/ Stanage and North Lees Consultation

robert-hutton 31 Jan 2020

A consultation is currently open to anybody who wants a say on the future of the Stanage and North Lees Estate at 

https://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/looking-after/about-us/have-your-say/consultations

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Offwidth 31 Jan 2020
In reply to robert-hutton:

My main concern is none of the three options look sensible (albeit some parts of some options do). The PDNP seem to have focusssed entirely on moneterising assets, rather than look more holistically at what the estate should be for (in National Park ethos terms) and those (very similar to the NP ethos)  conditions made when the estate was sold to the PDNP,  for what was a 'peppercorn' price (effectively just reimbursing the cost of some repairs made just before the sale). 

The BMC say they intend to express similar concerns direct to the PDNP but that climbers may need to be prepared to campaign on the issue if there is no satisfactory movement.

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KrisNash 31 Jan 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

Fully agree - its one of those politician choices - which of your children would you like to sacrifice sir... 

Survey talks about having two purposes, but then gives options only focused on making money. 

Its clear that PDNP thinks North Lees is a magic money tree to dig them out of their wider funding problems 

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Offwidth 13 Feb 2020
In reply to KrisNash:

The BMC position is now online and contributions to the consultation are encouraged.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/the-future-of-stanage-have-your-say

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NBR 15 Feb 2020
In reply to robert-hutton:

I understand the need for funding to do what they do but far to much talk of selling off or leasing to private organisations, seems to put at risk what makes the place special.

As someone who has visited the NL campsite on and off for well over 20 years I'd hate to see it get too 'nice'.

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Neil Williams 16 Feb 2020
In reply to NBR:

I see your point about "too nice", but equally I think the bog block could stand a bit of improvement, I'm also not opposed to parking charges at all car parks to be honest, I don't see why I should not pay for the use of a piece of land on which to park my car, another upside of that may also be it being easier to get into the Popular End car park if you want to climb at that end rather than people choosing it simply because it's free.

I think of the three I'd definitely go option 1.  I definitely wouldn't want things outsourcing.

One thing I'd add is that I'd love to see the Stanage Sticker scheme back in some form, even at a higher price.

Edit: the actual consultation allows fairly granular response and doesn't force you wholly into one option except at the end.

Post edited at 20:43
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Offwidth 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

The BMC Peak Area and the Stanage Forum supported re-starting the Stanage sticker. Parking does need to be sorted out as on every busy weekend already lines of cars are blocking the highway by being partly parked on verges, many just to avoid paying.

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Neil Williams 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

There will also be an element of "because they didn't have change" if the meters are still cash only.  They really need to install card acceptance capability at any parking meters or support one of the apps e.g. RingGo etc.

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Offwidth 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

A terrible excuse... it's hardly inconvenient to keep coins in a car just in case. The biggest factor stopping paying in my experience is vandalised machines, so a mobile payment option is always handy.

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ianstevens 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

I’d disagree entirely. As a millennial I never have any cash, and actively hate having to use it - therefore I have no loose change and paying for the plantation car park with cash is a massive PITA as I need to withdraw cash (no machine in Hathersage anymore either IIRC) and buy something to get change for the machine. Faff, faff and more faff. Nothing against paying at all, but hate having to go through the multiple stages of farce to do so.

As for the parking permit, why on earth can it not be purchased online. No, you need to either go into a visitor centre (again, faff) or send a cheque, whatever the hell that is*. PDNP really don’t make it easy.

*i am fully aware what a cheque is but despite being nearly 30 have never had a cheque book nor have the desire to get one

Post edited at 13:11
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Neil Williams 17 Feb 2020
In reply to ianstevens:

I'm with you and would be almost tempted to suggest that they could do away with cash acceptance entirely (then there'd be no thefts from the machines and far less vandalism, and the machines would be cheaper too).  Precisely how many drivers do not have any kind of debit card?  If a London C-charge or Dartford Bridge style approach was used (where you could pay for an all day ticket at any time within that 24 hour period, midnight to midnight), you could pay cash in a shop in Hathersage (e.g. one with a PayPoint terminal) on the way there or the way home home if you really wanted to.  Or on your phone, or on a website, or whatever.

A number of smaller car parks in the Lakes are now like that.

