In reply to C Witter:
> This is the problem with UKC: you debate with dopes.
Haha, I know the feeling
> You said you were "prepared to accept the route getting bolder". I pointed out that actually you're not, you're just prepared not to climb the route. If you can't appreciate the distinction, then I'm not going to be able to make you understand it. But, you won't, you'll just go: "yes, I'm happy with that, why is it a problem?" as though you've scored some logical one upmanship.
To me, accepting that a route has got bolder is to accept the route as it is in it's new state. That may well mean that it's now too bold for me when it wasn't before, maybe it's still ok for my bolder/stronger/better mate and maybe it was already too hard for my other less bold mate, so no change for them.
I can appreciate that it is somewhat sad that routes which get bolder will get fewer leads, but I also currently find it somewhat sad that there are rusty pegs sticking out of crags across the country. The latter makes me more sad than the former.
I'm afraid I don't really appreciate the distinction, sorry, seems like we may be at an impasse. I'm not trying to score any logical oneupmanship, I genuinely feel that I'd rather routes didn't have fixed pegs in, even if that means they get done less (even not at all) because they're bolder.
> The route I used as an example, A Sense of Doubt, will never be climbed sans bolts in an "improved style". It will just be complete death on a stick tech 6a with no gear and no one will climb it, or possibly one or two nutters who can hardly be applauded for soloing a route that any old punter can do with the existing pegs. And some people think that is "purity" or "progress", but they're just talking nonsense out of their sofas.
Haha, tbf I do mostly post on UKC from some form of chair, find it easier than doing it on lead. How many routes do I have to climb per year to qualify for a non sofa opinion?
R.e. A Sense of Doubt, I can see why you'd be sad that a relatively safe E4 route that is relatively popular could be turned into an E6/7ish chop route which would be unpopular. If I had my way, that is what would ultimately happen when the pegs had deteriorated to the point of no longer safe. The idea of that happening makes me a bit sad too, but it is for me less sad than replacing the pegs, either with new pegs or with PBolts.
> With all the gear we have now, how can anyone suggest we are progressing or climbing with an improved style? Bunk.
I don't really understand this point. I think that climbing a route with a big rack of modern gear is better style than climbing it with a small rack of pegs that get hammered in. I know that modern nuts and cams do still damage the rock, so they're not perfect, but they cause an order of magnitude less damage than pegs. Not to say that ascents bitd with tiny racks weren't impressive.
> But all the gear in the world won't be any use on some routes, so they just won't get done without fixed gear... or TRed, yes... but TRing isn't climbing.
I think saying top roping isn't climbing is a bit ridiculous.
> Anyway, I'd rather no bolts than indiscriminate bolting,
At least we can agree on that
> and these threads do demonstrate people's inability to cope with nuance, so...
I think the problem is that every grey area (area in which to apply nuance) will get pushed to it's limit. Which is why we now have bolts on Gogarth.