Undiscovered crags.

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 Slackboot 23 Jan 2020

When we first started going to Kyloe in the Wood in the 1970's I remember thinking that a crag like that could stay undiscovered for a long time.

  In this day and age do you think there are any crags hidden away yet to be discovered? (Just thinking about places south of the border for this one.)

 PaulJepson 23 Jan 2020
In reply to Slackboot:

Depends on how active climbers are in the area. I'd expect anything in England big enough to get picked up on an OS map will have been at least investigated by now.

 Andy Moles 23 Jan 2020
In reply to Slackboot:

I reckon there are scraps, probably some decent short routes and some good bouldering (look at the volume developed in the woods around Bovey and Lustleigh in the past decade), but probably nothing as good as Kyloe.

North of the border there's still plenty, as the new routes section of the SMC Journal annually demonstrates. Though even there, I wonder just how many crags as good as Creag Rodha Mor or Ellen's Geo can remain wholly unclimbed. 

Post edited at 15:57
 Baron Weasel 23 Jan 2020
In reply to Slackboot:

I believe there's going to be a new crag in the Duddon Valley guide when it comes out with over 40 new routes. Mostly HVS to E2 with an E4, E5 and an E7. 

In reply to Slackboot:

In recent years there was a spate of new crags being discovered in the Wye Valley and South Wales  I got all excited about having new rock to climb but if I'm honest, with one or two exceptions, they are not very good. Having climbed extensively for 55 years in the UK, Europe, Africa and the North American continent perhaps it's just that my expectations are too high.  Loose damp, dank  quarries simply do not do it for me

Al

4
 Simon Caldwell 23 Jan 2020
In reply to Slackboot:

Smugglers Terrace was only discovered in the last 7 or 8 years despite being hidden in plain sight 

 Lankyman 23 Jan 2020
In reply to Slackboot:

>   In this day and age do you think there are any crags hidden away yet to be discovered?

Yes, definitely! When I lived in Cumbria in the 80s I got hold of a copy of the first North of England guide (Wilson and Kenyon) and started to explore the Eden Valley and other areas nearby. My 'home' ground had been the Lancs quarries where pickings were very slim for anyone of an exploratory bent (at least operating at my modest levels). What amazed me the most was how little had been done and how much was left to be done. I suppose it was inevitable given the proximity of the Lakes to Carlisle and Penrith and the view that local outcrops were mainly there for evening 'training'. I hardly ever saw anyone on the sandstone or limestone crags and soon started to find 'undiscovered' crags here, there and (not quite) everywhere. Sometimes they were shown on an OS map and I'd go out hopefully and find something useful. Other times I'd spot something whilst driving - had a few near-misses rubber-necking an outcrop whilst bombing along the A66! At some places, it was clear someone had been there before - Redmire (Thornybank Quarry) was one such place where old stakes showed that someone had done something a long time previously but not recorded anything. At other places we were almost certainly the first to do something - Helbeck Wood is possibly an example of this. It's a long way to walk for something you can get better examples of much more roadside in nature. Still, the pull of the unknown and the charm of isolation plus the odd stray shell from the Warcop ranges makes life interesting .... Sometimes, I'd remember something I'd seen many years earlier and go for another look to see if it actually was a useless pile of tot. Often it was, but sometimes the second look would reveal something worth a bit of time being spent there. Tow Scar was an example of this. I'd been there years earlier after a caving trip down Ireby Fell or Marble Steps and dismissed it as too small and broken. Then in 2003 we went back and re-evaluated it and got a handful of pleasant, short routes. I was never a boulderer and would be amazed at how tiny little things were now being written up and becoming worthwhile in their own right. There was a photo in one of the mags of a boulder on Farleton Fell that got me going over for a look-see (Jon Gaskins was sprawled out on it!). When I got there I was gob-smacked to find that I was taller than the boulder and the lens on the camera must have been a wide-angled job to make it look enormous. Since I stopped climbing about 8 years ago I've come across quite a few 'undiscovered' crags of various shapes and sizes. I still do a lot of walking and old habits die hard. I've sometimes wondered about mentioning them on this forum but then wondered if I might one day drag myself out of retirement and get back on them. One such is above Patterdale and is in view of the road (with the aid of a telescope maybe!) and probably about 40 - 50 foot high with some easier and some desperate looking stuff. I've come across some serious looking high-ball stuff in the Coniston fells which I'm fairly sure is 'undiscovered'. Also sandstone outcrops that would be similar to Queens Crag and quarries that could be bolted like Coudy Rocks in Appleby. Probably, the discovery I'm most pleased with though is Dow Crag Once you've found something like this what else is there to do?

