UKH

Troy is my local quarry, I have done a lot of climbing there and walk my dog there. Its owned by United Utilities and the parking is all locked off.
Just walking there and saw 4 climbers, lead climbing. 
I asked them why they were climbing as BMC said you shouldn't, and if we might lose access if UU find out.
One comes down and unties, comes right up to me telling me a load of bollocks about how he read on the BMC its okay and that police advice and a right old load of tosh. Lots of intimidation and I will see you around and swearing. My wife was with me.

What would you have done?

https://doitonline.lancashire.police.uk/covid19/Create

What you did. Often polite manners will have a better effect after the person has had time to reflect.

Well done. I would have been a wuss with 4 obvious covidiots although I occasionally take photos/note numberplates if something dodgy looks to be going on somewhere.

The Report Online thing looks quite useful

nothing more than what you already did, this is not 1980's east Germany!

TBH I am pretty pissed off, but will not be telling the Police, but I do think peer pressure is a good thing.
 

I appreciate the reason for your annoyance, keeping calm, manners etc. There are always a % of people whose behaviour is different/essentially ruins it for everyone else. But try to look at it in perspective. A pub in Sheffield just got busted for remaining open throughout this entire period and t he police found punters hiding in cupboards - that would be far worse in terms of spread, R value etc than a few individuals outside. Does make you wonder what else is going on ? It’s annoying as it means that this is going to drag on for even longer. 

My perspective is this character came right up to me swearing and giving me intimidation in front of my wife, not to mention could have infected me.

If he had just said fair cop, but hey just gagging to climb, I get that.

But swearing at me and saying he would see me around.

If I was worried about losing access I wouldn't be posting about it online.

I hate the term covidiots, it justifies people making judgements on others who are out during this time without any further knowledge of why they are out.

I'm not condoning the behaviour, just think we need to have more compassion.

I'd have reported it to the police, if I'd felt that strongly.

I really worry about how we are going to climb outside again in the coming weeks...

Id have done absolutely nothing to be honest.

​​​​​​That's the actions of someone who knows they've done wrong but isn't big enough to admit it.

I wasn’t criticising what you’ve done. I was saying that these people may well be in a certain % of people that aren’t listening to current advice.

However, I probably wouldn’t have bothered to say anything either as I dislike the judgemental mentality this crisis seems to have brought out in people (on social media anyway). 

Wouldn't worry to much, if he has that attitude he will come across a Don Whillans of the scene sooner or later and get re-aligned.

You did just the right thing... nothing more, nothing less.

In reply to jcoup:

Plenty of people agree with that. It's what allows serial murderers and rapists to do what they do for so long.

If it hadn't been for Hindley's brother in law who knows how many little kids' bodies would have been lying under the peat?

Tell you something, wish I had been climbing on Gimmer this morning and not walking in a quarry.

I am pissed off now.

Wow - that’s a real hop skip and leap out of the park in terms of comparison. Have a sarcastic like. 

What would you have done?

I'd have enjoyed my walk without feeling the need to harass, condem or report the climbers on social media.

Edit: I might have also wished them a cheery "good day" and asked how the routes were.

Troy is local to me as well. I note that the access has been restricted of late, cctv in the car park etc. There used to be an antisocial element that went there to drink and dick about, so I can understand your concern around access.

If you phone has a camera, then take photos of the mouthy git. Go to the car park (or road that leads to the car park) and take photos of the cars there. Perhaps the idea that he is being observed might curb his intimidation.

Nothing to do with climbing, just the notion that no-one likes a grass.

.My local council has a website where you can give details of people who you see fly-tipping. I've used it once and I'll use it again if the circumstances warrant it.

I knew there were quite a few tossers in the climbing community but I thought there were less than the general population but with some of the replies on this thread I'm not so sure. The dislike button is flushing a few out to your post.

35 days. It clearly is just too much to ask.

The better course of action would have been to report it. I am not sure publicising on here helps, rather it may encourage others to go climbing, an if it's OK for them, it's OK for me attitude. 

Other sports have disciplinary procedures, race/fight licences can be revoked. The nature of climbing prevents this. The worst the bmc could do would be to refuse to insure, which would cost the bmc. 

I'm not sure calling anyone tossers is helpful.

People have different viewpoints but abuse or intimidation seems pretty obnoxious behaviour, difficult to condone whatever you think of the climbing. As off duty says, 35 days and everyone is getting a bit ratty and disinclined to play by a set of rules they might think is arbitrary  

Just for clarity, I too think they are tossers.

That's all well and good, fly tipping is actually an offence. Climbing isn't necessarily, but we've all been over that countless times.

Go and get my harness....

No excuse for that sort of rudeness though...

Out of curiosity, was the guy bigger than you?  Sounds like a bit of a bully.

I think you were correct to challenge them as they might not have heard about no climbing. Although this is unlikely as there's been enough publicity about it.

You can't reason with idiots unfortunately, and they will continue to keep losing us access to crags.

It was about the mildest term of abuse I could think of. When you remember that the OP and his wife was been threatened with physical abuse ('see you around' is pretty intimidating). You seem  more concerned about the feelings of the tossers.

Yes we have, and the consensus seemed to be that reporting incidents through official channels was preferable to You Tube shaming, tyre slashing etc. If it isn't illiegal it won't earn anyone a criminal record so no harm done.

Well quite. But do we want to waste that much police time? I went for a run with the wife this evening, if every resident of Hayfield believed that we might live at different addresses, because it’s certainly a possibility without knowing us, and were out running as a pair then where would we be? 
I saw two gents out together on mountain bikes earlier, chances are they don’t live together.. should I have fired off a few pics and dobbed them in? Complete waste of time as there are zero resources available to track them down. There was a large family group out walking up past Bowden Bridge car park, should I have done the same and snapped every parked car? What if they’d walked from Hayfield where they lived? 

You should have done just  as you did, because that's what you felt was right.

By the same token, the OP did what he felt was right and in the interests of the local climbing community. He didn't get many thanks for it then and his support on here is wavering to say the least but I for one admire him for his actions.

This is exactly what I was talking about. 4 individuals climbing in a quarry really is small fry. I definitely don’t agree with threatening behaviour and risking losing access etc but there are people having house parties, barbecues on Stanage (with associated vandalism according to another thread). 

There is always 2 sides to a story. I’m sure the OP was totally polite and stand up about everything. But the level of aggression and indignation over something relatively insignificant is being repeated on lots of other social media threads - some about children playing in fields. You don’t know other people’s circumstances.

Comparing this incident to the Hindley/Brady murders, one of the most heinous crimes in British history, is ludicrous. As for climbers being less likely to be “tossers” - I have met a great plenty of people in the great outdoors that seem to have an over zealous interest in what others are doing and an obnoxious manner in which to accompany it but probably not more or less than you meet in the community. 

I wouldn’t have done what the OP did, as I don’t feel the need to stick my nose in anywhere - I’m not the confrontational type. I might have tutted a bit, but that’d have been it. I don’t have any problem with him calling them out, in fact I’m quite happy he did. 
My only qualm was with reporting them to the police. It’d never be investigated. It’d potentially be raised officially via UU. Nobody would win, everybody would potentially lose. 

The link I posted was to the COVID19 reporting hub. You might get a couple of cops out to investigate the breach.  Some places are running a dedicated car to service breach reports 

Not sure whether it would get flagged to UU, after all BMC have been quite clear with their instructions and UU have fenced off the car park. 

Just out of interest, why do people think that UU would care? 

(I can see that access on some crags could be sensitive, with farmers being touchy about people on their land in current circumstances, but I'm struggling to see why an entity like UU would care about climbing continuing to happen.)

True enough. I’ve played on Bottoms Reservoir Quarry in the past where there is no formal climbing agreement.. had a UU van drive past once, and after the initial ‘uh oh’ passed, they passed, without so much a second look. 

Though UU have no liability for any climbing-related incidents (see, eg http://adlib.everysite.co.uk/adlib/defra/content.aspx?id=000IL3890W.18SX1EF...), there might be issues around reputational damage if it could be argued that by not restricting access completely, they have even in a very hands-off way been complicit in allowing anti-social behaviour, if a very broad interpretation of that is used.  These lockdown conditions are new ground for us all.

A very slim chance, all sensible people would hope. But common sense, public opinion, the law and many other things are not always aligned in the manner one would wish and a sensitive UU might take a dimmer view than one would wish.

All things considered, the sleeping dog of access to UU land is best left undisturbed.

T.

Hayfield? What is going on there recently,  keep hearing some pretty depressing stuff....

I ran through today, lots of groups out walking. 

Interesting, thanks. So is that one car for entire force areas, or the localised units? Say GMP.. when they’re attending 600+ parties a day as per the first weekend of lockdown..? That’s not one or even two cars investigating breaches. 

In my limited experience it would be for the shift, so it might depend how big that area was. It also something that has developed over the last few weeks rather than just deploying the next available unit. I would anticipate there will also be force resources dedicated to COVID19 but the procedure for their deployment may require local attendance first.

If your tone was calm and theirs wasn't then a call to the police should have been your follow up action.

It's tough out there!

I haven’t heard anything untoward to be fair? Care to expand? The road up to Kinder reservoir was quite busy and there were 8 cars parked outside the car park, separated by spaces that presumably had another 8 or so cars in them at one point. The bridle way that runs up the cobbled hill directly to the left of the main access gates to the res had been locked shut a few weeks ago, but was today sporting a new latch so somebody must have responded to it with some vigour! I can see why it’d be locked to be fair, it is narrow and you can’t maintain separation but equally as per the corona laws that gives the NT new powers there was no public notification it’d been shut - there is no easy detour from that point.

So yes, aside the 3 generation family out walking and the two bikers in Birch Vale I didn’t have any reason to look upon others with suspicion. Even had friendly waves and hellos from some folk in their front gardens. All very civilised.

