Thinking about Gordon's decription of The Groove (E9 7b) I've been wondering about what constitutes a "good line" . It's a popular enough phrase and it's been in use for long enough so
what are the criteria?
which route/s best fits those criteria.?
To me, a good line is a relatively easy (compared to its direct environment), prominent and organic line through rather improbable territory.
... Badile North ridge is a good line, Big Micheluzzi (Ciavazzes) or Fedele (Pordoi) or Comici (3 cime) or Tissi (Torre Venezia) are.
Like the Kangshung Face?
A good line is exactly that. An impressive feature which makes you go wow! A crack up an otherwise blank wall, an arete, a major Alpine ridge.
A good route is entirely different and is reliant on many criteria, of which the line is just one of.
One that says: "Climb me!"
I have a soft spot for Aretes. They are as pure as can be. Don't even need a crack to show you where to go. They also lend themselves to climbing with subtlety and you can quite often get up them without being a super strong Iron fingered hero.
For me a line like Vector is superior to one like Weaver despite the quality of the climbing on both therefore IMO Vector is the better route. I've always preferred lines that require a degree of route finding skill in order to get up them. It adds to the experience.
Al
A difficult though we'll protected crux, preferably just above the ground with easier climbing in spectacular positions further up. It's a bonus if your mate struggles to second it 😅
> A difficult though we'll protected crux, preferably just above the ground with easier climbing in spectacular positions further up. It's a bonus if your mate struggles to second it 😅
First move or two of Greengrocer Wall (HVS 5c), couple of moves left, sorted 😁
You can't necessarily define exactly what it is. But to me it's a route that you look at and instantly want to climb. The one that stands out most for me in that regard is Salango (E3 5c)
Agreed. The Philistine (E1 5b) might not be the best route that I've ever led but I'm sure it's the best line.
I've always thought of as good line as one you see from a distance, often from the car and go "wow, I want to climb that!" Something like Peapod at Curbar or Inverted V at Stangage.
Can't agree with improbable. There were plenty of good lines climbed in the early days when they must have been deemed probable by the pioneers. If Cenotaph Corner is a good line then so is April Crack.
One where the rock tells you where to go and gives you just enough holds to enable it.
A good line for me is definitely all about the aesthetics. It's the route that I feel compelled to climb as soon as I see it, regardless of whether it turns out to be Diff or E2. A feature that you just see and immediately think "now that looks cool".
As other's have said, a good route is not necessarily the same thing. While a good line is love at first sight, there are plenty of good routes that I'd easily walk past without a second glance if the guide hadn't told me it was worthwhile.
This one Messiah (E7 6c)
A great big inescapable groove, or corner
If it's in Scotland, anything that has "FA, R. Smith" in the guidebook description.
These are a few that spring to mind that I've done:
Agag's
Mousetrap (Creag an Dubh Loch)
Vulcan Wall
Trophy Crack
Centurion
Eagle Ridge
Route II, Diabaig
Squareface
> Primarily a line of east resistance.
Sounds like you're talking about the Kurst Salient!
Agags, Centurion and Eagle Ridge are the really big lines out of those I'd say. Mousetrap, Trophy Crack and Route II are just one line amongst many. With Squareface it's the rock feature itself which is so compelling, and the thought, 'wow, a v-diff goes up that?!'
The line that made me want to climb it even before looking what it was in the guidebook, and even then despite being just about my hardest lead at the time, was The Strand. I found the line so clean and compelling.
Another one I remember from early on is King Kong at Wintours (before rock fall removed the block at the start and when it was HVS). You can point the line out from half a mile away.
"The line that's just calling out to you, beckoning to be climbed... That's the king line.'
Sharma said it best!
A good line is like a good book (to paraphrase Swedish Tony)
It keeps you interested
It lures you on
It may not always be obvious where it is going but when you make the moves you can see why
It epitimises the best the crag has to offer
Pretty much anything at Wimberry Rocks. You can see every single one from the valley bottom. The aretiest aretes, wallest walls and crackiest cracks.
La Demande
Almost anything at Portishead Quarry. Especially Pickpocket (HVS 5a) or The Brink of Solarity (HVS 5a)
Have always been a bit feeble to man-up to the big, obvious lines and prefer routes that sneak and sidle way up a crag.
Gob, Mur-y-Nwl and Malbogies stand out for peering around corners and finding a way through more difficult ground. Wobbly lines, all of them.
Dunno what the criteria is but these 2 are unreal lines and cetainly some of best climbing anywhere.
> Pretty much anything at Wimberry Rocks. You can see every single one from the valley bottom. The aretiest aretes, wallest walls and crackiest cracks.