 Tom Last 23 Jan 2020
In reply to Slackboot:

Acres of sea cliffs, but not exactly ‘crags’ I suppose. 

OP Slackboot 23 Jan 2020
In reply to Lankyman:

Ireby Fell Cavern. I havn't heard that mentioned for ages. It must be 50 years since I did that trip. Good post. Thankyou. And to others too.

  There's a couple of 'hidden' crags  in Northumberland which have fallen out of favour and aren't included on the Rockfax database. Part of me doesn' t want to broadcast their whereabouts. Not because I want to keep the climbing to myself as I probably wont go there again but mainly to give wildlife a human free environment if possible. 

 Tom Valentine 23 Jan 2020
In reply to Slackboot:

There's plenty of crags where nature is reclaiming old ground, some of them very impressive, like my old stomping ground Dovestones Main Quarry.

I once saw a brilliant photo of John Syrett on a route at Guisecliff which really whetted my appetite but could never persuade anyone else to accompany me. On reflection, after about ten years of reading UKC threads and comments, I'm not sure that I've ever seen the crag mentioned once.

Edit: North Wall Eliminate, Looks like its had 3 UKC ascents in the last three years. Sounds like a brilliant route.

Post edited at 18:54
 chrisprescott 23 Jan 2020
In reply to Slackboot:

Having just released a film called Undiscovered I can definitely attest to there being almost endless potential for new crags and routes in Scotland. The film might have Dave MacLeod climbing E8s and above but I know of people who've done over 1000 new routes in Scotland at E2 and below...

 olddirtydoggy 23 Jan 2020
In reply to Slackboot:

A couple of local climbers here in Sheffield are working on a guide book with all the small outcrops of rock scattered around the Dark Peak. I'm guessing many will already be on the UKC maps with logs but it will be interesting to see what they put out.

 ChrisBrooke 23 Jan 2020
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Are you allowed to tell us more? For instance, who?

 olddirtydoggy 23 Jan 2020
In reply to ChrisBrooke:

It was relayed to me last year. A friend of mine works with one of the blokes writing on it. I met him briefly at the climbing works last winter but didn't know at the time he was doing it. I'll chase this up again and report back.

 Timmd 24 Jan 2020
In reply to chrisprescott:

> Having just released a film called Undiscovered I can definitely attest to there being almost endless potential for new crags and routes in Scotland. The film might have Dave MacLeod climbing E8s and above but I know of people who've done over 1000 new routes in Scotland at E2 and below...

I've always thought there must be loads left still to do up in Scotland.

 alan moore 24 Jan 2020
In reply to Slackboot:

I've just read"The Hidden Edge of Exmoor" and although there are many mentions of routes having been done, there are clearly miles of rock there and some huge crags.

Getting to the bottom of them via tides and traverses sounds like a lifetimes endeavour and getting off the top might be an end of lifetime endeavour, but there's obviously a lot to go at.

1
 Mick Ward 24 Jan 2020
In reply to Tom Valentine:

> There's plenty of crags where nature is reclaiming old ground, some of them very impressive, like my old stomping ground Dovestones Main Quarry.

I find this neglect such a sad trend. Formerly people had exploratory urges to go to all sorts of places. OK, often they'd be a tad underwhelming when you finally got there but you'd still have a fun day out and often meet some real local characters. I remember, circa 1971, encountering some guys at Heptonstall, armed with big wooden wedges (for Forked Lightening Crack?), who proudly informed us that they'd never climbed anywhere else. It was an eerie, misty day. They emerged from the mist and disappeared back into it!

