UKH

Hello fellow climbers,

I’ve noticed that lots of people fail to place gear at the top to protect the anchors when sport climbing. Even when numerous climbers top rope the same route, the first leader just clips the chains and off they go, happily and without a second thought.

Today, with genuine kindness and tolerance, I gently suggested to two large groups of climbers who were top roping some popular 5b’s that they place a carabiner or opposing draws onto the bolts at the top to prevent wear. The leaders both seemed experienced, not new to outdoor sport climbing. They were obviously really annoyed and I felt like I’d been rude and ‘that person’ at the crag! I didn’t labour the point and walked away, they carried on as before. Hopefully this will prompt a little Googling and learning for the future- who knows.

So should I try to educate others as I did or should I just let it go? Personally I welcome suggestions and discussion with well intentioned strangers but it would seem that not everybody feels the same. 
 

Lisa

Definitely speak up when you see something wrong or not quite right. IMO

I know exactly how you feel.
I’ve pretty much given up saying anything here (Kalymnos). Seems pointless when even a couple of the instructors are regularly top roping groups on the chains. It even says in the guidebooks NOT to do it, but still so so many idiots take it for granted that the chains will be safe and/or replaced.  

Well done for saying something.

If they just carried on, might have been worth reminding them of how to donate to the local bolt fund. Not sure I'd be necky enough to do that myself though 

I think you did a reasonable thing. Unfortunately when you do something like that these days you have to do it with the assumption that you might get a negative reaction. A lot of people can't take constructive criticism even when you make it clear that's how it's meant. Rightly or wrongly, I've reduced how often I do this type of thing. It upsets me when I'm not treated with the same level of thoughtfulness and concern that I'm showing and the complete absence of self-awareness that most people show. They can't possibly need to examine their methods at all. They're clearly right and you're a busy body. It's sad but well done for trying.

I think it's always worth providing advice when you can.

You probably butted heads with human nature here and it way well be purely circumstantial. Without knowing more about the groups, I would guess it was one or two leaders, and the rest maybe being new to it (top roping being a clue).

I'm not defending their response, but suspect by being advised something, those leaders felt a bit embarrassed because there's a whole group of people looking up to them and relying on them for their safety.

By not accepting your recommendations, they have a sense that they kept some authority and relevance. I know it's unreasonable, but you know. Humans.

You shouldn't have to think about it, but tiny changes in language can result in very different reactions.

If you said: "you really should use your own gear to prevent wear" then the above unnecessary human failing may unfold.

But if you said: "the guys that manage this place are keen that you use your own gear to avoid wear" I suspect you would get a different reaction. The leaders can then continue on the basis that it's a "local thing" so don't feel embarrassed but still google it and know for future.

 Again, it's a shame such interactions require so much human psychology, but you know. Humans.

Either-way, I think it's better to say something rather than nothing (although I'm guilty of avoiding the aggro when it's not safety critical)

There's a very good chance that the leaders knew exactly what they were doing, and were doing it so they would not have to bother going up again to thread the anchor afterwards.

Well done for saying something but it seems we are fighting a loosing battle....... for some bizarre reason many people, including instructors, can't be arsed clipping 2 quickdraws to the bolts and using those. It's one of those little things (there are many), which makes me think human civilisation is ultimately doomed.

Crap instructors, the good ones can be bothered

"Experienced" can mean different things.  Many UK climbers are experienced on trad and only came late to bolted climbing, probably without any instruction. Also, most people's first experience on bolts is indoors, where top-roping through the fixed anchors is very much the thing.  Not everyone reads the preamble in guidebooks or the threads on UKC.  Ignorance is therefore understandable.

Most people become defensive when they believe they are being criticised, especially in front of friends or people they are teaching. I agree with those who say it is essential that advice is framed in such a way that it doesn't come across as criticism, but that's not easy.

Thanks for the replies and understanding.

Montyjohn - I almost word for word used your peacemaker option and deliberately out of earshot of the rest of the group. As jpicksley describes, the feeling of disappointment when your courtesy isn’t returned is very unpleasant. 

I think all in all it’s still worth pointing it out. 

That’s a really good point and I agree that it has to be framed carefully. I certainly would never want to be disrespectful of someone else’s experience. 

One guide I climbed with on Kalymnos set up topropes directly through the anchor rings with the argument that had had placed and/or would replace them himself anyway.

Plausible on the face of it, but it still sets a bad example for others watching who might not know that and think it's generally ok.

defo!

Talked to two different groups at the weekend who were doing it.

One excused it as "oh it's just the last person" and the other group said "it's ok I donate to the bolt fund" as they toproped through some glue ins.

Usually it seems like they atleast know it's wrong and feel guilty being called out. Hopefully if enough people keep calling it out people will want to avoid the awkward talks.

You definitely did the right thing. In my experience, most people are OK. The ones least likely to be OK seem to be fat, macho, middle-aged guys (just my experience though).

Sometimes, on the day, you just feel too weary... 

An allied problem is dangerous belaying and I feel this is something you can never ignore, no matter how weary you feel. For instance, the other day a lady let go of her belay device (it wasn't self-locking) three times in swift succession to scratch her bum, blow her nose and grab her phone for a photo. Her leader didn't look too solid (and the rock round here can snap). She seemed to be operating on the principle that it was OK to belay someone 'most of the time'. The feedback was a bit terse but, to her great credit, she took it well. We all make mistakes. But, in climbing, those mistakes can be deadly.

Be safe out there! 

Mick 

Sure! I'm just surprised that crap instructors exist in the numbers they seem to. I've seen 2 instructors do this..... first time it didn't occur to me than an instructor would do this, so I tried to have a friendly word with what I thought were 3 newbies!

Do you know which company they were working for? A letter to those in charge might work where a complaint to the workforce (who may well be freelancers) didn't.

... or, even better, a letter to the company from the BMC after "naming and shaming" at an Area meeting.

Something needs to be done about this, beyond posts about the issue on UKC forums, which have little to no effect, as far as I can see - bad practice seems as widespread as ever.

Yeah it’s a real shame. Sadly I’ve seen my fair share of it too

I run a lot of instructor training qualification courses, and it’s made clear on everyone one that directly top roping off the anchors is not acceptable.

Personally, I think this behaviour is well out of order and I would seriously consider pulling the rope down if they tried to persist after I had  explained why they should not. 

They weren’t instructors I don’t think. They put the ropes up and then moved on to climb together, leaving a group on each route they’d left ropes on.

I couldn’t agree more that something should be done. I think the Rockfax app could include it somehow, maybe to pop up on each new login. The guidebooks could put more than a paragraph in the front section that many don’t read.

I think you are right! there are lots of poor instructors showing people bad habits! I had a top rope thrown on my head yesterday, two guys came down and I said they had just launched a rope on my head and told them that's not the done thing. Then their instructor came round the corner. He had thrown it! unbelievable! 

The instructor, at least, should know it is the done thing to throw the rope, shout a warning and then look to see if the way is clear!

Ahh, in which case, not sure what else could be done.

I think the "out of earshot" is probably more important than my suggestion. They were lucky you we're able to explain it discretely.

Never-mind, you tried.

When a climber throws something of value off a cliff without thinking of the consequences I throw it in the bushes or sea.

Unfortunately there are plenty of instructors/businesses that pursue profit to the detriment of anything else, just like any other job.

And there are also plenty of instructors who think that just because they have some qualification that they know more than everyone else at the the crag - no matter who they are - and also that they have a divine right to said crag and expect anyone else to move on.