I didn't compare the climbing incident to the Moors Murders. There is absolutely no connection.

I was referring to the notion that" no-one likes a grass" which someone else fetched into the discussion. I've already explained this . (15.55)

And just for extra clarity, entitled tossers 

The way I see it the other commentator was indirectly suggesting that reporting something like this is of a petty nature and that people who would feel it necessary would not be well liked generally.

Your statement suggests that ‘not grassing‘ allows murderers and rapists to go undetected and then mentions the moors murders. 

I get your point but what you’re suggesting is overly provocative and a bit crass, given the significance of the crimes mentioned. 
 

We have the same problem in Llanfairfechan North Wales, fresh chalk and quick draws appeared on Creigiau Cigfran over the last couple of days.  I can only presume that these people have not seen the news read a paper or live in a cave.  

Take a dump over the edge?

I know a chap, a lovely, intelligent, considerate fellow who had to be talked out of driving about 2hrs to walk up a Corbett  yesterday. He's not even a particularly frequent hill walker, just fancied it. Apparently, he genuinely didn't see a problem with it and knowing him I can believe it.

Hard to believe I know and it's not an excuse but it certainly made me think that there's more reasons behind people breaking lockdown than them being tossers.

His words were not specifically linked to the climbing incident. I took them to be a piece of advice  about life, not just a breach of Covid restrictions.

Anyway the comment has disappeared more or less. 

I obviously misunderstood your post.

From the comment about dislikes flushing out some people on ukc I thought you were implying that there were tossers here in the climbing community on ukc

If you read my post you'll know I thought the intimidatory behaviour was reprehensible

For the record the OP said what should I have done, not what would YOU have done. 

Also what you would have done is typical of people who think we should all be able to do whatever we like regardless of the consequences. 

I personally think he should have confronted him as like others have said he sounds like an entitled tosser who obviously couldn’t give a shit about all the front line workers health, people dying in droves and is happy to completely ignore the endless pleas from all and sundry to abide by the rules for the good of the country.

I mean why bother when we can all just do whatever the hell we want? Because who’s going to stop us?

Also, if we’re challenged, we’ll accept the fact we’ll face abuse, threats and then condemnation from other like minded ignoramuses on UKClimbing.  

Nothing. Mean if there are 4 of them maybe they were not socially distancing, or maybe they were from the same household, who knows.

At the end of the day though if one infects the others or  their families, they only have themselves  to blame.  it's not really any of your business and in this case by interfering you've ended up breaching social distancing yourself and now you're a possible infection risk. 

SteveX, 

You should have give him a Rossendale kiss, knocked him out, give all his mates a good hiding, commandeered all their climbing gear, sold the gear off to raise money for the local charity and then the next time you ‘saw him around’ you could say

“Don’t mess with Steve XXX especially when he’s with his missus !

* My apologies the OP did in fact as what you would have done, I was looking at that title so was wrong however, I stand by the rest of my comment. 

You know the climbing part of what they were doing is not illegal, just that’s it’s not currently recommended by the BMC that’s all. It is also frowned upon by most climbers who value continued access to some sensitive crags after lockdown. But legally climbing is still allowed as a form of daily excersize so nothing the police should have done for this.

Hanging round in a group of 4 could be different and possibly against the law unless they are from the same household. Did you ask them about this before assuming the worst?

Acces might have been anther bone of  contention. Trespass (if the quarry had been shut) is not a criminal offence, it’s a civil matter. The police would not get involved unless damage was being caused. But assuming as you were there in any case then you had no issues with potential trespass or access even though the car park was blocked off. 

So was your gripe about their climbing or that they were hanging round together?

Comparing raping and murdering children to breaking lockdown guidelines is really unhelpful.

Saying that he was "Comparing raping and murdering children to breaking lockdown guidelines" is even more unhelpful.

For the third time, I made no such comparison. Read my post again. I was not talking about climbing, I was talking about the notion that "no-one likes a grass". 

You did the right thing.

You are wrong*. The OP said (and I quote), "What would you have done?" you can find this by reading the OP to the bottom.

And for the record it sounded to me that the climbers were not causing harm to themselves or others and that if confronted with a  friendly chat (from a socially distancing distance) wouldn't have got upset and started getting mardy. While I don't condone them getting rude and I'm staying at home myself I wouldn't feel the need to condemn them on social media or ruin my walk so what I would have done is what I said. Sure being locked down is shite and sure it is a society thing for the good of society but the situation isn't helped by everyone revealing holier-than-thou virtue signalling.

* yes I saw your "*"

To quote the OP:

'One comes down and unties, comes right up to me telling me a load of bollocks about...'

It would appear that if the OP is a possible infection risk (and I very much hope not), it's not his fault but rather the fault of one of the climbers.

Mick

Agreed.

Given that the inevitable consequence of ignoring the rules is to extend the spread of the virus, perpetuate the misery of lockdown for all of us and cause the deaths of those who are vulnerable to lung disease (usually your own friends and relatives), I am suprised that there are so many supportive / neutral voices on this thread.

A sound beating would be a perfectly rational response...afterall, the process of education and explaination has failed on them. 

Ideally, beat them half to death with their own climbing equipment and leave them bleeding in an over-crowded CV-19 ridden hospital corridor, so they can see for themselves exactly what all the fuss is about. 

And torch their car, for good measure.

The OP is to be commended for making a stand. I'm not sure I would have had the bollocks. 

Because the only thing they were doing that appeared to be illegal was hanging round in a group of 4.  And we don't know if they were from the same household perhaps, in which case it is allowed.  Or it could have been two separate groups of 2?

Hospitals are not overcrowded.  A consultant friend of mine say that they are quiet as anything.  A&E staff in his are on shorter shifts than normal.  The NHS is coping just fine.  If they went to A&E having been beaten half to death with their own climbing equipment then they would have a far shorter wait to be seen than in normal times.

Stand against what?  Do we really want to live in a society where we grass each other up all the time for even the most minor of infringements?  The OP needs to remember that he is not the police.  Let the police do their job, and let's in the meantime concentrate on keeping our own house in order before we go around judging or shaming others.

Semantics. We all know that we shouldn't be undertaking non-essential travel. Climbing at Troy isn't essential. And it contributes to the spread of the disease.

Stop being an idiot.

Yes they are. They are absoloutly rammed, their staff are exhausted. My wife manages the A&E ward at Salford. I'd take her word over the word of your make-believe consultant mate. So, stop being an idiot.

A stand against selfish tossers.

I want to live in a society where we do the right thing for the sake of everyone else. And a society where, if you don't, you are punished.

So, stop being an idiot. 

No you don't, you want to live in a STASI state it would seem, one where anyone who disagrees with your misinterpretations of the law is labelled an idiot or beaten up it would seem.

As I was saying; stop being an idiot.

Hang them!                  youtube.com/watch?v=epm9z_MpF6s&

Haha, get a life sad sack!

Regardless of any argument as to whether climbing is in or out at the moment you saw something you didn't agree with, were outnumbered ( I assume apart from your wife nobody else around?) and you still had the kahunas to call them out for it to their face, there and then.

Let's face it, most of us wouldn't!

Well, that's the point, isn't it?!

Unfortunately, having a life is far from assured whilst self-obsessed, entitled tossers like the 4 idiots at Troy are actively ignoring medical advice and, in so doing, are perpetuating the spread of CV-19....they are literally killing people.

And, whilst slack-jawed halfwits like you are supporting them in their endeavours.

So, please, stop being an idiot and get with the programme. 

Stop being hysterical, put on some big boys pants, learn to mind your own business and read what the actual government law surrounding lockdown says you daft half wit.

Yes but to do nothing will always result in there being no confrontation and having an easier time won’t it, in any area ie parenting, witnessing crime, the list goes on and of course in order for the majority to have a peaceful existence let’s all do nothing, mind our own business etc.

The problem there though is obvious. 

Also what do you mean by ‘having a friendly chat from a socially acceptable distance? If you mean saying “hi how’s it going, good for you for climbing but are you not worried about the rules?” Or something along those lines. Their response, I’d presume, would be yeah it’s great and no we’re not arsed... so what would be the point because he was challenging them not patting them on the back?

He challenged them specifically because he was annoyed and irritated therefore presumably this would have been conveyed through what he said and so they would have always reacted as they did. 

Again as many people have stated across various forums on here the idea that they are not harming themselves or others is subjective and divisive.

Of course there would always be a risk of them harming themselves and then depending on the outcome ie going to hospital, of harming others and that’s exactly where the whole argument start again. 

Anyway, as will always be the case each person will do what they feel is the right thing.

Some for the good of themselves some for the good of others. 

The climbers of the 70s and 80s would be shocked at how climbers today are going around telling others how to act. Whats happened to the sport?

Maybe you should read your post again, since (at least) three people thought that you did make that comparison. I get your point - you think informing is socially and morally acceptable. Your choice of extreme example was pretty unfortunate though.

This thread's a good microcosm of the country as a whole - everyone's angry and frustrated and its seems like loads of people are ready to throw around wild accusations and insults. Hyping up the rhetoric by bringing the moors murderers into the conversation isn't calming things down at all.

I really don't get all this. I mean their behaviour was appalling of course, but I fail to see how what they were doing is worst than when I cycle in Central London on a sunny Sunday inhaling hundreds (if not thousands, last Sunday I got bored counting past 300 after 20mins..) of other cyclist microdroplets and trying no to crash with anyone and end up in a NHS bed (lost of not very proficient cyclist on the road currently). If climbing is banned then so should running and cycling, that's my opinion after this 8 weeks exercising in Central London. 

I found amusing the sugestion Don Whillans would have beaten up the climbers in a weird rewriting of history. Chances are Don would have been the one climbing and getting aggro with the nosy tut-tutters, probably throwing a punch here and there for good measure.

