What made all the difference?


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 C Witter 31 May 2019

A question many stuck in a long plateau, like me, may be asking:

Those of you who had a big breakthrough in your climbing - what made the difference? How did you make the sudden jump?

Was it training? Or climbing with new people? Trying things that seemed impossible? Fall practice? Or just something in the water?

Or… equally interesting: did you not see a big jump, just a gradual improvement?

Specifically, I’m interested in jumps within the ‘middle’ grades - i.e. not about starting out or training programmes at an elite level. For example, how do you go from being comfortable at VS/HVS to happily climbing E2s/E3s or from regularly onsighting 6b to regularly onsighting 7a?

I'm also more interested in improvements in trad grades, but comments on all disciplines are welcome.

Answers on a postcard to the usual address!

Ta!
CW

Edit: p.s. I've already read 9/10 climbers!

Post edited at 16:09
 yoshi.h 31 May 2019
In reply to C Witter:

Resting more

 GridNorth 31 May 2019
In reply to C Witter:

For me it was simply a case of trial and error and mileage but that was back in the day when gear was not as good.  Get up a VS fairly easily try a HVS (although some might suggest leaving out HVS and going straight to E1. I have some sympathy for that viewpoint as HVS can cover a range of sins and can often be harder than E1).  If you find the step up too hard, drop back to VS and do a few more then try again.

Al

OP C Witter 31 May 2019
In reply to GridNorth:

Aye - that's been my approach so far. The trial part always sounds good, but the error bit does put me off!

1
 whenry 31 May 2019
In reply to C Witter:

I've not read 9/10 Climbers (though I ought to)... but taking lead falls on trad routes (unintentionally) made a big difference to my trad climbing. 

 Tom Valentine 31 May 2019
In reply to C Witter:

Sticky rubber, chalk, Friends and climbing walls.

3
 charliesdad 31 May 2019
In reply to C Witter:

Plenty of training indoors, both bouldering and lead climbing, plus lots of outdoor mileage at grades well within my capability. Oddly enough, climbing with slightly weaker partners helped as well, as it pushed me to lead the tougher pitches.

OP C Witter 31 May 2019
In reply to yoshi.h:

On the cliff or in the pub?

In reply to C Witter:

Going to the Alps for the first time and a new pair of boots got me from steady at VS (August 1987) to E1 (April 1988), back in the day.  That, plus a winter spent running, making regular visits to the weights room in the local leisure centre and getting out to the hills and on the rock as often as possible.  It felt odd in March to be able to feel my hands when rock climbing rather than having to keep sticking them under my arms to try to restore circulation to digits turned blue with the cold air and cold rock.

T.

OP C Witter 31 May 2019
In reply to charliesdad:

I feel that climbing with less experienced partners helps you to become more competent, as you get used to taking on more responsibility. But, when I climbed with someone going much better than me, I jumped from comfortable on Severe through VS and HVS to leading my first E1 in about 6 days of climbing. I attribute this to: 1) getting to second harder routes; 2) having full confidence in my partner's ability to catch me/solve any problems that developed; 3) his generally upbeat and encouraging approach to climbing (and life more generally). 

Unfortunately that partner moved back to Norway and it's proved hard to find similar people to climb with (i.e. great company, willing and patient, but also climbing harder). So... I'm kind of inclined to think it's important to make sure to do harder moves on rock (e.g. bouldering outdoors) and to try harder routes, even if I fail on them (e.g. having to ask a partner to take).

Anyway, rather than this becoming about how I can improve, if anyone else has their own story about their rapid jumps up the grades, feel free to share 

OP C Witter 31 May 2019
In reply to Pursued by a bear:

I imagine that climbing in the Alps would put UK trad in perspective. I find after doing a bit of winter climbing that trad routes in sunshine feel really comfortable, pleasurable and well protected!

 krikoman 31 May 2019
In reply to Tom Valentine:

> Sticky rubber, chalk, Friends and climbing walls.


Chalk!! <shakes head> 

In reply to C Witter:

Aye, it certainly puts a different dimension on what feels exposed.

T.

 yoshi.h 31 May 2019
In reply to C Witter:

> On the cliff or in the pub?

