/ New Lakes Rockfax photos - inspiring or what?

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Seymore Butt 19:45 Thu

With the new set of excellent rockfax climbing shots in the lakes as shown in latest photos. Will they inspire climbers to forego the bolted honeypots of Bram crag quarry and chapel head scar and head to the hills once again?.

Unfortunately apart from the odd few, I think not.

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Jon Stewart 20:51 Thu
In reply to Seymore Butt:

I can see the appeal of Chapel, if you're into sport climbing it's the real deal. Bram on the other hand is just bolts in choss and it saddens me that people choose that over the great crags within a few minutes drive or walk, e.g. Castle Rock, Iron (ok, maybe more than a "few minutes" but it's not exactly far). The Bram crowd aren't "sport climbers" in the redpointing sense, doing something that trad climbing doesn't offer: they're just lazy bastards who'd rather risk death by rockfall than place a couple of wires.

Obviously this is a deliberately provocative view...but for god's sake, have you guys not noticed that the place is a shithole?

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bouldery bits 21:24 Thu
In reply to Jon Stewart:

They're welcome to it Jon. Leave 'em there! 

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Rick Graham 21:27 Thu
In reply to Jon Stewart:

It may be a shithole but for me it was a new shithole.

At least the newly discovered crags in the duddon have a nice setting.

Not been to bram for a few months, must be time for another visit, col must have done a few more , bless.

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Jon Stewart 21:45 Thu
In reply to Rick Graham:

> It may be a shithole but for me it was a new shithole.

Yes, I appreciate this is the critical factor for many. Personally, I'm so much happier repeating something great than climbing something that's obviously dogshit for the first time. 

If you do go back for more, isn't it with a sense of dread and disbelief at the new depths Col might have plumbed? I've only been a couple of times, and the seemingly appealing route I chose nearly collapsed on top of me. That was presumably an "established classic" or something! 

I used to climb in the Peak, and my relationship with Horseshoe and GG's tireless work was identical. For god's sake, stop!

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Seymore Butt 22:51 Thu
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Jon , thanks for the reply. But I think you've deviated from my point (although I enjoyed climbing at bram and chapel head myself in the past). That is, will the climbing community head to the higher crags to embrace the delights of trad climbing in a more pleasing,exciting and risky environment.

Although I've had to give up after 55 years of climbing due to a mountain biking accident 2 years ago. The last few times I climbed on the lakes high crags in perfect weather conditions, scafell east buttress,  esk buttress, bowfell and iron crag we've had the crags to ourselves. Some cynics who like the solitude might think this is as it should be.

But the absence of fellow climbers was to me saddening, when there are so many classic and not so classic routes not being ascended, disappearing under a carpet of vegetation probably never to be revealed and climbed  again.

This I feel is what is happening unfortunately even with photos showing the lakes at its best . It will not make the lakes high crags anymore popular.

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Jon Stewart 23:21 Thu
In reply to Seymore Butt:

I think your fears that the crags are becoming deserted are probably unfounded. I went to Pavey on one of the last decent days in September and it was rammed - we were forced round onto the cold and rather dank East Wall as the routes above Jack's Rake were all busy. Dow is always busy on a good day with people on the classic easier routes, but Tumble and Holocaust got a couple of ascents last time I went up too. On a good day in the summer, a good crag like say Neckband will be getting loads of traffic. The classic routes on Scafell, Gable and even Pillar all get done when the weather's good. When I've been to Esk Buttress there's been no one else there, but it's basically immaculate anyway.

I hope that the new guide will encourage more people onto the high crags, but with or without it, Lakeland trad climbing is still alive and well IMO. It's a bit too much effort, and a bit too wet and grimy for many climbers from an indoor/sport/bouldering background, but there are still enough people to keep the routes alive. Not the really minor crags mind you, but if they return to nature, so be it.

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Robert Durran 23:33 Thu
In reply to Seymore Butt:

> With the new set of excellent rockfax climbing shots in the lakes as shown in latest photos. Will they inspire climbers to forego the bolted honeypots of Bram crag quarry and chapel head scar and head to the hills once again?.

