UKH

Now, before you start lyinching me, we have to admit that with the vague and ambiguous messaging, people will go out climbing no matter what side of the fence you are sitting on. Should we discuss what crags are easier to implement SD and which should be avoided? This will have to be done by the BMC I guess as some point, unless climbing is banned for the next year (vaccine available mid-2021?). 

Clearly it will be easiest to social distance at crags that no-one else will go to. I don't think they will be the crags that the UKC collective or the BMC advertises as the ones we can all safely go to.

Martin

Further to the latest BMC thoughts on restarting outdoor climbing, it seems totally illogical to expect climbers to use two sets of gear, then sterilise the kit at home. What does that achieve? During the day's activity have all members of the group used the same or different holds? The rope will need to be used with gloves. Has everyone sanitised themselves, and the crag during the day. Not sure this has been totally thought thro.

I would have thought that it is perfectly feasible to practice social distancing even at popular crags like Stanage.  Even when it's heaving.  Avoiding touching contaminated surfaces may prove harder but does anyone know if gritstone retains the virus.  Statistically speaking I suspect the risk is very low on both counts.

Al

The problem with social distancing on a busy crag  is that while you might make every effort to play it safe, other people will either unintentionally or with wilful negligence  thwart you plans.

A bit like trying to maintain a safe gap between vehicles on the motorway: some people are oblivious to what this means and some ignore the advice/rules on purpose.

A bit like walking down the street, or indeed anywhere, then?

Al

Probably not, because if we do we'll all go to those ones.

Seriously Stanage would be a perfect place to go climbing, there are whole buttresses that are lucky to see one ascent a year. The problem Crags will be places like Lawrencfield, Birchen, Castle Naze etc. Popular crags with people climbing the same few routes, and nowhere nearby to run away to if you turn up and the crag is busy.

It's limestone season now anyway and I can guarantee that Horseshoe Quarry will have a ridiculous amount of people climbing there this weekend, while Stoney will have 3 star routes that haven't seen anyone on them since last year.

I'm dying to know.  What was the dislike for?

Al

No we shouldn't discuss crags. If you give people a list of acceptable crags, people will go to those crags when they wouldn't possibly have even been on their radar before therefore spoiling it for those trying to be helpful, local etc. If you can't think for yourself where to safely go, then don't go out. If in the unfortunate event you get to your perceived quiet crag and someone else is there, tough luck. Move on.

Not mine! 

And another just for asking. Seems a bit sad but hey ho. This will probably attract another.  It's a good job I've developed a thick skin following one or two bruising encounters on UKC

Al

It will be interesting how it pans out especially sport climbing / bouldering, I can see people using it as an excuse (valid or not) to hog a particular line. Multi day sieges with draws left in, others being denied a go. 

To the extent people opt to go out, think the main points will be to have plans A B C and D in case places turn out to be busy. Both out of the way places and large crags like the big grit edges and Chee Dale could work. 

Isn't it the behaviour of climbers on the crags that could be dangerous rather than the crags themselves. Distancing and sanitising before and after routes should be sufficient in most cases. Not sure whether gloves would actually hold the virus and be more dangerous.

Avoiding using the mouth as a third hand when clipping or placing gear can be tricky though.

Cracken Edge Quarries actually has a couple of worthwhile routes, so no need for all those on the Manchester side of the peak to come other and bother me at  Stanage Popular

UK has thousands of square miles of rock face. If each climber claims one section, there should be enough space to maintain adequate social distance.

Shotgun the corner of the Cromlech.

I've always wanted to terraform that sloping ledge. If we continue into June, I might also consider a moat and some arrow slits.

Shhhh it's one of my local crags that I can walk to! 

So I either got to freeze me nuts off up stanage Wednesday or kill me sen on that stoney E5 I been avoiding?

Can't wait.. 😂

Most street traffic tends to be constantly moving whereas typical crag behaviour is usually standing around in small clumps near specific spots for minutes at a time, probably more akin to shopping in a mall or a market place.

Must remember to drop those boots off for you. I doubt if anything will stick to THAT rubber.   

Unless the internationally agreed rules of ’Shotgun’ have changed since the Shotgun Ratifiaction Symposium 1987 I think you will find that the target of a ‘Shotgun’ call must be made with target in sight.
Although unpopular it is ok to use aids such as telescope or binos but NOT google earth.

👊
 

Which one?  

Sorry Graeme, I've bagged that. Just off there now to fasten my abb rope on the stakes for Wednesday. 

Just go dry tooling.... unpopular, doesn't touch holds, wears gloves, protected by bolts 

🤣

Quite frankly, I don't think social distancing is the slightest issue. Current guidance suggests you'd need to spend more than 15 minutes within 2 metres of someone to have a high risk of infection.

