UKH

I have long acknowledged that I have a fear of heights and thought that I accepted it without any problem. However, it is something I am actually deeply unhappy about and find limiting. Any advice on how to control or overcome it would gratefully received. I have looked at forums and can see that some people have talked about getting giddy even standing on a chair. My situation though is very specific to climbing and sense of jeopardy. I have otherwise always regarded myself as a very adventurous and outdoorsy person.

• I can stand atop high buildings and cable cars without it occurring to me there is an issue, so it is not height itself that is the issue, but rather the circumstances in which it is experienced.
• I can climb a wall or rock face comfortably to about 10m without any concerns.
• Once I get above about 10m I become increasingly aware of a disorientation and dizziness, with an accompanying and growing terror. I have found on a climbing wall or an easy rock face to a maximum of 15-20m the fear is there but I can often cope with it by refusing to look down (even when then abseiling down) and focusing only on my hand and foot holds.
• The idea of a 2-pitch (or more) climb where I have no option of abseiling to immediate safety feels like it is completely out of reach.
• In order to try and deal with my fear and because of a love of mountain walking, I attempted a via-ferrata hike/scramble up a mountain in the Alps with an experienced friend of mine. Traumatically, I found that soon after clipping onto the cables on a narrow, flat path that traversed a cliff (scramble steepness rather than sheer, with a view 600m to the valley floor), dizziness and terror struck to a degree that I had never experienced (so I turned back rather than risk my partner or myself) and this is perhaps what has led to me writing in this forum knowing that I don't dare to simply go out and give it another go.

I want to get to grips with this and am wondering whether simply joining a climbing club and starting small is the answer? Or Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, like smokers might get, to change my perception of the situation? 

Thanks for any advice given and apologies for such a wordy question.

In reply to PeterSJ:

You should start by understanding that vertigo and fear-of-heights/falling are not the same. Vertigo is a specific medical condition usually associated with inner ear infections. Fear of falling is a normal psychological thing we are all born with but learn to deal with. Root causes and interventions to the two are quite different. Your case sounds like the latter.

I can't offer any specific solutions - you should talk to a professional - but in my limited experience of this you should probably be prepared to accept that it's not something you can 'cure', more something you live with by knowing your limitations and accepting them. It's not a failing, it's just who you are and not particularly exceptional. Also consider that a 'partial cure' (e.g., you're OK most days but occassionally it comes back) may be worse than none, since it could put you and your partner in a more dangerous position.

Go talk to a professional, but don't expect miracles.

In reply to PeterSJ:

I don't have any personal experience but hypnotherapy immediately sprang to mind.

Maybe someone on here has got relevant experience of this.

Edit: also, each time you have this dizzy/terror experience, you are effectively further conditioning yourself that it's the "correct" way to react when you're in that situation. So as wbo2 says, small steps, build up gradually. You're not trying to find your limits, you're trying to gradually expand your ok "envelope" without having any negative experiences.

In reply to PeterSJ:  I think many of this have experienced this , or a variation of it, at some time.  I'm not particularly fond of climbing up things without being especially confident of how a descent described as difficult might be.  But while i wouldn't go so far as familiarity breeds contempt, it does mean experience that while something might be challenging, it might not prove terrifying/fatal.

You are good on high buildings

You are good to 10metres.

You go climbing? Indoors, outdoors? Do you ever fall off?

You don't even think you could second a route with several pitches  of very easy climbing?

I don't think you have a lot to lose from the climbing club and starting small approach, and overcome the challenge in steps, which is a very normal approach to building confidence

In reply to PeterSJ:

I seem to have the opposite, I'm fine when I'm climbing, irrespective of height or how sketchy the route is to a point, but feel very uneasy at the top of buildings or open staircases, looking over bridges etc

In reply to PeterSJ:

EFT works very well with this. I'm too knackered (covid...) to do the research for you, but have a dig. 

In reply to PeterSJ:

Interesting as I used to find the same thing which is why I started climbing in the first place. I felt it was ridiculous to be 40 years old and unable to get more than 4m off the ground (I froze on a children’s go ape type thing with my son and had to be rescued only making it round in terror with help 😂) I’ve got no problem now except very briefly when I first make that transfer into the vertical world. 

