Oldham lock down info / wimberry crag

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 C133dnb 22 Sep 2020

Does anybody actually understand the local restrictions guidance for the different areas. 

Me and a couple of people are trying to work out if wimberry is out of play or not. Would be about 3 people, 3 households, all from out of area travelling in.

I've gone through the gov. UK restrictions and it appears to be OK, but like all the other restrictions, it's not exactly clear

Wimberry Rocks

 neilh 22 Sep 2020
In reply to C133dnb:

I believe the concensus around Wilton ( Bolton) is no climbing unless soloing.So I would assume its the same unless Wimberry is not acutally in the boundary of Oldham.

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OP C133dnb 22 Sep 2020
In reply to neilh:

Its definitely within the boundary, and that consensus seems totally reasonable to me. Would have been three bouldering, but we will avoid for now.

Thanks for the info

 Red Rover 22 Sep 2020
In reply to neilh:

So climbing is off the cards again? Or just climbing with people not from your household?

 neilh 22 Sep 2020
In reply to Red Rover:

That depends on local restrictions so do not jump to conclusions.Read the gov guidleines for your area.

 neilh 22 Sep 2020
In reply to C133dnb:

Makes sense, the issue with Wimberry is you park in that big public car park by the reservoir( which gets incredibly busy), so its not as though you can be discreet

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 Red Rover 22 Sep 2020
In reply to neilh:

I meant climbing round Oldham.

 Bulls Crack 22 Sep 2020
In reply to C133dnb:

If your visit was organised as a sporting event you might be able to. And you could  share a car with people from outside your group to get there but not climb with them!

As I understand it, the legal restriction, as applies to Bolton, is still the rule of 6 outdoors but the local advice is not to meet others from outside your household.

Whether you should or shouldn't is well travelled territory on here. 

https://www.bolton.gov.uk/coronavirus-support-1/local-restrictions-can-cann... 

 The New NickB 22 Sep 2020
In reply to Red Rover:

Certainly for Oldham it’s any socialising, including informal sport with anyone from outside your household. Exemptions exist for formal activity of clubs, where the governing / representative body has agreed a set of protocols and the club is following those protocols. I’m chairman of a running club in the next town and we could run through Oldham if we wanted, but probably won’t.

 Red Rover 22 Sep 2020
In reply to The New NickB:

I haven't kept up with the rules lately because I've been far too busy to see anyone or do anything (apart from the odd bit of posting on here), hadn't realised it had got so bad again . Looks like the winter will be horrible.

Post edited at 17:20
 The New NickB 22 Sep 2020
In reply to Red Rover:

Only very localised at the moment, but expect it to be more widespread as the numbers continue to rise.

 Andy Say 23 Sep 2020
In reply to C133dnb:

Don't know if this helps - restrictions for Pendle:

"You can continue to take part in organised sporting or licensed physical activity in groups of more than 6. This can be in any public place – indoors or outdoors – but not in a private outdoor space like a garden or inside a private home.

These activities either need to be organised by a national governing body, club, registered instructor/coach, business or charity, and/or involve someone who has received an official licence to use equipment relevant to the activity. In all cases, the organiser must conduct a risk assessment and ensure compliance with COVID-19 secure guidance."

 ashtond6 23 Sep 2020
In reply to neilh:

What are you talking about? Easy to social distance in a bloody car park

 Dewi Williams 23 Sep 2020
In reply to C133dnb:

Why don't you walk up to Wimberry and shoot some grouse, you don't actually have to shoot them, just point your gun in their general direction. You could then do some climbing as an afterthought. All perfectly legal.

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 Misha 23 Sep 2020
In reply to C133dnb:

Interesting question. You are all from outside the area and would be taking part in an outdoors activity and can ensure that you are well away from any locals who might be there. It makes no sense to me that this should not be allowed.

I haven’t looked at the local rules so don’t know what is or isn’t allowed, just pointing out that it seems odd it should not be allowed. This does highlight the issue with general rules not being really suited for outdoor activities. I suspect this time round there will be a lot more people taking a view on things. That might not be the right approach but I think this is what will happen. 

