UKH

Does anyone know a website where you can find the current status of outdoor climbing restrictions per country? If there is no such, can we simply compile one - e.g. I believe in Austria one can now actually climb outdoors, in Germany it is so-so, only if close-by where you live, Belgium is a no go, etc 

What purpose would such a website serve in practice, other than idle curiosity?

Germany is a federal republic and the restrictions are up to the individual states, some have various contact prohibitions, some have movement restrictions. Cities, towns and other local communities down to village level can also apply stronger measures if needed. In Bavaria leaving your home is only permitted on good grounds and rock climbing isn't one of them, same goes for some of the other states.

Would be nice if the dislikers were to answer the question rather than apparently just object to it being asked.

Perhaps one can decide to go to a specific country so that one can finally climb outside? 

And with the UK having the worst infection rate in Europe, do you think that's wise?

I've read other interpretations - outdoor exercise is explicitly defined as one of the "good reasons" and climbing is outdoor exercise. https://www.frankenjura.com/frankenjura/news/artikel/1840

Doesn't help me personally, since driving to the Frankenjura - or even Kochel - to pursue my outdoor exercise definitely wouldn't be a good reason.

Most have travel restrictions, so you would not be able to enter and move freely except for urgent work or family situations.

In France it will be allowed to climb from May 11, but there are a lot of travel restrictions: no travelling more than 100 km from home, probably no travelling at all in so called "red departments", which will cover about half of France.

It seems like the same type of restrictions apply elsewhere.

Climbing is generally allowed in all Nordic countries that has rock, and Sweden has no travel restrictions from the UK afaik. 

what’s the infection rate?

Well it´s the usual grey area, firstly your exercise is supposed to be local so like you say going to the Franken is out. Then whether your belayer is actually "taking" exercise is going to be up to the individual policeman, stopping for a rest on a park bench is allowed but standing around while you work your project is probably pushing it. Since the authorities have expressly said climbing is not wished and we depend on them for access the answer is clear. Otherwise it will be banned, forever.

Travel restrictions are fairly vague as well... You can actually travel between most European countries. Is it wise? From a country with more infected people to a country with less - perhaps no, although even this is questionable as all the countries have "enough" infected people already anyway... +not everybody is coming from UK. So yes, given that I will be traveling from a country with relatively few identified cases, I will definitely opt for going somewhere where I would be able to climb. 

I would appreciate if this topic doesn't turn into yet another discussion about is it "wise" to climb outside, is it more responsible towards the risky group than going to the supermarket without a mask, should we go out of the house at all, etc. The question is what are the guidelines per country with regards to climbing outside. 

Even if there was, trying to arrange a trip at the moment when unnecessary travel is a fairly big no-no will be a nightmare. Where are you staying? How are you getting there? Are you prepared to be made very, very unwelcome by locals? etc etc etc. 

If it was me I'd just chill out do something else until we can travel longer distances for hobbies. 

I'm just asking the question. It's for you and others to decide whether actions are reasonable, even if technically still legal.

Thank you for the clarification. Fully agree that in this case it is of no good to travel and climb in Germany. Apparently, same applies for France. 

This is exactly what I am trying to find out: what are the laws in different countries. "unnecessary travel is a fairly big no-no" - perhaps for UK... Not everybody is coming from/going to UK... At certain places you can already book accommodations, at others it will be allowed within a week or 2.I really don't get all these responses trying to tell people what they should do or not do and enforcing their believes and assumption. All I am asking for is information! I am asking what the laws are... Can you please stop judging and showing how considerate you are?!? 

I'm not. Do what you want. Hence the "If it was me...........". 

I would imagine each country's government would have their own respective websites on any restrictions

And I still struggle to understand why it's such a sacrifice to just run with it and do something else for a bit.

I think what you are missing is that the 'restrictions' are social & practical as much as legal (there are few laws explicitly banning climbing). Plus the restrictions of any sort are in a state of flux as different communities (and police forces) changing their interpretations week by week. So by all means ask your question - just don't expect a meaningful answer. There isn't one.

