UKH

I spent an enjoyable day at Rhoscolyn yesterday but was perturbed by the amount of new belay pegs placed at the top of the crag. There were about twelve pegs and they all had a piece of coloured tat on then, presumably to make finding them easier!

I know that finding a bombproof belay at the top here can take a bit of fiddling but some of the pegs were placed next to really good nut placements.

Certainly they made climbing very convenient but there have been many discussions on this forum regarding the deterioration of pegs on sea cliffs over time. The  Gogarth area has long been synonymous with adventurous trad climbing and these pegs do distract from this ethic.

In reply to mark hounslea:

Looking at the photo you posted they look 'resined' in, begs the question are they pegs or bolts?

In reply to Sl@te Head:

Some looked cemented in but some didn't. It could be that the cement was just hidden below the surface on the latter? I took pictures of 8 of them (all I noticed on a quick survey) that I will post soon.

In reply to mark hounslea:

Hi Mark. I think fixed belays on top of a crag right next to a popular walkers’ path are more an issue of aesthetics than ethics, much more so than fixed belays on a Gogarth multi-pitch. There’s been a useful belay bolt at the top of Rhoscolyn for years, often hidden under a tuft of turf. As you say natural belays are possible but difficult to arrange, I’ve had to nip down to my sack before to get extra pieces. Sometimes people take a rope through the dry stone wall to get belays in the field, obstructing the walkers’ path! On balance I think the pegs may be a positive addition (caveat of not having seen then) they are high enough to minimise the effects of salt water. I can’t understand the coloured tat; it should be removed to make the pegs less obvious from the path.

In reply to Sl@te Head:

Sorry, I am having problems uploading photos. UKC says they are all pictures of a Marmot sleeping bag and tells me not to submit duplicates. Alan James says it is a problem my end. I have tried clearing caches and refreshing everything but it persists. 

In reply to mark hounslea:

The pegs and the bolt have been removed by local climbers this afternoon.  

In reply to mark hounslea:

The bolt that was placed on agreement with the landowner to stop people belaying off the wall?

In reply to Alex Riley:

Oh snap

In reply to mark hounslea:

Hah, just as common sense was rearing its ugly head...

In reply to Alex Riley: Interesting point that Alex. Did the proposal go via the bmc area meeting before the bolt was placed? I thought that wasn’t the case. Protecting the stone wall is one issue, but preserving the style of the place is another.

In reply to Si Witcher:

One issue would cost money to repair and potentially lead to reduced climbing at the venue, the other issue would not.

In reply to jon:

I don’t recall being unable to build a belay with standard gear at Rhoscolyn. 

In reply to Misha:

Playing devils advocate slightly

In reply to mark hounslea:

As I understand it the obvious pegs with coloured tat have been removed but the more discrete pegs remain. Think of it as an Easter egg hunt!

In reply to Si Witcher:

Well if we need to protect the style of the place we should get rid of the abseil point on Castell Helen and get rid of all the convenience abseil tat at the top of Strand so folk don't have to walk around in tight shoes.

What makes Rhoscolyn unique is the belay position is right next to a very popular walking path and people do belay on or through the fragile dry stone wall, a trip wire across the path, both of which could seriously threaten access.  But I agree it is possible to set up natural belays, even if you have to nip back down to get spare gear off your mate for unique placements.

Some sort of consensus has worked over the years with the (semi) hidden bolt.  Some misguided person has placed the pegs and stupidly highlighted their presence with unnecessary coloured tat, then others have (over?) reacted by removing everything. (Edit: just seen Mark's comment about the more discrete pegs being left which is good) 

Can we rely on all climbers being sensible and adept in not belaying across the path and disturbing the wall?  Who knows, I hope so.

In reply to mark hounslea:

It is not necessary to have any bolts or pegs to belay from at Roscolyn. Climbers have managed for years using nuts and cams. There is an isolated discrete  bolt but many climbers don’t see it so manage without. I think the removal of these bolts/pegs is correct and an appropriate reaction. If someone thinks they are necessary they should raise it at the local BMC meeting and get agreement before placing them.

In reply to kevin stephens:

Some education and publicity might be more effective in encouraging climbers not to mess with the wall or block the footpath (where common sense is lacking)

Elfyn mentioned that there have been some issues along these lines when I queried the bolt last year, but the BMC RAD database still states "no access issues" at Rhoscolyn, so newcomers (with no common sense) will be no more informed now. I've just sent a suggested update in.

re getting rid of other fixed abseil gear elsewhere - if you feel strongly, as always, 'take it to the area meeting'...