> I once saw a brilliant photo of John Syrett on a route at Guisecliff which really whetted my appetite but could never persuade anyone else to accompany me. On reflection, after about ten years of reading UKC threads and comments, I'm not sure that I've ever seen the crag mentioned once.

> Edit: North Wall Eliminate, Looks like its had 3 UKC ascents in the last three years. Sounds like a brilliant route.

North Wall Eliminate is (was?) a brilliant route. And the nearby Comet Wall was superb. And there were loads of other good stuff. But I did these routes well over 40 years ago and it seems that Guisecliff has fallen into severe disrepair. Of all Yorkshire crags, it's maybe the hardest to keep in good nick. But, at its best, it's got an abundance of character.

Mick

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 thepodge 24 Jan 2020
In reply to Slackboot:

I saw what could be an absolute wealth of bouldering the other day which at first glance looks untouched but it's a cutting for a dual carriageway so not exactly the most appealing location. 

 SenzuBean 24 Jan 2020
In reply to Slackboot:

I’ve got hundreds of granite mountain crag routes needing to be climbed. Very far South though...

 webbo 24 Jan 2020
In reply to Mick Ward:

I did North Wall Eliminate in the 70’s and I wrote in my guidebook at the time, it was great if you liked climbing up cracks full of vegetation. Apparently I thought it was crap.

 mrphilipoldham 24 Jan 2020
In reply to Tom Valentine:

Ever since I got the newer Yorkshire guides I’ve been eagerly anticipating my first Guisecliff visit. The photos make it look like a great place. Partner is even willing too.. just need some conditions!

 drconline 24 Jan 2020
In reply to Timmd:

> I've always thought there must be loads left still to do up in Scotland.

Indeed but Scotland is a big place (1/3rd or the UK landmass?) so a lot of them are a long drive away from where most of us 'locals' live! It's the actual 'locals' like Dave M who have better access opportunities. (Though even Dave is subject to the weather and the midges)

We're quite new to outdoor climbing and are gradually realising that there's usually a reason why superficially promising crags are either undeveloped or been left to go back to nature.

We are also realising that just because a crag is in a guidebook or on UKC, is not a guarantee of good times. If it doesn't have a lot of routes, has no topo drawing or picture, and no recent comments, then we need to dial back our expectations a bit! 

Of course that doesn't quell the romantic dream of finding something special just down the road with amazing potential, great potential, stunning views, easy parking, nearby coffee-shop, etc. etc.

 Mick Ward 24 Jan 2020
In reply to webbo:

Gosh, that's interesting. I don't remember any significant vegetation on it and I hate climbing cracks filled with crap (got enough of that in the Mournes!)  Maybe it had received a burst of traffic? No, that seems unlikely. A bit of a mystery.

Classic dark, sombre crag. Like Eagle crag in Borrowdale and Eagle mountain in the Mournes. Understandably not everyone's cup of tea.

Mick

 Mick Ward 24 Jan 2020
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Oops, have just seen your post!  I'd go after a prolonged hot, dry spell and chose your routes wisely. It would be great if people would clean up at least the best routes, though I accept many have neither the time nor energy to spend hours on an ab rope.

Hope you have a good visit. Let us know how you get on.

Mick

 mrphilipoldham 24 Jan 2020
In reply to Mick Ward:

Bring on ‘summer’!

 The Pylon King 24 Jan 2020
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

Yes, your expectations are too high! For people without the resources or desire to fly round the world for adventure, local adventures are useful and perfectly adequate.

