UKH

It recently saw a ‘tech tip’ post on Instagram about tieing in with a competition knot, though the poster called it a bro knot. 

(For those not in the know: a competition knot is a reverse rethreaded overhand - like a tape knot.)

Does anyone know anything about the origins of this know and the etymology of its name? My guess is it uses less rope and therefore is lighter in marginal gains sort of way, and therefore favoured by those doing competition climbing. But that’s just a guess…

Are there any benefits of tieing in this way, other than looking cool?

Also called a ring bend or water knot. Minimal and unties more easily than a rethreaded overhand?

I only use this knot.

Its compact,  light,  easy to tie well , and easier to untie than a fig 8.

A crucial thing is that its easy to check - it just looks right at a glance,  whereas you can't check a bowline at a glance.

My big question is why are they not more popular? 

 Here's beardy Mike's video about them

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au8KiUS4RCc&

Whatever the etymology it's not currently a competition knot - IFSC rules require a figure 8 with a stopper.

Looks a bit style over substance. Part of the rope dynamics in the event of a fall is the tie in knot tightening. Not much to tighten in the competition knot. But it might save you 30 cm of rope.

Aren't tape knots notorious for untying themselves,they work loose very easily.

Certainly using a fig of 8 with stopper at the recent comp in Germany this week. There is quite a lot of stuff posted about no need for an overhand knot, incl. on the Mammut site.

What is this knot like to undo after falling on it - fig 8's can be sometimes be hard, but bowlines (which I normally use for sport) are a lot better.

It's the other way around, knots in tape work loose.

I think the etymology is from it being quick, neat and easier to undo than a figure of eight after whipping and is easier to inspect than a bowline,  hence it was used in the competition scene by some. I have used it almost exclusively to tie in with for the last 10-15 years and it has never worked loose, been mis-tied etc. Yes it uses marginally less rope but for me the main win is that is far neater than a figure of eight. It sits higher on the waist belt which means it's easier to grab your rope when pulling out slack. In terms of using it in a guiding setting, well I can't see a reason not to, literally ANY mug can tie an overhand, which can't be said for an 8, the number of beginners I've witnessed stuffing up an 8.... If you rethread it incorrectly it forms a an overhand which is absolutely strong enough. If you get it right it forms a knot which can be loaded as a ring and will not roll like an eight or an overhand, and infact tightens under load. Lossening, for me literally has never happened, again the same can't be said for a bowline. Is it for everyone, clearly not as this thread demonstrates. But try it with an open mind. Just another tool in the box...

I did a little comparison of the bowline, the competition knot, and the figure-eight in the gym.  Just climbed up a bit, took three top-rope falls, and lowered off.  The bowline was by far the easiest to untie, the competition knot next, and the figure eight the worst.

I was using a single bowline with a tucked Yosemite finish---my standard tie-in indoors and out. https://www.mountainproject.com/photo/112126347/lee39s-locked-yosemite-bowl.... The knot is often referred to as "Lee's Locked Bowline."

The concern about the ring bend (tape knot) untying was mentioned.  In tape, this knot is subject to "tail creep" if subjected to multiple loading cycles (a lot of cycles!).  This does present a danger for slings left in place for rappelling and any tied runner used repeatedly.  An IFMG guide was killed in the Tetons a few years ago when a tether he was using, tied with a ring bend, came undone.  But none of this is particularly relevant to the competition knot.  First of all, there is only one "tail" whose creep could be consequential, and secondly, if that tail is reasonably long, the number of cycles required to get it to creep into the knot would be astronomical.

To my mind, this is a key difference between a tape knot, and a competition knot. A tape knot is tape which is as slippery as Boris Johnsons infamous Teflon shoulders, where as rope is not. Like you say, with a decent tail which gets tucked back through your harness tiein loops, it's just never going to happen. As I say, 10-15 years and literally not once have I gone to untie and though DAMN, its loosened. On occasion I have had badly dressed stopper knots on a bowline work loose. I noticed before it became critical, but it happened. The other thing to mention is that with a bowline, it's customary to thread the legloops first, not the waistbelt. This leaves you prone to messing up whilst distracted and only tying into your legloops. This could leave you in an inverted fall, or worse, breaking the legloops which are much much weaker than your waist band. Competition and 8 both tie in through the waist band first... another mode of failure eliminated.

Not the way I do it!

Nor me!

And in 40+ years of using it as a primary tie-in knot I've literally never found the stopper knot even close to coming undone.