And you can also tell you're in for the hidiest hiding
Sometimes a good line is something you can see from a mile away and sometimes it's only really clear once you're on it.
Malbogies (HVS 5a) at Avon is a good example of the latter, as I had no idea what I was looking for amongst the jumble of overhangs, breaks and grooves of main wall. However, as soon as you're on it, it all falls into place and becomes very obvious. For such a complex and 'messy' cliff, I'd be surprised if anyone ever got lost or went off route on it. You just flow through the top pitch and every position leads obviously into the next. If you took someone who'd never seen the guidebook and asked them to point out the line, they would struggle for sure. It's a total wanderer but anyone who's climbed it would tell you it's a fantastic line.
A good line has always been the reason I trained for climbing - it's the line you see the when you turn up at a crag for the first time, regardless of if you've read the guidebook, that just calls to your soul and makes you hope like hell you're good enough to climb!
For me two places epitomize the feeling - Panorama on Kalymnos and Supercrack Buttress at Indian Creek.
- Follows strong feature
- A logical line (e.g. the easiest way through difficult ground; direct; weaving between strong features; not determined only by FA wanting to get in some new ground or by some quirk of history)
- Not easily escapable and not eliminate
- An obvious challenge
- Rock architecture and position
- History
E.g.
Oxford and Cambridge Direct Route (S 4a)
Botterill's Slab (VS 4c)
Laugh Not (HVS 5b)
Golden Slipper (HVS 5a)
Whit's End Direct (E1 5b)
Jean Jeanie (VS 4c), Hollow Earth (HVS 5a), Aladdinsane (E1 5a), Cracked Actor (E2 5c)
The Last Temptation (E6 6c)
Anything at High Crag, Buttermere
Occasionally, though, there are routes that aren't obviously "good lines" but are nonetheless delightful to climb, e.g. Aaros (E1 5b)
Haven't read the whole thread, so may be repeating others. ( there are some great minds here )
A good line for me would be a easy to follow route, of fairly constant grade climbing, possibly in a good position, probably one which you could look at and think, "That looks good". I doesn't have to be hard or easy, just interesting and good climbing.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/the_napes-662/tophet_wall-8209
the middle bit of https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/dow_crag_cumbria-355/arete_chimney...
> A good line is like a good book (to paraphrase Swedish Tony)
Swiss Tony, unless he's moved because of Brexit.
> "The line that's just calling out to you, beckoning to be climbed... That's the king line.'
> Sharma said it best!
I get "called" to climb some horrible shit sometimes, my mates think I tend to pick the most awkward, thutchy crap. We do have fun though, usually.
This is a good line
https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/digital_features/marmot_photography_awa...
Irritatingly, I should have been on the first ascent of that but chose to go to the Peak having been in Scotland a fair bit the previous weekends
High Crag _ best in the Lakes? I wouldn't argue.
>Mousetrap, Trophy Crack and Route II are just one line amongst many.
I agree about Trophy Crack. I need to do Integrity to compare. However, I think Mousetrap and Route II have great merit in allowing mere mortals such as myself to scale great cliffs by fine lines with great climbing.
>With Squareface it's the rock feature itself which is so compelling, and the thought, 'wow, a v-diff goes up that?!'
Yeah - I see your point. I plan to go back and do the Squareface crack pitch finish at Severe - this could arguably be the line of the crag.
> I plan to go back and do the Squareface crack pitch finish at Severe - this could arguably be the line of the crag.
One of the best easy jamming pitches around. Maybe with pitch 2 of Angel's Edgeway for the best combo?
Ha! I wouldn't go that far, but the lines tend to be very strong and everything is worth climbing
> This is a good line
> Irritatingly, I should have been on the first ascent of that but chose to go to the Peak having been in Scotland a fair bit the previous weekends
To be honest, you shouldn't have needed hindsight to see that was a serious error! Loving the book this is the front cover to. It could be repurposed for this thread with the title: "an illustrated guide to great lines."
> One of the best easy jamming pitches around. Maybe with pitch 2 of Angel's Edgeway for the best combo?
Brilliant! I've always loved jamming!
> "A good line is like a beautiful woman..."
lots of hard work and ultimately a complete waste of time ?
> - Follows strong feature, > - A logical line (e.g. the easiest way through difficult ground; direct; weaving between strong features; not determined only by FA wanting to get in some new ground or by some quirk of history), > - Not easily escapable and not eliminate, > - An obvious challenge, > - Rock architecture and position, > - History
A nice list
My vote is Mousetrap (E2 5a) in that case. It's such a great climb (one of the best and most memorable I've done) as well as a great line
> This is a good line
> Irritatingly, I should have been on the first ascent of that but chose to go to the Peak having been in Scotland a fair bit the previous weekends
Which route are you talking about? there looks like there at least two good lines on the link.
when I click the link using iPhone, it pops up a screen-filling image of Clo Mor Crack
> "A good line is like a beautiful woman..."