Ha. Mainly in the pub, though I probably should elaborate. As horrifying this may sound to some, taking a two week break, every 3 months does my body a whole world of good, and I am finding that I am coming back stronger each time. This got me over a year long plateau going from around f7a to f7b. To put it in to context I am 31 and mainly boulder outdoors, and do most of my training indoors - 3/4 times per week - and I tend to put in a good effort each session (mainly bouldering).

These metrics probably scale on slider depending on age and the kind of training that you do?

I saw something from the Lattice boys recommending a full week of unbroken rest once a month with no real context, which I thought was a bit much but I think the point was, in general, that resting is quite underrated.

All that said, maybe in the time spans I am describing I have not plateaued at all, and just progressing slowly? All I know is that I have felt far better in the past year with more rest, and injuring myself less, which can't be a bad thing long term.

Post edited at 18:02
 GridNorth 31 May 2019
In reply to C Witter:

Back in the day when a member of our peer group managed to climb something that we had all thought was too hard for us, it suddenly became doable. That helped a lot and spurred each of us on to harder climbs. Although I dislike overt competition e.g. winners and losers, that sort of competition was good and very common.

 alx 31 May 2019
In reply to C Witter:

Not climbing. Taking up gymnastics, working pressing motions rather than pulling, learning the planche, actually becoming flexible enough to do the back bridge and hollowback handstand.

Came back after 2.5yr hiatus and smashed out a 7C+ boulder problem in a session!!

 Jon Read 31 May 2019
In reply to C Witter:

My humble insight, after a number of years on the edges of climbing, and going from bumbling along to getting nearly back to where I was, is that is took the convergence of three things:

1. get better shoes/boots -- after finding I was getting excruciating pain in big toe joints, and not caring for climbing that much, I moved to more comfortable shoes which didn't have anything like the sensitivity. They made everything harder, and new rock types a lot harder to trust. Now I've sorted out my diet and the joint inflammation is no longer an issue, going back to the size 6 5.10s made life so much easier on my arms.

2. just climb more -- at least twice a week at the wall, and ideally out at the weekend, was needed to actually improve. Always lead at the wall. A good run of weather and keen partners (see below) meant a good clutch of trad on-sight helped bring the confidence back and the grades went up.

3. find the right partner(s) -- keen, reliable, and encouraging. Made #2 possible, and reminded me that climbing was actually fun. Bonus points if they climb harder/more confidently than you.

In reply to C Witter:

Focusing on the job in hand and making sacrifes. This included

Loads of Billy no mates sessions doing reps on the baby bouncers.

Going to the wall on sunny days because you know you have a trip coming up.

Going to the wall to train rather than catch up with your mates. 

Losing your ego, try not to be afraid or embarrassed by making a prick of yourself trying something too hard. 

Falling, lots

Watching what you eat. 

Monitoring your weight. 

Monitoring your performance. 

Not drinking for around a month prior to each trip. 

Not drinking every night while on your trip. 

Try to climb with people who will try hard and fail. If your partners stay in their comfort zone so will you. 

You can have a great time ticking 6as all day and partying every night but you won't improve. 

You can try periodisation and other witchcraft but it is the icing, the cake is above. 

 Pefa 31 May 2019
In reply to C Witter:

I climbed with experienced climbers from the start but only seconding all pitches up to E2 but could not get past 5C no matter what I did. As for leading I felt I was wasting their time going up a S so left it to them to do mostly all the leading even though they gave me excellent encouragement but when pushed I would do a VS lead but it was going to fast for my liking.I had a break from climbing for 3 years and restarted with a novice seconding me but he couldn't 2nd hard stuff so I got in tow with a new bunch who could and this pushed me onto leading HVS and E1 as we were roughly pushing this at the same time so were at the same level of competency and I didn't feel guilty dragging better climbers up routes they could do easily. So for me it was all about being ready and confident enough to proceed up the grades at my own(slow) pace with others at the sameish level rather than others telling me that if I can second such and such (E2 5B ) then I should be leading such and such but on mountain multi-pitches, when I wasn't ready for that yet in my head. 

Post edited at 18:53
 nikoid 31 May 2019
In reply to C Witter:

Yoga, not a big jump but surprisingly useful. Wish I'd started years ago.

 john arran 31 May 2019
In reply to C Witter:

The difference for me, having been introduced to climbing by a wonderful 'mountain man' whose limit was VS and having reached a similar level (which felt desperate!), was then being introduced to a climbing partner whose normal grade range was HVS-E3. The simple act of climbing with someone with higher expectations was enough to massively change my own expectations, and it was only a matter of a year or two before I was an equal partner, and then some.