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Removed User 24 Jan 2020
In reply to drconline:

> Indeed but Scotland is a big place (1/3rd or the UK landmass?) so a lot of them are a long drive away from where most of us 'locals' live! It's the actual 'locals' like Dave M who have better access opportunities. (Though even Dave is subject to the weather and the midges)

Not as many as you may think. I can think of two big crags visible from the road with no routes on them. Other ones have seen little traffic for good reasons, indifferent rock, vegetated, wet, no gear, just too hard, a long walk in. Most small crags, probably all in the central belt, have been checked out and in the Highlands individuals have been checking out new crags every weekend year in, year out.  The decent ones that haven't been climbed on are likely to be found high up on the wrong side of a Munro. 

It's worth your while checking out the SMC journals if you're into esoterica and looking for clues about where to look but you won't find an undiscovered Rannoch wall or probably not even another Craig y Barns.

 Graeme Hammond 24 Jan 2020
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Have been steadily working through the old Yorkshire grit guides 3*list to Yorkshire gritstone heaven, it has taken me off the beaten track on a couple of occasions, we had a memorial day up at Ash Head before driving home via Hawcliffe another neglected venue. However Guisecliff has yet to be visited, again partner is willing just need to get the weather aligned. Would be good to team up and clean a route each then climb them all. Will be in touch. Guisecliff 2020 revival!

 Rick Graham 24 Jan 2020
In reply to Baron Weasel:

> I believe there's going to be a new crag in the Duddon Valley guide when it comes out with over 40 new routes. Mostly HVS to E2 with an E4, E5 and an E7. 

Counted 84 new routes on a draft Crag Band area printout.

South facing , sheltered, good clean rock.

Just out of view from the car and the walk to other crags, which probably explains why us lazy locals have missed it for so long.

 SteveSBlake 24 Jan 2020
In reply to Slackboot:

There’s loads, you just have to have an interest in finding them.......

In reply to The Pylon King:

I agree but I am where I am and I simply do not enjoy climbing on many of these crags.  That's not of course to say they don't satisfy anyone else's needs so please don't take my comments of either the crags or the climbers developing them as criticism of either.  I know you have played a major role and good for you, keep up the good work. Perhaps I should  have followed my old mans advice. "If you can't find anything good to say about something don't say anything at all".  To anyone else reading I suggest you try them for your selves there are a few gems hidden in there.  Mark is correct, my expectations are too high but at 71 and with my experience and old fashioned traditional climbing tastes I think it's perfectly understandable.

Al

 Simon Caldwell 24 Jan 2020
In reply to Mick Ward and mrphilipoldham:

I've only ever done 1 1/2 routes there, (I was on my own so soloing and backed off the second). But on the basis of that visit I'll be saving a return visit for the autumn. Spring has a lot of nesting birds these days, which is good but affects many of the routes. Summer the vegetation is lush and midges correspondingly large. But after a dry spell in the autumn it should be at its best...

 Lankyman 24 Jan 2020
In reply to Removed User:

>  The decent ones that haven't been climbed on are likely to be found high up on the wrong side of a Munro. 

Here you go, Eric

https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3072549 and

https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2390616

We came across this when heading up the 'wrong' side of Ben na Lap a few years ago. If it was in the Lakes I'd probably go back for another look. Can't find any mention of it in UKC and don'i have any relevant guidebooks so don't know if it's 'undiscovered' or plastered in routes. As I won't be going back that way ever again any keen Scotch people can have it on me.

 mrphilipoldham 24 Jan 2020
In reply to Graeme Hammond:

It's a date! The Creation looks like fun.

Post edited at 17:10
 Baron Weasel 24 Jan 2020
In reply to Rick Graham:

> Counted 84 new routes on a draft Crag Band area printout.

I was right, there's over 40 routes! 

Don't know all that much about it tbh, I just know that my mate was really chuffed at putting up an E7 and having the grade and quality confirmed. 

Post edited at 17:56
Deadeye 24 Jan 2020
In reply to Lankyman:

Probably, the discovery I'm most pleased with though is Dow Crag Once you've found something like this what else is there to do?

<applause>

Deadeye 24 Jan 2020
In reply to Tom Last:

> Acres of sea cliffs, but not exactly ‘crags’ I suppose. 