You can only enter Germany (and most if not all the EU 27) without good grounds and valid test certificate anyway.

I think that's what i was kind of trying to say, although not particularly well!

In some countries it is a complete no-go (e.g. Belgium) and this is a meaningful answer. In some countries it is a grey zone - e.g. allowed only if local, or just vague - that would also be an answer.

Yes, the countries have their websites with the restrictions listed. I am asking if there is a place where these are compiled together

peppermill, it is not "such a sacrifice". I can live without it. Would prefer not to, if I had the choice though. Is it such a sacrifice not to eat any kind of chocolate ever again? Surely not, but so what? Is it such a sacrifices to live without any internet connection for a week/a month? 

No outside rock climbing in Holland or Denmark

Aw man, to think I was planning a big trad trip there...........

;p

https://www.mountainproject.com/area/112064572/bornholm

France hasn't yet decided on if climbing will happen after the 11th, the sports minister is putting together a comprehensive list for what sports will be allowed and not, hopefully soon. It will also have some input from the local authorities so it may not be the same everywhere in France.

I have also read that for biking which will be allowed after the 11th they are saying there needs to be 10 meters between people, which may rule climbing out. and they seam to not be basing in on risk, so maybe able to ski tour on your own more than climb?

Not true. There is outside rock climbing in Denmark and it is not banned. 

I disliked because you challenged the validity of the question, anyone can ask any question they want, either answer or move on. 

Thank you for your honesty. But I didn't challenge the validity of the question; I challenged the usefulness of any answer.

Is there a list - probably not.

Scandinavian countries are probably your best bet. A few people have posted over the last few weeks that climbing was still going on there. Whether you could get to Scandinavia is another question.

As noted above, in France people are waiting to hear from the government for sport specific rules. Team and combat sports won’t be allowed, nor will groups over 10. 10m distance for cardio sports, about 4. square metres for things like tennis and yoga (so about 1m apart). The question is how would social distancing apply to climbing - for example, does it mean no multi pitch routes to avoid having to share belays; what about using the same gear and holds etc. However in any case as noted above this will only be in ‘green’ regions and travel will be limited to 100km. I’m interested in this as it could be a potential model for the UK.

http://sports.gouv.fr/presse/article/reprise-de-l-activite-sportive

Thats the current guidelines by the Austrien association VAVÖ: https://vavoe.at/2020/05/01/bergsport-covid-19/

( may use google tranlate...). 

An the mor forward ones of ÖGV:

https://www.alpenverein.at/gebirgsverein/home/subnews_allgemein/2020_03_11_.... 

So, it seems things.ar moving in the right direction. Difficulties currently with travel, not climbing as mentioned above. 

All I am asking for is information! I am asking what the laws are... Can you please stop judging and showing how considerate you are?!? 

Well first off we are entitled to be judgemental, some of us know how tenous, fragile and hard-won the permission to climb in most areas and don't want to lose it for next year or the next generation or forever. So, as Marek points out it is is also a social matter for the climbing community.

In most countries climbing is of such minimal importance that specific laws allowing or preventing it don't exist under Covid, there are orders regarding when and how you leave your house and what you do and the interpretation of these isn't up to the barrack-room lawyers of UKC. The decision on whether you are taking excercise, social distancing etc is done on the ground by a police officer (who may have been told his granny died last week, who's dad is unemployed and is going home to a stressed out home working wife trying to home- school 3 kids) so anticipate his view on the interpretation of what's allowed may be different to yours. You can of course appeal against their on the spot decision to fine you and argue the importance of your 'right to climb' before a judge who understands what the authorities are trying to achieve and is well schooled in the balance between personal freedoms and the common good.

Best of luck with that!

meh, chocolate gives me migraines I might try a little again in a couple of years, don't really miss it

I can cope with not climbing for a few months

and . . . if you were not looking for judgemental, you asked in the wrong place : )

Well said.

Mick

For completeness, saw a report saying that France are thinking of a 14 day quarantine of some kind for people entering the country.