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 Dewi Williams 23 Sep 2020
In reply to Misha:

I think you are right. I live in Baildon which falls within Bradford which has a local lockdown. The Council website states you cannot meet other people in your home or garden and discourages you from meeting people outside in public. It only discourages as no law has been passed to prevent this.

I think there is a safe argument that climbing outside at Wimberry is much safer than sitting inside a pub all day or shopping in a busy Asda. 

 Si dH 23 Sep 2020
In reply to Dewi Williams:

I've just looked at the legislation that covers Oldham:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/828/contents

Similarly to Merseyside and the North East (which are covered under a different piece of legislation) I can only see legal restrictions on gatherings in private dwellings, nothing about outside on public land. The legal restrictions outside on public land are only those applying at a national level, which limits social gatherings to six people but does not limit the number of households involved.

Am I missing something?

Edit to add that I have now also reviewed the guidance page on the local regs here, which is written more for public consumption:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/greater-manchester-local-restrictions

This may be more digestible for those not of a legal bent. It is clear to me that the only rule restricting social contact away from private dwellings is the national rule of six. So many of the comments on this thread are based on a mis understanding. There is absolutely no legal reason to restrict your outside bouldering in groups of 3 (Note, Bolton has its own regs, which I haven't looked at.)

Second edit to add: there is no relevant restriction in Bolton either. You definitely don't need to go soloing at Wilton.

Post edited at 17:51
 off-duty 24 Sep 2020
In reply to Si dH:

From the guidance:

If you live in the affected local area, you must not meet or host people you do not live with in private homes or gardens unless they are in your support bubble. In addition to these restrictions, we advise that you should not:

socialise with people you do not live with, unless they’re in your support bubble, in any public venue. This applies to inside and outside of the affected areas. Examples of public venues include pubs, restaurants, cafes, shops, places of worship, community centres, leisure and entertainment venues, or visitor attractions and parks

And worth bearing in mind for Bolton;

We advise that you should only travel for essential reasons when travelling into, within and out of Bolton. We encourage you to walk or cycle where possible and to plan your journey in advance, avoiding busy times and routes if possible.

Post edited at 19:44
 Si dH 24 Sep 2020
In reply to off-duty:

Indeed. It's local council advice in some areas but it is not legally enforceable in any way. It's an area in which you are allowed to use your common sense.

 off-duty 24 Sep 2020
In reply to Si dH:

> Indeed. It's local council advice in some areas but it is not legally enforceable in any way. It's an area in which you are allowed to use your common sense.

Sorry, I can't see "use your common sense" anywhere in that guidance.

I think you mean "ignore the specific advice for Oldham and Bolton".

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 Si dH 24 Sep 2020
In reply to off-duty:

I was explaining the legal situation. What you have posted is just local **advice**. As I said above, there is no legal reason to restrict household numbers outside on public land in any of these areas. The law contains absolutely zero mention of it - I posted the link to the legislation for you. You just have to stay under 6 people. 

Post edited at 20:36
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 off-duty 24 Sep 2020
In reply to Si dH:

> I was explaining the legal situation. What you have posted is just local **advice**. As I said above, there is no legal reason to restrict household numbers outside on public land in any of these areas. The law contains absolutely zero mention of it - I posted the link to the legislation for you. You just have to stay under 6 people. 

You posted the links to the specific guidance for Oldham. You then referred to checking the specific guidance for Bolton.

I've reproduced the relevant sections for you.

Feel free to revert to the same arguments about "But ....it's not actually 'illegal'....." that were had less than 6 months and more than 40,000 deaths ago.  All I'll say is what I said then - we can't legislate and police our way out of a public health crisis, and lethal global pandemic.

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 veteye 24 Sep 2020
In reply to off-duty:

we can't legislate and police our way out of a public health crisis, and lethal global pandemic.

