Should >E5 'Redpoint' count as a 'recent top ascent'?

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 Stanners 28 Feb 2023

Considering the following points, why are we celebrating redpoints of traditional routes by including them in the UKC 'recent top ascents page'? 

. the grade people climb is what they can onsight

. trad routes are graded for the onsight

. a route has not had a proper first ascent until it has been onsighted 

. Someone scraping their way up an HVS onsight covered in cake crumbs is far more impressive than someone practicing to death an E5 high on amino acid supplements 

(I'm not saying we should never redpoint a trad route, it can be a bit of fun, it allows enjoyable climbing on routes you would otherwise be unable to do... but being classed as 'a recent top ascent' is like doing a magic trick and trying to convince people you're a real wizard) On a final note...

> Should we be limiting 'redpoints' to esoteric unpopular death routes as to not spoil the rock for onsight climbers more capable than ourselves? (for example, there's some lovely big ***E7's in pembroke I've considered headpointing, but I'd be polishing up incredible climbs that, if I ate less cake, trained hard and climbed more, I could perhaps try and onsight)

95
 fammer 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Stanners:

Certainly in terms of how hard it is to redpoint an e5 it's definitely far easier than the 'recent top ascents' criteria for sport climbing of 7c and much much easier than 7C boulder. Dunno how hard a VII is.

1
OP Stanners 28 Feb 2023
In reply to fammer:

I completely agree. Being able to qualify in recent top ascents with an E5 redpoint seems very unbalanced given the 7c criteria of bouldering and sport.

Perhaps a logical change (if trad redpointing was to stay) is E5 onsight or E7 redpoint 

Post edited at 11:02
4
 jkarran 28 Feb 2023
In reply to fammer:

> Certainly in terms of how hard it is to redpoint an e5 it's definitely far easier than the 'recent top ascents' criteria for sport climbing of 7c and much much easier than 7C boulder. Dunno how hard a VII is.

You think, the trad and sport grades don't seem massively out of whack to me. 7C seems significantly harder than both E5/7c RP but I'm coming at this from a weak coward's perspective.

VII is something other people do!

Ultimately the thresholds just need setting where they deliver a good trickle of recent reports in each field, which they always seemed to when I paid any attention to what was getting done.

jk

Post edited at 11:11
 fammer 28 Feb 2023
In reply to jkarran:

I think for me I'd probably find redpointing a 7c and onsighting an e5 to be roughly equivalent difficulty, and I've actually done each of them roughly an equal number of times. So I'd find redpointing an e5 to be significantly easier. My chance of getting up a 7C boulder is basically nil. But then I am more of a trad climber...

 Edshakey 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Stanners:

> . a route has not had a proper first ascent until it has been onsighted 

I was broadly with you on the first two points, but I don't think this is true in any way!

Ignoring that though, and responding to the question, I think the boundary should just be at whatever gives good level of reporting, as jk says. The >=E5 threshold seems to be about right in terms of numbers of logs, so why change (unless there's a way to filter chossy deathy onsight HVSs instead of safe, solid, prepracticed E5s, but that's not realistic).

Post edited at 11:35
 Offwidth 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Stanners:

None of the categories are really top ascents. In terms of news of weekly 'bests' with list numbers in mind (as jkarran rightly points out). I think there should be two trad lists: onsights from E4 and headpoint/repeats from E5 (in an ideal world given in YDS or sport grades with film ratings or prang potential, so the unsuitability of UK adjectival ratings is removed).

12
 ianstevens 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Edshakey:

> I was broadly with you on the first two points, but I don't think this is true in any way!

> Ignoring that though, and responding to the question, I think the boundary should just be at whatever gives good level of reporting, as jk says. The >=E5 threshold seems to be about right in terms of numbers of logs, so why change (unless there's a way to filter chossy deathy onsight HVSs instead of safe, solid, prepracticed E5s, but that's not realistic).

 Yeah the OP is just quoting Neil Dickson in Onsight to try and look cool. Saying Indian Face hasn't had an ascent? Get in the bin or go and do it before you start making such ridiculous claims. 

2
In reply to Stanners:

> . Someone scraping their way up an HVS onsight covered in cake crumbs is far more impressive than someone practicing to death an E5 high on amino acid supplements 

That's just, like, your opinion, man.

I've RP'd 7c with not that much effort. Haven't yet onsighted E5, and when I have RP'd 'hard' trad it's been terrifying. I've walked away from plenty of routes I've had wired without going through with the lead. 

I get that onsight leads of shonky cheese piles is your thing, and sure, it is impressive, but it's impressive in the same way as breaking flagstones over your head or walking on a bed of burning nails. I.e. you crack on, but normal folk don't aspire to it at all.