Ireland have announced a roadmap for lifting the restrictions and whilst climbing may be ok from as early as 18 May, there is a 20km limit on travel until 20 July. Obviously these dates may change.

So on the whole the answer is that while climbing may become ‘ok’ in some countries in the coming weeks, in practice significant travel restrictions will remain for some time. The Scandinavian countries may be your best bet right now, if you can get there and if they let you in without quarantine (eg Norway announced a 14 day quarantine back in March, don’t know if that’s still in force).

As a general point, cross border travel will probably remain very difficult for the next few months.

To keep up to date with any lifting of lockdowns in the future you can check out the access situation for many climbing areas in the US here:

https://www.accessfund.org/news-and-events/news/climbing-area-closures-and-...

Access is normally determined by who manages the land.  State parks are likely to open before national parks and National Forests.

Here in Washington State lockdown is until 31st May, with some opening-up of outdoor recreation starting this week.  They started with opening up hunting, fishing and golf  (!) - and some day-hiking. No mention of climbing, mountaineering or back-country skiing; most of the land these activities take place on remains closed to access:

https://medium.com/wagovernor/inslee-announces-easing-of-outdoor-restrictio...

I think there is a valid reason for such a list. Not so that people can plan trips though, since international travel should be completely off the agenda at the moment.

It could help us start to figure out whether climbing (and maybe other 1:1 outdoor social activities) really do or don't contribute significantly to infections. There have been a lot of arguments made either way and some of us have expressed the opinion that it probably doesn't have a big impact.

If (as some have stated) outdoor sports that don't involve groups above a certain size are being allowed in Austria and Scandinavia and those countries continue to show low numbers of infections* and deaths it would suggest this might** be one thing that could be allowed when we get to a lower number of infections here.

It has rightly been pointed out numerous times that climbing is a relatively trivial activity but it is still a big part of some people's lives and the need to meet friends is not trivial at all. Some have made the argument that we should ban everything to avoid a sort of creeping whataboutary where everyone seeks to justify their own activity by false comparison. However the fact that going to a pub or a festival will definitely spread the virus shouldn't be a valid reason to ban going fishing. We don't ban ibuprofen because heroin is bad.

*Apart from Sweden which does have a high rate of infections/ deaths and has taken basically no action whatsoever.

** It is possible that UK climbers/ walkers/ golfists etc behave and interact differently. Are UK climbers more prone to honeypotting? We do have a very high population density.

Thank you...

Here in the US it varies by state and county. This is my local county's guidance which specifically mentions climbing.

"We understand the need to get outside during these times of quarantine and social distancing, and therefore the parks, trails, and outdoor restroom facilities will remain open for public use. However, with increased numbers of individuals out at the parks, we ask that you please keep the community safe by following the same guidelines as other public spaces:

DO NOT visit parks and public areas if sick; stay home, seek medical care

DO NOT gather in groups larger than 4

Practice social distancing of at least 6’ in parks, trailheads, trails, and climbing crags"

To be clear I'd still say going to a specific country to climb (international travel for leisure) is about the worst thing one could do at the moment. 

I'm think we're unlikely to learn much from the US since daily infections and deaths may still be rising in many states but lockdowns are reportedly already being eased. From the outside it doesn't look like there's much hope for America getting this under control. Hope it turns out OK where you are though...

I haven't found data for infections/ deaths by state over time though, so not sure.

If there are some states that go for moderate re-opening e.g. allowing outdoor activities like hiking and climbing and small groups but no churches, nail salons, beaches etc then it might be interesting to watch over time.

From my FB contacts, climbing in Germany began about a week ago, and in Kalymnos today. France hopefully it will be Monday; small steps - though in the right direction,

Chris

Mountaineering in the Bavarian Alps is also allowed again as of today, but travelling from the UK is unfortunately still off limits!

CB

It seems to me some people see the lockdown / restrictions as something to try and get around. Like, "I know they're there, but they don't apply to me, so how do I circumvent them".