In reply to kevin stephens:

As you say, some sort of consensus has existed here for years, so why the sudden need for a change, without consultation.

Its a popular crag so the belays haven’t put a lot of people off.

It’s hardly a novices crag so I would expect climbers going there can build a belay with trad gear. I also think the use of the wall to belay is something of an urban myth.

Its not unique in having a popular path where you belay, the same can be said for parts of yellow walls.

In reply to Martin Haworth:

Only 3 pegs

Rhoscolyn

As Martin points out, with some basic equalising you can get belays using wires and slings for all routes without putting gear in to the wall, pegs are a bonus.

I was there today walking with my wife and could find only 3 pegs, I did spend half an hour looking from all angles and even laying down to see if I could spot them, maybe some have been pulled out since Marks posting last week?

Of the three I found, one is a rusting blade peg and 2 are good condition, all in crack lines. There is a rust mark from old pegs in crack at top of Icarus adjacent to one of the good pegs. I saw no bolt that has previously been the topic of previous debate on UKC.

As long as we respect the farmers wall and don't trip up the walkers we should keep unrestricted access to this gem of a crag.

In reply to mark hounslea:

In addition to the 'discreet' bolt there used to be 2 pegs at the top of Llawder. They disintegrated some time ago.

Someone on this thread has suggested that inexperienced climbers don't go there. Not true.On many occasions over the years I've witnessed very poor belay setting there. On some of those occasions I've intervened and offered to improve the belay. I've always been reluctant to do that but on those occasions I have intervened I've thought there was a high risk of serious injury or death should 5he second fall. Many of my climbing partners have experienced similar scenarios there.

I think there is a good case for having a number of discreet belay pegs at the top there, where adequate natural placements are difficult to arrange. I do accept that it is possible to construct an adequate belay at the top of all the routes there but not everyone who climbs there has the ability/experience/patience to do so.

In reply to pete johnson:

You get a like for 'discreet'

In reply to pete johnson:

I'm not sure that because it is difficult to build a belay we should resort to putting in bolts or pegs, this would lead to fixed gear at a lot of crags.

If there is a history of some pegs at the top of the crag and some people think they are necessary then shouldn't it be discussed and agreed at a BMC meeting?

In reply to Martin Haworth:

Yes I agree it should be discussed at local BMC meet. Not sure a consensus will be reached....

In reply to pete johnson:

But the BMC policy on fixed pitons makes that a non-starter........

In reply to pete johnson:

You are probably right that a consensus won’t be reached. The BMC doesn’t seem to show strong leadership on this issue.

Anyway, it sounds like there are now 3 pegs which are quite discreet, I expect most people will accept that. 

Half the climbers will be very grateful and clip them, the other half of us will mutter about them not being necessary... then clip them!

In reply to Martin Haworth:

And the third half won't be able to find them

In reply to Martin Haworth:

I think if the belays are really awful, or there's some other issue, it's a good idea. But the belays at Rhoscolyn are (or were!) just a bit fiddly. Last time I argued that the bolt wasn't the thin edge of the wedge, maybe I'd better find an appetising hat?

In reply to mark hounslea:

I've mentioned this previously as a possible solution, but it wasn't well received last time, maybe a better description of what I mean would help...

It would be possible to create some drilled 'threads', basically  creating some small holes (just big enough to thread a sling through). These threads would be in keeping with the trad rigging but would basically add a few more placements / options. They would be well hidden amongst the natural crevices leaving nothing visible behind i.e. no insitu 'tat'. These holes wouldn't be visible to the general public and if done with care would look reasonably natural and visually acceptable. Nothing left behind other than a handful of holes i.e. no rusting pegs, resin, bolts etc. 

In reply to Sl@te Head:

That's a great idea -  as long as you make it look natural and don't tell anyone. 

D'oh!

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I won't be doing it, but it's an idea that could be put forward at the next BMC meeting as a possible solution....

In reply to Sl@te Head:

Sounds a great solution - invisible to all except the climber looking for them, no corrosion problems. The only thing that could go wrong is some do-gooder filling the holes with Sika...

In reply to mark hounslea:

No need for any fixed gear. Never had a problem there unlike many other places. 

In reply to mark hounslea:

I climbed there last week. The pegs were so discreet I *didnt even see them* when setting up a couple of belays, and only noticed later when another party had set up a belay on them. Since then tat seems to have been added in order to make visible, and then they’ve mostly been removed. 