I, for one, have found them pretty inspiring. I'd have to be desperate to clip bolts in the Lakes and, to be honest, I always have misgivings about heading south of the border (not because of the quality of the climbing, but because of the crowded roads and often crowded and overpriced camping and parking), but some of these photos make me really want to get back there. Especially the Scafell one - not sure how I've got to my age without doing a single route there - given the weather, I'd be like a child set loose in a sweet shop

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Jon Stewart 00:28 Fri
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Especially the Scafell one - not sure how I've got to my age without doing a single route there - given the weather, I'd be like a child set loose in a sweet shop

Esk buttress is a superb destination crag too, and more often in condition. Definitely worth the drive - and walk. 

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Robert Durran 07:48 Fri
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Esk buttress is a superb destination crag too, and more often in condition. Definitely worth the drive - and walk. 

I have had a couple of excellent days there! 

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In reply to Seymore Butt:

Thanks for noticing the photos and glad you like them. Mark (Glaister) and Mike (Hutton) have put in a huge amount of effort to get these photos since many of these crags don't have a big back catalogue of great photos associated with them.

The book is at the printers now and will be published in early November. We are opening the special pre-order offer next week and the app version should be available next week as well.

https://www.rockfax.com/climbing-guides/books/lake-district-climbs/

Alan

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C Witter 09:52 Fri
In reply to Seymore Butt:

I'm slightly confused as to why a Rockfax guide is necessary, given that the FRCC guides are so good. Though... they have been taking a long time to get new guides out for Coniston, Eskdale and the Duddon. What does the Rockfax guide bring to Lakes climbing that the Wired Guide of a couple of years ago hasn't already delivered?

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In reply to C Witter:

> I'm slightly confused as to why a Rockfax guide is necessary, given that the FRCC guides are so good. Though... they have been taking a long time to get new guides out for Coniston, Eskdale and the Duddon. What does the Rockfax guide bring to Lakes climbing that the Wired Guide of a couple of years ago hasn't already delivered?

I am always curious as to why people ask this question. Surely more coverage is a good thing for areas like Lakes trad? A different perspective, inspiring photographs, alternative descriptions and route choice, content available in print and digital - these are good things for an area that a new Rockfax brings.

Alan

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Will Hunt 10:36 Fri
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

Are these the photos that didn't make the cut or are they also included in the book?

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In reply to Will Hunt:

> Are these the photos that didn't make the cut or are they also included in the book?

They a sample of some of the photos in the book, or occasionally from the same sequence. They are actually there to link in with the Rockfax app since that draws its main crag feature images from UKC Logbook.

Alan

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alan moore 12:06 Fri
In reply to C Witter:

I thought the Lakes Wired guide was one of the best selective guides I've seen; up there with Pat Littlejohn's SW Climbs.

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Rob Parsons 12:08 Fri
In reply to Seymore Butt:

> With the new set of excellent rockfax climbing shots in the lakes as shown in latest photos.

Where are these photos?

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C Witter 12:21 Fri
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

> I am always curious as to why people ask this question.

I'm not a guidebook writer or an FRCC member, but my understanding is people sometimes get prickly about this for the simple reason that they feel Rockfax guides crib a lot of information from existing guides and then go into direct competition with the guides they are cribbed from.

I'm not making that accusation myself, mind. Perhaps the guide does have radically new descriptions , upends the existing system of valuation, and provides valuable information on new and neglected routes and crags. Or perhaps it will only contribute to the trend of climbers being funnelled toward a few popular three star and classic routes. I've not read it, so I couldn't possibly say. I look forward to leafing through it when the chance arises. 
 

Post edited at 12:22
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In reply to Rob Parsons:

> Where are these photos?

You can currently see them if you view the Trad Photo gallery and scroll down a bit - https://www.ukclimbing.com/photos/?category=1

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WVRox 12:53 Fri
In reply to alan moore:

I thought it was one of the worst! 

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In reply to C Witter:

> I'm not a guidebook writer or an FRCC member, but my understanding is people sometimes get prickly about this for the simple reason that they feel Rockfax guides crib a lot of information from existing guides and then go into direct competition with the guides they are cribbed from.

Well this cheap point has been trotted out but no-one has ever put any substance on it and I can assure you that those photos didn't take themselves. The point could be easily reversed for many of the areas we now cover but we don't do that since we know that anyone who actually puts a guidebook together will certainly have put a tremendous effort in and will appreciate the hollowness of such a comment.

> I'm not making that accusation myself, mind.