OP C Witter 31 May 2019
In reply to john arran:

It's interesting how powerful it can be to climb with other people. A parallel case: there are some people I've climbed with, where it's taken us all day to alt-lead 4 pitches. Yet, with the right partner, I've alt-led about 30 pitches around Ogwen in a reasonably relaxed day. Expectations are a big part of that! I knew not to faff around that day, placed less gear, and kept cracking on upward. After that, going back to 4 pitches in a day is... deeply frustrating!

Post edited at 22:11
 Ciro 31 May 2019
In reply to C Witter:

Building a campervan and quitting my job was the biggest plateau breaker so far.

 Tom Valentine 01 Jun 2019
In reply to krikoman:

Sorry, not having climbed for ten years I didn't realise you'd all stopped using it.

2
 deacondeacon 01 Jun 2019
In reply to C Witter:

These are the  main aspects that help up and coming climbers  

1)MILEAGE!  When you go climbing, don't do three routes, do six (or eight or ten). So, so, so many people go climbing and think two or three routes is a days climbing. Even if you drop down to doing a couple of diffs at the end of the day it's all experience and exposure, and helps with getting slick with building belays etc too. 

2) REALISING THAT THE E GRADE DOESN'T EQUAL DANGER! when you're creeping up the grades it's easy (especially with our E grade system) to think that routes get more and more dangerous the higher the E grade. This is not the case, the E grade takes into account danger, exposure, difficulty and sustaindness. A nice way of creeping up the grades is to find something hard and safe. Especially for a wall bred climber. 

 RBonney 01 Jun 2019
In reply to deacondeacon:

My jump was from 6c being hard to 7b being bit too bad in the space of about 8 months (during which I had 2 injuries too). I think to have a big jump you need a few things to come together, I don't think any single thing can make a big jump. I'll list what helped me. 

- climbing with someone better than you. It allows you to try harder things worry free and see how they do things. Most importantly it shifts your perception. That climb that seemed like a suoerhero grade turns out to be a warm up. You don't have to be some lizard alien to get up such and such a thing. Suddenly lots of things become possible. 

- conversely taking out someone less experienced. It gives you a huge confidence boost. 

- technique improvement. About a year prior to my big jump I got a job as a climbing instructor. The drills to teach kids technique really works. Use them and practice them. I never realised how poor my technique was.

- perhaps the most important, climb as much as possible. 

- use indoors to get fit then take it outside. Indoors you can get in loads of routes no problem. If you have a short walk then double up routes so you and your partner do 2 each. Outside its harder to get this as you have to do things with gear. 

- trust your feet. I don't know how you go from not being able to trust to being able to but when you can place a foot and weight it loads with out worry climbing gets massively easier. Perhaps the best way is to get on glass polished limestone. If you can stand on small, slopey, polished limestone edges all other foot holds will seem mega. I started going outside a lot at Malham, then the relatively less well travelled Leonidio crags felt fine.

- red point things. Its good training, its fun (for me) and I find it helps with head game. When your focusing on hard sequences at your limit there's no space for worrying about a fall. You just go for it! 

I personally don't think you need to train at the level you're talking about. Not physically anyway. Work on technique more. The only physical training I did was injury prevention. Hope this helps. 

 Mark Stevenson 01 Jun 2019
In reply to C Witter:

Well, I've spent about 17 years struggling to get from E2 to E4, at least in terms of being really solid at the grade. So I'm probably not the best person to answer in many ways.

However, this year is going really rather well so I've got a few insights:

- Mileage. Get some good productive and successful days out without worrying about chasing big grades too early in the season. This year, leading some E2/3 routes I'd seconded before seemed to work this spring. In previous years, lots of HVS/E1 routes definitely helped. Focus on volume and quality early in the year (or your personal climbing cycle).

- Don't be too impatient. Most years I've needed to string together about 20 days of trad before it all suddenly came together and I started getting on harder lines. This year it was only half a dozen, but that was off the back of an exceptionally good 2018.

- Inspiring, supportive climbing partners. Climbing with really good, pysched people is absolutely critical. You need people who will give you 100% encouragement and support when you make even the most tentative suggestion about trying a hard route. If you've put both the physical training and the trad mileage in, good things will start to happen as soon as you spend time at crags with the right people.