I blame UKH

Ha, ha. I did the same the other day. I counted 283 people i passed by at less than the designated 2m as there was no other way before i got bored. I thought you had moved to Sheffield? Sorry you are stuck in London mate

Well no, the house in the Peak qualifies as second home so I'm stuck in zone 2 London. 

But climbing is not banned.  It is still a perfectly legal activity.  The BMC have advised that we don't climb right now that's all and hence most of us are voluntarily heeding the BMC advice. 

It is still a free country though, not some STASI state, so when we get a jumped up, half-educated simpleton on here throwing around insults, yet it's clear he has not even read what the actual law says, then we have a problem. 

Too many people around right now like this guy, a sad curtain twitcher, snitching on others and generally behaving like some self appointed vigilante and then trying to claim it's in the best interests of the NHS.  Bollocks is it! 

Most people are just trying to get on as best they can with their lives under difficult circumstances whilst sticking to the guidelines.  They don't need self important pricks like this muppet giving them a lecture based on his own 'made up' interpretations of what the government guidelines actually say. 

I have. And it's quite clear that none essential travel is out.

In this case, the rules of common sense are pretty obvious too. Not to mention the advice by almost every government and medical association worldwide.

If you struggle with long words and official documentation, the same message has been published by the BMC, UKC, the vast majority of the population and pretty much everyone and everything inbetween.

We all know how we are supposed to be behaving and why we are supposed to be behaving in this way. And, we all know that climbing is out.

And yet, you think you known better! And you're prepared to risk other people's lives and livelihoods to prove it.

The only conclusion that can logically be drawn from this is that you are a category A, ocean-going cock-womble whose frontal lobes have been eaten away by Corona Virus! 

Seek help!

You really are a case, aren't you?

Steve - well done for doing the blindingly obvious (to the majority anyway) right thing. Sadly, anyone with the huge sense of selfish entitlement those four have isn't at all interested in what's good for society. You should have called the police as soon as the guy became threatening. Having a difference of opinion is one thing, threatening violence is totally unacceptable.

You seem angry, count to ten that might help. 

Also just for laughs, a vigilante can only ever be self appointed, that’s the whole point. 

Isn't it ironic for you to call a person so many names and to get so angry at their actions.... I guess it’s ok for you but not them? 

Did you read the bit in the OP about how United Utilities could use the actions of a couple of spunk flutes to ban access to the crag forever?

Read my post above and more importantly the actual government coronavirus law regarding excersise (including climbing) before you jump to conclusions you daft inbred.

Brilliant!!! No wonder English has conquered the world. Made me laugh out loud. Just for accuracy though, there were actually FOUR spunk flutes (unless a 'flute' means a pair?).

Northern Star and Walrus: Can you two give the personal abuse a rest now, please? Its not going to do any good and its getting pretty irritating.

If they're Spunk Flutes, their self-appointed lacky, is a full blown spunk trumpet!

Think you did the right thing.

The argument seems to have become very heated, partly because there are at least 4 issues involved:

1. Do the climbers live together?
2. Have they traveled far? I think 10 minutes is probably a good maximum, but there are no hard and fast rules.
3. What risk is there that they will fall off and use up NHS capacity? A hard call, but mostly about how high you get and how risky the climbing is. 
4. What risk is there that they will pass on the virus by touching holds that others may use? To be sure of no risk you need to be the only household who will climb there within a ten (or more?) minutes travel of the crag. 

There is a good chance that they violate 1, 2 and 3, and almost certainly 4 as well.

There are some situations where all 4 issues are currently ok e.g. you are traversing a small boulder in your own garden.

To be clear my nearest crag is stone farm (40 minutes), so I would fail on points 2 and 4 and have no thought of going yet. Annoying though as I bet it's really dry at the moment!

I can see that as lock down is eased we may need to think about these issues. Maybe we will need an app/website that allows people to claim time slots on crags or areas of crags to allow social distancing and time for the virus to degrade? I certainty would be happy to claim a 6-10am bouldering slot at Bowles rocks sometime in June .

R

Irrespective of the arguments over following BMC guidance, climbing as a sport in the last couple of decades seems to have lost whatever counter-cultural identity it might once have had. People will no doubt have differing views on whether that matters or not, but I can't think of any modern-day equivalents to climbers like Ed Drummond or Jim Bridwell.

Well said. If disagreements can't be civil, then there's nothing to be gained by sharing them with the rest of us.

T.

No it's not banned, what I meant is that is not a "reasonable" form of exercise. Whereas cycling and running are, but they seem more dangerous to me, even if I had to drive miles. So the term 'reasonable' is arguable. The other day I went passed a road near me, which is busy with cyclists most times, and there was a cluster of 6 police cars (no less!) attending a cyclist under a car, not one policeman wearing PPE, and lots of cyclist standing around. I assumed the lane was too packed with cyclists and he had nowhere to go and ended up under a wheel and the other cyclist were asked to wait to give witness to police. That was 12pm last Tuesday. I very honestly thought I'd be better off driving a 100 miles away to do my cycling, I felt I had less of a chance of ending up using an NHS bed... I think the rules need revising or relaxing

And;

5. If a load of frustrated, self-isolating        climbers see 4 selfish halfwits climbing    at Troy, how long before they give-up on social distancing and go climbing themselves?

How long before the ripple effect spreads to the rest of us, and we all mob the crags once again, spreading CV-19 in the process.

And filling the pubs nearby. And campsites. And shops. And service stations. And causing other people to break isolation and do whatever it is they've been wanting to do for the last few months.

The law isn't the primary issue, here. Decent people don't need the law to force them not to behave in a selfish, irresponsible manner. Only arseh@les do.

Until fairly recently, there was no law against driving whilst stoned, or on-the-phone. Did this make it acceptable? Or was it dangerous and reprehensible, regardless of what the law says?

Halfwits like Northern Star can argue until the covid-comes-home about the vagaries or rushed, emergency legislation. 

That's not the point.

The point is that ignoring the guidelines causes us all to suffer.

Those who do so are, at very best, a bunch of irresponsible, unpleasant, selfish spunk flutes.

Unknown, but sounds unlikely

What you think is irrelevant

Correct

Totally dependent on the route they were climbing, and the grade relative to their own skill and experience. Also, the style in which they were climbing, onsite solo Vs top roping for example. 

Extremely unlikely, the NHS is nowhere near capacity, particularly for trauma cases. May have to wait longer for an ambulance or require a MR call out though. 

Extremely unlikely, the virus outside on bare rock is not going to last very long in large enough quantities to be contagious and given they both have to touch it, then put fingers in mouth or eyes, which with chalked hands is unlikely anyway. Added to the fact so few people are climbing right now. Lab tests show the virus is still "detectable" after 48 hours etc on certain surfaces in lab conditions are very different from being a viable culture capable of infecting someone on touch. 

By far the biggest issue with what these people were doing is not socially isolating, although that is only speculation right now. The climbing, driving, et are insignificant from a risk perspective and also completely legal. 

I was musing about this earlier today.  The vast majority of climbers back in the days were unquestionably normal people doing otherwise normal things; culture, rather than counter-culture.  The idea that back in the day climbers were all rebels living only for the rock is romantic hogwash, but it does seem to be a persistent and enduring hogwash.

So it's not so much that it's been lost, more that it never really was part of the lives of most climbers.

T.

In some peoples opinion.  I'm not climbing myself but I am not going to judge, snitch on or attempt to shame others who are acting within the law.

It is highly unlikely that Covid1-19 is going to be spread at the crag.

Pubs, campsites, most shops etc. are still closed in case you need reminding.

Bigger assholes jump to conclusions and try to force their own made up laws on others.

Unfortunately it was fairly acceptable back in the 60's and 70's.  Not really relevant to this discussion.

It's not vague, its perfectly clear that climbing is still legal.  Understanding things is not your strong point is it?

Only if they get publicly shamed and publicised on the internet by self righteous nanny state pricks like you.

I've done what you suggested.

The first thing I notice is that I've quoted a section of the original in my reply and that section has nothing to do with climbing.

I then go on to explain why the notion of not grassing can lead to criminals getting away with serious crimes.

Following this I cite an actual example of an informer being probably instrumental in saving the lives of a group of potential victims. 

At no point have I made a connection between the activity of climbing and the crimes I was referring to (other than mentioning them on the same thread).

The fact that three people  have made a flawed reading of the post isn't something I can do a lot about but if you want to play the numbers game compare the likes to the dislikes.

That is a strong conclusion when given the legislation;

Restrictions on movement
6.—(1) During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need—

(b) to take exercise either alone or with other members of their household;

The default position is a person may not leave 'the place where  they are living' without 'reasonable excuse' or 'need'

Arguing that driving some distance to indulge in your preferred form of exercise meets (b) is likely to be tricky. Possibly you could show that your 'need' for exercise could only be met by taking a trip in a car to go climbing. I do doubt it though.

No form of exercise would appear to be definitively lawful or unlawful under that piece of legislation. All individuals however must be able to show, if challenged, that the exercise that they are taking satisfies 'reasonable' and 'need' The default position (don't leave the place where they are living) is quite clear.

Tbh, I surprised how vitriolic  many of the voices on this thread are irrespective of one's view of whether we should be climbing at the moment.

The 'mushroom head' of a spunk quartet?

* CV-19 is spread by people. If there are a lot of people in the same place at the same time, it'll spread... like a busy crag. Same at the petrol station you call into on the way there, or the shop you call into on the way back. Or the place you pitch you tent or park your van.

* Reaching the conclusion that people who carry on regardless is hardly a 'jump'. Its a logical conclusion given that tens-of-thousands of people have already died from CV-19 and many people are doing what they can to prevent the spread.