Then I would suggest that you shouldn't even say it. After 29 years of producing guidebooks I think we have earned our place as worthy joint custodians of the historical record of British climbing, especially with regard to bouldering, sport climbing and online record.

> Or perhaps it will only contribute to the trend of climbers being funnelled toward a few popular three star and classic routes.

Again, a point made sporadically over the years but with nothing to suggest that it is even remotely true. In fact I think it patently obvious that more sport climbing and bouldering has probably cut down the traffic on mountain routes and three star trad lines although this is probably countered by there being more climbers active. The idea that climbers used to spread themselves across all available routes at a crag, irrespective of stars, is obviously nonsense. (Remove the stars and you would get even fewer routes targeted, but that is a different debate - https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/stars_in_guidebooks_yes_or_no-17 )

Alan

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Rob Parsons 13:17 Fri
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

> You can currently see them if you view the Trad Photo gallery and scroll down a bit - https://www.ukclimbing.com/photos/?category=1


Thanks. Some nice shots there.

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Tom Ripley 14:29 Fri
In reply to C Witter:

Have you used the Wires Guide to the Lakes it? It is possibly the worst UK Guidebook to come out in recent years.

It is like the authors copied a Rockfax guide, without doing any of the things that make a Rockfax guide, actually good. 

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Mark Eddy 15:00 Fri
In reply to Tom Ripley:

I use the Wired Guide regularly and it works well. Yes improvements can be made, but we could say that about absolutely everything. So although much larger than the previous 'Selected' guide to the Lakes, it generally offers more information and has photo-topos, as is the case with most modern publications.

Having a Rockfax guide for the Lakes too may attract more climbers onto the trad/mountain venues and that's a good thing. The Lakes has some amazing climbing on offer, the best of it being far from the road, so make a day of it

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Will Hunt 16:12 Fri
In reply to Tom Ripley:

Could you elaborate on what those things that make a Rockfax guide good are?

Post edited at 16:12
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In reply to Will Hunt:

> Could you elaborate on what those things that make a Rockfax guide good are?

I'll take the liberty of putting some of the things we think make them good. I am sure that some of these are also present in the Wired guide.

1) Routes and topos always on the same page
2) Routes always listed left to right with page geography that reflects what is in front of you (ie. turn the page to the right and look right, turn it left and look left)
3) Topos properly split across the spine of the book so detail isn't lost in the fold
4) Clear crag, buttress and route symbols that are easy to use and not continually being added to
5) Consistent use of approach and descent information in the same place so it is always easy to find
6) Clear and detailed maps, either never more than a page or two away, or clearly reference to a page elsewhere
7) Maps with north always at the top and geo-accurate
8) Cross-referenced page numbers all over the place so that you can find anywhere on a map or overview without going to the index/contents
9) Double cross referenced action photos so you can find the description from the photo, and the photo from the description
10) Standard use of arrows and text on topos to ensure clear approaches and descents are used and obvious
11) Massive detailed photo-topos printed as big as possible
12) Route descriptions made as autonomous as possible so that you don't need to read the previous routes in order to track down where you are
13) Contents 'thumb tabs' to allow quick navigation without going to the contents page
14) Everything linked to online versions so that you can tick the routes and give feedback
15) All available in digital and print form

I'll stop there because I am sure you were aware of most of those features already Will.

Alan
 

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overdrawnboy 17:19 Fri
In reply to Seymore Butt:

I think it's the "trad" weather and the "trad" walks that keep most of the high lakes crags in their state of comparative neglect. 

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C Witter 18:17 Fri
In reply to Tom Ripley:

I think you're talking nonsense, to be honest. But, feel free to justify your comment.

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C Witter 18:33 Fri
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

A fair response, if a bit overly defensive. I suppose the record of British climbing is not something that can or should be monopolised - whether that is by historically important climbing clubs, by locals, or by enterprising businesses. It's a debate to be had, but perhaps not one in which fault should be laid at Rockfax's doorstep. 

 

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kevin stephens 18:37 Fri
In reply to Seymore Butt:

Back to the OP, from what I've seen yes.  The Lakes climbing needs to be more popular if only to keep the less trodden routes clean, and it has a lot to offer climbers (when it's not raining).  I have a full set of the excellent FRCC guides but they don't really Sell the Lakes to newer climbers in the way that the Rockfax may. I haven't seen the Wired guide so I don't know how good it is.  Hopefully the new Rockfax will encourage climbers to go a bit deeper and start buying the FRCC guides.

