Olympic Climbing will miss Ondra but why?

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ElArt 19 Aug 2019

Hi everyone,

Firstly Shauna Coxsey did brilliantly so I’m really happy with that. Thanks to a top class athlete representing the UK really well.

Secondly Ive been following Adam Ondras  “ Road to Tokyo” (so I will admit strong bias) and have been watching the IFSC coverage of the climbing there.

i really don’t understand how he can be judged to have gained an advantage over other competitors by standing on the bolt near hold ten.

I think I’ve got the right scene and there’s a huge blue hold just right of the bolt that would have been more advantageous to stand on and he didn’t need the reach.

I don’t think the footage is good enough to make a judgement and it was only reviewed after somebody complained.

Does anyone think he gained a material advantage that affected the outcome of his attempt and therefore his place?

If we really are not going to see a world class climber at the top of his game in the Olympics I think it will be a huge opportunity missed (and this whole combined format must take some of the blame too.. Why combined??).

Apologies if this turned into a rant but what is happening to climbing at the Olympics!

A penny for your thoughts?

Bill

1
 Emilio Bachini 19 Aug 2019
In reply to ElArt:

He can still qualify for 2020 through other events. I haven’t seen the bolt incident, so I’m neither agreeing or disagreeing with anyone’s decision.

 Michael Hood 19 Aug 2019
In reply to ElArt:

Bolt and blue hold to its right might have been partially out of view because of the big yellow volume.

I suspect that if he felt anything when his foot contacted the bolt, that he thought his foot had brushed/pushed against the blue hold.

Very difficult to ascertain whether any tiny advantage which might have happened there would make a difference twenty moves further on in terms of being able to do an extra reach or move.

Edit: Whoever  complained either thought he gained a material advantage, or just isn't very sporting. But with competition climbing becoming more and more commercial, it's hardly surprising.

Post edited at 19:08
In reply to ElArt:

Isn't there an IFSC held wildcard for one person,  presumably as insurance for someone like Ondra or Janja that the TV audience is going to expect to see doesn't make it? 

ElArt 19 Aug 2019
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

It says on another thread here that he will have a chance at Toulouse but I still think it’s a bad decision.

 HeMa 19 Aug 2019
In reply to ElArt:

So you think it is Ok to stand on bolts in the future comps. Or banners (McColl). Why not simply also yard from the draws  

The ISCF rules are quite easy to understand. And stepping on bolts is a no-no. 

Besides, there’s still like 5 comps left to quality. 

3
ElArt 19 Aug 2019
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

The wildcard I’ve heard of will go to Japan as they’re hosting. 

 joeldering 19 Aug 2019
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

As far as I understand (and I probably understand wrongly), no. It's a place that the Tripartite Commission can give to certain under-represented countries (typically small island nations or very poor countries), for which Ondra would not be eligible.

 Sam Shilliday 19 Aug 2019
In reply to joeldering:

To add more speculation to the fire, I’ve heard that the wildcard will only go to someone having competed in a world championship - to ensure a certain minimum standard. 

Very few, if any, of the countries you allude to have athletes that meet this criteria. And for what it’s worth, I personally don’t think bringing someone who’s far off the pace that will come last in every event is very fair. 

Much rather bring a high profile athlete that’s had bad luck with the qualifying process. 

1
 joeldering 19 Aug 2019
In reply to Sam Shilliday:

As far as I can tell, no one will qualify for the place (you have to come from one of a specific list of countries and have competed in the Combined WCH at Hachioji, like you say), which means it will be reallocated to the next best climber from the Hachioji WCHs. Currently that would be Yannick Flohe, but I assume it could go even further down the list depending on what happens in Toulouse.

 Sam Shilliday 19 Aug 2019
In reply to joeldering:

In that case it’s not impossible for it to go to Ondra after all... 

 joeldering 19 Aug 2019
In reply to Sam Shilliday:

Further speculation, which I'm probably still wrong about: If he competes in Xiamen in October, then he will qualify for the Selection Event in Toulouse in November. A top 6 finish in Toulouse would see him qualify for the Olympics.

Failing that he has a shot at the European Championship next year.

It seems very unlikely that we will see an Olympics without Ondra.

 Ian W 20 Aug 2019
In reply to ElArt:

> The wildcard I’ve heard of will go to Japan as they’re hosting. 

You have heard wrongly. The allocation rules are here

https://www.ifsc-climbing.org/images/World_Competitions/FINAL_-_2019-02-01_...

Any speculation on the "wildcard" is purely that; it is baseless gossip, as with less than 1/3 of the quotas filled after the Hachioji WC, there is a long process still to go through. 

Post edited at 09:29
 Ian W 20 Aug 2019
In reply to joeldering:

You are correct, you understand wrongly. See previous reply to ElArt.

