UKH

People have been arrested in Kent for having climbing gear and a protest banner in their car. In this case it is likely they were on their way to a protest and the rights and wrongs of that have been discussed at length.

However, take away the protest banner and the article describes what I have in my car on a regular basis (on the M25 and everywhere else), harness ropes and other climbing equipment (bottle of urine not so much). It lives in my car pretty much full time so I don't even have the "I'm on my way to climbing defence".

I'm a law abiding person. I have never been pulled over by the police, but if I was, I'm not sure I would expect a police officer to know the difference between recreational climbing gear and stuff that could be used for a protest (infact looking at the picture in the article, there isn't much difference). Could I be at risk of arrest because I'm a climber? Do I need to change my behaviour to protect myself from police action?

Just a heads up, that in todays world you may be commiting an offence by transporting your climbing gear. (Obvious exaggeration for effect, but it doesn't feel far from that).

https://metro.co.uk/2022/11/11/5-arrested-as-car-taking-just-stop-oil-activ...

Better leave your camera at home too...

youtube.com/watch?v=avWcQwGhMiA&

You haven't even got a press card, so you'd definitely be in trouble.

Perhaps you need to carry your BMC card around to prove your credentials…oh wait a minute. 

Bugger, hadn't thought of that. Might need to shave too, would look less "protesty" that way too!

Would have thought the Venn diagram of protesters kit -v- climbing kit would have a fairly small intersection of harness, ropes and slings in most cases, maybe some ascenders, if looking at large bridges.

I wouldn't be carrying locks, banners or pee bottles and protesters probably won't be carrying wall membership cards, chalk bags, rock boots or trad gear and guidebooks.

However, as you say, not sure the average officer is going to be able to tell the difference, but what's the likelihood of you being pulled over in first place? I would hope they had other intel on the car/occupants before the stop, but maybe they just clocked the lady with the pink hair?

Perhaps you just need to start driving around in a large gas-guzzler to avoid any unwanted attention...

There's definitely a precedent in terms of knife carrying here - unless you're on your way to a knife-using activity you're going to get done if you have one in your car. Of course, the people caught for that are normally targeted, but still, if you were caught in a 'routine stop' you could be done, especially if it's a routine stop designed to find someone with climbing gear.  A potential defence would be if you don't have associated 'stay alive in all weathers' gear in the car - a protester would have the climbing gear plus clothing for a long stint.

Without getting into the rights and wrongs of these protests and the heavy-handed policing of protests, did you think that perhaps your circumstances might be different when writing your clickbait thread title? Maybe it's relevant that the car contained a big Just Stop Oil banner and was heading towards the site of a planned protest shortly before said protest was due to begin?

I agree, however I'm not sure that your average police officer would recognise ascenders vs a bunch of quickdraws, it's all climbing equipment to them. I had assumed the protesters would be using industrial harnesses and fall arrest systems but in the photo in the article it looks like a sit harness.

It's funny you mentioned pink hair, litrelly shared this link to a climbing friend who is travelling on the M25 today on their way for a week of climbing and she has red hair...

Obviously that’s not the case but I’m still concerned that in todays world you can be arrested for going to a protest, what legislation is being used?

The thought police in action, arrested before committing an offence, which they seem unable to do when it involves stalkers, child abusers or various other people "known" to the police.

This is the thrust of my post really.

I'm a climber, in my boot I have climbing equipment and reasonable outdoor clothing. As I'm sure a lot of us do. To take your post as written we, as climbers, have a legal responsibility to cover ourselves against action by the police despsite not breaking any laws.

The knife analogy falls down a bit, as knives are legislated against. I have a less than 3in non locking blade knife on my keyring, there is nothing the police can do about that I can legally carry without good reason. If I had a blade longer than 3in or one that locked, UK law states I must have a reasonable reason for having it. This is mandated by legistlation and I am protected by the law in this case.

There is no such legal framework for carrying climbing gear, and this leaves it a bit "wild west".

I'm not a lawyer but an injunction has been granted in respect to protests on the M25 and I think this may give police extra powers?

Not quite accurate. You need 'a reasonable excuse' to have a knife with you (in or outside of a car.)

A pen knife in a first aid kit, in the boot - reasonable. A machete in the door pocket, might take some explaining. A machete in the boot along with gardening stuff, on your way to tackle a rowdy allotment, possibly ok.

I'd have thought they might get a warning first 'go that direction and you'll be nicked'. Its not clear if that was the case. Also, it not clear if the folk involved incriminated themselves. I hope we're not moving in the direction of thought crime for non violent offences. But equally, if there was a guy parked outside a bank, with a balaclava and note that said 'gimme the money', you'd hope they might be arrested, though no actual crime had taken place at that point.

Does anyone have any information on what powers the police cited for making these arrests?