So it’s not really an issue of “aesthetics” as the pegs were not just discreet, but practically invisible (pre tat). That leaves only the “ethics” question. Personally I find the aversion to peg/bolt belays incomprehensible - yes I want to do traditionally protected *climbing*, but why belays (ie when the climbing is DONE) must not have fixed gear, no matter how discreet, seems to me mysterious. When there isn’t good natural pro (and Rhoscolyn is often difficult especially if you haven’t climbed there before) insisting that both leader and second risk death “because ethics” is baffling to me. Especially as bolts/pegs are apparently “against ethics” but huge reams of sunbleached ropes apparently aren’t  

Conclusion: there’s no consistency to the “ethics” debate, people just have prejudices one way or the other (probably depending on whether they hate sport climbing and remember the 80s or not) and try to rationalise them after the fact by whatever means necessary 

below this comment you will soon find the same points you’ve already read on UKC a hundred times, repeated ad nauseam. Maybe we could all just talk about Brexit for a change?

In reply to Martin Haworth:

Is that actually their role? Surely all they can really do is facilitate discussions and publicise the outcomes of those discussions. If no broad consensus exists, the BMC can't create one.

How do you think they should be showing strong leadership?

In reply to Sl@te Head:

You could even design and build some sort of chloride resistant, stainless steel fixing to use in the holes to make them easier to clip. 

Oh, wait... 

In reply to Paul Sagar:

I don't remember the 80's (in fact I wasn't even born then), but part of the beauty of trad climbing is the self-sufficiency aspect; relying only what's on your rack to get you and your partner up the route. If I just wanted straight up simple climbing, I might as well go clipping bolts (nothing wrong with sport climbing by the way, it's just fundamentally different to trad)

Climbing isn't 'DONE' when the leader is at the top - being able to build the belay is just as much part of the climbing as anything. I've only climbed at Rhoscolyn once (and it was probably on a different part of the crag since I don't remember there being a wall) and building a belay was fiddly, but entirely possible only using removable gear (and, according to quite a few posters, the situation is similar in the area with the pegs).

Do you know what else has been repeated ad-nauseaum? That Rhoscolyn isn't a suitable venue for beginners. There's literally dozens of better venues for beginners all within an hour's drive - why not go and build up your experience at them instead of bringing down Rhoscolyn (or any of the other crags where this is an issue) to your level.

I'm a beginner as well, so I'm including myself in everything I've said. I wouldn't even dream of starting bashing pegs and bolts at the top of every bit of rock with fiddly gear.

In reply to Luke90:

You're right on this one Luke, the BMC isn't there to tell climbers what to do on UK crags (or hillwalkers on UK hills), it is simply a useful tool to facilitate discussions, protect/ enhance access and act in the common interest of those who participate/ wish to participate in the activities and the communities surrounding them (https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmc-specialist-committees).

Disparate groups of climbers/ individuals would not have the clout to push the interests of the wider community (partly because there would be no mechanism to communicate agreements out to the wider community, partly because there would be no mechanism for a concensus about local/ national issues to be reached), I strongly suspect that none of the work done by the specialist committees would get done without something like the BMC supporting it.

I hope you enjoyed Stoney yesterday, I've got a good dose of grit rash from Saturday!

In reply to asteclaru:

I understand your point which is well made but as is often the case climbers apply double standards. Ethics is one thing but when faced with an arduous slog up the hill in painful rock shoes after climbing the Strand, or abbing off the masses of unsightly pre placed tat it’s a no brainier for most. Pegs have long been used at Gogarth for runners and belays, it’s just those nearer the sea disintegrate over time, and become dangerous much sooner. Applying ethics dogmatically there’s nothing my to stop Rhoscolyn climbers placing then removing their own belay pegs, thank goodness that doesn’t happen. I’ve always been able to build my own belays at Rhoscolyn but I wouldn’t be averse to a few discrete pegs. If we were talking stakes rather than pegs this debate probably wouldn’t be taking place, but stakes set back from the crag would be more of an issue for the path walkers with whom we share access to this magical place

In reply to kevin stephens:

I don't necessarily agree with 'masses of unsightly pre placed tat' either: I think climbers should check the tat already in place and replace it if it's not suitable anymore. Or, better yet, bring your own tat and remove it after climbing the route. I definitely don't want everyone just mindlessly adding tat over older bits of that.

And regarding your second point: It's my understanding that pegs have been used on pretty much every route before wires and cams have become the go-to protection method, so we could make that argument for pretty much anywhere. Should we return to pegs because some climbers can't find less intrusive placements? I don't think so.

In reply to asteclaru:

The point is the tat shouldn’t be there, years ago folk were happy to walk up and round. I’m all for higher standards but they should be applied uniformly 

In reply to kevin stephens:

Is the bolt explained in the guidebooks? Otherwise that seems a bit ridiculous - if you are "in the know" you can use it and have a good belay/not use anything inappropriate; if you're a first time visitor you might end up with a poor belay/using something inappropriate.

