UKH

I've been using my increased spare time to take the opportunity to read some of the current articles/discussions on belaying techniques. Now, I'm very old school, so have patience with me.

I understand the concept of a 'Shelf' and a 'Jesus Piece', but where are these names from?

What is a 'Banshee Belay'?

In the past, when tying off the rope at my harness from a belay piece out of reach I usually pull a bight through the tie in loop and tie two half hitches in it to secure it, with  big tail. It's quicker and less bulky, especially using two ropes. Advice suggests that you need to tie a fugure of eight and then finish off with one half hitch. Comments please?

Finally, I've seen a rig for a top rope using a length of semi-static rigging rope with two alpine butterflies, two krabs. It then says that this has built in redundancy if one of the arms of rope to the belay is cut. Surely, rigging the top rope off a single figure of 8 or 9 still gives redundancy if one arm is cut?

Thanks in anticipation

* america is source of terms

* see david coleys excellent website for the banshee belay (https://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/6TheBelay.htm  section 12   in brief  2 bolts where 1 used as main other is backup - ie not equalised)

* I use two half hitches as well - prefer it to f08 but personal pref 

* true but if the fo8/9  bight loop fails - i know what's the chances !

The banshee belay is due to David Coley; you'll have to ask him where that term came from.

The "shelf" refers to a location above the figure-eight powerpoint of a cordelette.  By clipping a carabiner through an appropriate set of strands, the anchor gains an extra location for attaching things.

The "Jesus piece" was coined by John Long in one of his anchor books.  It was meant to denote a first piece placed after leaving the stance that would protect the stance from a factor-2 fall.  Long says that the term comes from helicopter mechanics, who referred to a certain critical nut in the rotor assembly as the "Jesus nut."  The terminology is meant to suggest an imminent meeting with Jesus if the item in question fails.

Maybe I'm stuck in the mud but I still use that method as its quick and gets the length exactly right with no need for adjustment, and often use the tail + slings to clip to another anchor. If not enough rope and the tail is short I clip its bight back to another rope. Can't see much advantage to the other method. 

I suppose the bight  doesn't absorb as much shock as hitching the rope directly to the anchor (but lack of stretch might occasionally be an advantage with a narrow belay ledge and a distant anchor).

I use that method as well and, as Oldie says he does, use the tail sometimes to connect to another anchor/belay.  Nothing wrong with that method as far as I can see.

Likewise.

When I started climbing in the late 60's it was the standard method illustrated in the text books.

Did not need any extra karabiners and also usable with the rope tied round your waist.

I still it if getting to a stance with bugger all gear left.

My preferred tie in on multi pitch trad, is two high points clipped to each half rope, reverse to stance , tie the two ropes together with an monster overhand, clip one tail to my rope loop, the other to a third near point . Very quick, easy to get right first time or adjust if needed.

Thanks for the information and the confirmation that i've not been doing anything wrong all of these years.

Couple of half hitches works for me.   More than adequate, which is enough.   As for the two alpine butterflies, a clove hitch is far simpler and readily adjustable.

This is what I've been doing for 30+ years.  http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/1/176681-largest_34116.jpg  The "redirection point" is an optional addition I use only infrequently; usually there is just a bit of slack there.  The "butterfly knot power point" gives a place to hang a guide plate if you like that type of belay for the second.  It also means the belayer can untie and walk away from the anchor without the anchor disassembling, which is of theoretical and very occasionally practical interest.  David Coley calls this the DIL belay.

America.
A crap belay.
You're not dead yet, are you?
Probably. You tell me.

- Answers in the form of a found poem

Unlike in sailing, where just about anything has a name, in climbing much of what we do doesn't have a name, or is called different things in different countries. This is problematic to anyone writing about the subject, so in the book I had to invent a few terms, as others had done in the past for direct and indirect belay for example, or Jesus piece.

The Banshee belay is common in Europe on longer routes. It just means linking the two pieces (normally bolts) in series, rather than in parallel. It is very quick, and would normally be used with a direct belay. This can be done is various ways (as always, please see multipitchclimbing.com), for example big locker on bolt 1, clove, another on bolt 2, clove, hang reverso from first locker. Or if you don't like the reverso's locker being clipped metal-to-metal, use a butterfly rather than a clove. Like most things in the book, I timed this. It is normally sub 7 seconds for the whole thing. One can do much the same with a sling, in which case carry the carabiners and reverso on the sling, all ready to go. Some climbing equipment companies make slings just for this purpose, one even has a buckle to tighten the sling between the bolts.

The potential disadvantage is that if the the first bolt blows, you are likely to fall a little way (the distance between the bolts). And this is why a Banshee is normally used as a direct belay. If it was an indirect, you might let go in such a fall, with an direct the force would not be on you, and the device would probably lock anyhow.

This why I somewhat disagree when people say one needs a lot of tools in the tool box, and leave it at that. I think in climbing, yes you need the tools, but you also need a variety of systems (built of tools). Tool A might be good when using Tool B, but not with Tool C. I possibly haven't helped here, in that the website was holds the tools, but the book the systems. The website is free (hence gets used a lot), the book 6 quid (hence used a lot less - that's climbers for you).

The term Banshee belay comes from the reactions of some of my climbing partners when then they have found themselves hanging from one.

A neat example of a Banshee with a trad belay, and which does not extend if a piece blows is the Yosemite belay (not my term). In the UK most of our belays are from several pieces in several different cracks. In places like Yosemite and other granite areas, there might just be one vertical crack, with the nearest next crack 50m away. So put the first cam in, clove, reach up higher and place the second, clove, hang the reverso off the first cam. Job done, quick and no spaghetti.

Sorry for the long post, but I'm in bed with nothing else to do, have a headache, a very sore throat, feel exhausted. Hum.....