Were all the Rockfax photos shot specially or did you dip into the galleries in UKC too?

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In reply to C Witter:

> A fair response, if a bit overly defensive. I suppose the record of British climbing is not something that can or should be monopolised - whether that is by historically important climbing clubs, by locals, or by enterprising businesses. It's a debate to be had, but perhaps not one in which fault should be laid at Rockfax's doorstep. 

This assumes that there is 'fault' to be had. Personally I think British guidebooks and the historical record of our climbing are in a great place - arguably they have never been better.

Alan

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In reply to kevin stephens:

> Were all the Rockfax photos shot specially or did you dip into the galleries in UKC too?

I can't think of many gallery photos in there. We do use UKC Photos with some books but the quality and quantity of photos for high Lakeland crags is not that great, which isn't surprising really since most people just want to have a great day out climbing once you have invested the time in getting there.

Alan

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Tom Ripley 18:54 Fri
In reply to Mark Eddy:

> I use the Wired Guide regularly and it works well. Yes improvements can be made, but we could say that about absolutely everything. So although much larger than the previous 'Selected' guide to the Lakes, it generally offers more information and has photo-topos, as is the case with most modern publications.

So you get annoyed by any of the following:

- crags described from right to left

- double page spreads where the routes are lost in the drop

- 3 star classics at popular crags being bizarrely missed out (Trilogy).

- Almost unusable crag descriptions if you are a first time visitor.

- over shortened descriptions for classic low grade routes... (Giants Crawl)

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Tom Ripley 18:57 Fri
In reply to C Witter:

See my other reply. I’m not saying you can’t use the wired guide, it just doesn’t make your life easy like the RF will. 

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Mark Eddy 19:34 Fri
In reply to Tom Ripley:

No I don't get annoyed by those things, or by much to be honest

Trilogy isn't on my radar so I wouldn't have even noticed its omission.

But is it really an 'overly shortened' description for Giant's Crawl? Splitting the route into 2 sections makes perfect sense, and along with the topo, the description is perfectly adequate. Not being prescriptive about where to belay surely adds to the overall adventure, and it's not like the route lacks choice of belay stances.

I can't understand why you think it has 'unusable' descriptions! Maybe we have been visiting different crags, which I suppose is likely if you're climbing the likes of Trilogy.

I'm sure the new RF guide will complement the excellent FRCC Lakes guides, and bring more climbers to enjoy the wonderful rock the Lake District offers

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TobyA 19:40 Fri
In reply to C Witter:

> A fair response, if a bit overly defensive.

Come on Mr Witter, if Alan was being a bit defensive perhaps it was because your "I'm not making that accusation myself, mind" comment straight after making it was on the Trumpian scale of disingenuousness. Oh well, it's all for the Lolz these days I'm sure.

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planetmarshall 21:35 Fri
In reply to TobyA:

> ...your "I'm not making that accusation myself, mind" comment straight after making it was on the Trumpian scale of disingenuousness.

Trump would never have been that subtle. I thought it more a clumsy riff on Francis Urquhart's "You might say that, I couldn't possibly comment..."

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Misha 23:10 Fri
In reply to C Witter:

It was great when the Wired (FRCC) guide came out as it was way better than the previous selective and the old style comprehensives, which still haven’t been updated for some of the areas. It’s a good guide but not as good and inspirational as it could be. Look forward to seeing the Rockfax. I suspect/hope it will be better presented, with better topos (there are some rather grainy ones in the Wires) and photos (there aren’t that many good ones in the Wired). It might push the next edition of the Wired (if there will be one) to be better.

Nothing like some competition to push standards! Which we have Rockfax to thank for over the last 20 years.

Incidentally, the Pembroke Wired (CC) is way better than the Rockfax and not just because it’s got lots more routes. If Rockfax bring out another Pembroke guide, they will have to make it even better. As guide book users we get to be benefit from these rising standards and increased choice.

Great photos by the way. Is that Ramon on the front cover?

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Jus 23:16 Fri
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

Very inspiring. Got me psyched for next summer!

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C Witter 00:15 Sat
In reply to TobyA:

My tone of disingenuousness was merely a humorous echo of Alan's own disingenuous comment about being "curious" as to why people keep bringing up the critique I mention. I'm with PlanetMarshall that you've no ear for rhetoric if you think I was being Trumpian.