In reply to mark hounslea:

I think what is interesting here is that the problems associated with equipping top outs on crags has never been properly addressed actually. What normally happens is a few slings are put around the nearest old tree and everyone is happy and says no more. Unfortunately there are no trees on the top of Roscolyn. so what we gonna do hey? 

As a life long tree surgeon and general tree hugger I am often appalled at the  way such an approach with no thought of the consequences other than not upsetting the climbing community is causing the obvious decline and ultimate death of so many of the very unique and often very old trees growing on and around our crags.

Examples, top of Tremadoc where the ancient oaks are showing severe symptoms of dieback from years of root compaction by climbers abbing off. A totally selfish and thoughtless practice. Many of our crags are entirely dependant on trees for escape.  I recently had to remove a very large oak tree from the top of Mather Crack, dead,  as a result of us climbers.

Come on ffs lets address this problem now and stop using trees as a way to throw the ball into long grass.

Bolt, stake or peg got to be better than systematically rubbing out some of the most unique trees around and just delaying the problem until we have managed to wipe the lot out !!! 

In reply to asteclaru:

Nope - that wasn't the case. When pitons were occasionally used in the UK in the earlier decades of climbing, they could be very controversial and were sometimes removed.

In reply to Paul Sagar:

I also find this approach utterly incomprehensible. A well placed belay bolt (or peg) is far less obtrusive than a UV damaged pile of grotty old rope.

In reply to ianstevens:

Efiks innit? + Tradition.

All the same Paul Sagar's position seems a bit odd too - he doesn't want fixed gear on the route but does at the top? I don't really see what makes the top of the climb that different to the rest of it.

In reply to TobyA:

Apart from the fact that requiring trad gear on the top could (by the sound of it) mean belay ropes being a trip hazard to passing walkers, or threatening access for all by seeing the wall used as part of a belay.  It's a very long time since I was at Rhoscolyn so I have no idea how serious or how inevitable either of those risks are, nor how easy or effective it would be to educate climbers not to belay inappropriately. But I can see why some may see the top of certain cliffs to be a justified exception to the norm.

In reply to TobyA:

It’s because the top of the climb is not the climb, it is a walkers foot path 

In reply to ianstevens:

Again, why is a 'UV damaged pile of grotty old rope' left behind? Why don't climbers take their tat with them when they leave, as they would with wires or cams?

In reply to asteclaru:

Usually because they abseil off it

In reply to kevin stephens:

But Paul's point was a general one, or at least that's how I read it.

In reply to asteclaru:

Tat is used as the term for something you leave behind. 

In reply to TobyA:

Yes it is, in Gogarth South (2015)

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/rocktalk/belay_bolt_for_the_sun_rhoscolyn...

In reply to TobyA:

Fair point but every case is different 

In reply to kevin stephens:

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but several people on this thread have made the point that the pegs (which, if I understand correctly, are at the top of the cliff, next to a walking path) are less intrusive than piles of old tat. If this tat is next to a walking path, why don't climbers take it with them when they leave?

In reply to TobyA:

I'm of a similar mindset to him - natural protection where possible, good quality fixed gear where it isn't. At Rhoscolyn the gear for belay building is fine, and fixed gear isn't really required, but other lower offs (many of the trees at Tremadog for example) could be improved. In the same fashion as Paul, I don't go climbing to risk my neck becasue of shit belays.

In reply to kevin stephens:

And what do they do after abseiling to the start of the route? Swim to Ireland?

In reply to asteclaru:

Well this is part of the point. At Rhoscolyn, you finish at the top, so there is zero reason to leave any tat. At most other crags (i.e. non sea cliffs) you start and finsih at the bottom - often abseiling off tat you can't remove once you're back at the other end of the crag. I believe the point about tat was more general than Rhoscolyn - where tat can't be removed for the reasons above, why is this more acceptable than a good bolt? The latter is safer, lasts longer and more discreet. 

In reply to asteclaru:

I was using the Strand example to highlight double standards. To approach the bottom is a short scramble down and short walk. After finishing the route there is a (relatively) long and steep slog up a hill then longer walk back to the gearing up place. Hence the ab tat at the end of the climbing has grown purely for convenience sake

In reply to ianstevens:

I was only referring to the tat at Rhoscolyn. I understand the point about abseil tat on a mountain crag, however, I would argue that even in that case, old tat that is not safe to use anymore could easily be removed by subsequent climbing parties, whereas a bolt or a peg will leave its mark forever.