It's like the rest of us are staying in because we like it!!

It's really very strange.

Unfortunately, for the majority of us, climbing (like eg fishing, hill walking etc) all involve long car journeys.  The reduced rate of RTAs also has to be factored in and is likely much more significant than the activities themselves 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Hows the UK doing? 😉😉 not sure you're in a position to lecture...

A week on Monday....Harpur Hill? It would be nice; same old caf, same old routes, same old culprits. That would do for me. See you there!!

Climbing in Germany never stopped.

But some crags where it is easy to accumulate large groups were closed (gyms as well, of course). This could include most of the Frankenjura and northern Germany...

And no groups larger than 2p, and social distancing.

Everything depends a bit on the regional government though. Here it was about 5% of the crags.

Don't believe I was lecturing anyone, simply point out some home truths.

The idea of a group of four is as daft as a group of ten for me, unless there's a decent test or you are living with the group of four anyway, then is just daft.

Africa, and Russia are only just getting started, but the US seems to be hell-bent on fighting for their rights to get infected.

I meant US state over time. They have the data over time for eight states e.g. Florida but for most they just show the latest totals which doesn't let you see what the trend is.

4 certainly feels safer than the group of 200 I gather with at the supermarket.

I'd be very surprised if road accidents have a significant impact on transmission. However if they do the effect should show in the countries which ease lockdown to allow outdoor activities after a few weeks.

RTAs are unlikely to have much effect on transmission but they do result in serious injuries or fatalities in their own right and engage a lot of front line emergency services.

That's before we get onto air quality. 

I wouldn't suggest a group of anything at the moment in the UK. But after a while we need to start coming up with a way to ease things up. If data from other countries suggests that allowing people to meet in small groups or pairs doesn't cause R0 to go above 1 then it should be something to consider.

You mean the virus doesn't obey Putin's orders!?

You need to find another supermarket.

You seem to have an obsession with RTAs. If you aren't concerned about the impact on transmission, what you've written above kind of implies that we shouldn't drive to go climbing (or for any other 'non-essential' reason) at all. Clearly that's not very practical.

I very much doubt that climbing related journeys result in many RTAs which require the emergency services to attend. Particularly given that the roads are relatively quiet at the moment and on most climbing journeys a lot of (often most) of the time is spent on motorways and dual carriageways, which are the safest roads. now breakdowns, there will be a few of those, particularly due to some climbers driving clapped out old bangers. There is then the risk of transmission to one or two others if you need recovering but again the incidence of this will not be that high in the scheme of things.

To be fair, there is a risk of transmission if emergency services need to attend and also if you end up in hospital. There would also be additional strain on the NHS, although if anything reports suggest that non-Covid A&E is relatively quiet and there is plenty of ICU capacity should that be required. Obviously I'm not saying let's all go and have an accident and end up in hospital but I think the dial has shifted on this somewhat from where we were a few weeks back. As long as people drive sensibly, I don't think it's more of an issue than it is at any other time.

There are some good reasons to refrain from climbing at the moment but I really don't think that the risk of RTAs is one of them.

Being able to 'exercise' with at least one other non-household member will be key. Hopefully the government will recognise that the risk of transmission in an outdoor environment with only one other person near you will be sufficiently low for it to be allowed (considering also that a large proportion of the population won't really be interested in this anyway - although they may be interested in things like sunbathing and having picnics and BBQs with a few friends).

I think what some people don't quite appreciate is that the exit strategy is not about ensuring zero risk of transmission. Even the lockdown isn't about zero risk (which is impossible anyway), otherwise it would be a lot stricter, like in Spain. The aim is to keep R below 1 (preferably well below 1) and so the government is looking at what relaxations would be feasible without prejudicing that aim. Hopefully relaxing the rules on exercise would fall within the range of measures which can be taken while keeping R where it needs to be.