As for my own opinion, personally I'm ambivalent. I think a lot of what Alan said about what the Rockfax guide will "bring to the area" is guff. Also, my understanding is that this is the first Rockfax incursion into the Lakes, and the FRCC does not write guides to the Peak, so his point that, after 29 years, the critique about cribbing from local guides cuts the other way is utterly irrelevant whataboutism in relation to the Lakes (apart from the bouldering guide). I also feel all the points about how I shouldn't comment because of the amount of effort put into guidebooks by their authors is "cheap" and hollow" (to use Alan's own words) and this defensiveness speaks volumes. But, the general discussion about whether going into direct competition with a climbing club in publishing a rival guide is a positive move or not... well, I dunno. Perhaps the Rockfax guide is better edited. Perhaps there are also no grounds for saying Rockfax shouldn't do it. And I have no inside information on how this affects - or doesn't affect - the FRCC guides. So, perhaps it's all actually fine and Alan's point about guide publication being in a good place is correct. I couldn't answer that; maybe someone else can. I just feel protective toward Cumbria, because it's a special place to me (as it is, of course, to many others).

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In reply to Jon Stewart:

> I can see the appeal of Chapel, if you're into sport climbing it's the real deal. Bram on the other hand is just bolts in choss and it saddens me that people choose that over the great crags within a few minutes drive or walk, e.g. Castle Rock, Iron (ok, maybe more than a "few minutes" but it's not exactly far). The Bram crowd aren't "sport climbers" in the redpointing sense, doing something that trad climbing doesn't offer: they're just lazy bastards who'd rather risk death by rockfall than place a couple of wires.

> Obviously this is a deliberately provocative view...but for god's sake, have you guys not noticed that the place is a shithole?

Hallelujah, I thought I was a lone voice on this. Why on earth drive into a national park, Unesco world heritage site, area of outstanding national beauty to climb in a rubbish dump.?

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In reply to C Witter:

I share your concerns. I have a ticklist of headshaking told you so events which fill me with smug despair. 

One of which is the day I sit down in a cc/frcc hut to hear someone moaning about lack of investment in the huts whilst reading a rockfax guide.

It will happen, I will smile and shake my head. 

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In reply to C Witter:

> As for my own opinion, personally I'm ambivalent. I think a lot of what Alan said about what the Rockfax guide will "bring to the area" is guff.

Which bits specifically are guff?

> Also, my understanding is that this is the first Rockfax incursion into the Lakes, and the FRCC does not write guides to the Peak, so his point that, after 29 years, the critique about cribbing from local guides cuts the other way is utterly irrelevant whataboutism in relation to the Lakes (apart from the bouldering guide).

Lakes Rockfax 1994 had content never previously published (admittedly not stuff we have in the new guide). The FRCC approached me and published one of my topos from this book in their supplement in 1995 ish which I was perfectly happy with.

Lake District crags and routes have been part of the UKC Logbook system since 2005 with thousands of comments and votes and useful information publicly available.

> I also feel all the points about how I shouldn't comment because of the amount of effort put into guidebooks by their authors is "cheap" and hollow" (to use Alan's own words) and this defensiveness speaks volumes.

And those "volumes" are?

You are missing my point here. No-one who produces a decent guidebook cribs stuff but it is easy to make that accusation if you take a superficial look, which is why it is a cheap thing to say. The fact it has been said repeatedly for many years without anyone ever actually providing any evidence of it happening is what makes it hollow.

> But, the general discussion about whether going into direct competition with a climbing club in publishing a rival guide is a positive move or not... well, I dunno.

It's not like there aren't any case studies in other areas of the country. Maybe you could look at those and make your mind up?

Alan

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In reply to Presley Whippet:

> I share your concerns. I have a ticklist of headshaking told you so events which fill me with smug despair. 

Have any of the things on your ticklist actually happened yet?

> One of which is the day I sit down in a cc/frcc hut to hear someone moaning about lack of investment in the huts whilst reading a rockfax guide.

Yeah, that would be like absorbing the content of a free web site and then questioning the method by which it was funded.

Alan

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In reply to Misha:

> Great photos by the way. Is that Ramon on the front cover?

Yes on Dow Crag.

I agree that the Paul and Emma's Pembroke guide is excellent.