- Pick quality and inspiring routes. The better the and more enjoyable the route is, the more likely you are to perform. Also, focus on your strengths and above all, avoid sandbag routes, especially on gritstone. 

HTH

Post edited at 11:33
 jkarran 01 Jun 2019
In reply to C Witter:

Worked to improve flexibility. 

Got fit running, lost weight. 

Redpointing, learning to try.

Jk

 Mark Bannan 01 Jun 2019
In reply to GridNorth:

>  (although some might suggest leaving out HVS and going straight to E1. I have some sympathy for that viewpoint as HVS can cover a range of sins and can often be harder than E1).  

I have heard this viewpoint before but I disagree - If a route is given HVS and is harder than E1, surely it is wrongly graded!

 mrphilipoldham 01 Jun 2019
In reply to Mark Bannan:

Not necessarily, many will struggle up a steep but perfectly protected HVS crack but the same many would happily dance up a poorly protected slabby E1 (head game aside). I think these two grades are where fitness and endurance really start to make the difference. I’d think most HVS cracks would get E1 if the grade was based on effort alone! I lead Doctor's Saunter (HVS 5a) and seconded Incursion (E1 5b) the other day, the HVS was miles harder but both correctly graded..

 GridNorth 01 Jun 2019
In reply to Mark Bannan:

How can it be something to disagree with.  It just an opinion and a widely held opinion and is to a large extent based on personal style/protection preferences.  My E1 may be your HVS that does not make either of us wrong nor the respective grades incorrect. You are assuming that the system is objective and perfect.  It's not, it's based on a consensus of one form or another.

Al

Post edited at 12:22
1
 keith sanders 01 Jun 2019
In reply to Tom Valentine:

Cum on man get a grip climb and climb more. 

How the mighty have fallen.

keith s

 ericinbristol 01 Jun 2019
In reply to C Witter:

Learning how to redpoint. Went from 6b to 7c+ (and now working on 8a)

In reply to C Witter:

Climbing a lot, with a group of people who were climbing pretty hard for the time. Not being precious about onsighting until you get good. Falling off (a lot) onto trad gear, until you realise that apart from obvious exceptions it’s pretty well as safe as sport climbing if you can place gear competently. The opening of the Foundry. Bouldering, and realising that climbing is not necessarily the best training for climbing.

 Mark Stevenson 01 Jun 2019
In reply to Mark Bannan:

> I have heard this viewpoint before but I disagree - If a route is given HVS and is harder than E1, surely it is wrongly graded!

Extremely safe routes, especially short ones, are systemically under-graded and conversely, bold routes are often over-graded as an intrinsic part of the UK trad grading system as compared with a theoretically perfect assessment of the UK climbing populations' probability of onsighting them.

It's a fact. It conspires to help prevent people injuring themselves on the boldest routes and to some extent encourages people to attempt harder climbing on safe routes. However, it does mean that at most grades, the safest routes at the "upper end" of the grade are not strictly graded for the onsight but are, in reality, graded for a yo-yo or worked ascent for most climbers actually operating at that grade.

As such, there are indeed lots of E1s that are much easier to onsight, for the majority of climbers, than a good number of HVSs. The same thing happens to a greater or lesser extent at very grade boundary, not just HVS/E1. It doesn't mean that routes are wrongly graded, it's just how the idiosyncratic UK trad system works and has worked for nearly half a century.

If you don't get too bothered about getting certain routes second or third attempt, it's not a problem. However, many people fall into the trap of thinking that they can't start climbing grade N+1 until they are 100% solid at grade N. That's just a recipe for disappointment and stagnation so the general suggestion of trying some routes of the next grade up is completely reasonable, especially if you can pick routes that play to your strengths.

Post edited at 13:32
1
 JackM92 01 Jun 2019
In reply to C Witter:

Wasn’t in a particular deep rut but had been regularly falling off E2’s, then fairly quickly reached a point where I was warming up on E3’s and onsighting E4.

Bouldering both indoors and outdoors made all the difference, just doing a small amount made such a huge difference and although my bouldering grade didn’t increase much the improvement on trad was immediately noticeable.