 Siderunner 20 Aug 2019

Olympic climbing without Ondra would be like a 100m without Bolt or a marathon without Kipchoge. It would feel like a decider for second-best-in-the-world ...

 galpinos 20 Aug 2019
In reply to ElArt:

> i really don’t understand how he can be judged to have gained an advantage over other competitors by standing on the bolt near hold ten.

It's because you can't tell whether any advantage has been gained that the rule simply stipulates touching a bolt is a no no. It makes it simple and easy to understand, even if it seems harsh. Can you imagine if the officials had to try and work out if he weighted that foot etc!

It reminds me of the false start rule in athletics. You can suddenly find yourself without the favourite in a sprint final due to one false start. It seems harsh but it's a "fair" and easily enforceable rule.

 joeldering 20 Aug 2019
In reply to Ian W:

Does this disagree with what I said? Can you expand on what I'm wrong about?

 ianstevens 20 Aug 2019
In reply to ElArt:

> A penny for your thoughts?

He clearly dabbed the bolt IMO. The rules state that it's out of bounds, whether it helps or not.

Other chancs for him to qualify anyway.

 Lemony 20 Aug 2019
In reply to galpinos:
> Can you imagine if the officials had to try and work out if he weighted that foot etc!

They do don't they? That's certainly the impression from the commentary gave but also would be my reading of the rules:

> Legitimate Position means, for the purposes of Lead competitions, that a competitor in the course of their attempt on a route: (a) has not used any Artificial Aid;

> Artificial Aid means Controlling or Using any of the following: (a) any “T-Nut” placements provided for the fixing of artificial holds; (b) any part of the Climbing Surface demarcated as out of bounds; (c) any advertising or informational placards fixed to the Climbing Surface; (d) any open side or top edges to the Climbing Surface; (e) any bolt hangar fixed to the Climbing Surface; or (f) any Protection Point or the climbing rope;

i.e. it's the same rules as apply to holds:

> Control means, for the purposes of judging and scoring, that a competitor has made use of some object/structure to: (a) achieve a stable body position; (b) successfully brake any dynamic movement; or (c) make a climbing movement not captured by the definition of “Use”

 

Post edited at 11:22
 galpinos 20 Aug 2019
In reply to Lemony:

I was under the impression that touching a bolt counted as "use" but I'd need someone more au fait with the rules/judging to confirm/deny......

 Ian W 20 Aug 2019
In reply to joeldering:

> Does this disagree with what I said? Can you expand on what I'm wrong about?

As far as I understand (and I probably understand wrongly), no. It's a place that the Tripartite Commission can give to certain under-represented countries (typically small island nations or very poor countries), for which Ondra would not be eligible.

This ^^, although having read it again, you could conceivably be right, but only if that small island nation or very poor country is affiliated to the IFSC and has a competitior in the WCH . But it could be awarded to anyone not qualifying through the normal channels. But as yet, nobody has the first clue who might be eligible for this wildcard never mind who it might be awarded to......

 Ian W 20 Aug 2019
In reply to Lemony:

> > Can you imagine if the officials had to try and work out if he weighted that foot etc!

> They do don't they? That's certainly the impression from the commentary gave but also would be my reading of the rules:

Yes, the climber is supposed to have gained some benefit in order to be called out for it. I must confess I havent seen the "Ondra Incident", but if it was just a case of his foot brushing against it whilst climbing upwards, then he wouldnt have been gaining advantage and would be ok. 

If, from a static position, he dabbed the bolt as ianstevens says above, then he is likely to have been deemed to have gained an advantage. If anyone can point me in the direction of the relevant comp i'd be fascinated to see it; it does sound a very marginal call though, as most of these incidents are pretty obvious when viewed up close (i.e. being the route judge......).

 Lemony 20 Aug 2019
In reply to Ian W:

> If anyone can point me in the direction of the relevant comp i'd be fascinated to see it

youtube.com/watch?v=VoxMAMMyRao&t=5534

I'd say there's nothing marginal about it, he full on stands and presses off it.

edit: a few seconds early, it's at about 5.28 remaining

Post edited at 12:51
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ElArt 20 Aug 2019

Looks like his best bet is one of the 6 places in the Toulouse competition.

 Ian W 20 Aug 2019
In reply to Lemony:

Yeah, from the video it looks as if his foot is probably in contact with it. if I was route judge, i'd at least have marked it down as a question mark for review once the route had finished, as in my mind even from the video there is certainly a possibility it was used - the angle of his ankle indicates that, so live, at close range, it was probably a foul. However, I can also see from the judges point of view why he was allowed to continue - much rather do that and correct the high point later rather than call him off and find on appeal that you had made a mistake and shouldn't have brought him off.......