Not really. The major roads around the SE have been a very different place this week (not unlike when the Insulate Britian protests were occuring), with a hugely increased police presence. The police are under huge public pressure to do something. Every time I have been near or on a major road this week on my way to work I have been "heading towards the site of a planned protest shortly before said protest was due to begin".

Like I said, I have never been pulled over, and I don't intent to be, however lets say I end up broken down/get a puncture on the motorway and the police attend (likely on a smart motorway with increased police presence) and as I unload my spare wheel they see I have harness, ropes, generic climbing gear, waterproof jacket and trousers in the car. It seems as climbers we may at an increased risk of police attention and I just wanted to highlight that fact.

With reference to the clickbait title, I make no apologies, well maybe a small apology, but I couldn't help myself and will take like/dislike ratio on my OP as punishment. I am duely chastised.

Do you also carry a Just Stop Oil banner in your car?

During the miner’s strike in the 1980’s the police could turn around cars if they thought the occupants were flying pickets.

Travelling through the Peak with several male friends in the car got a bit more exciting.

I'm not sure that's a crime?

How about a Surfers Against Sewage bumper sticker... they've been pretty critical of government policy? What about a National Trust sticker in my window, they are a bit woke... etc etc.

This was always going to decend into a race to the bottom discussion about the legality of protests, hence why I make little apology for my clickbait title. But deep down, genuinly, I'm concerned and I will probably take my climbing stuff out the car unless I'm heading to the crag/wall, and to me that is worrying and worthy of raising on a climbing website.

Once I slept at Millstone car park, and I had to show the police my climbing gear to prove that I wasn’t there for some dogging, so y’know, swings and roundabouts.

Um... there is. It's called: "it's completely legal to carry climbing gear."

This pre-emptive policing of protesters through dubious interpretations of the law has been going on a long, long time. Often, police act illegally or bring charges that don't stand up to the light of day - which sometimes courts will uphold, despite being used in unprecedented and unjust ways. Sometimes these are eventually successfully appealed and dropped, but not without enormous impacts on the finances, mental health and wellbeing of protesters.

I've previously had police stop us and threaten to confiscate scarves (in December) and a butter knife... We were told that them not doing so (i.e. abusing their powers) was conditional on us telling them everything about our names, addresses and plans for the day. So, make no mistake: the issue is not whether police can distinguish your cragging gear from someone else's tree/building/power-station-climbing gear; it's whether the police feel like using their power to punish you or not.

This is something that black British people have understood a long time - like that poor teenage girl who was aggressively strip-searched because police "thought they could smell marijuana". She probably said something mildly cheeky and they thought: "we'll have her for that". That's the mentality.

We live in an authoritarian state that is become more authoritarian by the day. The fact that fossil fuel companies are able to actively destroy the climate of the planet yet enjoy public subsidies and political cover, whilst young and almost powerless people are hounded and criminalised for trying to draw attention to the impending catastrophe is... beyond words.

I got queried once by some police while walking through Blackpool town centre with a climbing bag and rope over my shoulder. I'd just got off the train at Blackpool north station and was walking towards home having been climbing somewhere. Wasn't a big deal though they were just like "what's that for?" and I explained where I'd been and said something to the effect of "don't worry I'm not going to climb the tower" and I was sent on my way.

But in this case yes it was clearly a targeted stop as otherwise, it would have been a stroke of luck. It wasn't the climbing gear it was the gear together with the protest kit which did it. A bit like having some tools in your boot isn't an offence, nor is a ski mask and gloves but if they were found together in a residential area at night might land you with a going equipped for burglary charge. 

It's effectively about going equipped, I suspect.  The protest banner is absolutely key.

After all, it's not illegal to have a crowbar in your car, but there are cases where it may result in police action if they reckon you're on the way to commit a burglary.

That's not how the law works.  If there's not a legal framework for something, then it's allowed.

I completely agree. I suppose this is a personal thing, but driving on the M25 at rush hour with climbing gear and waterproofs in my boot has suddenly got very close to "going equipped". One stressed, overworked police officer having a bad day could end up in an arrest.

Surely it's more purple?

Could we possibly agree that a police officer under huge public pressure, over worked and under supported might not be across the full detail of the law in the heat of the moment and might err on the side of caution and make an arrest,  and if no law has been broken then release with out charge later. As seen with the reporters earlier this week.

However what seems like a non-issue to them could have huge ramifications, I don't exaclty want to be phoning my employer, who take a dim view of interactions with the police, and explain "I can't come to work today, I've been arrested".

Availability, probably - you can walk into any branch of GoOutdoors, Cotswolds, etc and pick up a climbing harness, whereas industrial rope access stuff is specialist suppliers.

Think they've said they're stopping for now, but good luck to her...