Post edited at 14:16
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bigbobbyking 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

Think they do something like that with some Forestry commission car parks in places like Whinlatter. Reads your number plate in and out so you don't have to guess how much time to buy which is handy.

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ianstevens 17 Feb 2020
In reply to bigbobbyking:

Yeah, the one at Coed y Brenin (Dolgellau) is the same too - excellent system IMO. Combined with what Neil suggests would make for a useable and foolproof system (ie you can’t not pay). Then expand the plantation car park and give the verges the roaches treatment...

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Neil Williams 17 Feb 2020
In reply to ianstevens:

Yeah, agreed.  I don't get why people so massively object to paying for parking, I don't object to it at all, I am occupying a piece of land with my car that can't then be used for another purpose, and it'd be better for the environment were my car not there anyway.  The only thing that annoys me is the faff of requiring an arbitrary number of coins, which may or may not include £2 and old 50ps and whatever the poorly maintained machine won't take.  Provide a convenient non-cash means of payment and I'm quite happy to cough up, particularly as the money goes to the National Park anyway, it's not like it's fattening some shareholder's pockets up.

If I went for a day at a wall instead it'd cost me far more than the price of parking at Stanage is ever likely to be.

I don't even mind the tenner at Pen Y Pass, it's a limited resource so makes sense to get groups to pool cars, i.e. park most at the bottom and drive full cars up.  The thing I don't like about that is purely that the last time I parked there you required it all in coins.  (Edit: apparently it now takes card, good.)

Post edited at 14:52
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bigbobbyking 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

> I don't even mind the tenner at Pen Y Pass, it's a limited resource so makes sense to get groups to pool cars, i.e. park most at the bottom and drive full cars up.  The thing I don't like about that is purely that the last time I parked there you required it all in coins. 

Parked there a few weeks ago and you'll be glad to hear it takes contactless! Hooray!

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Simon Caldwell 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Precisely how many drivers do not have any kind of debit card? 

I have one of course, but since the advent of contactless, losing it could prove very costly so I don't take it with me when climbing.

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spidermonkey09 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

I haven't had any cash in my wallet since Christmas. Parking meters without a card payment facility are useless and doomed to fail. 

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spidermonkey09 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

I don't really get this. theres a 30 limit on contactless transactions and the real risk is someone buying a load of stuff online. The frequency with which I use my card and the ease of freezing it via mobile banking apps is such that really the risk is minimal.

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Simon Caldwell 17 Feb 2020
In reply to spidermonkey09:

I never took it climbing pre-contactless either ;-)

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ianstevens 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

> > Precisely how many drivers do not have any kind of debit card? 

> I have one of course, but since the advent of contactless, losing it could prove very costly so I don't take it with me when climbing.

Lose it, cancel it. Any bank should refund contactless transactions made between the point you lost it and point you declared. Some banks even let you do this via the app.

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ianstevens 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Yeah, agreed.  I don't get why people so massively object to paying for parking, I don't object to it at all, I am occupying a piece of land with my car that can't then be used for another purpose, and it'd be better for the environment were my car not there anyway.  The only thing that annoys me is the faff of requiring an arbitrary number of coins, which may or may not include £2 and old 50ps and whatever the poorly maintained machine won't take.  Provide a convenient non-cash means of payment and I'm quite happy to cough up, particularly as the money goes to the National Park anyway, it's not like it's fattening some shareholder's pockets up.

> If I went for a day at a wall instead it'd cost me far more than the price of parking at Stanage is ever likely to be.

> I don't even mind the tenner at Pen Y Pass, it's a limited resource so makes sense to get groups to pool cars, i.e. park most at the bottom and drive full cars up.  The thing I don't like about that is purely that the last time I parked there you required it all in coins.  (Edit: apparently it now takes card, good.)

Entirely agree. I do mind the parking at Pen y Pass for other reasons (should be abolished and turned into a bus stop only, but that's another debate...).

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ChrisBrooke 17 Feb 2020
In reply to ianstevens:

I'd like to see the Plantation car park take cards/contactless. It works well at Surprise View most of the time. I can go out and all I need to remember is to have my phone with me (which is pretty much 100% of the time) or even just my watch on (most of the time) to be able to pay. 