* The fact that laws didn't and still don't cover all types of reprehensible behaviour is entirely relevant to your argument; that anything not expressly forbidden in law is acceptable. 

* Given that social-isolation can only be enforced with the cooperation and consent of the masses, reporting these climbers to the authorities is commendable.

Are you really this stupid, or are you making a special effort?

I'm suprised you're suprised; tens of thousands are dead and tens of millions are out of work and stuck indoors because of a virus which their actions is helping to spread.

They have already been given the polite and reasoned advice, but they think it doesn't apply to them. 

In such circumstances, it really can't harm to say it like it is.

I'm not sure I can top that, to be honest.

I'll dig out my copy of the profanasaurus and get back to you.. 

So for all of Northern Stars waffle about the law in relation to essential travel and exercise during the lockdown....it turns out he was talking bollocks!

As I have said all along. STOP BEING AN IDIOT!

There were a couple of people bouldering in the small quarry at Windgather at the weekend.....I didn't say anything....I stared and shook my head. I wish I'd said something in retrospect....

Please. If you didn't mean to imply a comparison you shouldn't have posted it in the context of discussing the rights and wrongs of op calling the cops. As to likes/dislikes, what can I say? Hysteria is infectious. I've repeatedly heard a similar argument equating grassing on guideline violators with informing on terrorists. How about instead we compare it with me phoning the cops because my neighbour's smoking weed? Would that be morally and socially acceptable?  A decision like that is always context dependent, like your post.

There’s a few on this thread could do with a nice calming spliff

As I understand it the guidance specifically says you can drive for exercise provided the exercise time is significantly longer than the drive time.

And really it makes sense, driving is not a high-risk activity. As an example, consider the overall infection risks of driving half an hour to walk two hours in complete isolation to the risk of not driving and walking 2 hours locally in parks and footpaths with dozens of other people about which certainly seems to be the case on my local paths. I'm sure somewhere there must be some statistics of the chances of an accident or breakdown in a car on a per-mile basis. 

We don't' know exactly where these people came from but if they were trad climbing I'd expect they would plan to be there for a couple of hours at least. It's reasonable to suspect they haven't travel too far because Troy quarry is pretty crap and if you're travelling any distance I'm sure there are better venues. So it would seem likely they would have been acting within the letter of the guidelines if not the spirit. 

But its all nitpicking really because it sounds likely at least they were not from the same household so they have already breached social distancing measures thus making the travel issue largely irrelevant. 

Has anyone asked if you took photos yet? I’m surprised there isn’t an underlying suspicion that it didn’t even happen! 
 

....so, did you take any photos?

I was taking issue with a single sentence in the post . The sentence was about informing to the police, not about climbing, though you have chosen to interpret it that  way .

How about instead we compare it with me texting the authorities because I saw a couple of blokes fly-tipping? Would that be morally and socially acceptable. ( I've already given my answer.)

I only mentioned the number of likes because someone else decided to use the weight of numbers to lend some sort of validity to their interpretation of my words. I don't see how implying hysteria on the part of people who showed some understanding of my post is going to help your argument.

That really has to be read together with Section 6(1) and the purpose of the regulations, in any event on May1st the UK government issued further guidance.

The purpose of the legislation is to make you stay at home.

If you are found outside your home (or the pace that you are living) you commit an offence.

If you are able to show that you had a reasonable excuse you have a defence.

This is the guidance (as of May 1st)

'1. Staying at home

You should only leave or be away from your home for very limited purposes:

shopping for basic necessities, for example food and medicine, which must be as infrequent as possible

one form of exercise a day, for example a run, walk, or cycle - alone or with members of your household

any medical need, including to donate blood, avoid injury or illness, escape risk of harm, or to provide care or to help a vulnerable person

travelling for work purposes, but only where you cannot work from home

Where parents or someone with parental responsibility do not live in the same household, children under 18 can be moved between their parents’ homes to continue existing arrangements for access and contact.'

these potential exceptions are qualified by;

'These reasons are exceptions and a fuller list is set out in the regulations. Even when doing these activities, you should be minimising time spent away from the home and ensuring that you are two metres apart from anyone outside of your household.'

Although I would be happy to try and argue that driving to go climbing fits in to this lot and satisfies Section 6(1) of the regulations I wouldn't bet on success.

Whether or not the regulations are coherent or are ideal is a different argument

A much more reasonable comparison! I disagree with you but I'm happy to agree to disagree now the emotive hyperbole has been dropped.

You've gone very quiet, now that your arguments have been blown out of the water.

Strange!

There's an elephant in the room.....

I can't believe no-one's mentioned this yet but the 4 people climbing were clearly insane. Troy's a shit venue. Why would you climb there??? Mental.

I'm happy to continue the discussion but in a different thread where it's clear from the start that my comments are not and never have been about climbing. 

Perhaps they stopped off for a climb on their way home from work?

Good point. Followed by a lock-in at that boozer in Sheffield.  

Why have you been waiting for a reply?  I've been out on my bike, slightly more than the recommended 10 miles.  Is that okay with you or are you going to snitch and tell on me?  And no it has not been blown out of the water, my argument still stands. 

Going to call me some more funny names in response?  Go on, you know you want to!

Are you two going to go for a nice walk together when such things are allowed? You seem to like talking to each other a lot??

I should imagine that they're going to get a room and make it up to each other.  Post-argument nookie can be very intense.

T.

But yes, it's gone beyond tedious and now is just making the pair of them look like a couple of chumps.  

Legal - The crux of your argument was that climbing at Troy under these circumstances was legal, and therefore acceptable. Clearly, it isn't, so it isn't. 

Moral - As above. You fallacious legal argument seems to have been used as justification for you moronic and irresponsible moral stance. Clearly, you can't have one without the other.

Names - idiotic dimwit seems to fit the bill for those among us who seek to undermine efforts to slow down the spread of CV-19 so that we can resume normality.

Do you have a link to the 1st of may update genuinely curious as it wasn’t really hyped in the media so i missed it

all I can say is that if the chief worries of life are what to do to police the places you go and you aren't a police officer then you are a lucky man

and anyone else here who thinks it is worth so  much bile

I'll continue to go quietly about my ways seeking solace in the woods and forget about the cars that drive there for whatever they are getting up to

Where does this 10 mile thing come from?

That'll have to wait until after the virus.

I'm all in favour of booking in to a cheap hotel room for rough, punishing sex with a strange man I've only just met on the internet...but I'm pretty confident that would be about as legal as climbing low quality quarried rock at Troy.

I wouldn't want to do it via Skype on the first date, either, like all the other pervs. I'd want it to be special. 

I've already put my points forward yet you have provided zero evidence yourself as to why they could be wrong.  Instead you've picked up on someone else's posts which are also not quite correct and tried to pass this off as your argument, perhaps because you didn't have the ability to put your own coherent argument forward.  I appreciate it is difficult to do this when you don't understand the facts.

Hence you seem to have resorted to Definition Number 2:

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=You%27re%20an%20idiot

Could you just clarify where in Rogerwebbs summary of the legal position he is "not quite correct", and then maybe we'd get a grasp of how well you "understand the facts".

Here's the link;

  https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/full-guidance-on-staying-at-home...

Ta,

edit: links not working dunno why

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/full-guidance-on-staying-at-home...

Probably didn't work because I thought about editing and then didn't

Probably out climbing....

As you will be able to see from the link you provided (which is the guidance) and much more importantly, the legal documents associated with it (which is the actual law part - I have linked to it below), a reasonable excuse to be out and about includes the allowance to take exercise either alone or with other members of your household.  As you can also see, climbing or any other sports for that matter are not excluded as permitted forms of exercise.  This means that climbing is indeed perfectly legal during these times - the law does not prohibit it.  Obviously team sports are precluded due to the numbers involved.  Please see link here:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/regulation/6

There are no legal restrictions relating to traveling for exercise, although some quite mixed guidance (not the law) has been given by ministers, one suggesting that travel for exercise was fine so long as the duration of the exercise taken exceeded the travel time (or some such wording).  There are some pretty inconsistent messages from different police forces here too.  But the legal standpoint is clear.  Traveling for exercise is not prohibited by law. There are also no legal restrictions surrounding how far you can travel for exercise - and this is where common sense comes into play.

The only law these people could have fallen foul of is potentially the restrictions on public gatherings (see Section 7) whereby 4 people, if not from the same household would be above the permitted number of 2.  That said were these 4 actually gathering, or were they in fact 2 groups of 2, keeping a reasonable distance apart whilst climbing.  Perhaps all 4 were living under the same roof (e.g. a family, a houseshare etc).  In which case what they are doing would seem to be perfectly legal.  Please see link here:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/regulation/7

see my post of 14.23

The default police interpretation of the law seems to now be:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/16/driving-for-exercise-allowed-...

Indt reply to Ghillie23c:

Hi Steve

If I wanted to avoid the government rules, the BMC and all the TV rhetoric and climb, this crag is almost a perfect choice.

A remote crag, not popular if logbooks are to be believed, a steep walk in and the crag is invariably dirty early season.

Approaching the crag after parking In Llanfairfechan necessitates walking past a children's play ground invariably busy and often the young children are unsupervised. My partner and I feel under suspicion from the locals as we park and leave the car. I sense a very closely knit community.

Am surprised the locals didn't challenge them, if of course they were around, bearing in mind Covid 19.

Ian Knight

The key word in that is 'likely' it also dates from April 16th as opposed to the UK government guidance of May 1st. Ultimately it is a matter for the courts not the police or indeed UK government advice.

The offence is one which you have committed as soon as you leave your home. It is then up to you to justify your absence as a 'reasonable excuse'. 

The people mentioned in the OP are certainly in breach of 6(1). They may have a defence in terms of 6(2). Unless they live next door or very close to the crag and are from the same household and can show a need to exercise for the extended period involved in climbing my view is that is unlikely. 

