Multi-pitch belays: block leading

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 bpmclimb 18 Mar 2023

I'm about to go on a trip to Spain, and given the make-up of our party I'm expecting to do much if not all of the leading on multipitch routes (these are variously fully or partially equipped; I'm expecting the belays to be bolted, at least).

Just deciding what gear to take for the belays - I'll need a minimum of two belay setups as I'll generally be leaving one behind. Generally climbing as two, maybe sometimes 3/4. Selecting from the following: just 120/240 slings, cordelette(s), Grivel Vlad (on lowest bolt with banshee-type link), could also take stitched rope personal lanyard.

Big topic, I know, but I'd be interested to hear what people find most convenient/fastest, specifically for block leading?

 Ciro 18 Mar 2023
In reply to bpmclimb:

If you're going on partially equipped multipitch routes with multiple seconds, I'd go with the assumption that equalised trad anchors may be occasionally required, and plan accordingly. Better to be overprepared than have to faff around when you run out of rope on an unprotected section when the guidebook pitch length was wrong, or you climbed past a belay with a missing bolt.

1
 wbo2 18 Mar 2023
In reply to bpmclimb:Some screwgates and a Petzl lanyard per person 

2
 planetmarshall 18 Mar 2023
In reply to bpmclimb:

> Big topic, I know, but I'd be interested to hear what people find most convenient/fastest, specifically for block leading?

Used a bit less in the UK due to the absence of equipped belays, but if you're expecting to find bolts I'd recommend carrying a couple of pre-tied quads, tied either from cordelette (more flexible but extra faff) or 240cm slings (less flexible but lighter qland more compact).

1
 Fellover 18 Mar 2023
In reply to bpmclimb:

Massive can of worms you're opening here... There are a million different options for bolted belays and lots of them can be really, really quick. Pick the one you like the most/is the most controversial/the most complicated/the simplest and then spend your time telling your partners why their chosen bolted belay setup is rubbish/deadly/loses them 43 seconds per belay compared with yours. Endless fun without ever actually having to climb anything.

If you're in a three or four I think having a rope independent tether/PAS is very useful, along with a suitable point or points on the belay that people are happy to be attached to. (IMO this suitable point can just be either bolt in a bolted belay, as long as the bolts seem decent and are attached together by something, but I will wait to be old off for this deathly suggestion.)

 beardy mike 18 Mar 2023
In reply to bpmclimb:

If it were me and I were climbing with 4 climbers, I would potentially think about taking a single rope and a pair of doubles, so that you can lead which your second belays you on an assisted lock device and the other two on a magic plate. Would save time, although the person in the middle would need to be really competent belaying... Petzl connect for all climbers and single point belays. On bolts that would mean a 120 sling IMO.

1
 Godwin 18 Mar 2023
In reply to bpmclimb:

I have noticed this in decathlon https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/climbing-single-lanyard-75-cm/_/R-p-114525?mc... and may or may not be of use. 

1
 wbo2 18 Mar 2023
In reply to Godwin:

Nonadjustable.... this is better https://www.petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/Lanyards/DUAL-CONNECT-ADJUST.  Far better than faffing around with slings, cordelettes etc....

 Steve Claw 18 Mar 2023
In reply to wbo2:

Or a much cheaper option is a piece of old 9mm rope and a Kong Slyde

https://www.alpinstore.com/en/42693-kong-slyde-aluminium-kn-25-blue-cyan.ht...

Post edited at 18:30
 Godwin 18 Mar 2023
In reply to wbo2:

> Nonadjustable.... this is better https://www.petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/Lanyards/DUAL-CONNECT-ADJUST.  Far better than faffing around with slings, cordelettes etc....

Probably, but the price seems very reasonable.

 Cameron_S 18 Mar 2023
In reply to bpmclimb:

I'm a big fan on bolted belays of having an Edelrid Aramid Cord sling pre tied as a bowline on a bight. I attach 1 screw gate to the bowline loop and the other to other loop of the sling, I then wear it around my chest like you might a 120cm sling.