1
 Fishmate 20 Aug 2019
In reply to ElArt:

I watched it back a few times. It looks negligible to me but I only have YouTube to evaluate the claim. The IFSC may benefit from a clearer take on it. He'll get to the Olympics, don't fear, unless he drops out.

As for Shauna, WOW, inspiring performance.

ElArt 20 Aug 2019
In reply to Lemony:

IEdit2: just to be clear it’s the bolt next to hold ten (blue) just before the yellow semicircle hold. There’s about 30 seconds of his 6 minutes gone, hence 5:30 left.

I’m looking at it now and there’s no way he stands on the bolt.

On the move before he flags in s similar way and a couple later he flags in the opposite direction.

If you look at the footage of other climbers eg. Jakob Schubert from the other direction you will see that all the weight is in the left heel (in the yellow scoop) on that move, further proof that he’s flagging his right. You can see Adam Ondra doing this too.

i think this decision was made without the opportunity for due consideration and therefore accurate judgement. 

If he is injured or has a fall (edit: in Toulouse) and doesn’t make the Olympics this will be a real shame for climbing.

Post edited at 13:35
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ElArt 20 Aug 2019
In reply to Lemony:

I’m letting this go anyway.

No doubt he will get there with his immense maturity and resilience.

Also Shauna Coxseys performance was absolutely fantastic too 💪💪💪

Peace out, ele.

 Steve nevers 20 Aug 2019
In reply to ElArt:

> Looks like his best bet is one of the 6 places in the Toulouse competition.

There's no guarantee he'll make it to Toulouse.

The rules are only the top 20 ranked in combined get to compete there 

Ondra is way out of the top 20 ranked, due to only having climbed in speed once before the past week.

He's got 2 comps to up his ranking before Toulouse, which could be a hard task seeing he's not great at speed, and if bouldering is like the WCH finals set that could hurt him further.

Agreed, I'd be sad not to see him make it for 2020, but it's really not a given that he'll be there atm.

Post edited at 15:50
In reply to ElArt:

Presumably merely illustrates  the natural expectation that climbing in the Olympics will be utter toss, no?

jcm

Post edited at 16:12
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 john arran 20 Aug 2019
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

The climbing today was about as far from "utter toss" as any televised sport can get, even though it doesn't appear to conform to your preconceived notions of what climbing is or should be about.

1
 Lemony 20 Aug 2019
In reply to Connorh:

Yes, they all put their foot near the bolt, none of them appear to have put it on the bolt. They flagged and pushed off the wall. Ondra appears to have done exactly the same but with his foot on the bolt, that’s against the rules.

3
 felt 20 Aug 2019
In reply to Siderunner:

> Olympic climbing without Ondra would be like a 100m without Bolt or a marathon without Kipchoge. It would feel like a decider for second-best-in-the-world ...

But we've just had one of the best TdFs in memory without Froome, Dumoulin or Roglic. Great football WCs happen without top teams, Holland, Italy, England, and didn't Bolt get kicked out of a 100m at the Worlds once because of a false start?

The stars don't always align as we would like, but sometimes events are all the better for it.

1
In reply to Lemony:

> Yes, they all put their foot near the bolt, none of them appear to have put it on the bolt. They flagged and pushed off the wall. Ondra appears to have done exactly the same but with his foot on the bolt, that’s against the rules.


I think the OP feels application of the rules should depend on the fame of the culprit, and if they have a nice backstory, outlined in a youtube series. 

8
 Connorh 20 Aug 2019
In reply to Lemony:

I didn't suggest Ondra hadn't broken the rules, he clearly did, just that its a natural foot placement and the setters should have known better. Doesn't look like he pushed at all, it was just a flag.

Post edited at 16:49
 Ian W 20 Aug 2019
In reply to Lemony:

> Yes, they all put their foot near the bolt, none of them appear to have put it on the bolt. They flagged and pushed off the wall. Ondra appears to have done exactly the same but with his foot on the bolt, that’s against the rules.

Indeed. Megos (for eg) has his foot very close to where Ondra had his, but moved it before changing body position. Ondra, probably because he is taller, moved off with his foot on the bolt. 

Quite why the setters are being berated, I'm not sure. The bolt was there all day long, and they all know the rules. If you are tall and your foot is going to be near a bolt, take extra care. Ondra didn't, and paid the price.

2
 Durbs 20 Aug 2019
In reply to ElArt:

I don't see why Ondra "should" be there... he got beaten in other disciplines, and has been beaten many times before too.

I would even go as far to say his competition performance is actually pretty inconsistent - compared to people like McColl.