Possibly not, but you can use common sense. It is entirely possible to visit Wimberry, or Dovestones etc without coming remotely close to other people. You don't even have to travel through Oldham. Instead you can come from the Meltham or Holmfirth end of the moor, and just be careful on parking. You could park higher up the moor, and possibly climb at Ravenstones instead, or walk through to Wimberry.

As an alternative, I climbed at Pule Hill last Sunday, and we were the only people climbing there. In the afternoon the local mountain rescue team did some exercises near the quarry end, but they were 400 metres plus away from us. Previous to that, I climbed at the same venue, and saw no other climbers at all, and that was probably about 4-5 weeks ago. There are people walking on the top, but even they are few and far between.

This compares to the couple of times that I have climbed at Stanage since the lockdown was relaxed, where people are more closely fitted along the crag, and people are probably more forgetful of the need to take care.

 Si dH 24 Sep 2020
In reply to off-duty:

> You posted the links to the specific guidance for Oldham. You then referred to checking the specific guidance for Bolton.

It was the Bolton-specific legislation I looked at. The only difference I saw vs the rest of Greater Manchester is that in Bolton they were already restricting the hospitality opening hours, whereas in Greater Manchester they haven't done that until the new national legislation comes in. There are certainly no differences wrt socialising outdoors.

 Si dH 24 Sep 2020
In reply to off-duty:

I realise you are just trying to put across a careful perspective on the pandemic and I respect that. Furthermore I agree that we can't legislate our way out of a pandemic. However, the government *have* legislated to significantly restrict the population's freedoms in specific ways, while allowing people to make sensible judgements about other situations where the risk is less clear. I think it's really important to let people know what law actually *is* and not what someone else thinks it should be, nor what guidance people think they should interpret as a prescriptive rule. Misunderstanding the law will make people (a) curtail their liberty unnecessarily, (b) lose respect for the system when they see laws that they think make no sense in situations where they could easily apply some judgement. 

I'm lucky enough to have some basic legal training so that is what I tried to do on this thread. The misunderstanding seemed to be almost universal.

Post edited at 21:14
 off-duty 24 Sep 2020
In reply to Si dH:

> I realise you are just trying to put across a careful perspective on the pandemic and I respect that. Furthermore I agree that we can't legislate our way out of a pandemic. However, the government *have* legislated to significantly restrict the population's freedoms in specific ways, while allowing people to make sensible judgements about other situations where the risk is less clear. I think it's really important to let people know what law actually *is* and not what someone else thinks it should be, or what guidance people think they should interpret as a prescriptive rule. Misunderstanding the law will make people (a) curtail their liberty unnecessarily, (b) lose respect for the system when they see laws that they think make no sense in situations where they could easily apply some judgement. 

> I'm lucky enough to have some basic legal training so that is what I tried to do on this thread. The misunderstanding seemed to be almost universal.

You linked to the Government advice specifically around Bolton and Oldham.

I've quoted the relevant parts. It's not "local council advice".

It's quite clear from the local advice that it is "advice" not enforceable/illegal.

Ignoring that advice isn't "using common sense", "misunderstanding the law" or an invitation to " use common sense" - it's quite simply "ignoring that advice".

The UK is a big old place. You want to travel to one or two of the places under tighter lockdown than anywhere else in the UK in order to carry out your hobby at a place of your convenience.

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 Tom Valentine 24 Sep 2020
In reply to veteye:

But legally, wherever you park , if you climb at Wimberry you are climbing in Oldham. 

Things were much simpler before Maud.

 veteye 25 Sep 2020
In reply to Tom Valentine:

But read the other parts of the thread about the legality of that circumstance.

 Tom Valentine 25 Sep 2020
In reply to veteye:

Merely pointing out that where you park is not really an issue.

All the same, anyone who parks outside the Oldham boundary on the A635 and walks in to Wimberry for a spot of bouldering will earn my admiration.

 veteye 25 Sep 2020
In reply to Tom Valentine:

Besides the other crags are good to climb at, before you get to Wimberry.


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