14
 spidermonkey09 28 Feb 2023
In reply to ianstevens:

>  Yeah the OP is just quoting Neil Dickson in Onsight to try and look cool. Saying Indian Face hasn't had an ascent? Get in the bin or go and do it before you start making such ridiculous claims. 

Yep; very transparent willy waving. 

1
 Ramon Marin 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Stanners:

I agree, for top ascents I'd E5 onsight, and maybe E6 headpoint maybe?

1
 CameronDuff14 28 Feb 2023
In reply to fammer:

VII is pretty damn hard, maybe the top 1% of winter climbers are operating consistently at that level.

10
Removed User 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Stanners:

Headpointing below E7 is just top-roping anyway isn't it?

Post edited at 12:47
10
 Andy Moles 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Stanners:

I'd cut through the dogmatic bullsh*t but still broadly agree, E5 headpoint is far easier than 7c redpoint and an order of magnitude easier than 7C (for the average all-rounder, obviously dedicated boulderers or people who never boulder are going to have a skewed perspective).

You're never going to get perfect equivalence but since it needs to be simple, E5 O/S, E6 with beta or G/U, E7 RP?

2
 Graeme Hammond 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Stanners:

Part of the problem is RP/HP is such a board category.

trying one or two move you are unsure of whilst abseiling down a route/lowering off an adjacent bolted line/to check you've cleaned the holds properly = HP/RP

A very quick top rope before leading = HP/RP

An onsight attempt where you fall off but because you then dog around a bit before going to the top or lowering off it isn't GU, but you subsequently re lead = HP/RP

Multiple TR siege over several sessions to death = HP/RP

Depending on the grade and the climber and the way the route is normally climbed some are more impressive than others but all have the same headline HP/RP. 

 Robert Durran 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Offwidth:

> I think there should be two trad lists: onsights from E4 and headpoint/repeats from E5 (in an ideal world given in YDS or sport grades with film ratings or prang potential, so the unsuitability of UK adjectival ratings is removed).

So we should decide what is difficult enough for the list using UK adjectival grades but then grade them using the YDS because the UK adjectival grade doesn't tell us how difficult they are?

And surely you meant YDS ratings and UK adjectival grades, not vice/versa!

 Fellover 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Stanners:

Feel like there's a good point in here under the somewhat dubious blanket statements.

Having E5 onsight, flash, ground up, and headpoint all qualify for the top ascents list does seem a bit off. As other people have suggested, something like E5 OS, E6 Flash, E6 GU and E7 HP as the thresholds would make more sense to me.

Trying to make comparisons across the different games is always going to be impossible, but the thresholds that currently exist don't seem wildly incorrect.

 dinodinosaur 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Stanners:

I feel like if possible trad onsights (starting at E5) and trad headpoints (starting at E6) should have separate categories on top ascents. Also not sure 7C is the same as doing 7c route but oh well.

 Tyler 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Stanners:

It depends if you want equivalent difficulty or equivalent frequency. For difficulty RP E5 is equivalent to font 6c but I dare say the current bands produce the right number of entries because onsights of E5+ seem increasingly rare (apart from grit highballs and Pembroke at Easter!)

Would be interesting if UKC had the number of E5 onsights vs E7 RP per year. 

3
 Offwidth 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

Might have known you would pick that up and not comment on the far more important factor that there should be two trad lists

In an ideal world the YDS issues that concern you wouldn't exist either. For a headpoint the key factors are how difficult is the climb with beta and what are the consequences of a slip on hard moves: an ideal YDS system defines that perfectly. Sport grades and prang potential would work almost as well. What YDS wouldn't define well is the inclusion category... I think it should be E6 for repeat/headpoint/full beta.

Post edited at 14:46
11
 Misha 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Stanners:

I just see it as a list of hardish (and harder) routes done. Useful to get an idea of what’s in and idle curiosity. I wouldn’t describe anything as a top ascent unless it’s actually newsworthy but it’s interesting to see what’s being done (or at least logged) at the next couple of levels down.

 Robert Durran 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Offwidth:

Ah sorry, so you meant YDS only for the non-onsight category? That does make more sense, though French grades would be far better because people understand them (because they are understandable!).

 Wft 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Misha:

What Misha said. For most, it's just a useful tool for seeing what's clean and what areas have come into condition. 

I admit there used to be a thrill seeing one's name in lights, so to speak, but that does diminish as you get older/less attached and realise that path is one that can lead to ruin. 

That HVS sounds awful. 

 Andy Moles 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Misha:

> I just see it as a list of hardish (and harder) routes done. Useful to get an idea of what’s in and idle curiosity. I wouldn’t describe anything as a top ascent unless it’s actually newsworthy but it’s interesting to see what’s being done (or at least logged) at the next couple of levels down.