The legislation does not specifically make any form of exercise lawful or unlawful but it must satisfy the test in S(6) (England and Wales) or S(8) in Scotland, but, given that the purpose of the legislation is to keep people at home, travelling to climb will be tricky to justify. It certainly won't minimise time out of the house. 

I think what you are searching for is the CPS guidance here (pdf) https://www.college.police.uk/What-we-do/COVID-19/Documents/What-constitute...

As has been discussed. At length. In previous threads. This is advice on possible interpretations of reasonable excuse. It's littered with caveats about case by case analysis.

Speaking as someone who actually has to enforce this legislation, I would suggest that the position is as follows.

Listen to the government guidance. Do that, you shouldn't have any issues.

You want to ignore bits if the guidance and try and work to the letter of the law? Great.

Make sure you are able to justify your "need" to leave the place where you live. Your "reasonable excuse" probably ought to incorporate things like why you decided to ignore the locked up car park, the BMC advice about climbing, the fact that your desperate need to exercise can only be satisfied by driving to a quarry when it isn't raining, with a partner, and a bunch of climbing gear.

While you are considering that, I'll be considering how much engaging, explaining and encouraging I do before I write you a ticket.

Edit for clarity - I've used the term "you" to refer to the hypothetical person going climbing, not directed at Northern Star, who I'm sure wouldn't be

Well, that's all she wrote, folks.

In summary. They broke the law when they decided to go climbing (and intimidate the bloke who challenged them). More importantly, they selfishly reneged on the moral obligations we all have to each other to do everything we can to prevent the spread of CV-19.

Your support for their actions is at best idiotic, at worst a means of inciting other to follow suit.

Reasonable, responsible people do not behave in this way.

Reasonable, responsible people are able to prioritise 'the essential', like a worldwide pandemic over 'the trivial', like rock climbing.

Life, health, happiness and livelihoods depend on it. If you are too stupid or too selfish to understand that, you really, really are an arse. 

on Friday I drove to Ramshaw, im based in leek so its local. I drove around the corner and the only car there a police car. I could see 2 of them walking up towards the crank area. I parked up and headed up. they spotted me and shouted over. asked where I was from. told them leek to which they said no problem and enjoy your walk. they did say they asking because they have seen people from Nottingham derby and Birmingham there. 

...and it would appear that some people on here don't know what a 'grass' is.  A 'grass' is someone who tells on their partner(s) in crime when they'd previously agreed they were 'in it together'.  A 'public spirited person' is someone who tells on people they have no relationship with.  SteveX is not a grass.

Yes I did take a photo from a distance, with no climbers recognisable, popped this on my local club facebook, the climber in question then came on the FB group and it all got arsey.

The other three did not get involved.

The climber came down, untied, started taking off all his gear and came right up to me, saying things like see you around (thats a threat) and real close up body language. Just the being very close up is intimidating in these strange times. This was not a slanging match from 10 paces, this was next thing to eye ball to eye ball.

Should I have posted, and mentioned Troy, possibly not, but I was upset, however I did email UKC suggesting they might want to delete the thread, and they obviously feel its fine.

"Hi,
if you want to delete this posting because it could cause access issues, thats fine by me. Your site, your rules.
Cheers Steve"

At the end of the road leading to Troy are Untied Utility houses with I think still United Utlity Workers living there and CC TV on the car park, so anyone who imagines that UU do not know what happens, is kidding themselves.

I find it notable that the BMC office have not replied to this thread, explaining exactly what a person should do in this situation. The BMC do read this forum and I have it on good authority that they refer to it as Cock Talk.

The reason behind this lockdown is about saving lives, and all this talk of 70s climbers and other such is just bollocks, people are currently losing jobs, businesses that they have built up over many years and possibly their homes, and did I mention possibly there lives, so not going climbing is a small price.

But I have a trip to the Dollies booked for July, DWS in Majorca, was going to Spain for for an extended period next winter, and loads of plans for the UK, all very unlikely to happen, so I am very upset not to be be climbing and I do understand what it means to not be climbing. 

I have not named the thug, or implied I would.
I have not reported to the Police, nor implied I would.

What I did do was ask him in a reasonable way, what he was playing at.

For what it's worth I'm not the official spokesperson for UKC, so don't take what I say as gospel, but from my perspective there's two ways of looking at this thread: the first is that we should remove it, destroy any evidence, and pretend it never happened; the second is that we leave it up as proof that climbers are indeed doing their best to stick by the advice and that as a community we are critical of those who flaunt the guidance. More experienced access reps might have something about this, but we have - as you might have expected from the fact that the thread is still up/running - opted for the latter.

Out of interest, have you contacted either Rob Dyer or your local access rep about this? Whilst the thread at hand clearly has its place for discussion in/amongst the climbing community, if you're after an official response (which seems to be what your post is implying/expecting) then surely getting in touch with them direct is the best way to do it (rather than hoping they'll notice, then becoming critical when they don't). 

When it comes to 'having it on good authority' what they may or may not call the Forums, might I suggest that you leave such unsubstantiated rumours out of your posts - it's just hurtful, damaging and unnecessary. 

Hi Rob,

Your first point, totally agree there are two perspectives, but I have been criticised for potentially impacting access with this post, and pointing out that I did do something about it. Personally I do not think will impact access.

Point 2, I have actually contacted Rob about United Utilities closing all the car parks in the area which prevents people from accessing good graded footpaths for close to home low risk walking and asking if a gentle push back is in order, the response I have had back is between me and Rob. But I have not mentioned this specific issue, but as our national representative body, they should be monitoring one of the pre eminent media sources in the UK and they could take the opportunity to give a clear message.

Point 3, well a few years ago I was chatting with some guys from the BMC office and this is what they called it and it did make make me laugh that they called it such, apologize that you find it hurtful, but thats nothing to what the old forums were like, UK.Rec Climbing and the like. Edit that bit out if you want though. Sorry for upsetting you.

Hi Steve,

Don't worry, it takes a lot more to offend me! Given that half of the staff at the BMC are former colleagues and half the others are people I've worked with through volunteering I have no doubt that UKC/BMC relations have never been better, so if it was said it was likely said in jest.

When it comes to the thread, I've sent Rob Dyer a quick message to gather his thoughts, because as you and various others have said we don't want to cause future access problems. 

What were you trying to achieve by posting a picture on Facebook?

Ha! When anybody asks anybody 'what are you playing it?', then almost by definition the tone used isn't completely 'reasonable.' Sounds like you got a reaction out of the guy; without having actually heard the exchange, it is impossible for any of us to know what happened.

so if it was said it was likely said in jest.

I am sure it was, its climbers humour, which I am often the butt of, they tell me they laugh at me because they like me, but sometimes I am not so sure

Off for a bike ride now, my wife was just speaking to a friend who says you cannot buy a bike for love nor money.

Hi Steve,

I think that you did well in the situation. Its unfortunate that the guy was agressive in response to you and that it was unpleasant for yourself and your wife.

I recall reading of an incident at Millstone many years ago when two climbers were top roping one of the trad embankment routes in normal climbing conditions, using ice axes and crampons. Photos appeared in the climbing mags accompanied by indignant letters but no one appeared to have approached them on the day.

So its not everyone who has the courage to speak out in an awkward situation.   

The gripe was about how they had tied in. Bowlines aren't suitable and far too risky during a COVID pandemic. Plus they were climbing much harder routes than the OP can and his wife knew it.

"What should I have done?"

Having read the thread, you should've gone to the top of the route they were on, whipped the old man out and peed on them, then run away really, really quickly.

Then we'd've had a good laugh and avoided three days of argument.

No, that could have caused a bad case of penis envy and escalated the incident.

If I want the crag to myself I just get naked and act really friendly with those on adjacent routes.

Are you referring to;

https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2010/12/millstone_winter_climbing_-_fools_w...

If so, these climbers were approached by 'several parties' but refused to stop. 

I imagine they thought the people who had a word with them were interfering virtue signalling busybodies. They probably went about their drytooling muttering about the Stasi, reasoning that they weren't actually breaking any laws or government restrictions, they were unlikely to need the uses of the emergency services and they weren't likely to endanger access. They probably chuntered a bit about the lack of anarchy present in our sport, about  the BMC not having the authority to start laying down rules  about the conduct of individual climbers.They were probably not best pleased at being the subject of  shaming vigilantism when they saw that they had been outed on UKC. 

Jesuschrist man. First you compare not dobbing people to the police for simply climbing with letting off rapists and serial murderers, and now you compare going climbing without doing any harm with drytooling at Millstone. I think you need to take a step back and get a bit of perspective on what is actually harmful as opposed to what annoys a few armchair critics.

Hi Dave,

thanks for making the effort to find and post this link. Its not the one I was thinking of. The incident I was referring to was well before the advent of UKC.  

No, I think you need to take a step back and assess what is really harmful, but you need to put your non-climber specs on to do this.

The actions taken at Millstone by a couple of lads who contravened a set of rules arrived at by consensus solely within the climbing community and applied solely within the climbing community would be trivial to the average man in the street and the outrage they provoked in our very niche community would be all but incomprehensible to an outsider.

The Troy Quarry incident might be viewed differently by a non-climber, I don't really know.

As for the comparison between not informing on climbers with not informing on murderers, it never happened.  A handful of people  can't grasp this but that isn't my problem.Climbers were never mentioned, in spite what a lot of people seem inclined to infer.

Meh. The only harm these guys did was a load of hurt butts and a few burst forehead capillaries, and while you lot are all sharpening your pitchforks fantasizing on how you'd stop those who climb since climbing is the gateway to murdering and raping children any non-climber would have forgotten about them by the time they reached the gates of the quarry by more pressing matters like "steak or fish for dinner?"