Alan

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In reply to Presley Whippet:

> One of which is the day I sit down in a cc/frcc hut to hear someone moaning about lack of investment in the huts whilst reading a rockfax guide.

... I have no idea what sitting in a CC / FRCC reading a Rockfax guidebook has to do with lack of investment in said hut(s)... I'd be interested to know though...

... one could make a forceful argument that the availability of Rockfax guidebooks may encourage more folk to climb, and therefore stay, in the area(s) where CC / FRCC huts are sited, mainly the mountain areas of England and Wales... their hut fees contribute to the wellbeing and upkeep of whichever clubs huts they use...

If you are suggesting, which, reading between the lines I think you are, and apologies in advance if I'm wrong, that sales of Rockfax guidebooks impact on sales of 'club' guidebooks, then you may have a point...

... but if you think that the lack of investment in club huts is due to the lower income derived from the sale of club guidebooks you are plain wrong and way off route (no pun intended) on this...

Post edited at 11:49
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TobyA 14:30 Sat
In reply to C Witter:

I don't think there is anything disingenuous about Alan's question. Certain people have turned up on these threads about Rockfax for what seems like well over a decade to grind the same axes. The irony of people making the same claims year after year about Rockfax as vampires or whatever on UKC, a free-to-user climbing website, that came out of Rockfax isn't lost on me at least.

Rockfax have published two Lakes guides, in the 90s and 00, so this isn't their "first incursion". There is something a bit depressingly territorial about using the word "incursion" isn't there? If somehow 'the locals' get to say who write guidebooks to an area, do they get to pick who gets to climb there too? Local crags for local people?

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In reply to Richard Wheeldon:

> ... I have no idea what sitting in a CC / FRCC reading a Rockfax guidebook has to do with lack of investment in said hut(s)... I'd be interested to know though...

> If you are suggesting, which, reading between the lines I think you are, and apologies in advance if I'm wrong, that sales of Rockfax guidebooks impact on sales of 'club' guidebooks, then you may have a point...

Yes, this. 

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In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

> Have any of the things on your ticklist actually happened yet?

Yes, boulder brushes, commercial brush sticks,  those funny rubber band ankle shoe things the yanks are lapping up

> Yeah, that would be like absorbing the content of a free web site and then questioning the method by which it was funded.

You mean accessing a freely provided service which registers a hit which then contributes to the advertising revenue which supports the service? 

If ukc is a nett drain on rockfax profits then something is wrong. 

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In reply to Presley Whippet:

> Yes, boulder brushes, commercial brush sticks,  those funny rubber band ankle shoe things the yanks are lapping up

Ah, the scourge of soft-bristle brushes. ..... um, what is it about these that spoils your climbing? ...... and the ones on sticks?

> You mean accessing a freely provided service which registers a hit which then contributes to the advertising revenue which supports the service? 

It doesn’t work that way. Your click is initially a cost to us because of bandwidth but if we put some effort in then we can sell the numbers to advertisers, but don’t labour under the illusion that each time you click a little pot of money counter goes up.

To go back to your hut question - presumably you are suggesting that because you have ‘paid’ to access this site by ‘clicking’ then you are well within your rights to criticise its methods? Wouldn’t that also apply to the people in the hut with the Rockfax who had paid their hut fees but were moaning about the leaky window?

> If ukc is a nett drain on rockfax profits then something is wrong. 

UKC and Rockfax are totally intertwined these days but there is no doubt that UKC wouldn’t exist had it not been subsidised for around 15 years by Rockfax (and Rock and Run for some of the time). When we spent money on UKC back then we didn’t regard it as a “nett drain”, we thought of it as investing in the future of the business by making more good stuff for climbers. A bit like we have been doing recently with the app, and similar to the CC buying some plastic windows.

Alan

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Greenbanks 22:34 Sat
In reply to Seymore Butt:

To those of us who still yearn the smell, the sounds and the views of the Lakes, but who live at some distance away...these pics are great, so keep them coming. What a mean-spirited bunch you are...they're a gift, they cost you nothing. You could print 'em, save them to await my corpse and wrap me in them. I'd be a happy man!

 

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Lankyman 08:34 Sun
In reply to Greenbanks:

> To those of us who still yearn the smell, the sounds and the views of the Lakes

I can see folks sitting in those FRCC huts clutching their Rockfaxes and staring at the rain beating on the window and suspecting they may have been sold a pup ....

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