I would say redpointing a 6c-7a (give or take) on trad gear is a lot of levels down. Which is fine, but it's clearly not on a par with bouldering 7C, which is the point of contention. If there's going to be a line drawn somewhere, it makes sense if it's roughly equivalent across the different genres.

Maybe a more interesting function than Top Ascents would be one where you could toggle your own parameters, like the advanced crag search, to see what's been getting done.

In reply to Andy Moles:

Yeah bouldering 7C is the one that's out of line. 

Would a filter by style button at the top of the page make everyone happy? As it is you don't get a special page for flashing 7c sport, but people regularly do.

Post edited at 16:41
 Will Rupp 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Stanners:

The bouldering one is definitely the hardest! But I like it as it is, it's just cool to see what hard routes are getting done, whatever style that may be in.

 Offwidth 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Andy Moles:

I still think these lists need to produce roughly the same number of posts and as such all the levels (except there is not one for trad onsights) seem roughly correct to me. Of course the bouldering threshold is way harder than thresholds on other lists as harder bouldering is more popular.

 Martin Haworth 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Stanners: I don’t think it’s particularly interesting to list E5 ascents, or for that matter 7c sport ascents. They are both pretty common nowadays(says the E1/6c punter!). 
It would be worth looking at the list if it was E6 O/S, E8 HP, 8a+ sport, VIII winter, ED3 Alpine.

Also I think there should be a separate section for female top ascents.

Post edited at 17:02
12
 Michael Gordon 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Stanners:

> Perhaps a logical change (if trad redpointing was to stay) is E5 onsight or E7 redpoint 

For some reason I thought UKC might've already acted on this and made some changes along these lines. The debate's been brought up enough times.

 john arran 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Offwidth:

> For a headpoint the key factors are how difficult is the climb with beta and what are the consequences of a slip on hard moves: an ideal YDS system defines that perfectly. 

Really, it doesn't. It sounds like it ought to but it doesn't. The reason is that it assumes the hardest climbing and the riskiest climbing occur at the same point, or that the reader is somehow magically aware of which part of the route the cinema rating applies to. Certainly sometimes it's clear but far from always.

Take Elegy (E2 5c) for example. Maybe 5.9+, crux safe as houses, but extremely runout at the top. So is it 5.9+ X, 5.9+ R or what? Both of these suggest a much harder route than it is. E2 5c will do nicely thank you.

 Michael Gordon 28 Feb 2023
In reply to CameronDuff14:

> VII is pretty damn hard, maybe the top 1% of winter climbers are operating consistently at that level.

One could argue that point, but of course the top ascents page is a record of single ascents, not a measure of consistency. How VII compares to, say, E5, is perhaps in large part down to one's individual strengths, but many would think of it as the start of the harder grades. At least they're pretty much always going to be done ground-up. It's always interesting to see what's getting done at that, for many punters, just about achievable level. 

In reply to Stanners:

> . Someone scraping their way up an HVS onsight covered in cake crumbs is far more impressive than someone practicing to death an E5 high on amino acid supplements 

As someone who a) eats a lot of cake and b) sometimes scrapes inelegantly up HVSes it would suit me if this were true, but I don't think it is. Climbing doesn't have a handicap system like golf, partly because for the huge majority of climbers it's not a competitive sport and therefore whatever grade you happen to climb at is only important to yourself. And possibly your partner if they're relying on you to climb out of a chossy HVS deathroute on a sea cliff.

 Offwidth 28 Feb 2023
In reply to john arran:

Elegy would be 5.9+ (5.7R) in the format in US guidebooks I've used (to deal with that issue). You also seem to be thinking onsight instead of redpoint (I'm perfectly happy with UK trad grading for that grade, and below, for trad onsights....the problem above UK tech 6a is the tech grade bands are too wide so this factor degrades the way the combination of two grades works in UK trad).

Post edited at 18:02
 CameronDuff14 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Michael Gordon:

And a fair point one would make!

 Andy Moles 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Offwidth:

> I still think these lists need to produce roughly the same number of posts and as such all the levels (except there is not one for trad onsights) seem roughly correct to me. Of course the bouldering threshold is way harder than thresholds on other lists as harder bouldering is more popular.

I'm not sure I care personally about having even representation but fair enough. It's mainly just the worked E5 that seems too low an entry point.

 remus Global Crag Moderator 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Wft:

> I admit there used to be a thrill seeing one's name in lights, so to speak, but that does diminish as you get older/less attached and realise that path is one that can lead to ruin. 

Sounds like you've achieved enlightenment. Personally I still love it every time I work the softest of softies down to my level and see my glory on display for all and sundry.

 deacondeacon 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Stanners:

E5 is the perfect level for the Top Ascents page. Any lower and there'd be 100's of ascents, any higher and there'd hardly be any. The best thing about the page is that it tells others operating at the grade, which routesare in condition.

 john arran 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Offwidth:

> Elegy would be 5.9+ (5.7R) in the format in US guidebooks I've used (to deal with that issue).