There's no denying Ondra is an absolute master of rock climbing, but his competition performance is very temperamental 

1
 Iamgregp 20 Aug 2019
In reply to Ian W:

You're absolutely right, and I agree with you (after all they are professionals!), and perhaps Ondra should have done better on this, but, playing devils advocate, I can also see why some people would criticise the setting...

If the natural flagging point to make a move is in and around a certain area, why have a bolt anywhere near that space? 

Ondra's a little taller than many, so his natural, in balance, foot position would be a little further away  than that of some of the others which put it right at the bolt.  To avoid this he would have to have his foot in a less natural, slightly more inefficient position meaning he's at a disadvantage...

Just have the bolt a couple of feet higher or to one side, then it's a level playing field for everyone.  It's similar to that dbacle with the Black Diamond logo that time. Could have all been avoided by just moving it to somewhere away from where people are going to be putting their feet.

1
 Alkis 20 Aug 2019
In reply to Ian W:

Yet on the same competition Shauna lost points for the same thing, which has started to form a bit of a pattern of bolts placed without much deliberation.

In reply to Alkis:

> Yet on the same competition Shauna lost points for the same thing, which has started to form a bit of a pattern of bolts placed without much deliberation.

Presumably the climbing wall has bolt hangars in a regular pattern from when it was manufactured and the setters just put quickdraws on the ones they expect to be used.

 Ian W 20 Aug 2019
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Yup. The hangers are pretty well fixed in place when the wall is constructed. The quickdraws are put in on the line of the climb. Note that the one in question was a protection point, but other hangers are visible. On permanent walls (ie Ratho) all that happens is that the quickdraws on unused lines are clipped up.

Post edited at 18:51
 Ian W 20 Aug 2019
In reply to Iamgregp:

> Just have the bolt a couple of feet higher or to one side, then it's a level playing field for everyone.  It's similar to that dbacle with the Black Diamond logo that time. Could have all been avoided by just moving it to somewhere away from where people are going to be putting their feet.

Without some pretty serious wall building changes, you cant just move the hangers; they cant just be screwed into an alternative convenient T Nut for safety reasons. You could move the qd along the row of bolts, but would that not disadvantage those who are more vertically challenged? Even for those climbers of similar height, each will have their own "comfortable" position for any given place on the wall, so i am afraid I just dont buy the "unfair to Ondra / any othe given climber" scenario. It wasnt a difficult position, his movement was different to others, he should have been more careful. Its as level a playing field as possible for all the competitors, and if the setters have to take into account each climbers specific build / style of climbing, the job would literally be impossible. And dont forget these routes will have been designed and tested long before the comp took place.

Edit - reagrding the BD thing, yes, that should never have happened. Paint the logo on, or move it out of the way.

Post edited at 18:50
 Iamgregp 20 Aug 2019
In reply to Ian W:

To be honest I’m with you, Ondra should have been more careful, though I can understand peoples frustration at the way the route was set which made people flag right near a bolt, even if I don’t lay the blame at the setters’ door

Didn’t realise moving a bolt was as complicated as that though... Makes sense now you’ve explained it...

Edit: Yeah that BD thing was a joke... this is nothing like on that scale!

Post edited at 19:41
 Alkis 20 Aug 2019
In reply to Iamgregp:

> Didn’t realise moving a bolt was as complicated as that though... Makes sense now you’ve explained it...

Ditto, makes sense.

In reply to ElArt:

I still think that he can make it into the top 20 before Toulouse.  He's currently 2nd in the boulder rankings and 7th in Lead with 3 lead comps left. Competitors need two speed entries to get a ranking. Adam placed 63rd in Cham. His team have probably already booked his flight to Xiamen.  I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell us exactly what he needs. 

On another note what a fabulous world champs its been. A void in my life come tomorrow. Glad the Vuelta's starting on Sat. 

Post edited at 20:15
 snoop6060 21 Aug 2019
In reply to ElArt:

Sorry can I just confirm you are not allowed to stand on the bolts when sport climbing?!  Oh please say it ain't true. My ego will be shattered as my logbook is torn to bits. 

2
 ericinbristol 21 Aug 2019
In reply to ElArt:

On 8a.nu:

'Lacrux has made an interview with Adam Ondra in regards him not getting an Olympic ticket as he was called standing on a bolt. 

He says that his plan was to focus on Speed but instead he has to prepare for Toulouse. He confirms that somebody made a protest against him for standing on a bolt and counter-protest were filled in. 

"From my point of view, it was at least questionable, whether I really stood on the bolt or not. I have looked at different video shots from different angles. From what I saw, I couldn’t say for sure that I really stood on it or not. Of course, it is not easy for the referee to decide within a few minutes and I certainly do not take it personally."'

Ondra being characteristically reasonable and honest. He says he's not sure either way and appreciates that the referees have a difficult job. 


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