You may well be right about non-climbers being unconcerned about four blokes climbing at Troy Quarry.

They'd be equally indifferent to a couple of guys scratching their way up the Embankment.

Who cares about some blokes climbing something. Let them have their fun, who knows it could be their only release after a hard shift on a ward. You really don't know. 

Do you understand that the reason the BMC have asked us not to climb is to save lives and protect the NHS.

Do you understand that everyone does want to climb.

Why can these lot climb when everyone else is not?

I think you should have let them be, rather than sticking your beak in. 

Not hurting you, not hurting each other. Why feel the need to shame them all over here and social media too. (Saw your FB post on LCCC).

Have it on good authority that you were the one that started with the aggression, running down the crag-side waving your arms, shouting and pointing fingers whilst one was mid move 3m above ground? Its only when you started threatening with calling the police and UU did one of them become agitated and tell you to do one!?

Some people have minds of their own and don't like being controlled by mass media driven scaremongering. The whole lockdown is hypocrisy at its finest.

People queuing up at BandQ for compost and bedding plants, standing 2m away in the queue yet rubbing shoulders inside. Same at major supermarkets.

Therex only 2 ways to defeat a virus outbreak, herd immunity through mass infection or vaccination. 

You should have let them climb and gone about your business...

No the only time I mentioned the police was when I said 

Are you going to hit me, then it will be a police matter. (Or something like that)

I did not and never have shamed them on social media, I just said people were climbing. The fact that one of them came on Facebook and revealed himself, is his fault not mine. Just to repeat for the dull witted, I never revealed this persons name, nor reported to the police. 

If these guys can climb, why can I not, why can all the other climbers in Lancashire not.

Are they a special case, are we are all not climbing so that they can have the crags to themselves.

I do apologise, that my approach upset them in any way, I shall go on a customer training course so that next time I can approach them in a more satisfactory manner.

Tne BBC is reporting that the UK has passed 30,000 deaths.  Is that what you mean by scaremongering?

Who says you can't climb? The BMC? Do they own the crag? Is it membership only access? They have requested you don't. They haven't instructed everyone not to, they can't do that. They don't have the power to!

You're not climbing because your interpretation of daily exercise doesn't include climbing. Nowhere is it written in law that it is illegal to climb as part of your daily exercise!

I would say its for the police to decide what constitutes appropriate exercise, wouldn't you?

Everyone has a different interpretation. Mate of mine cycled over 100miles on Sunday for his daily exercise. I'd say the liklihood of being involved in an accident cycling is far greater than having an accident whilst climbing, but that's MY estimation. I didn't call him out, slate him, belittle him on social platforms.... cause hex not hurting me, and I just think 'fair play if he can get away with it. 

You've got to reason with yourself and your own conscience. Not that of other people.

So you are saying I should have said nothing and called the Police, crikey, thats harsh. No thats not something I would have done, unless Mr Thug had hit me, obviously.

Were you one of the 4?

Ah! The BBC. That bastion of unbiased, untainted reporting!

30k deaths eh?

All specifically down to covid19?

Well you can scratch 6 of those off as they were from a nursing home my mother in.law manages, residents who all had various other illnesses including final stage dementia and stage 4 lung cancer, but the authorities attributed the deaths to Covid19. 

How many others are there country wide?

Anyway, I'd have let them climb, and probably sat and watched for a bit too. 

Good on em I say!

and I just think 'fair play if he can get away with it'. 

But if everyone operated like that, surely the lockdown would be ineffective and we would end up with one of the highest infection rates and people dying unnecessarily?

Oh, hang on . . . 

ps, have you and your mates not just thought to STFU, and go and find a crag high on the moors where no one goes, rather than a quarry 4 mins from a motorway where loads of people go walking, just a thought.

You can do what the hell you want, just do not get caught.

no, I quite clearly don't say that do I, I say its for them to judge the legality. Not that you should call them. I also quite clearly state you should have left them be and gone about your business instead of getting yourself all worked up about it and posting all over various media platforms. 

Its certainly raised your blood pressure somewhat, when they probably couldn't care less what you, or the wider community think, and have gotten on with things rather than continuing to make it an issue.

Your last question... what makes you think I'm one of the four!? Why ask that? Would it matter!?

LOL, I am just laughing at you, UKC is my hobby when I am bored and cannot climb.

But you did say, "I would say its for the police to decide what constitutes appropriate exercise, wouldn't you?" and I did think they were breaking some law. I just thought have a word with them, but you clearly say its down to the Police, so as a law abiding citizen I would have to report to the police, and lets face it, if they are so confident in their stance, why not keep climbing and if the Police turn up, discuss it with them?

Infact why do they not report me to the Police, this irate bloke who spoiled their climbing day.

Repeat for the dull witted, I did not and never threatened to call the Police, only when I thought Mr Thug was going to hit me.

Me and my mates? What are you chunnering on about now? 

I'm simply expressing my opinion after seeing this all develop over the last week, both on the FB group and here. 

Its you that seems to have the virtue signalling sense of self importance with the 'holier than thou' attitude.

Four lads out climbing in lockdown. Hardly the end of the world is it?! 

Like I say, if it was me, I'd have provably yold you to mind your own business and do one too. 

Each to their own.

Twenty odd thousand care homes in the Uk and if they're all having their deaths falsely attributed to Covid like your mum-in-law's place we'd have 120,000  virus deaths in care homes alone. 

Maybe the whole virus thing is a hoax, like the moon landings and the twin towers.

Have you considered the potential future access issues as the land is owned by UU?

I'll be honest with you Steve, I do know a couple of the lads and have spoken to them in some detail about the incident after seeing the FB post and this thread. There was four lads, yes. Only two were climbing. And they had only just started when you turned up. Two pieces of gear placed on a lead, 3m off the ground. One lad was sat watching with a helmet on near the foot of the pitch, with the other at the top of the crag setting up his camera to take shots of his mates.

All four of them specifically take issue with your side of events. in fact they say most of what you say is utter codswallop! They say you came racing down the crag-side, arms flailing, pointing at them, whilst shouting. Raised voice, asking them what the hell they thought they were doing, that you were a BMC member and had climbed there for 20 odd years and you'd put a lot of the routes up. The lad mid pitch abbed off his gear and came down to discuss it with you. He says you were still very angry, voice raised and intermittently raging. When he tried to reason you just kept butting in and wouldn't let him finish what he was saying. He started to de-kit and take his stuff off and walk towards his pack, following the path down, the same one you used, and then asked what he was going to do, hit you? He repeatedly stated he wasn't a violent bloke and that he was just taking his gear off, and you started threatening with calling the police and UU. He admits at that point he told you to 'do one' or 'go on... fu** off'.

And listening to the story, I'm not surprised he lost his temper. A grown bloke being treat and spoken to like some naughty schoolkid is bound to wind even the most placid of folk up (not saying he is placid at all, just saying your reported actions and demeanour could have that effect).

Apparently the lads retrieved the gear, packed their kit up, actually did a trash sweep (picking up old balloons and beer bottles), and left straight after the incident.

Two sides to every tale eh!? 

This debate is starting to go round in circles. If you take a look at the previous posts on this thread you you will see that your arguments have already been raised, and defeated.

Just for clarity, the government and governmental legislators have said that, in these circumstances, you can't climb. The actions of the 4 halfwits at Troy were unlawful. See RogerWebb's posts above - the law is very clear, it really doesn't require much of an explanation.

SteveX's interpretation of the law is correct. Yours is not. 

That said, I suspect that his decision not to climb is less about obeying the law and more about doing what he can to halt the spread of a virus which, in this country alone, has caused 30000 deaths, shrunk the economy by 15%, cost people their health and employment, and left the rest of us stuck indoors.

Or, perhaps, he was able to resist his urge to go climbing because he isn't a selfish dick?

These figures are nothing to do with scare mongering or biased BBC reporting. They've been reported by every available news outlet and their genesis is the scientists and hospitals who have been treating the deceased and the economists whose job it is to worry about the economy. They are supported by the planners and politicians who are trying to control a pandemic which may yet be every bit as damaging to the world economy as The Great Depression. 

In the face of the available evidence, your suggestion that this is nothing more than 'mass media driven scaremongering' is bizarre...the sort of crud I'd expect someone to come out with if he'd be caught climbing at Troy Quarry, knowing full-well that he's not supposed to.

Now you're getting it mate. Now you're getting it! 😉

Believe half of what you read and none of what you see on TV.

How would you feel if one of the Troy Four was a carer at this home?

Say this carer picked up coronavirus from one of the others and took it to work? Good on em you say?

That's a worrying extrapolation. Almost as worrying as the 130,000 austerity deaths one. 

I don't really care. Two ways to treat a virus, herd immunity or vaccinations.

Darwinism. Survival of the fittest.

Been happening on this planet a lot longer than mankind has been about.

What gives us the divine right to life or to halt natural selection. To inhibit evolution?

Rather apt from a work of fiction...

H G Wells. By the toll of a billion deaths man has bought his birthright of the earth, and it is his against all comers; For neither do men live nor die in vain. 

Your views my old China, and you're fully entitled to hold them. What you're not entitled to do is get abusive and swear at folk - that's tantamount to bullying...

plus it makes you sound rather like the OP, given the stories I've heard!

I know the UU catchment area manager for that area, as well as the estates director.

They wouldn't give a hoot. Bigger problems going on in UU at the moment, believe me....

HA outage in October with drinking water treatment plants, all over the NW, not ready or at capacity for re-networking - 4 million homes to keep serving water to while they turn the tap off in the lakes for essential maintenance. Drought planning and mitigation works not complete on time, DWI ombudsman reducing unit prices. Failinv works and over running engineering/construction projects. The list goes on.

4 climbers at a quarry not directly affecting their business wouldn't draw any comments other than a tut-tut and wag of a finger...