So, ignoring the fact that you've now introduced 3 grades to describe a single pitch, would that make the route easier or harder overall than, say, a typical E1 5c, which for the sake of argument might equate physically to 5.10a?

 Andy Moles 28 Feb 2023
In reply to deacondeacon:

No one said there shouldn't be E5s, only headpointed E5s, which I would say is often no harder than on-sighting E3.

 Wft 28 Feb 2023
In reply to remus:

I'm just knackered

 TobyA 28 Feb 2023
In reply to CameronDuff14:

I suspect you might not be far off on the idea that only 1 percent of winter climbers climbing VII (be that VII,7 VII,8 or even the terrifying sounding VII,6), despite the down votes your original post got. But of course it will depend on what you count as a "winter climber".

The hardest UK route I've done, now a long time ago, get VI,6. I failed on the one V,7 I've tried (although it might get VI,7 now which makes me feel a tiny bit better). So at my best when I was winter climbing a lot I've been one grade below the grade we're talking here for "top ascents". My best UK trad onsight is E1, my best sport onsight 6b, don't really know about bouldering, I've managed a few 6As. So if VII gets you onto the "top ascents", that seems an easier route to the list than either E5, 7c and f7C. Maybe top ascents should be VIII for winter routes now?

2
 French Erick 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Stanners:

Air do shocair! My friend, just chill. It’s just numbers and it’s just climbing. It’s only a thing to motivate others!

One can play to one’s strength and area of expertise. I can O/S lead VII with a bit of a fight, I couldn’t touch either E5 or 7c O/S or RP. In fact, I am pretty certain I would struggle to TR a 7c as it stands. So what? 
 

Continue to climb and have fun mate!

 Misha 28 Feb 2023
In reply to Andy Moles:

Yeah or just more conditions pages like the winter, alpine and mountain crags ones. So you could have sea cliffs, lime sport, lime trad, grit, etc. Ideally customisable as you say.

I was struggling for words a bit when I referred to the left couple of levels down. What I meant was the very broad grade range from around the top of my grade up to but not including what gets in the news. So I guess E5 to E8. As you say, more than a couple of levels there. Agree the bouldering equivalence is off, whichever way you look at it. Anyway, it’s just some slightly ransom info. Whether or not it’s useful depends on what someone is looking for.

 henwardian 28 Feb 2023
In reply to jkarran:

> Ultimately the thresholds just need setting where they deliver a good trickle of recent reports in each field, which they always seemed to when I paid any attention to what was getting done.

I'd agree with this.

I don't ever look at the recent top ascents page (though I did check it out just now to see what it's all about) but if it gives a relatively brief rundown of the hardest recent ascents in each discipline, who cares about the relative difficulty between disciplines?

The top ascents page gives an interesting showing of who is doing what where but there is absolutely nothing preventing me from registering some 7c redpoints next week that are totally made up. Adding a route to their logbook doesn't mean a lot, if it is _actually_ noteworthy then at some point someone will pick it up in the form of a news item.

Edit: And as for the OPs ethics blah-blah about trad redpoints and on-sights, it's been discussed to death a thousand times before but I don't think I've heard the "you shouldn't headpoint something because it might take away all the snappy death holds for the next person who is on-sighting" line before, sounds so far up one's own derriere as to create some kind of rear-end/head infinite vortex.

Post edited at 22:40
 Offwidth 01 Mar 2023
In reply to john arran:

My concern is about E5's and above in these lists. I shouldn't need to teach you to suck eggs and explain why accurate YDS grades and film ratings (or accurate sport grades and prang potential) gives more useful information than UK grades for headpoints for such routes. That's ignoring the E5+ ego ticks (and their risks).

I didn’t introduce three grades, the US guidebooks I used did (mainly on topos). I've seen info on UK E5+ with boulder crux grades, sport grades, full UK trad grades and notes.

On your example, there is no standard E1 5c in the US: in Joshua Tree I've onsighted several popular slabby routes graded 5.8 with no film rating which were hard for that UK grade and have heard of other places where such an E1 might be mid 5.10s. I've onsighted an obscure scary sandbag 5.4 at Indian Cove that was maybe E1 5b. US grading has its own rules for different styles and locations around that E1 onsight grade; and some places have plenty of sandbags, like some venues in the UK.... but that's not expecially relevant to E5+.

My concern is about E5's and above in these lists. I shouldn't need to teach you to suck eggs and explain why accurate YDS grades and film ratings (or accurate sport grades and prang potential) gives more useful information than UK grades for headpoints for such routes. That's ignoring the E5+ ego ticks (and their risks).

I didn’t introduce three grades, the US guidebooks I used did (mainly on topos). I've seen info on UK E5+ with boulder crux grades, sport grades, full UK trad grades and notes.

