I had just climbed Key Wall on Stone Farm Pinnacle and decided to use the belay anchor sling which we had put round a sort of bollard formed by rope grooves  below a bulge. That was fine with the top rope system exercising a downward force on the sling and krab, but I hadn't taken account of the fact that as I backed off for the ab, the force was horizontal, even slightly up. Very very stupid. One moment I was backing off, a split second later the rope went slack and I was falling backwards, the height was such that I did a complete somersault and landed on my feet and knees at the bottom shaken but not stirred just winded. Any higher or lower and I would have landed on my head or back.

Only a few years later Tom Patey was killed in an abseiling incident, and whilst I continued to ab, when necessary, like getting off a multi pitch route, during my climbing career, it was never something I enjoyed. Probably one of the main causes of death amongst experienced climbers, as so much can go wrong so easily if you don't stay alert.

I mean: if you're only using one rope doubled over to abseil with, this technique will not work....

Basically you have to be abseiling on double ropes and there has to be a knot in them at the top maillon. Pretty much the standard abseiling scenario for descending multi pitch routes.

To understand better, imagine you're abseiling on a single rope with a tag-line for pulling the ropes down. You only need to tie a safety knot in the bottom end of the single rope, there doesn't need to be one in the tagline. With 2x half ropes it's exactly the same concept, you only need a knot in the bottom end of one rope - the one that is passing through the maillon.

and if the other strand runs through the abseil device  the knot at the maillon will be on the loaded side and will follow you down at 10m/s2. 

 

Or if the ab station isn't equipped with a standard sized mailbox.

Definitely a default part of the check list for any abseil regardless of length, location or situation.

As for stopping you abbing off the end of the rope. Certainly could go some way to alleviating that easily accomplished error & also enables you to stop hands free to either rectify the rope length differential or to attach another prussik & start ascending back to the anchor.

Really surprised that there is no mention elsewhere in the thread about the necessity of using a prussik.

The rope which will hold you due to the top knot blocking in the rappel maillon is also the rope with the safety knot tied in the bottom.

I'm giving up now. If you still don't get it, just keep pulling up the end that's fallen down the cliff face and tie a knot in it. Thing is, that's the time wastey bit that makes people not bother tying knots in the first place!

In that case, use a smaller envelope!

Slightly bizzarre...so you tie a knot in 1 end  but not the other end for the odd occasion where your edk is threaded through a maillon and not a sling, tree, spike.? (...i've never had any difficult tying a knot on both ends and have long relied upon having a 'combat' system that works and is simple that you do when you are tired, fecked and up against it, in shit weather and my brain is stretched...which is when you are most likely to want it.

I agree. but in reality do you think it would tighten enough in time once the end of the rope has gone through the ab device? 

For decades I didn't use one, people tended not to in those days,  it was only in the 1980s/90s that I started to, but even then you had to hold it quite loosely in your hand to allow it to run without prematurely locking up, which meant you would still drop a bit when your weight came onto it meaning that it was likely to come off the end of the rope too before it locked.

Still better to use one though because abbing off the end of a rope isn't always a total surprise, you may realise it's a developing crisis before it happens and lock it off.. You will then need a second one easily accessible to tie on before starting your self rescue.

Don't you just love auto correct?

Personally I always use the ab device on a lanyard so it’s Extended away from my body. The Prussik is then attached via a krab to your belay hoop on the harness.

The rope obviously then goes through the Prussia first on descent mode, goes some way in warning you of any shortfalls or rope mismatches before they occur.

I'm not saying this Method is error  Proof but for me alleviates the need to tie knots in ropes which most certainly can introduce new potential problems in the descent mode.

By the time a prusik has slid off the end of a rope it’s too late.

I nearly always use a prusik, but it’s there to mitigate against other problems.

Bolt belays with maillons are very common on multi-pitch routes in Europe and America, even those that are predominantly 'trad' or Alpine in nature. This is also the case for ice-falls  (note that this technique will also work for V-thread anchors when the abseil ropes are fed directly through the holes in the ice).

Admittedly this is not the case in the UK, but in the UK you're rarely more than 3 abseils from the ground anyway so you can get away with a bit of faffing around.

For what it's worth, I agree this would save a lot of time if you were doing lots of abs on fixed anchors with maillons, like on rock routes in the alps. 

Whilst I've not tested your theory, I'm inclined to say that a prussic would add absolutely zero redundancy with regards to abbing off the end of your rope. Obviously using a prussic is advisable for other reasons, but I wouldn't go around thinking its a replacement for putting knots in the end of your rope. 

Ah, number 27 in the 50 ways to kill yourself abseiling. Missing the preceding 26 out  and going straight to 27 is pretty hard core..... Well done. But There’s no going back now, you have to continue to 28 and beyond....

(We’ll done surviving and for posting up a very relevant reminder-we all cock up)

I had a prussik on when I abed off the end of the rope (below the plate) It made no difference.

Right.  It's been tested, originally by French cavers.  The problem is that in order to get a friction knot to catch, you have to release it.  As long as you have a hand on it dragging it down, it isn't going to lock.  And the chance that, in a sudden emergency, you will release your grip is zero. 

So make no mistake: a friction knot will not keep you from rapping off the end of a rope.

Advantages:

• A real time-saver on descents with many double-rope rappels.
• Since you always put the knot in the non-pull strand, you can't forget which strand to pull.

Disadvantages:

• If you mess up and put the knot on the wrong strand, the system not only allows the rappeller to go off the end, it also results in the rappeller taking the rope with them, totally stranding the other party member(s).

There are some alternatives if there is no ring, or if the ring(s) are big enough to allow the rope-joining knot to pass through, or if one is rappelling with a single rope and so there's no knot at the midpoint.

• Have the second (and the rest of the party too if there are more than two total) install their rappel devices before the first person starts down.  (Best if everyone is using an extended rappel).  These devices will keep the ropes from running through the rings if the first person down loses control and falls onto a single-strand end knot.
• Use a stone knot, https://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techtips/the-stone-knot-a-canyoneering-secr... , a method popular with canyoneers who use it to enable two rappellers to descend independently but at more or less the same time, one on each strand.  The last person down removes the stone knot carabiner and rappels normally.  This is very effective and totally secure, the only drawback being the possibility of the last person down forgetting to release the stone knot.

I forgot to add: with the stone knot undone, the last person down has to be protected from going off the ends.  Just clipping the rap lines to the lower anchor is one way...