 PaulJepson 01 Jun 2019
In reply to C Witter:

Climb with a girl you fancy. Nothing will get you trying hard things and masking your dread like trying to impress a lady!

 Tom Valentine 01 Jun 2019
In reply to keith sanders:

Thanks for the sentiment, old timer

 Michael Gordon 01 Jun 2019
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

> Not necessarily, many will struggle up a steep but perfectly protected HVS crack but the same many would happily dance up a poorly protected slabby E1 (head game aside). 

That may be true, but I certainly wouldn't suggest someone went straight from VS to one of those! Same with an E1 crack - there may be tons of gear but will they be able to hang on in order to place it? 

I think a good rule (maybe not for success but for self-preservation!) is wait until you can do something around the middle of the grade before going for the bold but easier end, e.g. E1 5b before E1 5a, E3 5c before E3 5b etc. 

 Fiona Reid 01 Jun 2019
In reply to C Witter:

Losing 10kg and going to Kalymnos.

The weight loss helped massively for indoors but Kalymnos made a massive difference to my sport grades - spending lots of time on rock and friendly bolting makes a massive difference. Less lard means I can hold on longer so have enough thinking time to work stuff out.

Indoors TR I went from 6b+ with a once in blue moon 6c  first go to regularly doing 6c/6c+ first go and quite a lot 7a climbs after practice.

Leading indoors that got me from 6b onsight to 6c+ and 7a (only two so far) after practice

Sport I jumped from 6a/6a+ to 6c

With trad I only jumped HVS to E1 but that's because I'm a big chicken. 

 mrphilipoldham 01 Jun 2019
In reply to Michael Gordon:

Therein lies the point.. either the ‘easier’ slab would have to be VS or the ‘harder’ crack would have to be E2. Neither of which would work as it’s not a reflection on the whole experience of the route, the latter would give a good ego boost but the former could certainly land a lot of people in Sheffield infirmary! 

OP C Witter 01 Jun 2019
In reply to ericinbristol:

So, just trying lots of hard routes, piecing together the moves, and gradually linking it all together - as a way of teaching yourself to climb harder? Something I've had recommended, but I really struggle to actually enjoy failing and flailing; and it's also quite a lot to ask of your belayer sometimes!

 Fiona Reid 01 Jun 2019
In reply to Fiona Reid:

I also decided just to have a go and stopped caring about the grade whether my mates could do it or not and whether I *should* be able to do something. That approach also helped as sometimes you surprise yourself.

 planetmarshall 01 Jun 2019
In reply to Mark Stevenson:

> Well, I've spent about 17 years struggling to get from E2 to E4, at least in terms of being really solid at the grade. 

Have you considered trying E3?

 planetmarshall 01 Jun 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

> Climb with a girl you fancy.

Or, in the interests of equality, a man.

In reply to C Witter:

Realising i cant be good at everything at once and doing less running, cycling and swimming. I always thought it would be good 'cross training' but actually I've seen much better gains from more specific training then resting. A 20km run on my 'climbing rest day' didn't make for optimal strength gains! Sounds obvious now.

OP C Witter 01 Jun 2019
In reply to planetmarshall:

The real question is, do you get optimal performance from climbing with a girl you fancy or from a guy you fancy? Or is it better to hedge your bets, and take along one of each?

 krikoman 01 Jun 2019
In reply to Tom Valentine:

> Sorry, not having climbed for ten years I didn't realise you'd all stopped using it.


Yes, it's been found to be carcinogenic, and is now banned around the world,  you best go for a check up.

 ericinbristol 01 Jun 2019
In reply to C Witter:

The best thing is to work a route with someone similarly motivated and learn from each other. You stop thinking of it as failing and see it as getting closer to success. You learn not to flail but to be smart analytically and practically. With good redpoint tactics I can often redpoint 7b in a session when I used to flail and fail on 6b

 Misha 02 Jun 2019
In reply to C Witter:

I reckon plenty of trad mileage (at least two days every fortnight on average, so 50+ days a year) combined with 2-3 indoors sessions a week will get you to E3 or thereabouts. That’s assuming you don’t have any obvious issues to tackle such as lack of confidence / strong fear of falling / poor strength to weight ratio. Climbing with motivated partners is also important. 