On your example, there is no standard E1 5c in the US: in Joshua Tree I've onsighted several popular slabby routes graded 5.8 with no film rating which were hard for that UK grade and have heard of other places where such an E1 might be mid 5.10s. I've onsighted an obscure scary sandbag 5.4 at Indian Cove that was maybe E1 5b. US grading has its own rules for different styles and locations around that E1 onsight grade; and some places have plenty of sandbags, like some venues in the UK.... but that's not expecially relevant to E5+.

My main point remains: I'd like trad onsights and other trad ascents split into two lists as it gives a better indication of what's going on. The numbers in the lists to me show me everything is roughly OK in the current lists (so E5 is sadly fine). However, since there are too few onsights in the lists over the year, if the list is split that I'd say the onsight list needs to be at E4 as a starter.

Post edited at 00:38
18
In reply to deacondeacon:

> E5 is the perfect level for the Top Ascents page. Any lower and there'd be 100's of ascents, any higher and there'd hardly be any. The best thing about the page is that it tells others operating at the grade, which routes are in condition.

Good post. Also, looking at the stats and just generally watching what goes on at the crag, E5s were big news in the late 70s/early 80s. The cutting edge might have gone up since then, but overall trad standards are getting lower so E5s are pretty relevant now still. The sport/trad grade comparison doesn’t wash. If you ab down London Wall and pre place the gear, I guess it’s around 7a+ as a sport route, but not comparable to placing the gear on lead even if it’s been practiced. Thinking back, there was a fairly relaxed relationship with cleaning on top rope on FAs back in the day 😂

 UKB Shark 01 Mar 2023
In reply to Graeme Hammond:

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

> Part of the problem is RP/HP is such a board category.

> trying one or two move you are unsure of whilst abseiling down a route/lowering off an adjacent bolted line/to check you've cleaned the holds properly = HP/RP

> A very quick top rope before leading = HP/RP

> An onsight attempt where you fall off but because you then dog around a bit before going to the top or lowering off it isn't GU, but you subsequently re lead = HP/RP

> Multiple TR siege over several sessions to death = HP/RP

> Depending on the grade and the climber and the way the route is normally climbed some are more impressive than others but all have the same headline HP/RP. 

 

Well put Graeme. I personally think that working something to the n’th degree is true redpointing/Headpointing 

Trying to square the shades of grey of trad styles of ascent with the figuratively (and literally) black and white of a list is never going to be perfect. 

I like the lists to see quickly what people are doing (as well as indicating what is clean and dry). Bearing in mind all your provisos I would prefer to see RP E7 and OS E5 as the entry points for an improved, if still imperfect, equivalence.  

 Andy Moles 01 Mar 2023
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

Again, literally nobody on the thread has argued that E5s climbed on-sight should not be included.

I can't quite work out what your point is about pre-placing gear on London Wall other than to affirm the obvious, that having to place gear makes routes harder. So yes, that's why E5 on-sight and 7c redpoint are agreed to be roughly equivalent, which again has not been disputed by anyone.

1
 Philb1950 01 Mar 2023
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

Agree with your comments re., overall lead grades, as in the absence of sports routes my perception is that many more people were operating at the higher standards and led E5/6, usually on site, except for chop routes, but even then many confident climbers still went for the on-site. In my experience and for obvious reasons cleaning was often undertaken off a top rope especially on limestone, but still some E5 first ascents were attempted ground up on site. With cleaning in mind I’m sure you know, many first ascent protagonists owned wire brushes, chisels, crow bars, screw drivers and lump hammers! Surprisingly and many years ago, the first person I saw pre placing gear, for which I ribbed him, was the late great and sorely missed “The Boss”. Sport to so called trad. grade comparisons are sometimes quite difficult to make as sports routes tend to be a lot more sustained, whereas trad. usually have a distinct crux. On that basis I’d  grade London Wall on pre placed gear mainly 6B with the short sustained top crack 6C and one perhaps slightly harder, but well protected move low down. Proper E5 though.

3
 Andy Moles 01 Mar 2023
In reply to Philb1950:

> On that basis I’d  grade London Wall on pre placed gear mainly 6B with the short sustained top crack 6C and one perhaps slightly harder, but well protected move low down.

Are you the same person who I've seen arguing Golden Mile is 6c?

I can only speculate that your trad and sport experiences may be offset by a number of years in which you perhaps got a bit less strong?

This may not be the case, I'm just grasping for an explanation of how drastically wrong* you are

* I'm wary of using a word as blunt as 'wrong' with regard to something as subjective as grades, but I am 100% confident that if you got 100 regular trad and sport climbers to climb Golden Mile and London Wall on pre-placed gear (or a top-rope), not a single one of them would say they are as easy as 6c.