I think you'll find the bullying took place at Troy, when your mate went toe-to-toe with SteveX.

You've outdone yourself with your next couple of assertions:

1.) That I am SteveX! Does the real SteveX have anything to say about this, I wonder? Personally, I wouldn't know because I've never met him.

2.) That there's no point in preventing the deaths of the elderly and infirm on the basis of the laws of Social Darwinism and an HG Wells potboiler.

Interestingly, Darwins laws extend to mental aptitude and intelligence just as much as they do to youthful good health and physical vigour. This is why, over countless millennia, hardy but stupid animals died-out, whilst frail but intelligent beasts survived.

In the current context, you could equate this to those of us who are self isolating, and those who are stupid enough to go climbing at Troy (or shopping for bags of compost at B&Q).

My advice to you, therefore, is that you should be careful what you wish for. Under Darwen's laws, you'd have been wiped-out in the first wave! 

Just walked through rawtenstall cemetery,, they are digging even more graves.

Point taken,  , but the wider context, as is always the case. .I assume you are not involved in negotiating with UU on access issues across all the climbing areas which they manage. Pex Hill etc etc. The list is endless.

Maybe just speaking to the BMC access team might give a better overview.

Glad they left.

Well done on doing the litter pick.

Shame they decided to go in the first place.

At least his intervention worked, even if you dispute the detail.

'The Troy Four...

I like that, I can see a campaign, with T Shirts and banners...

Might get one printed...

#letthetroyfourclimb

yes, they will be. People die all the time. Current countrywide death rate is average for this time of year according to the ONS.

Saw it on the news last night, before you question my source...

yet here I am matey.... 

Here I jolly well am! Loving life!

#letthetroyfourclimb

Out of interest what other things should people just walk on by;

People littering.

People letting dogs shit all over the place.

Kids riding bikes on bowling greens.

if you say anything to this, you generally get told to f*ck off.

Your virtue signalling "Apparently the lads retrieved the gear, packed their kit up, actually did a trash sweep (picking up old balloons and beer bottles), and left straight after the incident." is noted.

They are heroes of the common man and I apologise for spoiling their day, the hero of the day, was quite correct to come down of the climb, untie, come right up to me and tell me to f*ck of, in front of my wife. He is like a latter-day Don Whillans and I apologise whole heartedly.

I suppose the best analogy to Troy would be a kids playpark.

Toddlers could go to the park and socially distance. If only a few went. And they didn't want to play on the same swings.

We could hope that people would self- regulate, and to be honest we might find the majority of the population would - as we've seen during the lockdown.

Unfortunately there is a significant minority of self-entitled, ignorant, anti-social pricks who seem to think social responsibility is translated as the states responsibility to provide for them, rather than their responsibility for others.

If toddlers can understand why their playparks are closed, it's just a pity that supposedly grown-up adults can't.

And if you want a police opinion on Troy, I've given mine earlier upthread.

That is obvious.

So if someone found you in trouble for any reason, you'd be happy to be left to die?

Yes, but we evolved intelligence and a conscious ability to reason

A bit confused here - are you saying leave it all to God? Are you advocating a return to the Palaeolithic, no medicine, no technology, no society?

Yes, fiction it is - the Martians don't actually exist. We can thank science for revealing that fact.

Wells was pro-science and was paraphrasing how Man has arrived at his place in time through aeons of evolutioniary processes. Are you suggesting that he would be against antibiotics and medical research? He most certainly wouldn't.

Your assumption is correct, I don't get involved in any of that malarkey, I just know people and know UU's internal structure and priorities.

If it did end up on their desks they'd send some low-key manager out to speak with the police or issue a statement saying something along the lines of 'whilst the area remains open for walkers, we cannot allow climbing at this present time', if that was their stance.

They really wouldn't give two hoots unless it was people swimming in the reservoirs...

You might want to recheck your source.

42900 excess deaths this year (so far), according to ONS and the FT.

https://www.ft.com/content/a26fbf7e-48f8-11ea-aeb3-955839e06441

I love it when people deconstruct posts and try and debunk each point. Its rather interesting to be fair.... 

Can I ask what you do for work? You sound rather intelligent and well-read

I can't re-check it! Well I could watch c4 online I suppose, look for let nights late night news, and see if I have written what the presenter actually said....

But I'm a bit busy today... might have a look later on though  just to satisfy myself...

You can. I stack shelves in a supermarket. Well, a few other things as well like piloting a till when it's busy. Thanks for the compliments.

...which would indicate that Darwinism isn't quite as prevalent today as you've suggested!

Shame about all those who aren't jolly well here, loving life, eh? Those who would be, but for someone-or-others failure to isolate?

You're not very good at this, are you? 

Might be worthwhile, if you have decided to dismiss COVID19 as scaremongering, that you are certain you have a sound basis for your opinion.

Or can we expect to next see you burning down a 5G mast....

ohhhhhhh you're a copper! Figures!!!

So youll likely know the law surrounding the new measures in more detail than the average layman I suppose?

Gotta admit, the actual lawconfused me, and many others may I add, with its loose wording and ambiguity. Even the NPCC had to issue guidance to its own police chiefs didn't they, as it was so vague?

I have a copy somewhere as I was interested to see what constitutes 'reasonable exercise'.

It's been dissected a few times. 

The guidance issued by the NHS, PHE and the Government is stronger than what can actually be enforced by the law.

On this particular thread I'd defer to Rogerwebb for the summary.

The NPCC guidance to officers is to engage, explain and encourage, prior to any enforcement (issuing fixed penalties).

Also published was some CPS guidance on possible interpretations of the phrase "reasonable excuse" which didn't really help much to be honest - as people focussed on that rather than looking at the legislation as a whole, and at the Government guidance as the starting point.

The take home message should be:

Read the government guidance. Do what it says. 

This has never ever been a problem that can be solved by legislation and policing. It is a public health crisis that can be solved by doing our best to follow the guidance issued by the NHS/PHE/Govt.

Swimming in the pond or putting up a tyrolean over that pond is probably more a concern as you say.

And I am sure your local manager would walk away from supporting you if you had had an accident ( pretty remote I know) and it was all over the local press who would in turn be questioning why UU allowed it to happen and turned a blind eye...... you might just see a remarkable change in attitude.

You can. I stack shelves in a supermarket.

Owwww, bless! Are you the bloke who mixes the baked beans in with the rice pudding at Tesco's in Haslingden.

To be honest, I'm not that surprised.

In the space of a few posts you've been; wrong about the law relating to non-essential travel; wrong about the national average death rate (to the tune of 42900), wrong about the current implications and applications of Darwinism, you've based you argument around the highly suspect herd-immunity hypothesis; you've quoted HG Wells as Gospel (aliens!) and you've attempted to defend the indefensible actions of a quartet of morons at Troy Quarry!

Indeed, after earnestly insisting that there is no law inhibiting the activities of rock climbers during the pandemic, you've admitted to OffDuty that you don't really understand what the law says! 

No buddy. I'm no luddite. I love technology, avtually thpibg this on a 5g enabled Samsung galaxy s20+. I'd be rather in the shit if I started burning down the very masts that give me the ability to use it.

Just a point to note,  more or less every single opinion given on here regarding COVID19 has been formed fully, or partially in cases, by what the individuals themselves have seen in various media outlets... and we all know the media manipulate for their own ends.

A government quick to lock down masses and plunge the country into trillions of debt. Locking down millions of people for the safety of a few. Who are still contracting the virus and dying in droves anyway. Why not let the country go about its business, not destroy the economy, not let people lose livelihoods built up over generations, not plunge families existing just above the poverty line to now fall well beneath that line, not wiping billions off savings and pensions, not have mass redundancies due tofailing sectors of industry?

Why not lock down the at-risk? Those susceptible? Those who are infirm? Those who are sick? 

Why not do it the other way around? And stop the untold econimc misery that is coming for the next 5 years while we recover from the lockdown. 

Apart from a few dozen cases the majority of those who are fit and healthy, who have contracted this virus, have recovered fully and get on with their lives. But those figures aren't reported, because the percentage difference between survival/death rates would open peoples eyes.

Scaremongering. At its best. 

Aren't you confusing me with someone else?

I wondered that.

I want to both like and dislike this post

Hi Steve. Some folks are foaming at the mouth. I really must go out for a walk while the sun is out.  Just remember: 'Nils bastardi carborundum'?

Appols - reply amended. I put confess to 'borrowing' your point about the existence of martians!

No I was just curious. Believe its paid quite handsomely that job, so good for you, and as a key worker I'd like to thank you for all you are doing to keep the country running whilst the government regulates and implores society to destroy itself.

I cant see where ive made any assertions to the facts on non essential travel above, apart from my response to our resident police officer friend. So you're wrong on that count.

The numbers were taken from a news report on TV last night, so I can only blame my media source (the same media you're no doubt using to keep informed - what does that then tell you 😲).

Highly suspect herd immunity hypothesis? Highly suspect? Whats the worst that could happen? We catch it once, don't build up any resistance whatsoever and catch it again?! I'm happy to take that chance!

I hardly quoted Wells as gospel did I!? Really!!!? Do you always base facts on your own worked opinions? Its quite an apt statement given the current status of the whole pandemic!

Last point, which you edited in, I actually state that its rather confusing due to the ambiguity of the wording. Its easy for anyone to interpret the legislation for their own ends - the exact reason the NPCC had to issue guidance to chief police officers!

Anyway mate, I've got to get going, throwing a few lines up at Witches Quarry this afternoon. Fancy a climb!? 

Click both thumbs then brother!!!!

Go on, be a devil!!! 👍👎

That`s not even funny as its one of the crags in Lancashire with the most shaky access.

Get a life man. Twas tongue in cheek. 