When you get to the belay simply clip each screwgate to a bolt and then attach everything to the 2 loops made by the bowline bight. So yourself with a lanyard, belay plate in guide mode and your seconds when they arrive.

Have a second bring up the other pre made anchor setup from the previous stace then off you go.

Another couple of things I've played about with to make things more efficent are - when belaying in guide mode, when the second arrives at the anchor just tie an overhand below the device as a backup knot, take the seconds belay device from their harness and dont tie them to the anchor. So they're sat on the locked off guide plate, they can adjust their position with the plate so no need for a lanyard.

When you're bringing the seconds up instead of letting the rope stack on a ledge or lap coiling it at a hanging stance. What I do is place a large HMS onto a high point of the anchor such as a bolt and once I have say a 5 metre loop I tie a slip knot and clip into the HMS. I then repeat this until the second arrives.  Then you can rotate the HMS around so the gate and spine switch places. This means that the end of the rope closest to you is now at the gate of the HMS. As you lead the second removes the slip knots to get slack as they belay.

This means you don't have to reflake the rope so your end is on top or untie and retie. That technique takes some getting used to but if you're on a long route and block leading not reflaking saves some time, it also means the rope is less likely to get knotted.

 LucaC 18 Mar 2023
In reply to bpmclimb:

There are some great ideas here for block leading, but my advice (as someone who does hundreds of block lead pitches a year for work) is to keep it simple. 

Build an appropriate anchor with a sling to form a master point. Any equalising knot will do, but you might find some easier to untie than others. Use a clove hitch or girth hitch with additional crab as a master point if you want to make it really easy to untie the anchor sling. A 120cm on two bolts is perfect, or a 240cm sling on 3 pieces of gear will work too. On some bolted anchors you may just be able to use the central ring if it's large enough. 

Belay your two seconds, on two separate single/triple rated ropes, with a guide plate.

After arriving at the anchor, each second ties into the master point with their rope using a clove hitch. Be careful of how the ropes run to avoid tangles. With some practice it's very easy to keep the ropes separate and running cleanly. Practice this transition at home.

Have the seconds back flake their own rope either into a pile or as a lap coil. You can sort the rack whilst they do this.

Once the ropes are back flaked, get yourself on belay and off you go.

Repeat as required. You don't need any extra climbing gear out of the ordinary for this method, except perhaps two 240cm slings if you expect some gear anchors. 

I promise you that this is the safest and easiest way to block lead. Using slings/pas/vlads etc are all possible, but don't really add any speed or safety to the proceedings. 

Climbing as a team of 4 is certainly unusual and operating as two pairs is probably quicker but here's a workflow for you to think about if you somehow end up in that configuration.

- You lead with two ropes and bring up persons 2 & 3.
- Person 2 belays you on your two ropes and you lead the next pitch
- Whilst you lead the next pitch, person 3 belays person 4 up on their own, 3rd rope, which is tied into person 3's harness too. 

This method is probably the quickest to getting everyone up the route, but not something I would advocate as normal climbing procedure! 
 

Post edited at 20:55
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 PaulJepson 18 Mar 2023
In reply to bpmclimb:

If all the anchors are going to be DBBs, would something like a sewn loop daisy chain (like grivel or the metolius PAS) be worthwhile? Would save you having to knot/unknot.

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OP bpmclimb 19 Mar 2023
In reply to PaulJepson:

Got a Grivel one somewhere, hardly ever used it - could be a good option.

To all - thanks for replies, lots of useful thoughts.