You are going to make an idiot of yourself?
Should have said " like a Swiss watch or a woman from anywhere"
A number of replies on here have said that a good line is one which is obvious and easy to read; so how can a comparison be made with any woman?
> That's the fella
> "A good line is like a beautiful woman..."
Come on - get your double entendres sorted and finish it off!
> when I click the link using iPhone, it pops up a screen-filling image of Clo Mor Crack
mine opens up on the article, Clo Mor Crack is the first photo that comes up, but it's all part of the article.
Towards the end there is what looks like a cracking route on Craig Doris on the Llyn
> A good line is exactly that. An impressive feature which makes you go wow! A crack up an otherwise blank wall, an arete, a major Alpine ridge.
Yes, a striking crack up a blank wall, especially. This is why I like Culm and slate, and some gritstone - I love a crack that is either fingery, smooth and stylish, or a wider, brutal fight for survival but, in either case, there is no viable alternative.
Something obvious like CC but also routes that find the line of weakness at a grade eg Vector. ie Joe Brown routes!
I opened it up to the floor
I don't tend to think of lines of weakness as a good line unless it's a continuous feature.
IMO good lines should be irrelevant to there being a climb there - it's to do with rock architecture.
Routes like Vector are good climbs, impressive because they manage to find a line through all that much harder stuff - but the actual line they take is all over the place.
I guess a lot of this discussion comes down to semantics.
Clo Mor Crack is definitely the one I meant and a stunning photo from Hamish Frost
> but the actual line they take is all over the place.
Then I would say that's a good line, it's not about neatness or directness, at least not in my book.
My only issue with a wondering line would be is it an easy route to follow, getting lost and of route, doesn't make for good lines.
> I don't tend to think of lines of weakness as a good line unless it's a continuous feature.
> IMO good lines should be irrelevant to there being a climb there - it's to do with rock architecture.
> Routes like Vector are good climbs, impressive because they manage to find a line through all that much harder stuff - but the actual line they take is all over the place.>
Yes, the quality of line comes down entirely to visual aesthetics. A dirty great chimney could be a monster of a line but a crap route.
> > but the actual line they take is all over the place.
> Then I would say that's a good line, it's not about neatness or directness, at least not in my book.
> My only issue with a wondering line would be is it an easy route to follow, getting lost and of route, doesn't make for good lines.
This I think is where semantics comes into it - a good line can mean many things - I don't think we need to go down the trad/free-soloing "renaming" absurdities - I think we can agree that climbs can have a number of attributes which make them worthwhile and (depending on our preferred definitions) give them a good line.
Beauty is in the eye...
There seem to be some who masochistically enjoy getting stuck into sopping wet chimneys that rent large cliffs from top to bottom in ruler straight lines - not my cup of tea.
Edit: just realised I'm talking to the same person about the same subject across 2 threads - messy
This is the line:
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/curbar_edge-21/the_line-42167
The great line is the one which asks you to put your cards down and find out what you are made of..
>
> Towards the end there is what looks like a cracking route on Craig Doris on the Llyn
The Scottish Llyn?! 😃
Lleyn seems less problematical to type : writing Llyn without the ^ can be confusing.
And I see that the sheep breeders are sticking with Lleyn.
My comment wasn’t addressing how to write or type it...
I didn't let that put me off.
> I didn't let that put me off.
I think it was an extra "on" snuck in, who knows ?
I think a good line is one that you feel you need to climb and turns out to be as good as it looks. One that sprang to mind is one that can only be seen from on the sea at Pembroke. It’s called The Rip and is on the corner of Lydstep bay. It’s a straight crack at HVS/E1. On looks it just beats White Heat.
I've a feeling the RIP can just be seen from one of the headlands. I'm sure I did it on the basis that, once glimpsed, it's such an obvious line.
Well now we are talking about proper routes. You may have heard me mention
before, it's a bit of an obsession of mine to find someone else who has completed an ascent though I have heard of a couple of aborted missions and Martin Boysen isn't answering my messages.
Anyway, I doubt that this route is visible from absolutely anywhere apart from a boat so it must earn points for remoteness: I can't vow for its line and that wasn't really a major consideration during my time on it.
Interesting to note that of six routes either side of Cordelia, only one has had an ascent recorded on UKC logbooks. That's a substantial area of rock with very very few recorded UKC customers.
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