I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt! But the lads seem right! youre coming across as an uptight, highly strung, angry man. 

To me anyway....

You enjoy.
I actually left this thread alone, but got a bollocking for starting something and not finishing it, so I came back, but I think will leave it alone now.

Why result to personal insults? You have probably lost alot of supporters by that, makes you sound like a bully.

Stick to your  political conspiracy theorys.

I appreciate the media bias on things to an extent. That's why it's worth producing the stats that back up your opinion, whether that be the ONS and FT versus "I heard it on the news".

As regards those  condemning the lockdown measures, there appears to be a combination of condemnation by hindsight, as well as conclusions that appear to be pretty circular in nature - "Well nobody died when we took all those measures, so we shouldn't have taken those measures...."

The data when this started was something like, if unchecked 60-80% if the country infected with a fatality rate of around 1%

The measure had to be designed around that. Whether we took sufficient measures sufficiently quickly can be argued, it it seems pretty dumb to suggest we somehow should have known "it wasn't that dangerous" (a position I don't agree with).

Similarly to suggest that, having taken these measures ,lots of people have died anyway, so we should have carried on as  normal, dismissing the projected deaths we expected seems equally unfair/dumb. It was 500,000 deaths which would have overwhelmed the NHS and caused a knock on effect on other deaths.  This had been seen in other countries and we needed to avoid it. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-51698000

In relation to the fact that fit and healthy people don't die, I don't know the data for that. I have heard that long term effects may be significant for some. In part there is a strong case that social distancing, isolation, good sanitising mean that any exposure to the virus is very low - so healthy people have plenty of time to generate an effective immune response. Who knows what would have happened if we had continued "as normal" and rather than get infected from 20 mins pushing a trolley round a supermarket, it was 8 hours chatting to and sitting next to infected Pete in the office.

And despite the suggestions of Darwinism and survival of the fittest. We don't abandon our weakest on hillsides, and these views often come with an implicit belief that it is someone's own fault that they have got some underlying illness. Pretty arrogant really.

Thats your version of events though stevie baby. They say otherwise. It was you that started the aggression. Ranting and raving like you owned the place, not letting them get a word in edgeways whilst gesticulating wildly and stating you had put first lines up. First lines up? I'm gonna check that today. 

Littering, no have a word. I think its reprehensible. Dog shit, its biodegradable, rather leave it than bag it and throw the bag in a bush/hedge like most do. Riding bikes on bowling greens, most are walled or fenced off now aren't they? 

I'll pass on your thanks to the guys for the work they did to clear your regular troy goers shit and rubbish. I'm sure they'll appreciate your kind words buddy. 

agreed and edited. I apologise for that, certainly not like me. Maybe the discussion got to me, or it might be the two cans of kestrel superstrength. I don't usually drink until 11am. Started early today...

10/10 for the apology.

I knrw the drinking was looked down on.... its all I have to do with my time at present.... apart from defend friends on here and dream up conspiracy theories that is. 

Stay safe... its a jungle out there... 

And I do know this, its my local crag, l I live ten minutes away...

Im trying to figure out who you are, im an LCCC member myself. I see the facebook thread got deleted rapido!

You'll see him around...

🤣🤣 you certainly will. I get about, mainly Wales, Scotland and the lakes though....

Not much point apologising to a bloke then making snide comments about him a couple of hours later behind his back on a different thread where  he'd had no input at all.

After reading this thread I realised that there are a number of people that still dont get it. The reason for the lockdown was to slow the progress of the disease through the population so that the health services were not overwhelmed and collapsed in chaos. This happened throughout most of the world where the disease reared its head. In some places the lockdown was harsher than in this country probably why they have had fewer deaths. The lockdown was on the advice of the scientific experts but hey ho what do real experts know when we have all the armchair experts on facebook, youtube and even UKC telling us to ignore the media and mainstream tv because they really know the 'truth'. I think most of us with a reasonable amount of intelligence have been following the government guidelines which are plastered everywhere and realise why they are in place. 

I was apologising for swearing and making personal insults, not for saying he's a jobsworth, Walter Mitty type whose signal virtuing knows no bounds. 

I stand by that!

I was wrong to swear, I was wrong to use personal insults, but my opinion on his actions and my thoughts on his alleged behaviour at the cragside, haven't changed! 

Have a wonderful day in the sunshine sir! Tis a beautiful one, for sure!!!

Economic catastrophe, the worst for 300 years. 

My friends mum died two weeks ago, she had heart problems. She actually died of heart failure. Despite two COVID19 tests returning negative results, the doctors recorded cause of death as, yep you guessed it, COVID19.

Despite protestations from the family regarding the negative results, they refused to amend the death certificate.

This is one of 7 cases I know in my area alone. One small corner of East Lancashire. 

So go on with your validation of an overzealous, economy killing and life destroying set of restrictions based on a few thousand deaths. 

The government have royally f*cked up on this one I'm afraid, and we will be feeling the the repercussions for the next decade...

Fair point.

Clearly in the UK what's going on is a conspiracy to artificially inflate the COVID19 deaths to unnecessarily extend the lockdown whilst actually the 43,000 excess deaths already this year are just nonsense.

The more people we allow to carry on climbing and enjoying their normal leisure activity in quarries, the better for the economy, as obviously mixing with our mates on a day off, doing an activity that doesn't involve contributing to the economy, gets the British economy going again...

It's obvious the first step of relaxing the lockdown will be to ensure we can spend our leisure time doing whatever we want with whoever we want....

Or something.

So, almost every scientist and expert employed by almost every government in almost every country affected by CV-19 around the world have advised a regimen of social distancing and isolation in order to prevent the pandemic turning into world-changing, economic and social catastrophe (rather that 'just' an economic and social catastrophe)...and some bloke from Haslingden with, almost certainly, no experience in the field of virology or contagion outside of what he's read in the Daily Mail, thinks he knows better! 

Oh, and the NHS is assisting them by cooking the figures, for some arcane reason-or-other.

I honestly find it fascinating that you think you're right, despite having been demonstrably wrong about almost everything you've posted on this thread alone. You actually believe that you are right and everyone else is wrong!

It's difficult to reach a diagnoses, with only a few hundred words of waffle to go off, but I'm going to take a punt on: Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

I'd have built myself a massive wooden horse, climbed inside it, and approached the miscreants from within cover.

Good call. I'd have considered launching a thousand ships, but I'm not sure I could have fitted them all in the pond.

All you and Darren need now is a girl called Helen and you have a fully formed, cannot fail, plan.

I hardly think this thread is comparable to Homer, other than by it's epic length!

Perhaps the Monty Python / Trojan Rabbit approach would be more appropriate?

Steve, I would have just walked on by and minded my own business.

This thread is almost as long as the siege of Troy. If only they'd had the interweb back then they could have settled it a lot more easily with a frank and open discussion.

There wouldn't have been any need to steal Helen in the first place...Paris would have been able to find a perfectly acceptable alternative on Tinder. 

Has anyone mentioned Hitler yet?  If not, it's overdue.  Especially with it being VE day.

T.

I wondered when he'd show up. Anyone for Genghis Khan?

Or a possible Pol Pot, perhaps?

T.

Mussolini, especially with all the arm waving and gesticulating.

I bet he's never been accused of that before.

Sheep

So your main beef about the lockdown is because your friends mothers death was recorded as Covid 19 and you ' know'  of 7 other cases which were wrongly recorded. Are you implying that the Health Professionals are lying and that they are in some sort of conspiracy to extend the lockdown. What would be the point of that  - you seem to be descending into the murky world of conspiracy theories .

As for your support of herd immunity and rather flippant use of the word Darwinism I presume you mean his Theory of Evolution and the often quoted 'survival of the fittest'. Evolution is basically about the survival of your genes and one of the best ways for an individual to ensure he/she survives in this pandemic is to self isolate- oh hang on thats called lockdown.

What really gets up my nose about your posts is your thoughtless rubbishing of lockdown and hence the disrespecting of the Health Professionals many of whom have lost their lives trying to save others lives.

Maybe that's why we have over 30,000 deaths from it and a former socialist country called Czech Republic has 280.

I mention online dating. You mention sheep. 

Only in Haslingden, eh!?

I'd be interested to know why you feel the doctors are misrepresenting the CV-19 fatality figures in your locality, by the way.

Not much to do at the moment...should brighten-up an otherwise dull day..

They're sheeple, mate, sheeple

Have you, or anyone else, been climbing at Troy today?
Marvelous day for it!

Ooooooohhhh! I sense a conspiracy theory! Come on, let's hear it!

5G? A Chinese chemical weapons plant? The illuminati? Anti-vaxers?

I love these guys!

Dear Walrus

I know a climber from  Haslingden called Christopher, unstable chap, often violent and drinks lots of alcohol and survives  on mackerel stew and brown sauce.

Sounds like him ? 

Mr Tatlock 

Last I heard, he'd detained by the Spanish authorities for poisoning the local cat population.

Unfortunately not. I was round at a friend's house enjoying a bbq and a few beers. Don't want to incur any more wrath from those who think they own the place... 

Might get over there next weekend if the weathers good...

It is truly remarkable that you manage to come across as such as tit in so few words. 

Its almost Shakesperean!

Why thank you kind sir. I appreciate your honesty and opinion. 

Have a great day. 

The best known Shakespearean tits I can think of belonged to Lady Macbeth.

Alas, I've never seen them...I'm not much of a theatre goer, and I don't think I could inflict an evening of dour Shakesperean tedium on myself even if reward is a ripe pair of Bristols at the end of it!

Top Tip: If you're an aficionado of huge, low rent, desiccated, droopy tits (of the type you may occasionally encounter if you spend your free time flirting with drunken females in kebab shops), might I suggest a trip down to Troy next weekend? You're likely to spot a pair of them climbing the quarry walls!