I'm not expecting any relaxation before 1 June though (this has been my working assumption since we went into lockdown). Given the relatively high number of daily new cases (albeit partly due to more testing) and how slowly the number of new hospital admissions and the number of people in hospital with Covid outside London is falling, I'm a bit concerned that we might not see much of a relaxation on 1 June either. However that's almost four weeks away, so let's hope things improve significantly over that time (and not just because we want to go climbing).

I am concerned by transmission but acknowledge that climbing probably isn't a big risk here.

The main issue for people otherwise being reasonably responsible at the moment is not endangering or unnecessarily tying up emergency services.

Air pollution is of some concern right now, obviously, because it's a severe respiratory disease we are combatting .  In the longer run, however, our car usage model isn't an environmentally sustainable model in any case. Climbing for most of us is simply not 'green's.

So which countries actually have statistics on the number of infections caused by climbing, outdoor chess, bowls, archery, tennis etc etc? Just saying climbing was allowed in country X and they have lower infection rates than country Y means absolutely nothing at all. There is no climbing in Holland.

Norway acted early and shut it's borders, so everyone can scratch that possibility from their list. I'm not expecting to leave Norway anytime soon. Seems common sense that there will be zero likelihood of any foreign tourism to Norway until the covid-19 situation at the origin of travel is well under control.

In principle I agree with you. However, when I started typing this, there were 12 Likes and 9 Dislikes for the OP. I think one disliker has since replied giving a reason. If the other 8 replied then that might distract from the thread. On the other hand you may have a point in that stating their reason might actually correspond with another disliker's viewpoint (negating the need for an extra post, and another disliker could then give them a Like). In fact some of the other dislikers may already have replied giving their viewpoint, but we don't know they were original dislikers.

Perhaps it might help if Dislike was the default and one had to opt in to get the feature.

However posts about the Dislike button seem a frequent topic that people like to discuss, though still outnumbered by the threads on CV, Brexit and Grigri vs tube etc. 

 Apologies for distracting from the thread myself !

And of course if each "disliker" responds by penning a response instead of simply pressing a button, then some people will "dislike" these responses and also post a response.  And some people will dislike the responses to the responses and post their own responses.  All of a sudden we have exponential growth and a D0 figure through the roof.  To cope the thread will need to be locked until it's judged that enough people have forgotten what the topic was about that thread can be reopened.  Then only a few posts will be able to added, with a time distance of at least 2mins between posts.

Or to put it another way, those that insist people should be forced to respond to everything that they otherwise would just press the dislike button for, haven't really thought it through.

Alternatively just get rid of the dislike button.  I know this suggestion will garner a stack of dislikes, but rather than pressing the button it would be good if you supplied reasons for the dislikes.

Sorry, you've lost me there. Are you liking (or disliking) likes (or dislikes), Brexit, gri-gris, CV, the OP or something else altogether?

I'm always amazed by how much significance people cive to likes and dislikes.  I'm sure half the time they're fat thumb button presses in any case.

No you can't, that's a totally misleading statement

Sorry the if first paragraph isn't clear, probably due to my ponderous writing. I don't think I'd explain it better a second time, though it might be clarified by splitting the first paragraph into individual sentences. Basically I was suggesting pros and cons if Dislikers also posted an explanation for their dislike.

The sentence including Brexit etc was a bit frivolous. My intended point was that the UKC Dislike feature has itself provided a (popular?) topic of discussion on many occasions.

That's basically 99% of the internet.

I agree we can't be specific about particular activities or make one on one comparisons. But if several countries do allow outdoor recreation and don't see a noticeable rise in infections after several weeks then it seems likely those activities aren't a major factor in driving the spread. It's not exactly good scientific method but its the only way we're actually going to start to figure out which restrictions are likely to be effective and which aren't. We'd be waiting years or decades if we want perfect studies and consensus about the effect of each activity on transmission. I don't think I've mentioned Holland...

The thing is we don't know yet. If climbing and similar outdoor activities are allowed it follows everyone in the country is allowed to a) meet someone outside their household b) travel to the countryside to take part in recreational activity (not the same as essential exercise). It's far from clear whether this will have a negligible impact on spread vs other relaxations like opening schools, bars, etc. That's why I'm interested in what happens in other countries where the infection is present but at a lower level with lots of testing and where different approaches to easing lockdown are being tried.