There are three things I was advised to consider. The abnormality of the situation, the huge amount of extra processing your brain has to do, and feeling physically safe.

Even if you’ve been climbing for years it would be worth working on these specifically  

I started by getting really really used to sitting in a harness at a borderline comfortable height, deliberately and safely, gradually increasing the height at a climbing wall.

Then get outdoors and again just hang there, eat a picnic, 20, 30, eventually 100+m up. Take photos. Stay there for a long time. Practice ascending and descending ropes - anything where you’re safely suspended and all you need to deal with is the height.  Do normal stuff, do look down and get the brain accustomed to the additional visual information it has to deal with - how often does your brain have to deal with stuff it can see below your toes!

It would also be worth getting some breathing training. The dizziness can be triggered by oxygen levels being all over the place because you’re (quite reasonably!) starting to panic. Panic will lessen as the other to strategies start to take effect but it’s still useful to have techniques to manage it.

Once all that’s working go back and do it all again with planned and safe falls of increasing height (possibly skipping the eating lunch 😂)

Something like via ferata is about as bad as it gets because you’ve got no reassuring pressure from a harness so get very used to the situation when you are totally safe before moving back into situations where that’s not there.

This is just from my own experience but worth a try. I’m now a qualified Mountain Leader with IRATA level 1 and work regularly at height - often working with people who are very unused to it keeping them safe and happy  

In reply to PeterSJ:

I think I have a reasonable fear of heights, and I often get a bit scared on sea cliffs and mountain routes (not so much from the height of the climb, but more from the height you are starting at. I think it's the general exposure of seeing the hillside and screes fall away to the valley below - for example I don't find places like Shepherds scary but Gimmer I do). 

The way I think I kind of handle it is by recalibrating the 'ground' to be the belay. That way I'm never usually more than say 20 or 30m off the 'ground', even when I'm high up on a multi-pitch. I find choice of partner to be the really important factor is being able to do this. You need someone who is your 'confidence marker': Someone who makes you feel confident and safe.

Other than that, my suggestion would be to mainly push yourself physically on shorter routes where the height isn't an issue, and climb below your limit on longer ones. Lots and lots of this will hopefully help you overcome your fear, to some extent. 

In reply to PeterSJ:

Exposure is key, keep looking down. When you are at the top of a route and about to be lowered off, pause, look down and accept the feelings.

In reply to PeterSJ:

Sounds to me like you may be getting anxiety in the mix once you get to 10 metres and it's possible that this is the cause of the dizziness etc.

You could try CBT but it's not always helpful....

I think most people have their own Achilles heel.....I've always been ok on a rope but I much prefer enclosed or gulley climbs in winter for example.....when confident as an E2 climber I have freaked and become really anxious on severed on Ranoch wall because of the exposure...

I would aim to get on a rope as much as you can, get to the height where it normally becomes problematic and see it through if possible ...

Failing that I would really spend a bit of time scrutinising your thoughts and gut feel, images etc you have when getting to that height....see how you get on......

In reply to PeterSJ:

I experience the same but funnily enough I’m a bit better on cliffs than on planes or buildings.

As someone who has experienced anxiety separately at times to a fear of heights I’m familiar with the spinning dizziness feeling when not at height which helps.  It’s part of our bodies panic response which is encouraging you to leave the situation because your subconscious mind perceived there to be a significant threat.

expose yourself to this feeling subtly and in a safe way as suggested in this thread.  Breath deeply, don’t fight the fear but try to feel it and accept it - over time doing this can help you adjust to it or at least allows you to manage that feeling of fear in a way that enables you to keep calm (ish!) and continue.

CBT can be helpful but rather than ‘curing’ your fear it can give you helpful strategies to train your response to the fear to make it more manageable. 

In reply to PeterSJ:

In reply to PeterSJ:

Fear of falling is a very real and natural reaction when you are on a crag, and I suspect that pretty well every climber has experienced it at some time or another. The more climbing you do and the more regularly you do it, the more this fear recedes. For a beginner the fear is there right from the start until your brain starts to rationalise the actual risk as against the perceived risk. 