Unless you're very, very careful about checking every aspect of your car before setting off on each journey, there's always something they could get you on if they wanted to.

There shouldn't effectively be an offence of "mildly irritating a Police Officer", but unfortunately there effectively is.

Yes - this absolutley.

A naive "then they came for us" attitude from me in my OP.... but you have made the point in a much more comprehensive way.

Firstly what are your chances of getting pulled by the police? Is your car 'known to the police' and likely to flag up on anpr systems, do you have defective lights or illegal numberplates, or is your driving style erratic/aggressive/fast?

If you do get pulled can you give a reasonable explanation as to your reason for traveling in the general direction of where protests are happening, or are you the confrontational type who will argue with police that is against your civil liberties to be stopped, rather than help them to quickly rule you out as a potential protestor by just giving honest answers?

Can you give a believable reason for why the climbing gear is in your car? Guidebooks, climbing wall membership cards, photos or even online presence to prove that you are far too busy climbing to give up your time to save the planet.

I live by the dictum of leaving nothing of any value in a car, unless I really can't help it. I learnt this from having two cars stolen in my lifetime. (One was a rental, but a still lost a $10 map, which was a nuisance!)

I don’t know the details of this stop but it’s very probable that this was a targeted stop, with intelligence linking either the vehicle or the individuals to similar incidents; the banner being highly influential in the decision to arrest. The morality of this and the protesters’ cause is up for discussion, but I certainly don’t think climbers driving to a crag (or anywhere with gear in the boot) need to worry. 

Once the protesters are in position (in trees etc normally blocking a significant location), the disruption absorbs huge resources and investigations are long winded and difficult for overstretched teams to expedite. Arrest is likely to be considered necessary to prevent this even if a charge is unlikely. 

A custody Sgt would almost certainly refuse detention of a person purely detained on suspicion of an offence for having climbing gear on them! I don’t think you need to be concerned at all about being arrested. 

Don't be ridiculous. If a burglar goes driving round an estate in the middle of the night with a whole bunch of tools that are perfect for housebreaking that's an offence "going equipped".  

Yet do you think a carpenter who has a valid and legal reason to be driving around with these tools in their van worries about being arrested?

In any case I'd guess that this will be NFA'd... Can't see the CPS thinking there is a realistic chance of prosecution? 

No, but you can go to any branch of Screwfix and pick up a harness and fall arrest lanyard for £45. So easier if anything.

Not having a go, I only found this out last week when a mate who works on sites needed stuff for training on a Monday and had to get something on the Sunday.

Which is why that picture of a sit harness hit home, I had assumed they would be using industrial kit designed for working at height, not sit harnesses designed for freedom of movement and light weight and only "adaquate" for use over long periods. There is gear geekery to be found everywhere!

Agree, there is no way someone with a valid reason for having the items should fear the police - I am thinking out loud if having the stuff in my car when I'm not going climbing (eg on my way to work early in the morning) give me a reduced footing in the eyes of the police.

Note I said police there not law, because I agree zero chance of charge, but as I have said above being arrested on my way to work would be damaging enough for me.

I used to keep my kayak rescue knife in the car, along with the first aid kit - it's one-handed opening and a locking blade, but it's also a blunt tip, as it's designed NOT to stab. Used to carry the package leaflet in the boot, just in case of explanations, but it's been replaced now with tuff-cut scissors.

Well, well - and I thought I had a pretty good idea of Screwfix's range!

It can also affect you applying for a Visa/ESTA to travel to the US, if I remember a thread on here some time ago. Arrest without charge still has to be declared and can result in you having to fill out a different form, if I remember correctly.

I think you'll be fine.  

You probably have a higher probability of being in a fatal collision than being pulled over and arrested for having your climbing gear in the boot.

In the unlikely event that does happen (which it won't) you could always show them this thread!

Anyone can have a defective light, even if you checked every bulb before you set off. I've certainly had a headlight bulb go 'pop' as I was driving round the M25. I considered it was safer to continue home and change it there in daylight than try to stop and change it on the hard shoulder in the dark (it's a stupid design and requires either the air filter or fuse box to be removed to give access to the bulb!).

Not if you "forget" about that you don't.

They don't have access to a database of everyone who has ever been arrested right there.  The chances of your lapse in memory every being discovered are pretty remote.

I quite like the idea of UKC being the ultimate arbitrator of all issues;

At risk of arrest? - show the police this UKC thread.

Boss asking too much of you? - Theres a UKC thread on that.

Disagreement with friends or partner? - UKC.

Going on holiday and the pilot is trying to take off on a treadmill? - Bang on the cockpit door quoting the appropriate big hitters.

Sadly, based on some friends of mines experiences you can add "Are you black?" to this list.

Well yes, obviously you can lie on your application, and say whatever you like. I was assuming people were honest though. What's the consequences if, somewhere down the line, it comes to light that you have lied on your visa application? I don't imagine the USA would take very kindly to it.