It's more accurate to track contact infections if you want to know which restrictions are effective. I mentioned Holland to illustrate that a list of countries which prohibited climbing (there are very few) is meaningless, whether Holland made climbing outdoors illegal or not makes no difference to the number of infections. You can see how this works in Germany which has a hotch-potch of different rules, Bavaria which had the strongest rules making climbing difficult is a virus hot-spot, Hamburg where there is no climbing is also one.

We will just have to wait and see, as pointed out above if one category is exempted the rest can justifiably feel resentment, this has already occured in a number of climbing areas resulting in closure or draconian policing. It's hard for a local mayor faced with an irate local parent who can't take his little kids to the swings when a group of climbers are camped up at a climbing area for days and having their fun and ignoring the rules AND recommendations.

https://magicseaweed.com/news/the-great-australian-coronavirus-surfing-expe...

Interesting view from another sport, not sure what conclusions to draw from it other thank Australia has handled this much better than the UK overall.

This is an article from the Polish side wspinanie.pl ( climbing.pl ) From April 19. 2020. 

From Monday, April 20, new rules will apply to combat the COVID-19 epidemic.  There is good news - a trip to the rocks is already legal!

 The Journal of Laws published a regulation of the Council of Ministers regarding restrictions, orders and prohibitions in force since April 20, which says that:

 - forest areas will be open (there is no obligation to use nose and mouth covers, except for forest car parks);

 - the ban on moving within the territory of the Republic of Poland was lifted; 

- the order to maintain a 2-meter distance is maintained when walking;

 - the injunction to cover the nose and mouth is kept in public areas except for forests;

 - the ban on meetings with the exception of the family and persons with whom he is living together is maintained.

 As you can see, you can go to the rocks from anywhere in Poland.  In forest sectors, we do not need to wear masks, the obligation to wear them appears in open areas.

 Restriction occurs when a team is created, our partner should be a family member or cohabitation.

Source: g.ekspert.infor.pl

I can certainly understand that. If climbing was allowed and someone taking their kids to the park wasn't that would be blatantly unfair. I'd rather we treat all recreational activities which involve a similar level of interaction between people the same. I've tried to avoid focussing on just climbing, but rather on lockdowns which allow some level of outdoor recreation. As you point out we have no chance of working out what effect climbing (specifically) has from the data anyway.

I just don't support the view that we should treat everything the same (*edit regardless of the level of interaction and number of people required). Clearly some things; outdoor climbing, golf, fishing, horse riding, ought to be less of a problem than team sports like football or rugby which ought to be less of a problem than church services or indoor climbing.

I still think its probably too early for any of the above here but other countries are further ahead and we might be able to learn something from what happens in them.

Just in case anyone's curious what "relaxing lockdown" means for mountaineering here in the Veneto, NE Italy. Since Monday, we can drive to the mountains...but only on our own. But there are rumours, and an article from the Italian Alpine Club, which has interpreted the new laws as meaning more than one person per car is OK, providing you can stay more than 1m away from each other! Ok if you've got a minibus I suppose. We can't leave the region and we have to fill in a government form declaring the nature of the journey...all a bit Orwellian. 
You can go rock climbing, but must respect the 1m distance rule...could lead to some interesting belay setups!
Anyhow, we've been "let off the leash" since Monday, so tomorrow I'm off up Marmolada ski-touring. Me n' 3 mates...in 3 separate cars!! Happy days!!

Infect to who? Wasn't that the point, that it's not just you and you passengers, whose health you are risking?

I don't think anyone would really care if it was just you and you climbing partner, but it isn't, is it.

Should the worst happen (how ever slight that might be) and you need MRT help, then they have to get to you individually, as they can't travel in the same vehicle.

So much for the environmental befits we've had during lockdown then, boosh!!