On sport or single pitch trad, I'd managed that on a normal day cragging without giving it any thought whatsoever. With a bit of effort I'd probably manage to keep over 2 metres away for the entire day. If pushed, I could probably also do the same on most well protected multi-pitch routes where there's some flexibility on belay locations. 

Also, as regards cross-contamination, the simple answer is that if you only climb in bright sunshine, practices a modicum of hand hygiene and avoid touching your face you can probably completely ignore it as a problem. All evidence suggests that UV radiation rapidly kills the virus.

Climbing in the shade with shared equipment is theoretically more of an issue but again I'm not convinced that the risks are that high and can't be addressed through good hand hygiene. 

Bummer, I'll have to settle for Cloggy then.

Does it? 

All evidence suggests that UV radiation rapidly kills the virus.

That's not what I read, although I think it's what everyone wants to believe. Two references one from the BBC, the second from the Journal of Virology. The abstract and the rest of page 1 is very understandable.

Perhaps a lot people reading UVC and interpreting it as UV. 

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200327-can-you-kill-coronavirus-with-u...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1280232/

Again, it's one of those things for which there is *kind of* evidence, but no one really knows for sure. The studies that have been done relate to high-energy UVC which you certainly wouldn't want to expose yourself to, and no studies that I'm aware of have been specific to  SARS-CoV-2. The majority of sunlight is UVA.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200327-can-you-kill-coronavirus-with-u...

All that said, it seems unlikely that the virus would be as viable in the outdoor environment as it would be under laboratory conditions.

Now that IS a thought! 

It would be good to have the opinion of the rescue services on this topic, ie which crags they'd rather extract someone from, which crags have poor parking and reduce the chances of social distancing, which hospitals are relatively clean from any Covid 19 cases, which rescue teams can operate 2m from each other etc.  Get their opinion and that will make it a lot easier to find a safe crag, especially when cross-referenced with the general consensus of a public forum post.

I'd be even more reluctant to accept your assertion that social distancing"isn't the issue"  as I would to believe your comment about evidence of UV destroying the virus rapidly.

At least bear in mind that other people using the crag might not agree with your take on SD.

Paul Dabisch, research lead on coronavirus at the US National Biodefense Analysis and Countermeasures Center as quoted by NBC News:

“What we have found so far is that sunlight seems to be very detrimental to the virus,” Dabisch explained. “And so within minutes, the majority of the virus is inactivated on surfaces and in the air in direct sunlight.”

Scientists say that could have a profound effect on eradicating the virus on everyday items such as shopping carts, playground equipment and outdoor furniture.

“Our preliminary results say, yes, that the sunlight on plastic will inactivate the virus very quickly. And so we're hopeful that that is the case,” Dabisch said.

Unfortunately, seems to be a current lack of anything peer reviewed, but the findings seem to be broadly in line with what other experts expect from experience with other pathogens.

The research on UVC is a separate issue. The interest in it has nothing to do with UVA and UVB not killing the virus effectively but is entirely because high intensity UVC is intrinsically much safer in terms of human exposure is has much wider potential applications. 

Exactly. If all climbers do their SD, and use hand sanitizer before and after climbing, i don’t what the problem is. You could even wear masks and then even better. I don’t see an issue going back to climbing if we are all sensible and prepared to sacrifice our preferred route/crag/parking spot

Isn't (solar) UVC blocked by the atmosphere?

Yes, UVC doesn't exist in sunlight, it's completely blocked by the ozone layer along with IIRC 90% of UVB.

It also doesn't cause sunburn, and doesn't seem to cause skin cancer, eye damage or other health impacts which is why there is currently lots of research interest in it and confirming that this is definitely the case. 

That is Far-UVC, a very precise window of the spectrum. UVC in general is both carcinogenic and cataractogenic, ie a serious health hazard.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-21058-w

I seem to remember long days in Pembroke without seeing a soul at the right time of year...😁

However I think the main issue is going to be the risk of travel to relatively isolated communities, rather than the risk of transfer between climbers (with a bit of common sense).

A lot of the places we like to climb are also places that many other people like to visit, and the locals will rightly be wary of visitors flooding back in from the cities.

I touched the rock for the first time again yesterday, in a small cove with only a couple of other climbers around. It was great, but I'm torn between thinking that on the one hand if the government is going to base it's strategy on is being out and about, keeping ourselves locked down instead is storing up trouble for Phase 2 of the easing, and on the other thing Phase 1 is likely to cause a lot of deaths.

Sandstone sea stacks in NW Scotland. 

If I mention some of the small crags with a dozen or so climbs near me that are rarely climbed loads of people will turn up.