 MischaHY 01 Mar 2023
In reply to Stanners:

I'd broadly agree with the main points with the exception of the obviously outdated dogma re. hard headpoints not 'counting' somehow. That's silly and we all know it's silly and basically means Dave Mac hasn't done anything hard along with many other top trad climbers. 

That being said between 2014 and 2015 I knocked out a bunch of bold grit e5 and e6 by simply top roping the living daylights out of them and then scurrying up on the lead. After doing a few E5 onsights I then stopped doing this and started trying things ground up which lead to a run of nice grit onsights that I would previously have toproped. However I do often wonder if I'd have ever developed the skill to do those onsights if I hadn't done the headpoints before. Hard to say but I agree with the above comments that E3 OS is similar to E5 headpoint and often a better effort. 

Getting into trad I was definitely a little blinded by the lights and super psyched to be climbing in what I viewed to be exciting grades and at the time headpointing was the only way I could access them. Times change and I grew to value the experience of ground up and exploratory onsight attempts which feel valuable even if you end up backing off. 

In conclusion I think that OP should take up the mantle of his own belief and eat less cake/train more and then try and onsight one or two of those Pembroke E7s! 

1
 Philb1950 01 Mar 2023
In reply to Andy Moles:

I am. The crux of GM is one move onto the ledge at English 6B., but the hardest E5 bit to lead is above that all the way to the top at sustained English 5C/6A every move and poor minimum RP protection. A proper mind game, but actually  not unduly hard in sport grade terms. At my strongest even with the security of bolts never flashed anything above 7A+, or red-pointed above 7C+, but we rarely failed on E5. Sardine was one of the first 7B+ sport climbs, but it wasn’t flashed for quite a while due to both the difficulty and technicality. Imagine running it out on the crux of that above poor RP,s!  Not long after the first ascent  when I tried it we could barely do a move, but the day before we had done Bastille E6 without too much trouble. It’s just my opinion but I spoke to Martin Atkinson about this very question and he was in agreement with me, adding inflated claims for trad. grades from predominantly sport climbers is now quite normal. Regarding GM he pointed out that some people had claimed 7B/B+ for GM, whereas to get it in context, Masters Edge is 7B+ and no comparison. Taking climbers as a whole not many will or want to on sight E5/6, but probably thousands can and do red point 7B+. So without bolts and poor protection, things will feel a lot more difficult making it hard to be objective. I am a lot weaker now by the way.

1
 Andy Moles 01 Mar 2023
In reply to Philb1950:

I think you were a better trad climber than you give yourself credit for.

You're right of course that the head games of trad make it harder to be objective, but in the case of LW I've shunted it more than once for training after having lead it, which eliminates those factors, and it's simply miles harder than 6c.

If LW and GM were bolted, they would both be 7a at the very least, but probably both 7a+.

Anyway I doubt you'll be persuaded by some bloke on a forum, I can only suggest top-roping them again now to see for yourself!

 Offwidth 01 Mar 2023
In reply to Philb1950:

Are you using capital letters deliberately or through ignorance of conventions? 6B is a bouldering grade and UK tech 6b (don't Wales, Scotland and NI, also borrowing a system that came from Fontainbleau, count?) and sport 6c are both lower case.

I'm not surprised in the slightest that there are fewer E5 onsights now than at the start of the 90s, when I was first paying attention to such things. Climbing trad, onsight or otherwise, was by far the majority game in town for the best climbers then,  but isn’t now.

I witnessed plenty of what some purists regarded as 'cheating' on grit beyond cleaning and/ or abseil inspection: in particular carefully watching other climber's ascents, questioning details on routes, climbing next door routes to inspect holds and rock condition, and use of side-runners that were in guidebooks as reducing the grade. I never had any concerns (beyond serious ecological or rock damage) as long as climbers were honest. I'm particularly happy with the growth of bouldering as it has expanded technical ability and diversity on rock. In particular, if someone told me in 1993 they think there would be around 100 british women climbing 7C by the end of 2023, I'd have hoped this might be true but would have highly doubted it.

https://climbing-history.org/list/4/strong-british-female-boulderers

1
 Offwidth 01 Mar 2023
In reply to Andy Moles:

>If LW and GM were bolted, they would both be 7a at the very least, but probably both 7a+.

.....and have been regarded as such for a couple of decades at least:

http://www.oocities.org/readza1/climbing/gritlist/grit_e5.html

In reply to Philb1950:

I spent some good days out occasionally with The Boss back in the day. If you're cleaning on ab rope, you might end up accidentally grabbing some of the holds, and by mistake doing what looks like a little practice of a couple of moves...those were the days.

You are right, LW is proper E5. My point is that with slowly declining grades on trad, then even a prepracticed ascent is good going. I seconded it a few times so never got an onsight. I never lost any sleep over that though, it's a brilliant route whatever.