Which is fair enough. Not a bad place to be ‘stuck’ though!

Yes I meant risk of infection both ways and also between the emergency workers themselves. 

I was responding to GrahamD specifically regarding RTAs. My point was the number of climbing related RTAs is going to be negligible in the scheme of things even in normal times.

As I said, there are good reasons for not climbing at the moment but the risk of RTAs isn’t one of them.
 

Actually for the competent the risk of a climbing accident requiring MRT / emergency services / NHS assistance is also negligible, especially with sport climbing and wearing a helmet. Of course a lot of people aren’t competent... That’s a separate discussion through.

As I’ve said on other threads, to my mind the main reason for not climbing now is actually the risk of damaging relations with locals, landowners and the authorities.

It's not just your risk though is it? Which is the point Cuomo made a couple of weeks ago, "it's not about the ME it's about the WE".

You're also suggesting accidents only happen to incompetent people. I admire your confidence, but confidence isn't a shield to all accidents.

It's the risk for me and my climbing partner when we go climbing. I'm confident that both I and my regular climbing partners have sufficient experience to mitigate the risk down to a negligible level. That's what I do all the time anyway but in the current situation I would be even more risk averse, for example opting for sport climbing, well protected trad or top roping projects rather than some crumbling Gogarth South Stack horror show.

Plenty of other people out there are also perfectly capable of mitigating risk down to a negligible level. However the reality is that some people do not (yet) have sufficient experience to be able to do that. If someone isn't sure, they should refrain.

You are right that accidents can happen to people who are experienced. However I suspect that almost all serious accidents will be in the lower grades, partly because that's the majority of the climbing population and partly because these climbers are less experienced. You don't really hear about people operating in the mid to high E grades having accidents. Sport climbing accidents are very rare (though a helmet is always a good idea just in case). Top roping could remove almost all risk (assuming the belayer is competent and the anchor is set up properly - of course a degree of competence is required there, as with everything in climbing).

So I think it's wrong to simply say that people can't go climbing because it's dangerous and accidents will happen. The reality is that some (many?) people should refrain from trad (and potentially all forms of climbing) until such time as the NHS and MRT are back to 'normal' (that might not be until summer 2022). In fact some people are accidents waiting to happen and should consider going with more experienced friends or hiring a guide / instructor even at the best of times. But there is certainly a subset of the climbing population who are perfectly capable of mitigating risk down to a negligible level.

(Just to be clear, I'm not climbing at the moment, the last climbing I did was an Alpine route on 15 March, just before the French lockdown. So this is a bit of a hypothetical discussion)

If you're happy to just do toproping, sport climbing and very well protected (throughout) routes then that's fine. I would point out that if trad climbing in general (not just the very well protected stuff) was as dangerous as some make out, very few of us would do it. It also seems a bit demeaning to suggest that you can assess risk better than most. Of course, being experienced helps, but it should surely be a personal choice whether any one person starts climbing again once restrictions are lifted, and each can and should make their own judgement about whether they're happy to do so, knowing themselves the type of routes they may decide to go for.  

No that never happens. Emily Harrington? Brad Gobright? Marty Vogel?

And what about shit falling on top of you, me and a friend went climbing around Avon when an old TV size rock came hurtling through he trees, no amount of climbing prowess or experience would have stopped either or both of us needing hospital treatment, if it had travelled in a slightly different direction.

And while you're not climbing at present, post like these are, if not encouraging others, they are at least planting the seed that it might be OK. The problem being it might be planting the seed in th every people you say should use a guide.

Again though, my post isn't about the consequences for you, if you should be one of the negligible "accidents" it's about who has to come and help you and the manner in which they need to do it, it's a massive undertaking, bad enough normally but now!