The level of trouble you'd have to get involved in for this to come to light over there would mean this lapse in memory would be the least of your concerns.

The new Policing bill as far as I know.

To be fair, they are not doing it alone: you mention being stopped yourself; I presume you meant your car was stopped. So you too are actively destroying the climate of the planet. We all are.

Surely even the newest Constable must know that the press are free to cover whatever they deem to be news. Arresting press with press cards doesn't seem to me to be "in the heat of the moment"....

It's worth reminding ourselves of the recent anti-protest legislation introduced by this government, including fairly draconian changes snuck in after the second reading of the Bill.

"Then they came for me" should be a real concern, I'm afraid, considering the mentality of recent and current home secretarries.

In reply to Yyyhau998:

Why?

My experience of police officers is that they are fairly sensible and if you can give them a plausible account of why you have something potentially suspicious (and sound like you know what you are talking about while not looking super shifty) they’ll let you be on your way. 

Yes, fully agree. I suppose another way of phrasing my OP would be;

"I never thought I'd be in the situation of potentially needing to explain my possesion of climbing gear in the back of my car on the way to work"

Something that made me stop and think.

I'm sure, if it came to it I told a reasonable police officer that I'm a climber and keep my gear in the car they would be satisfied with that response.

However (despite me not wanting to be at odds to almost everyone on this thread and making this rumble on) I'm not sure the arrest of reporters with press cards was the action of a reasonable police officer, so in the back of my mind the possibility that I might be opening myself up to arrest (not charge) for having climbing gear in my car on the M25 at 7.00 in the morning  is a thought that exists.

Yeah, I can see it being an odd one to have to consider. I reckon if you wanted to be on the safe side you could make sure there’s also a couple guide books and a map of somewhere like the Peak to strengthen your alibi. But overall on the list of things to worry about on the way to work I’d put being arrested for possessing climbing gear a fair way below a major motorway crash.

Consider yourself lucky, when you get to my age you are more likely to have a bottle of urine in your car that climbing gear ! 

I got randomly pulled in Liverpool once. A search of the vehicle revealed a golf club, which, apparently, was a necessary tool for drug dealing.

I was eventually let off and sent on my way without charge.

Erring on the side of caution isn't making an arrest - it's not making an arrest when suitable grounds don't exist for making said arrest. I don't accept your arguments - under-resourced they sadly may be, but public pressure should have no bearing on the application of law. The entire role of the police is to apply the law 'without fear or favour' - not to proactively apply law to people who haven't yet broken it, not to apply their interpretation of the law because they don't personally like something, not to....etc.

If we start accepting the police proactively arresting people because they're 'erring on the side of caution' without any legal basis for doing so and without regard to PACE, then we're basically applying grease to the giant slide the incumbent government have already erected into authoritarian hell. Thankfully, I get the (unevidenced) impression that most egregious examples probably don't survive first contact with a custody sergeant. Or at least, I can sincerely hope they don't.

It would have been far better to follow at a safe distance then nick them as they started to climb a gantry. No wriggling out of that if caught in the act. 

Hmmm ....the Just Stop Oil protesters are driving to their protests in cars fuelled by oil byproducts? 

And how does their bread, milk, etc. get delivered to the shops they buy their food from ?

You we’re there for some S&M instead

Well, isn't it? Come on, we all know that UKC is the arbitrator of all issues and that the UKC consensus is always right!

I'm sure that if there ever was one, it would be.

Count yourself lucky... I once slept in the back of my van in a secluded layby (while working on a nearby bridge). It wasn't the police who showed up as it got dark.

Worse still...  shouting **** off aggressively must be some kind of role play or something I'm not aware of as it seemed to pique their interest more and attract all of them over. But repeating those gentle phrases again but also waving a hammer out of the window seemed to clarify the intent and they suddenly lost interest.

What I learned from that is DON'T sleep in secluded car parks!

TBF, I'm not making billions of pounds out of it whilst enjoying (in fact, lobbying for) political cover and favourable policies; nor negligently destroying the Niger Delta and causing oil spills like Deepwater Horizon; nor enforcing poor working conditions; nor dodging immense taxes. Rather than having control over significant global assets, I'm barely able to afford to live, unable to afford to heat my rented home properly, and have no option but to use my car for many things. So, rather than mindlessly saying "well, you know, you're not perfect", why don't you try and form an actual analysis of the world that is cognisant of the unequal distribution of wealth and power in our society?

It's completely clear that we should claw back billions in public subsidies, tax this wealth, ban new oil exploration and begin a transition away from oil in earnest. It's equally clear who benefits from the fact we are not doing this, and that in the meanwhile ordinary people will continue having to use fossil fuels because they are not in control of energy production.