Post edited at 03:39
 Jon Stewart 02 Jun 2019
In reply to C Witter:

Quit your job. 

 jcw 02 Jun 2019
In reply to C Witter:

At the end of the day, taking and aversion to risk. When i started out in 1962 aged 28'there was essentially no safe climbing and my love was mountaineering, perhaps the riskiest form of climbing. Risk could be reduced by judgement and experience, but that came with narrow escapes and accidents. These were sobering, to say the least and I gave up the long snow and ice routes which I was good at with the old ace and dagger technique because essentially there was no real protection and one was better off soloing with ones partner. In trad climbing pushing the boat out was likewise  effective and the poster who said competiveness with ones peers was an important factor is quite correct. But accidents also brought sense, I should know.

As also already stated by posters:, improvment came from climbing with a partner better than me both at home and in the Alps (in those days most did both)  and that brought up my standard considerably. But the danger is if you don't close the gap one ends up increasingly seconding. That was fine for me in what I call my second youth when. I climbed with talented youngsters; and with one in particular in the Alps started not only doing  big routes that involved pushing out the boat out again and enjoying mastering the risk factor but also leading the odd route or two with long unprotected run outs at home. Doing hard things efficiently as a second by my standard was always a major pleasure of climbing. So finally I resorted to taking a guide in my old age for a fortnight to satiate my appetite, now increasingly turned to multi pitch rock climbing around the world: that :coupled to the young friends, now reaching my age when I first climbed with them in the 80s who loyally continue to take me out. Unfortunately, a recent eye sight disaster put an end to climbing in my mid eighties. 

In other words the thrill  of taking and mastering risk has always been intrinsic to climbing for me, but not excessively after my early experiences.  My failing has been lack of technique,  both with gear (largely because of seconding  when the gear revolution took place) and because I relied on brute strength and was poor at padding. Walls came a bit late for me and certainly would have helped in gaining strength,,though I was an addict of circuits at Bleau before mats, also,not without risk.  For me risk, doing routes  outdoors in the beauty of the hills and mountains is inherent to the whole notion of climbing. As someone else has said: Improvement comes ith mileage: to which I would add learning to suffer and enjoying it as the kilometers tick up.

In reply to C Witter:

After 40 years of climbing i recently had two days being coached (trad - in Lakes with Esther Foster). Wonderful experience and i learned loads. It's too soon to say whether it will result in some kind of breakthrough, but I'm certainly climbing much more efficiently - which is a pleasure in itself.

OP C Witter 02 Jun 2019
In reply to jcw:

Thanks for sharing that, JCW. I'll be very deeply pleased if I manage to still be climbing in my eighties! That's an ambition to aim at! And by then, who knows, I might even be 'not too bad' at this climbing lark.

Post edited at 14:42
In reply to C Witter:

For me, one of the big steps forward (after nearly 30 years' climbing) was the first good climbing walls, because it meant one could keep training right through the winter and start off, straight away on the first day out on real rock in the spring, at HVS, and the holds seemed mostly big and friendly after the climbing wall. That would have been about 1994 when I was living in Derby and the huge climbing wall opened in Birmingham - the nearest good wall, then, to Derby. The smaller Wirksworth wall wasn't bad, but it didn't give you the stamina.

 profitofdoom 02 Jun 2019
In reply to C Witter:

> Those of you who had a big breakthrough in your climbing - what made the difference? How did you make the sudden jump?

Personally I've had 2 major leaps in grade, both allied with sudden leaps in confidence, caused by suddenly realizing that a certain higher grade was within my abilities, then just going for it

OP C Witter 02 Jun 2019
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Quit your job. 

Oh, don't worry Jon - there's no need to quit these days, as a permanent contract is like hens' teeth! It's only a shame that bills come in and bellies need feeding, regardless...

In reply to C Witter:

I've just realised that one of the things that made the greatest difference to my climbing was the influence of some great climbers I was fortunate to climb with. I think particularly of John Syrett (my brother's brilliant climbing partner). We spent a lot of time bouldering in Llanberis pass in 1970 and even climbing with him for a few hours would raise your standard by about a full technical grade, at least. Years later, bouldering with Johnny Dawes had exactly the same magical effect. Climbing with Fliss Butler was also magically inspiring, she just climbed so beautifully, with such technical ease. David (BA) Jones, too, awesomely strong and fit, yet technically so neat (I have never ever seen anyone with quite such neat and precise footwork. To watch him climbing on small holds in big vibram boots was absolutely awesome.) Also, just watching some people climb influenced you, the way they floated so lightly on the rock, e.g. Martin Boysen, Simon Nadin, Leo Houlding.