Actually there *are* many patches of decent rock in the SW.  Pat and Graham didn't get them all.  In fact, they were more focused on harder things, so many mid-grade playgrounds still await.

Invariably the issue is access. Tidal and often not inspectable in any way from above.

Get some stakes, a full set of OS 1:25,000, and a sense of adventure...

 Chris Ebbutt 24 Jan 2020
In reply to Slackboot:

Hi

Not so much undiscovered but lost to Ivy was

Daddyhole Upper Cliff

Crag was developed in a couple of periods in the late sixties/ late eighties but was then totally neglected and lost under a canopy of Ivy. Over the last few years local climbers have been clearing Ivy and loose rock and probably critically for its long term popularity created a safe easy access path to the base, 3 minutes from the free car park at the top of the crag. Getting into the crag previously either involved abseiling and an epic fight with hostile vegetation ( my first attempt in winter took me 3 hrs car to car, no climbing) and probably explains why it was ignored for so long.

While no Berry Head, the crag gets plenty of sun, very little seepage, quick safe easy access top and bottom, free parking, good gear placements, variety of routes VD upto E5, easy top roping and with good views over Torbay.

So lost crags are out there but probably need a bit of persistence and effort to bring into the climbing mainstream.

Chris

Le Sapeur 24 Jan 2020
In reply to Lankyman:

> >  As I won't be going back that way ever again any keen Scotch people can have it on me.

I doubt that would excite anything with fewer than 4 legs and says baaaaa.

Is your Scotch reference to whisky or are you speaking from the 1800's?

 Michael Gordon 24 Jan 2020
In reply to Le Sapeur:

> I doubt that would excite anything with fewer than 4 legs and says baaaaa.> 

Dunno, I suspect someone is sharpening their axes in anticipation of an undiscovered winter crag with a bugger of a approach

 Dave Warburton 24 Jan 2020
In reply to Graeme Hammond:

Guisecliffe is climbable more than folk realise. These recent years we've been getting dry spells late winter into spring - perfect time before foliage beings to grow. Summer will be humid and grim i'd imagine.

 Tom Last 24 Jan 2020
In reply to Deadeye:

Erm, that’s what I was saying! Even me here as Mr Nobody has found entire new crags and sea cliffs. Between Tintagel and Bude in particular is massively undeveloped, so too The Lizard, even bits of Penwith. 

 

Removed User 24 Jan 2020
In reply to Lankyman:

> >  The decent ones that haven't been climbed on are likely to be found high up on the wrong side of a Munro. 

> Here you go, Eric

> We came across this when heading up the 'wrong' side of Ben na Lap a few years ago. If it was in the Lakes I'd probably go back for another look. Can't find any mention of it in UKC and don'i have any relevant guidebooks so don't know if it's 'undiscovered' or plastered in routes. As I won't be going back that way ever again any keen Scotch people can have it on me.

Yep. Been climbed on.

 Michael Gordon 25 Jan 2020
In reply to Removed User:

What's the name of the crag then? I didn't realise there was anything on Beinn na Lap.

 rhudson 25 Jan 2020
In reply to Tom Last:

Shhhhh...

 Donotello 25 Jan 2020
In reply to Slackboot:

Well quarries will eventually shut down. I live in Bristol and there are a few quarries such as Fairy Cave with a wealth of climbing, Portishead quarry too. In the Mendips south of Bristol there are about 10-15 active quarries, I have ‘accidentally’ walked into a few on bank holidays when they’re ‘closed’ and some of them have what look like 100’s of potential slab routes but it’s going to be a long time before anyone can walk in with a rack and partake in ‘leisure’ activities in these places. I’m wondering if Brexit will have any affect as many of the companies running them are foreign.   

 leland stamper 26 Jan 2020
In reply to alan moore:

sssshhhhhhh

In reply to Slackboot: South Devon, South Sands Salcombe to Bolt Tail area. In early ‘70’s made traverse including one bivi. Varied from walk to climb to swim, exciting area with parts suitable for ascents, I would now say adventurous.


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