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Neil Williams 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

> I have one of course, but since the advent of contactless, losing it could prove very costly

No, it couldn't for two reasons.

1. Most banks only allow 6 contactless transactions before requiring the PIN.  So the absolute maximum that can be charged is £180 (6 x £30).

2. If you report the theft to your bank within a reasonable timescale, your bank will refund these transactions and charge it back to the retailer, that's the only basis on which contactless transactions became acceptable as a thing.

So, those being the case, it's of significantly lower risk than a wallet with cash in it, where if the cash is nicked you've lost it.

Post edited at 17:06
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Offwidth 17 Feb 2020
In reply to ianstevens:

I sympathise with your frustrations but even Millenials are allowed to obtain cash... what's the big problem with getting a few tenner's worth of loose change to keep in the car, in case of emergency, especially if heading to the Plantation regularly. Having some loose change is also a bonus in the wilds if you lose or damage your card or even if someone say offers to sell you their spare milk at a campsite or the card machine in the only open shop for miles goes down (as they do occasionally). Turning something designed for convenience into reliance is just dumb. The same usually applies to choosing not to  have a chequebook.. if you don't get charged to have one, sometimes it's useful.

Post edited at 17:38
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Neil Williams 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

Selling spare milk seems a bit petty.  If I had some unopened, I'd take it home, if it was opened I would give it away.

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Offwidth 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

Good for you.. not eveyone is like that though. Equally I've used spare cash to pay for a climbing stranger to park as they didnt have enough coins for the machine. I'm amazed people don't carry spare change in their car and risk being inconvenienced.

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Neil Williams 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

The main reason I don't is because I almost never need to.  These days most car parks accept card or app/phone payment.

The only place I pay by cash these days is the local shop because it has a £10 minimum (which I wish they'd just get rid of and put a few pence on prices to cover the cost) and the chippy because it doesn't do card at all (same).

Post edited at 19:30
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brianjcooper 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

> Good for you.. not eveyone is like that though. Equally I've used spare cash to pay for a climbing stranger to park as they didnt have enough coins for the machine. I'm amazed people don't carry spare change in their car and risk being inconvenienced.

I totally agree. As an example. I was in a car park in N.Wales when I realised I didn't have my cards. Several generous people offered sufficient change to save the day. Total stars!!!

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ianstevens 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

> I sympathise with your frustrations but even Millenials are allowed to obtain cash... what's the big problem with getting a few tenner's worth of loose change to keep in the car, in case of emergency, especially if heading to the Plantation regularly.

I'm not saying it's an insurmountable issue at all, just I would much, much rather not use cash. 

Having some loose change is also a bonus in the wilds if you lose or damage your card or even if someone say offers to sell you their spare milk at a campsite or the card machine in the only open shop for miles goes down (as they do occasionally).

I don't drink milk so not a problem ;) And as a charitable soul who has previously given loads of stuff to others when leaving campsites, I'd hope they would do the same! If my card gets damaged (how? I take care of it) then I can use my phone to pay, no problem. I'll let you have the card machine goes down one, was on the business end of that in a cafe I worked in and it caused chaos.

Turning something designed for convenience into reliance is just dumb.

Really? Cars are for convenience. Trains are for convenience. Mains electric and water are convenience. They do down and chaos seems to be the standard state of society... my point here is that we come to rely on things that were originally for convenience, which, yes, I have done with bank cards.

The same usually applies to choosing not to  have a chequebook.. if you don't get charged to have one, sometimes it's useful.

I've never needed to write one in my entire life...

But back to the point at hand - it would be nice to have the option to pay for parking at Stanage by card. Can keep the cash mechanism too, I'm not saying we should abolish it, was rather trying to illustrate how for some cash isn't really ever in use.

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fred99 18 Feb 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

> (which I wish they'd just get rid of and put a few pence on prices to cover the cost) and the chippy because it doesn't do card at all (same).

So why should the rest of us have inflated bills just because you're lazy ?

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Neil Williams 18 Feb 2020
In reply to fred99:

> So why should the rest of us have inflated bills just because you're lazy ?

If cash acceptance ceased entirely the overall cost to businesses would be reduced massively (the trouble with cash is that if you accept it at all you get hit with all the costs - security, transport, bank fees etc).  So actually that is the other way round.

