UKH

It seems the gov requires that unlimited exercise be limited to public spaces only which may be of relevance for crag access and possibly the ongoing Portland discussion. From the legislation published yesterday afternoon at

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/500/pdfs/uksi_20200500_en.pdf

New sub clause (ba) “ba) to visit a public open space for the purposes of open-air recreation to promote their physical or mental health or emotional wellbeing— (i) alone, (ii) with one or more members of their household, or (iii) with one member of another household;”; ”

Public open space defined as “5) For the purposes of paragraph (2)(ba), “public open space” includes

(a) land laid out as a public garden or used for the purpose of recreation by members of the public
(b) land which is “open country” as defined in section 59(2) of the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949(a), as read with section 16 of the Countryside Act 1968(b);
(c) land which is “access land” for the purposes of Part 1 of the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000(c) (see section 1(1) of that Act(d)). “

This clause:

(b) to take exercise— (i) alone, (ii) with one or more members of their household, or (iii) with one member of another household;”;

...is still there which does not have any such stipulation.  So if climbing is exercise...

It all could have been much clearer and with more notice. There is quite a lot of differing opinion on what is acceptable and this could lead to confrontation in Portland or other places. Some preparation time between announcement and implementation would have been very useful for people to think where they were going and for others to consider how to respond adequately and perhaps advertise their response. 

I still think the message to stay indoors as much as possible set against you can travel as far as you like for exercise is unhelpful and more specific guidance would be useful. 

I agree climbing should be allowed. There is some bouldering around the house and this has continued for the last 7 weeks. The rocks have been remarkably dry! Whether a busy day at Stanage is good for social isolating is questionable? Perhaps people will arrive either to turn away in frustration or just say sod it and climb anyway.

" “public open space” includes ...  land ...  used for the purpose of recreation by members of the public "

That seems pretty inclusive.

Yeah I saw that. Although I kinda just assumed that it’s because they can hardly invite people to spend time on private land since that’s at the owner’s discretion anyway. Either way i think some care needs to be taken anywhere where access is permissive right now. 

The other curious thing is that the "(iii) with one member of another household" has no mention of social distancing

The definition of public open space "includes" the categories listed, which suggests that it is not exhaustive or limiting, which it would be if it had said "means" rather than "includes".  In any event, wouldn't permissive land be covered by the second part of a) "...or used for the purpose of recreation by members of the public"?

Nevertheless, whist the regulations may permit recreation on permissive land we are still dependent on permission not being withdrawn, and many landowners will be anxious for themselves and their communities, so this is a sensitive issue.  This doesn't just affect climbing of course, and many other outdoor activities rely on permissive agreements, or at least tolerance by the landowners.  

Is social distancing mentioned elsewhere in a 'catch all' though?

Isn't the document a list of amendments as opposed to a brand new definitive one?

The police have confirmed that in England they can't enforce social distancing as it is only in the government guidance and not covered by the law: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-52106843

Though to be clear, there should be no need to have to actually enforce it, as with all this COVID19 legislation...

As I've said previously a global health crisis has never been a problem that can be solved by legislation and policing.

I agree. But it's not helpful to anyone to have guidance and law that is mismatched

Though to be fair a 2m social distancing  law would never be something that could be enforced from a practical point of view.

Aren't most laws not really enforced from a practical point of view.

People still drink drive and use the phone while driving.

You could have a law which said that everyone should be 2m apart, the number of police is always the issue... Weirdly 2m apart with cameras and facial recognition might work, privacy issues would be massively problematic. 

Maybe I wasn't clear with my phrasing. Realistically it would be almost impossible to prosecute anyone for not being 2 metres apart. Unlike drink driving or phone use which are enforced and prosecuted routinely.

It will be feasible to discuss their social distancing and encourage them to be further apart. It would be well nigh impossible to prove the offence beyond reasonable doubt. I suppose walking along holding hands might be provable, if caught on bodycam, but the engage, encourage, explain process should resolve that (even if the 2m rule was in legislation)

Good points, but from a legal perspective I do not believe "beyond reasonable doubt" means there has to be video footage of an act. Cross examined and reliable eye witnesses have always been accepted and powerful evidence and remain so in the CCTV era. 