 Philb1950 01 Mar 2023
In reply to Offwidth:

I’m sure by your measures I probably would be broadly ignorant and not just of climbing conventions, though I fail to see that this has any material bearing on my post. You have to be of a certain age to have witnessed and appreciate the serious and ongoing degradation, ecological and rock damage, as a consequence of bouldering now being the most popular climbing activity. Just witness Stanage plantation, Cratcliffe or Robin Hoods Stride among others as prime examples of a trashed environment. As we walked through the Plantation a couple of weeks ago even Martin Veale, expressed regret at the damage to the environment and he is the author of many Peak wide boulder problems. The main reason we went bouldering was to expand technical ability and that’s why we did it, but not as an end in itself. Female participation at high grades has to be admired and encouraged, in stark contrast to the past where after reading in a magazine about Geraldine being the flagship of the female climbing movement, someone posted in the Stoney route book “ must have been a frigate”. I often climbed at that time with most of the leading Peak and York’s. women and gender was never discussed, in contrast to Al Rouses non entirely serious comment in the pub one night “if a woman ever climbs as well as me I’ll give up climbing” As we know that can’t be tested, but these comments were a typical sign of the times, now consigned to history. They were not labelled as misogyny and quite often laughed at by the very women they mocked and in those days everybody not just women were and could be paradied or laughed at as it was par for the course and to be expected, but I think that had to do with a lot of climbers being more at the anarchistic end of the behavioural scale then, as opposed to the current heightened sensibilities.

15
In reply to Philb1950:

I climbed countless routes with Geraldine back in the day, on sight, pretty pokey grades for the day, plus the yearly lead of London Wall. Way ahead of the vast majority of male climbers at the time and it was misogyny 

 Offwidth 01 Mar 2023
In reply to Philb1950:

I regard you as highly experienced and an important part of UK climbing history. It's weird to me, given that, to see you use such incorrect terminology.

I always despaired as a young man with the misogyny around, even in climbing, but things were much better in my student club than elsewhere. I do know there were discussions at the time but that tends to get written out of history. I remember Mick Ryan highlighted factors, in two articles, looking back, on UKC back in 2005.

As for the damage on boulders, it's sad but arguably no worse really than the early damage from nailed boots on Stanage routes or ground erosion on most popular crags. What is needed is better education: on using mats to protect the ground, cleaning shoes, care with brushing and staying off damp rock. I simply don't accept, to borrow a phrase, 'good ninjas' do much damage.

6
 George_Surf 02 Mar 2023
In reply to Stanners:

Come on! Let’s face it, UKC top ascents are never really top ascents and I doubt anyone claims them to be. Still, Ive had loads of good route inspiration from there and it’s sometimes interesting to see what’s going on. You never know, the person who RP’d an e5 might have cleaned up a forgotten classic, in which case we’ve all got something else to add to the list… really, who actually cAres that much? 

2
 timjones 02 Mar 2023
In reply to Stanners:

How many "harder" trad ascents were there to be "celebrated" at the time?

You don't have to celebrate everything that is reported.

Post edited at 08:32
 Offwidth 02 Mar 2023
In reply to George_Surf:

Several people here have said they care and most of them are aware only a tiny proportion of reports relate to genuine top ascents. It's a useful snapshot subset (lots of similar graded ascents won't even be logged) to see what's going on week by week, also providing a useful historical resource. Currently it's a shame in my view that trad onsights are the least well reported.

 Mick Ward 02 Mar 2023
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

> I climbed countless routes with Geraldine back in the day, on sight, pretty pokey grades for the day, plus the yearly lead of London Wall. Way ahead of the vast majority of male climbers at the time and it was misogyny 

Totally agree. Geraldine was far and away the best female climber in the UK for quite a few years. And she was way ahead of most men. She's never had a fraction of the credit she deserved. 

Mick 

 George_Surf 02 Mar 2023
In reply to Offwidth:

Yeah I agree it’s an interesting snapshot, that’s exactly what I said. I’m just saying does anyone really care if an RP of an e5 makes it in to the list or not? What’s the difference either way? Everyone knows onsights the gold standard and in my opinion unchalked e6 onsight is more impressive than an e8 headpoint. I’d expect most experienced climbers to agree? Onsights are almost always the most memorable experiences a and I’m sure many peoples proudest achievements (if that’s what you want to call it. Each to their own though, I know quite a few people that favour the long drawn out hard RP as ‘the experience’. Still, I don’t really see why this thread needs tO be a thing  

1
 Andy Moles 02 Mar 2023
In reply to George_Surf:

> You never know, the person who RP’d an e5 might have cleaned up a forgotten classic

Makes me think, I would be interested in a list that showed things of those grades that have been logged say less than 10 times, or things that haven't been logged for 10 years or something.