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Simon Caldwell 18 Feb 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

> 1. Most banks only allow 6 contactless transactions before requiring the PIN

I don't remember ever being asked for a PIN (in this country) for values under £30 since I started using contactless.

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deepsoup 18 Feb 2020
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Perhaps because you use your PIN regularly for other transactions.  If you didn't, every once in a while you would find a contactless transaction gets declined and you're prompted to put the card in and use the PIN instead.

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deepsoup 18 Feb 2020
In reply to ChrisBrooke:

> I'd like to see the Plantation car park take cards/contactless. It works well at Surprise View most of the time.

That's not my experience of the Surprise View ticket machine, though I've not used it recently.  Last time I tried to use a card there I just gave up in the end.  I don't think going contactless at the Plantation would be very reliable, trivially easy, nor particularly cheap.

Down the road at Baslow the (Derbyshire Dales council) P&D machine that was upgraded to accept cards & contactless a fair while ago has been partially out of order and taking cash only for months now.

It was unforgivably stupid and short sighted of the PDNPA to unilaterally kill off the "Stand Up For Stanage" sticker scheme imo.

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gravy 18 Feb 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

The surprise view parking machine has /never/ worked in my experience the one at Plantation does sometimes but takes real money which is getting to be a pain in the arse.

The SU4S were very good and it was stupid to kill off the scheme

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gravy 18 Feb 2020
In reply to robert-hutton:

Is "consultation" has been carefully designed not to elicit opinions or ideas but to provide ammunition for what they plan to do anyway by giving it a fig-leaf of public consultation. Either that or it was designed by idiots (potentially both).

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Neil Williams 18 Feb 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

> Perhaps because you use your PIN regularly for other transactions.  If you didn't, every once in a while you would find a contactless transaction gets declined and you're prompted to put the card in and use the PIN instead.

It's also quite a recent change to fix it at 5/6 (I can't remember) though most banks would ask for the PIN periodically anyway.  You are correct that any use of the PIN at all (be it a cash machine or for a transaction over £30) resets the clock, so if you use the same card for varied transactions you may well never hit it.

But regardless, if you report contactless fraud you WILL be refunded (and the retailer charged back, the banks aren't being charities here) - that's the whole basis for it.

Post edited at 11:42
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bigbobbyking 18 Feb 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

> But regardless, if you report contactless fraud you WILL be refunded (and the retailer charged back, the banks aren't being charities here) - that's the whole basis for it.

Bit of an aside: are retailers on the hook for contactless fraud? For chip&pin if fraud is reported it is the bank liable http://www.theukcardsassociation.org.uk/faqs/
No mention of contactless here, but I'd be surprised if there was a liability shift in chip&pin to contactless. This from Barclay card suggests contactless and chip&pin have the same liability position https://www.barclaycard.co.uk/business/accepting-payments/learn-about-taking-payments/beginners-guide-preventing-fraud

I know that for online or other 'card not present' transactions these are generally done with retailer liability for fraud (although the sands are shifting somewhat with PSD2). 

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toad 18 Feb 2020
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

My most recent bank comms was that they have changed their policy re contactless and as a result I can expect to have to enter my pin more frequently in future. 

> > 1. Most banks only allow 6 contactless transactions before requiring the PIN

> I don't remember ever being asked for a PIN (in this country) for values under £30 since I started using contactless.

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Neil Williams 18 Feb 2020
In reply to bigbobbyking:

It seems I may be out of date on this, this site (which you quote):

https://www.barclaycard.co.uk/business/accepting-payments/learn-about-taking-payments/beginners-guide-preventing-fraud

suggests bank liability.  Which might be why they've tightened up on it!

Either way, if you report it you'll be refunded, the risk is therefore infinitessimally smaller than carrying cash.

Post edited at 14:03
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Offwidth 19 Feb 2020
Neil Williams 19 Feb 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

I saw that and thought it would be better to change things so everyone can have a debit card of some sort regardless of circumstances, e.g. enhancement of basic bank accounts or fee-free pre-paid type cards for those in need.  I suspect the anti-cash Scandinavian countries are going that way.

That probably just leaves begging, but I don't give to beggars anyway (not least because many aren't actually homeless), I prefer to donate to homelessness charities as I feel that leads to better use of the money than just funding that person's next can of beer.  As you might expect, I make such donations by debit card or BACS.