Not sure this means much in practice. Strictly speaking, there is no right of access to a crag which is on private non-CROW land, so the government isn't going to mandate that.

I think it's time we stop this nonsense and stop looking for any reason not to climb. It's honestly bizarre on a climbing forum..

People need to come out of their COVID shells a bit. I know it's been two months, but we're allowed out now. Lets enjoy that while we can. Now more than ever, we should appreciate our recreational time. 

The other practical point is you won't know whether people are from the same household. Especially with so many younger people living in house and flat shares or with parents these days. You could ask but people might not tell the truth (since we don't have obligatory ID) and in any case you've probably got better things to be doing with your time even if you're focusing on SD enforcement  (like sorting out larger groups). I think the 2m rule is in Welsh legislation though.

Yes, the regs linked above are essentially a list of amendments to the earlier regs, so the two have to be read together. To see the latest 'combined' version, click on 'latest available (revised)' on the left hand side on this page: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350

Incidentally, I see they've amended the first sentence of Reg 6 to say that you need a reasonable excuse not only to 'leave' but also 'be outside of' your home, thus acknowledging that it was badly drafted originally (I had a boring discussion about this and other drafting points in one of the earlier threads here). I wonder if this 'loophole', had enabled anyone to successfully challenge a fine on the grounds that they had a reasonable excuse to leave their home even though they went on to do something else or even that they did whatever they were doing straight after leaving somewhere else such as a place of work (obviously that's total garbage but I could see someone making that case).

That amendment (about 'leave') was made a couple of weeks ago I think. There wasn't much (no?) fanfare

My god. The government And scientific advisors wants people to go out, so they can monitor how high infection rates rise (which they are likely to), so that they can then come up with a plan to reopen tourism (holiday parks, theme parks) and other parts of society etc. Get more people back to there jobs and earning incomes to support families. Without trying things society will never get back to normal without a vaccine, which could be however long. So people stop posting nonsense about how we all shouldn’t go out. If your worried about people going out you would be better off trying to stop people going to beaches etc. Far more risk. If you want to stay in until a vaccine is found, then fine. It is an unprecedented situation and without a level of experimentation (yes we are all test subjects like it or not) follow guidelines (whether you agree with them up to you) and lets move on. 

It was because the argument was made that if you left the house for a permitted reason (e.g. to go to Tesco) you could then, having done so, drive 200 miles to the Lake District and do some hillwalking.  The change was made so that was no longer viable - for the entirety of the period outside your home you have to be doing a permitted activity or travelling to/from it.

Of course you are now permitted to drive 200 miles to the Lake District and do some hillwalking if you want, anyway.

There's not much risk in going to beaches either.  I suspect we will find that this makes precious little difference to cases, *but* that there will be a spike around Friday from the lack of social distancing during street parties last Friday (incubation period is about a week).

Yeah. Good point. Tons of street parties across the country. 

Ah yes, you're right. Didn't look at the footnote. Amended on 22 April. Technical change (it's the kind of thing I'd be interested in if this were a piece of tax law - us tax advisers are pretty sad).

That's a good point actually. There's an element of sending out guinea pigs and seeing what happens. Some people seem to think the government is trying to avoid all risk of transmission but it is not. That's impossible anyway in our situation (places like NZ have been able to get there as they locked down so early). What the government is trying to do is open things up gradually while monitoring what happens and keeping R as far below 1 as possible. The comms could be a lot better and clearer of course. Stay alert!

Talking of beaches, we might not see people travelling there from too far away. My parents wanted to go to a beach on the north Norfolk coast at the weekend, about an hour's drive away, then realised that the toilets there are still closed. Good way to keep the crowds away! I'd be pretty wary of public loos right now anyway...

Interesting that out of the three days from the long weekend, car traffic was lowest on Friday. Could be due to people celebrating VE day locally, which could actually cause more issues than travelling, as you say. That's just speculation though.

Yep. It can’t just stand still and keep everything locked down. We are all test subjects. People who just keep shouting ‘stay away from our town’ need to open their eyes and stick their heads out of their trenches. Nobody has an ideal solution, but we need to try things. We could all end up back in lockdown in 3 weeks. Who knows. Nobody knows.