I accept that bowlines can make it difficult for instructors to check beginners' knots, but for independent climbers I simply can't see any reason whatsoever to consider changing it.

With an 8, well I suppose you can do it either way. Tieing in through your waistband first does prevent that mode of failure though. It's certainly the way plenty of instructors teach it... not saying that that makes it perfect...

The competition knot, tieing it that way makes it lie flat against your harness like a bowline does. I still use the bowline occasionally, I think the times I've had the stopper come undone I was using particularly flexible and thin ropes, and doing lots of pitches. It used to be my go to. Personally for me, this knot ticks all the boxes of what I want from a tie in. As I said, that doesn't mean it's for everyone...

Lee's Locked is The Dogs. Simple, quick, secure and non-jamming. Also stable under cross-loading. Very easy to tie on someone else. I've used it for years. The only slight gripe is that the free end is in the central loop, which is why I use the EBSB with Yosemite finish for leading or if I'm going to be anchoring. It has all the advantages of the Lee's locked and is a thing of beauty with a distinctive and recognisable appearance. It will even withstand being mis-tied with the notorious "Yosemite foul-up". The only time I use the re-thread Fo8 is when I teach it at a climbing wall. It's the entrenched orthodoxy and hence you need to know it, even if you only use it to get into climbing centres.

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Does anyone know anything about the origins of this know and the etymology of its name? My guess is it uses less rope and therefore is lighter in marginal gains sort of way, and therefore favoured by those doing competition climbing. But that’s just a guess…

End Quote>>

It wasn't invented by climbers... but, the application of this derived #1412 eye knot as a 'tie-in' knot was first applied by climbers (likely 'sport climbers' on bolted routes or on indoor artificial surfaces).

It is important to understand that all end-to-end joining knots (ie 'bends') have 4 corresponding eye knots. So - #1412 Water knot (ring bend / tape knot) has 4 corresponding eye knots. Knots geeks have known and understood this basic concept for decades.

You can perform the same exercise with #1411 F8 bend. It also has 4 corresponding eye knots (one of which is the well known #1047 F8 eye knot).

Note: Climbers have a tendency to 'rediscover' and then rename knots that were already discovered and known. An example is the so-called 'Stone knot' - which is used with a 'fiddlestick' (a type of open toggle). The so-called 'Stone knot' is none other than a double Marlinspike hitch (#2030).

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<<Quote: Are there any benefits of tieing in this way, other than looking cool? End Quote>>

Not really.

This knot (and any of the corresponding F8 eye knots) are not 'PET' (Post Eye Tiable).
PET knots are much easier to work with.

The only benefit with this particular #1412 derived tie-in knot is to reduce the propensity for jamming. Any of the secure Bowlines offer more advantages... eg jam resistant, 'PET" and 3 rope diameters inside the nipping loop.

My personal favourite is the 'EBSB' Bowline, but I also like and use 'Lees link Bowline'.

Bleedin heck, does Google translate even do Knot Geek?

PET:      Post-eye tie-able. 

             Means that you can put the rope around something and then tie the knot. The figure of eight isn't PET. To tie it around something you have to half-tie it, wrap it round, then re-thread it. It's one of the things that make the Fo8 such a fussy and long-winded thing to learn and to tie.

Nipping loop:    This is the loop in a bowline that grips the rope. It's the "hole that the rabbit comes out of and goes back down into", giving two strands of rope through it. The secure bowlines referred to involve sending the free end through it a second time - this is called an "end binding" This has the effect of gripping the free end more securely as well as increasing the radius go the nipping loop. The nipping loop is the most highly stressed point in the knot and indeed the entire rope. Increasing the radius reduces the stress gradient across it so that it weakens the rope less. 

On its own an end binding isn't sufficient to create a secure knot but combining it with a Yosemite finish (I assume everybody knows what that is) either before or after the end binding produces some exquisite secure bowlines. Lee's Locked bowline has the end binding after the Yosemite. The alternative is the "end-bound single bowline (EBSB) with Yosemite finish". It doesn't appear to have a name though I'd be inclined to call it the Lehmann-Gommers bowline after the two guys who invented it. Mark Gommers is the author of "An analysis of bowlines", a paper published by PACI, the Australian instructors association. It is the source of much of the information in this and the previous post.

The numbers in agent smith's post are the knot designations in "Ashley's Book of Knots".

Its been a while since I've learnt so much in a single ukc post - thankyou!