 George_Surf 02 Mar 2023
In reply to Andy Moles:

I cleaned quite a few Rhinog routes over lockdown I keep meaning to write which ones in the comments. I’m sure one was an e4/5 that might have been on your wish list (or someone I know!). It was one of the routes near the Roman steps. Really good, right of an e3 

1
 Tyler 02 Mar 2023
In reply to Andy Moles:

I’ve banged on about this route before but it if anyone wants to do this untraveled gem I’ll hold their ropes, it really is amazing looking:

Crash Landing (E5 6b)

Post edited at 15:17
 George_Surf 02 Mar 2023
In reply to Tyler:

If anything’s cOme of this thread it’s that I’ve got a new route (on an unknown crag!) on the list! 

 Tyler 02 Mar 2023
In reply to George_Surf:

It’s pretty historic, claimed as the first British 6c. I tried to walk to the top to clean it in the summer but the jumble of boulders already alongside the crag was too much in the time I had. It’s not obviously dirty but looks bold and smeary so probably needs a brush. I’ll have another go at cleaning when the clocks go back if there is interest. It really does look good. There’s also a very bold looking E6 arete

Post edited at 16:11
 Offwidth 02 Mar 2023
In reply to George_Surf:

>Still, I don’t really see why this thread needs tO be a thing  

If we get a weekly best trad onsight list I'll be happy.

Good on you for cleaning those Rhinog routes.

 Andy Moles 02 Mar 2023
In reply to George_Surf:

> I'm sure one was an e4/5 that might have been on your wish list (or someone I know!).

The list I made of unticked E1-E5 routes maybe rather than wishlist? Must admit the Rhinogs has never really been on my radar, but good effs nonetheless.

 George_Surf 02 Mar 2023
In reply to Andy Moles:

Yeah something like that. Gwen is the route, really good climbing on it. Pretty powerful. I’d love to meet Martin Crocker one day. He must have a whole bag of stories 

In reply to Stanners:

For something to be considered a 'top ascent', does it need to meet some objective standard of a hard climb? Or could we consider the metric to be more subjective and personal? I.e. What is a 'top ascent' for that person?

If Caff did an E5 onsight this would not be a top ascent for him. But for someone who has only ever climbed E1 to HP an E5 after years of trying, this would surely be more impressive and worthy of mention.

As long as we are honest about the rules of the game we are playing, then the achievement is relative to that person's ability. Whether they should have head-pointed it or not is none of mine or anyone else's business.

12
 robate 18 Mar 2023
In reply to widdlestickmcpoos:

Perhaps there should be a R number, giving the romance of the ascent to the individual concerned, just how far they travelled on the souls reach. Everything else is gymnastics.

Post edited at 19:31
 Andy Moles 19 Mar 2023
In reply to widdlestickmcpoos:

It's a nice sentiment, but how would that algorithm work?

While it may be nice to know that weekend Steve has sent his first 6a, it's also interesting to see what actually harder things have been climbed.

 john arran 19 Mar 2023
In reply to Andy Moles:

There may be some scope for publishing a 'personal bests' list as a separate thing to the top ascents list. People wouldn't need to look at it if they weren't interested.

 Nick1812P 21 Mar 2023
In reply to Stanners:

Are we just going to ignore all your hardest routes are headpointed?

I'm not sure why everyone is getting so bogged down in the comparison between the requirements for each style most people do more of one type of climbing so you're obviously going to perform better in that discipline and have a skewed perspective of difficulty. The entry grades should be independent between the styles and should be proportional to the grading system in question and the frequency of ascents.

With that in mind 7c sport is probably too low nowadays and should be bumped up to at least 8a it's hard to compare at this time of year but I imagine more than 40 7c get climbed every weekend in summer so you lose track of what's actually being done.

If you ignore the snowball ascents of the last week or so, the current E5+ list tends to show a couple of weeks worth of ascents so what would the change actually achieve? a shorter/longer-lasting list of fractionally harder routes?

Or are you just upset people get some sense of achievement from making the list that you feel is unjustified and push your 'pure' ascents down so you miss out on your rightful time at the top?

Most importantly, the people that have irked you have clearly stated their style of ascent so you can do with that info as you will, they're (probably) not seeking your admiration so scroll onto to the ascents you do admire?

2
 gravy 21 Mar 2023
In reply to Nick1812P:

I say leave it at E5 - it's not as if we're drowning under a deluge that makes UKC unworkable is it?

 robate 22 Mar 2023
In reply to john arran:

The category I would really like is Epics of the week. This could lead to a write up of the biggest epic. Anything could qualify, from the conventional 56 days on some hideous 8c to something like the near ground fall I once saw someone take from the Vector cave.

 Brass Nipples 22 Mar 2023
In reply to Stanners:

Maybe only include First Ascents and no other ascents will count?


New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...