In reply to kevin stephens:

And I agree with your point.

We shouldn't be placing bolts/pegs OR leave in-situ abseil tat for convenience.

If you absolutely have to bail on a route, then it's acceptable to leave some gear behind , but if you can walk back to your starting point, then you should take your s**t with you.

In reply to asteclaru:

The tat you are thinking of was at the top of the Strand (different route, different place) The only tat anyone has mentioned at Rhoscolyn was actually on the pegs.

In reply to Luke90:

By having a clear policy on the Installation/use of fixed equipment that all can access and can serve as a template for BMC Area discussions?

In reply to kevin stephens:

But in this instance - you don't.

In reply to Paul Sagar:

So we should have a double bolt belay at the top of every route in case someone find it 'difficult' to arrange one with the gear they are already carrying?  

You want to climb 'trad' but the 'route' ends as you top out and trad ethics cease at that point?

And referring to a lack of 'good natural pro' is muddying the water.  We are NOT talking about protection; we are talking about anchors.  If you can't find an anchor no-one HAS to die.   

In reply to Sl@te Head:

Makes perfect sense to me.

As an alternative suggestion we could perhaps also solve the problem the time honoured and traditional way, tried and tested on some of the world's finest cliffs. How about next time I'm in N Wales I'll go and place some pegs, you can take them straight back out again, hand them back and we can just repeat the process for the whole afternoon until we end up with a dozen perfect wire placements in the resulting peg scars.

Obviously this is the only ethically pure solution to dealing with this whole convoluted, incessantly recurring and frankly rather silly debate

In reply to the topic. 

I fear the tail of opinion and ethics is wagging the dog here and we need to ask ourselves what is most important, the ethics or the crag? 

Clearly the top of Rhoscolyn has a number of key users; walkers, the farmer and climbers to name three. Getting stuck within our own self importance and compromising the needs of the others can only harm us. A tripped and injured walker and a damaged wall is not going to help and could even lead to compromised access. Where do your ethics stand then, when you are staring longingly at a long lost wall? 

I recognise this is taking things to an extreme but it is not beyond belief. 

In reply to Andy Say:

The point I'm trying to make is that the BMC aren't dictators and that's as it should be. When a clear consensus exists amongst most climbers, the BMC can help to discern that consensus, codify it into policy and publish/publicise the policy. When the climbing community is broadly split on an issue, as this thread suggests it might be, the BMC don't have the authority to step in and impose a policy. That's not their role.

In reply to Presley Whippet:

The gear placements at the top of Llawder leave plenty of room between them and the wall, the path is close to the wall, so the ropes aren't a trip hazard.

There is the usual stretching of the reality (by both sides) on this topic.

I admit that I tend to be "anti" bolt, or at least the introduction of new bolts, but I accept there are exceptions where new fixed gear might be the best solution. At Llawder, climbers seem to have managed for a number of years with belays from nuts and cams, and one bolt/peg(if you can find it). So to me the question is what has changed to make new fixed gear necessary:

Has the farmer had an issue? Has someone had an accident? Has local policy regarding fixed belays changed? Have users of the path complained? Has a new local climber/instructor/group decided they want an safer belay option? Has a good placement at the top become damaged?

Regardless of all this, as I understand there are now three discreet pieces of fixed gear, the rest have been removed by local climbers, so maybe a concensus has been reached that is acceptable to the majority.

In reply to Luke90:

Luke, yes I think agree. What I meant was that in order to reach a consensus we need someone to facilitate, and the BMC seem the obvious group.

Overall I think the BMC do a good job on areas such as conservation and with things like the RAD, I'm not so sure they are quite so hot on fixed gear but I expect someone will come along and correct me. I guess it is probably a long way down their list of priorities, whereas it is very high up the list of emotive topics for some climbers.

In reply to mark hounslea:

This is turning into a sanctimonious ethical storm in a tea cup over three hard to spot pegs.  Let's chop the ab points on Castell Helen and be done with it 

In reply to mark hounslea:

At crags where gear is available to be placed, what does anyone gain from having fixed belays? There's a small time and effort saving in not having to construct a belay, but the skillset to create safe belays from the placements available is eroded. The climbing is only half done when the leader tops out, and there's no rule which says belays need to be convenient affairs. So what if it takes you ten minutes and five pieces of gear to construct an adequate belay? It's part of the route.

In reply to Martin Haworth:

I agree. People seem to have managed just fine without these pegs. I don’t recall ever having a realm issue with setting up a belay there - tricky doesn’t mean impossible. I’d have thought there is a much better case for replacing the rusty stakes at the top of Yellow Wall for example.