Of course, everyone will make their own decisions. Unfortunately some people don’t make the right decisions. No one sets off up a route with the intention of having an accident or needing rescuing, yet it happens and a lot of the time it’s not due to objective risk such as a rock or a sheep falling on their head. Unfortunately the reality is some people don’t make sensible decisions and can overestimate their level of experience. You don’t know what you don’t know and proper risk assessment can only be done with sufficient knowledge and experience. I imagine most less experienced people will be sensible and dial things down - stick to sport rather than trad, single pitch on solid  well protected rock rather than adventurous mountain routes, going with a more experienced partner and so on. However inevitably some people will carry on as before.

Of course there are some famous climbers who end up having accidents but it’s rare and these are people who climb a hell of a lot. If I’ve got the right person, Brad Gobright died simul abseiling, which is an inherently risky technique (I’d say not to be used unless absolutely essential) which isn’t really used in the UK, so that’s not the best example anyway.

I was more thinking about the experienced people I know. The only noteworthy accidents I can think of is someone doing an ankle doing the crevasse jump onto the belay ledge in Bosigran Great Zawn (he climbed out up the route and hobbled back to the hut); and me slitting my leg when I slid down a short way while downclimbing on easy ground below High Tor while trying to clean/garden the unstable rock I was on (put a bandage on, drove to hospital and needed a few stitches, sorted in a manner of minutes). That’s in over 15 years of climbing. Both of these were entirely avoidable and not really something that would happen with people taking more care currently.

Totally agree about rockfall but that comes down to appropriate venue choice. Places like Avon and Wintour’s wouldn’t be high on my list. Sport climbing and single pitch well protected trad on solid rock like a lot of the grit routes is what I would be looking at to minimise risk.

I do think there are limited circumstances where climbing is ok at the moment (local, safe and discrete). 

We only hear about the famous ones, because they are famous, the every Joe Bloggs hardly gets a mention.

You then list a number of incidents, where you managed to walk out, but what if one of those was slightly worse? A compound fracture is a kick in the arse away from a twisted ankle.

I've never broken a bone or had stitches, it doesn't mean I'll never do it.

I've climbed next to someone who died, admitted ly I don't think she was E4 or E5 grade climber, but the VS she was on was well within her grade.

I've had a mate E3-4 climber disappear over an edge on a HVS, when he slipped and his gear ripped, he dislocated his finger, but that could have been anything, a dislocated finger was a LUCKY outcome.

To be honest, and I know your only talking hypothetically, but you sound like someone who tells you how it's OK for them to drive after four pints, "in fact I drive better, because I drive more carefully"!

I can't argue with any of that. Were you making any particular point?

I was just responding to your comment that it is demeaning to say that some people can’t risk assess properly. Unfortunately the reality is that some people can’t. They probably shouldn’t be climbing on their own at the best of times. 

Sorry to hear about those accidents.

Unfortunately some accidents will happen, that is the sad reality. I do think that most serious accidents happen to less experienced people. The reason is that most serious accidents in climbing will be associated with gear failing or not enough gear being placed to make the route reasonably safe. Experienced people know how to place gear properly and how much to place. They can also hang on longer to place as much as is needed. Clearly not all routes are safe in the first place but again more experienced people will ensure they have enough in hand to make sure they don’t fall where it matters. I’m sure you know all of this already.

Also the risk could be much reduced by sport climbing instead of doing trad.

Maybe, but then since as you say 'you don't know what you don't know', it's hard to see what could be done about it.

Re number of accidents. From the BMC paper (see other thread): in 2017 there were 52 rock climbing incidents and 559 hill walking ones based on MRT E&W info. Even assuming no accidents at all for 6 months of the year, that's an average of 2 rock climbing accidents a week. A number which could be reduced a lot further by people switching to sport and taking more care generally. Obviously the hill walking number is a lot higher but we're talking specifically about climbing here. Also a lot of the hill walking ones won't have required any NHS involvement as presumably 'incidents' includes people getting lost. On the whole though, general members of the public getting into a pickle hill walking is the real issue.

Yes, the rock climbing one is insignificant compared to the hillwalking one, and both are extremely low in the context of the number of people going out hillwalking. If it wasn't for coronavirus it wouldn't be an issue. And serious accidents can and do still occur from sport climbing!