For example when seconding you quite quickly begin to realise that falling off is no big deal and you don't die if you do, although there are varying degrees of danger. If the rope runs up directly above you and your leader is alert you don't go anywhere, but just hang there on the rope. If the rope runs off at an angle above you then there is the risk of a pendulum which could be unpleasant resulting in your slamming against the rock to the side of you - that is frightening. The distance of the pendulum will depend on the experience and skill of the leader in placing runners, not only to protect themselves but you a well. This is particularly important on a traverse. Where the route is steep or even overhanging then the consequences of falling off can be much more serious because you have to get back onto the rock again, and the knowledge of this can be frightening, the more so the more inexperienced you are.

When you are leading the risk is much increased and it takes time and experience to adjust to this. Other factors come into play like the fact that a fall on an overhanging climb is not necessarily dangerous (although it can still be frightening if you are not used to it), whereas a fall on sloping rock such as a slab can potentially be very serious it results in you hitting the rock on the way down until arrested by the rope, but your brain makes you feel "comfortable" on it because it's not sheer or overhanging, so its giving you a false message of comfort.

Then there is the natural reluctance, particularly at first, not to trust the equipment eg that amazingly thin rope, those cams which look spindly and "Heath Robinson", and those nuts which might pop out. I find abseiling particularly scary even having spent decades doing it, particularly those initial steps down over the edge when leaning out and walking backwards. It feels really unnatural, because you are going backwards and I suspect hat I'm not alone in looking at that thin rope running back to the anchor and wondering if the anchor is sound or if the rope is wearing on an edge? Of course it's ok because you have already checked it umpteen times, but your brain is playing cruel tricks on you. Then once you are over the edge and on your way down all is good and you are enjoying it.

So, in my case at least, the more years you have climbed and more frequently you do it the less The Fear is, but then there is that terrible risk of complacency which is often what bites experience climbers.

Edward Whymper's famous quote is as true as it was 200 odd years ago, but bearing that in mind try and "Climb as you will.....etc " don't let fear spoil what is a great sport.

Good luck.

In reply to PeterSJ:

The best advice I ever got for overcoming (or making progress to overcoming) my own fears whilst climbing was to read "climbing psychology" by Kevin Roet the gist of the book is to overcome fear by actively making small positive exposure to the fear and avoid negative experiences that reinforce the fear. Its aimed at fear of falling but could easily be applied to fear of heights/exposure

I wont try to explain the teqniques etc in a forum post as that would not do it justice. But it showed me a great framework to improve my head game in climbing and its made a real difference even at my modest grades. 

In reply to Annabel Tall

  > I started by getting really really used to sitting in a harness at a borderline comfortable height, deliberately and safely, gradually increasing the height at a climbing wall.

I think this is good advice. Saturate yourself with gradually increasing exposure on a very regular basis. Do you have somewhere very local where you can rig a bomber belay over a significant drop? Just sit there in your harness for a while, try to keep your breathing deep and steady, and be aware of feelings and sensations without judgement.

In reply to PeterSJ:

Although what you are experiencing is often called vertigo, it's most likely a relatively mild form of acrophobia, sometimes called visual height intolerance. There are some interesting online articles about this: some research suggests it is not a true phobia (like fear of snakes or spiders), but is actually caused by faulty perception of heights and distances, though it can be aggravated by anxiety. It is also very common, affecting one third of adults at some point in their life. Unfortunately there is no reliable cure, though it may improve with repeated exposure (no pun intended!).

Some links that might be useful/interesting:
https://www.alpinetrek.co.uk/blog/how-to-get-confidence-in-the-mountains/
http://watchingtheworldwakeup.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/all-about-heights.html
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16658-fear-of-heights-linked-to-vert...

In reply to PeterSJ:

Hi folks. I just want to say a huge thank you to all those that took the time to reply and share their experiences and sometimes sage-like advice. It has given me food for thought and I am looking forward to throwing myself into small but increasingly challenging steps. And starting to look down, of course!

In reply to PeterSJ:

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