Post edited at 11:21
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Offwidth 19 Feb 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

That reality of reliance on cash isn't going to change soon despite your utopian ideas. For the moment I'd prefer we have payment methods (and free parking for early birds) that focus on the poorer in society rather than just pandering to middle class millenials with their first world problem of not wanting to carry change in their car. It matches a real problem about Stanage..how to best maintain access for all, not just the wealthy. 

Post edited at 12:29
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galpinos 19 Feb 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

> ..how to best maintain access for all, not just the wealthy. 

Is there a bus service there? There used to be a summer bus service from Sheffield when I was at Uni. Does that still run?

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Offwidth 19 Feb 2020
In reply to galpinos:

With a lot of walking.

https://moovitapp.com/index/en-gb/public_transportation-Stanage_Edge-Yorkshire-site_51591927-2109

There was a Stanage bus once but the service ended as it wasn't popular. I guess lots of people struggling to get by are forced to have a cheap car.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/stanage-bus-starts-up

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galpinos 19 Feb 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

Not ideal! When the summer bus wasn't running, we used to walk to Bents Green and hitch from there. Looks like that is still the best option if a car is beyond your financial means.

(Or get on your bike, ala Young Mr Pope)

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Neil Williams 19 Feb 2020
In reply to galpinos:

> Is there a bus service there? There used to be a summer bus service from Sheffield when I was at Uni. Does that still run?

It's about 2.5km by footpaths (longer by road) from Hathersage station.  A lot of people don't realise that, but for climbing and hiking purposes it's more accessible to non-drivers than most places.

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galpinos 19 Feb 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

How's a boulderer, on those spindly legs and carrying the essential three giant pads strapped together and camera equipment for the all important documenting of "the send", going to manage 2.5km up that hill. Madness!

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Simon Caldwell 19 Feb 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

Depends where you're going from. For me it would mean the earliest I could get to the crag on a Sunday would be about noon and that means leaving the house at 7am. By car it's 90 minutes.

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Neil Williams 19 Feb 2020
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

> Depends where you're going from. For me it would mean the earliest I could get to the crag on a Sunday would be about noon and that means leaving the house at 7am. By car it's 90 minutes.

Which is fine (and the same is true for me), but in that case pay for parking as part of that convenience.  And if you can afford the fuel for 90 minutes' drive for a leisure activity, you probably aren't in the economic class of people who aren't going to have a debit card.

Indeed, I would venture that the percentage of people who own a car but not a debit card is tiny, certainly well below 1% of drivers.  People who don't have a bank card tend to be at the very poor end of society - often they walk, cycle or go by bus (train even being out of their price range), they aren't car owners.

Some may *prefer* to use cash, but that is a very, very different matter.  But anyway, I've suggested above a mechanism by which cash could still be accepted for parking at Stanage for the very small number of people that affects.

Post edited at 14:36
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Offwidth 19 Feb 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

You are out of touch... a car or van is a neccesity for some who struggle with their finances, for family or work. If they happen to love climbing, the cheapest way to get to a local crag is with a full vehicle of like-minded people splitting fuel costs. Being forced by circumstance into a mainly cash driven life doesn't preclude owning a debit card hardly ever used, but when carrying debt using it can be expensive. If people are struggling they won't be paying for parking, which is why I think some always needs to be free.

Post edited at 16:03
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deepsoup 19 Feb 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

Good lord man, just carry a few pound coins in the car.  That way if you park at the Popular End you could even go crazy and drop a quid in the honesty box.

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Simon Caldwell 19 Feb 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

The fuel for the 90 minute drive is significantly cheaper than the train fare would be, even if I travel alone.

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toad 19 Feb 2020
In reply to robert-hutton:

Dear God, it doesn't say anything good about climbers when a discussion about the future of one of the most important landscapes in the peak district becomes mired in bickering about how to pay for your car parking

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fred99 10:51 Fri
In reply to galpinos:

> How's a boulderer, on those spindly legs and carrying the essential three giant pads strapped together and camera equipment for the all important documenting of "the send", going to manage 2.5km up that hill. Madness!


How's a boulderer going to be allowed on the bus in the first place, carrying even a single giant pad ?

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