 Dan Arkle 03 Jun 2019
In reply to C Witter:

This might even get some dislikes, but I'm going to say headpointing /toproping. 

It helped me get used to what harder climbing feels like. To get used to being properly run out above a couple of small wires. Knowing what to expect with a given grade then makes harder onsights less daunting, and so I was more likely to have a go. 

 Mark Bannan 03 Jun 2019
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

> Not necessarily, many will struggle up a steep but perfectly protected HVS crack but the same many would happily dance up a poorly protected slabby E1 (head game aside).

Isn't this a case of personal preference? Presumably someone with the reverse preference could think differently? (unless they acknowledge that different types of route

> I lead "Doctor's Saunter" and seconded "Incursion" the other day, the HVS was miles harder but both correctly graded..

Could this be because you led one and seconded the other?

 Mark Bannan 03 Jun 2019
In reply to Mark Stevenson:

> As such, there are indeed lots of E1s that are much easier to onsight, for the majority of climbers, than a good number of HVSs.

But I thought the system grades for an on-sight ascent, at least for all but the very highest grades (i.e. E6 or higher).

I agree with all the rest of your cogently worded points, though.

Post edited at 12:28
 planetmarshall 03 Jun 2019
In reply to Mark Bannan:

> I have heard this viewpoint before but I disagree - If a route is given HVS and is harder than E1, surely it is wrongly graded!

Is this not just the historical legacy of a general reluctance to upgrade hard climbs that predated the 'E(n)' system?

 Mark Bannan 03 Jun 2019
In reply to planetmarshall:

This is definitely a factor, but there can be a reluctance to upgrade climbs at any grade, if first ascents were made long ago.

 Mark Stevenson 03 Jun 2019
In reply to Mark Bannan:

> But I thought the system grades for an on-sight ascent, at least for all but the very highest grades (i.e. E6 or higher).

Yes - in theory.

In practice, people apply subjective opinions and judgements, which are heavily influenced by historical precedent.

Over the decades, a couple of factors have tended to skew that judgement. There was a general reluctance amongst some climbers (as alluded to by planetmarshall) to upgrade really safe bouldery routes. There is also a very understandable view that it's probably better not to tempt fate by downgrading genuinely dangerous lines that are borderline between two grades. Since grading of new routes is often based on comparison with existing ones, once you have classic routes established at particular grades, any biases in the grading will tend to be perpetuated.

The grading system generally works fine. It just doesn't always work as a theoretically perfect linear system.

For example, in the original Rockfax Peak Gritstone East guidebook the graded list is a very subjective one just compiled by Chris Craggs. In the subsequent edition (Eastern Grit) the graded list changed to using supposedly more objective crowd-sourced data from the UKC/Rockfax database. It was universally panned. Pretty much every keen gritstone climber much preferred the original highly subjective, but self-consistent list despite its very obvious departures from strictly onsight grading. There is no way that Nuke the Midges (E1 5b) (bottom E1 in the PGE graded list) is harder to onsight than Chequers Crack (HVS 5c) (the top HVS) but in reality their respective grades actually work fine in practice.

Post edited at 14:19
 Mark Bannan 03 Jun 2019
In reply to Mark Stevenson:

Very well explained! 

Are so called "graded lists" being used less often these days - obviously such lists would be very useful if all climbers frequenting a certain area were consulted, but this not be very feasible (probably never was).

1
 Michael Hood 03 Jun 2019
In reply to Mark Bannan:

Graded lists are good for heated discussion. I think the 83 Stanage/Millstone one was an early example with some interesting ordering

 Baron Weasel 03 Jun 2019
In reply to krikoman:

> Chalk!!  

Yeah man, pof is way better for pushing your grade!

 krikoman 03 Jun 2019
In reply to Baron Weasel:

> Yeah man, pof is way better for pushing your grade!


You're a disgrace to climbing

Now go and think about what you've written.

 Baron Weasel 04 Jun 2019
In reply to krikoman:

> Now go and think about what you've written.

I forgot to mention that I'm thinking of trying pof on my boots too. Could be worth a couple of grades on a slab!


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