 Max factor 19 Mar 2023
In reply to Steve Claw:

You can also buy kong slyde from decathlon. It's perfectly functional, just not quite as slick as the petzl one. Adjustable all day long for comfort. 

 oldie 19 Mar 2023
In reply to wbo2:

> Nonadjustable.... this is better https://www.petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/Lanyards/DUAL-CONNECT-ADJUST.  Far better than faffing around with slings, cordelettes etc....<

Out of interest why the special warning in the Petzl description about avoiding F1 falls ie not to climb above the anchor? After all it's apparently dynamic rope and should be safer than a Dyneema sling in that respect . Perhaps it's simply because it would be similar to climbing using half rope technique with single rated ropes ie danger of impact on climber rather than danger of rope snapping. Not suggesting that one should be clambering around above the anchors.

OP bpmclimb 19 Mar 2023
In reply to Max factor:

> You can also buy kong slyde from decathlon. It's perfectly functional, just not quite as slick as the petzl one. Adjustable all day long for comfort. 


Thanks for the reply (and to all with suggestions for personal lanyards): I already have multiple options in my garage, Connect Adjust, stitched rope lanyards, PAS style daisy, Kong Slyde on a rope, many slings. I was primarily interested in peoples' preferred multipitch belay setups, specifically when expecting to lead most pitches. Just deciding what to pack from the mountain of gear I already have. Nice problem to have, I suppose  

 oldie 19 Mar 2023
In reply to oldie:

Doh. Stupid thoughtlessness in my post above. Belaying on the Connect-adjust is  similar to belaying using two single rated ropes to separate anchors. It is not similar to actually leading on two single rated ropes in which case there is more rope to reduce the impact (that between second and runner) in the system. I've probably answered my own question.

 oliver_tippett 19 Mar 2023
In reply to oldie:

The connect adjust shouldn’t break if you factor 1 it since as you say it’s dynamic, but it’ll hurt you quite a lot. 
 

I took a factor two fall on the longer Petzl Evolv Adjust, which held up fine but my back hurt for a few weeks after.

 beardy mike 19 Mar 2023
In reply to oliver_tippett:

To be fair, falling on any 1m length of rope is going to hurt. That's the nature of impact.

 oliver_tippett 19 Mar 2023
In reply to beardy mike:

You don’t need to tell me!

 PaulJepson 19 Mar 2023
In reply to bpmclimb:

Sorry Brian, I could have been clearer in case you thought I was just suggesting the PAS as another self-tethering system like the adjustable lanyards. 

What I thought it might be useful for is in actually building the anchor (something I've used them for in winter because it's nice to not have to deal with knots).

Theres a picture here that demonstrates the sort of thing but basically you attach each end to a bolt and it is equalised and redundant: https://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/6TheBelay_files/image123.png

Also sorry if you already knew what I meant and I'm trying to teach your nan to suck eggs.

Post edited at 14:32
 Rick Graham 19 Mar 2023
In reply to Cameron_S:

> When you're bringing the seconds up instead of letting the rope stack on a ledge or lap coiling it at a hanging stance. What I do is place a large HMS onto a high point of the anchor such as a bolt and once I have say a 5 metre loop I tie a slip knot and clip into the HMS. I then repeat this until the second arrives. Then you can rotate the HMS around so the gate and spine switch places. This means that the end of the rope closest to you is now at the gate of the HMS. As you lead the second removes the slip knots to get slack as they belay.

> This means you don't have to reflake the rope so your end is on top or untie and retie. That technique takes some getting used to but if you're on a long route and block leading not reflaking saves some time, it also means the rope is less likely to get knotted.

I tend to use a similar system for hanging the rope but use diminishing loop lengths if alternate leading. This means the shorter loops get used first on yhe next pitch and cannot catch or loop under the later longer loops.

If block leading , reverse this method and loop progressively longer loops  but make sure they hang separately to the shorter loops until past the looping under possibility stage.

If good ledges available for stances , if block leading , just pile the rope and turn over so the leaders section is back on top.

I hardly ever set up modern master point belays except for abseil anchors when cleaning new routes, though using a barrel knot ?/ larks foot is great for an easily adjustable and removable after load master point knot. About the best new trick I have adopted in the last ten years or so.

 Rick Graham 19 Mar 2023
In reply to Rick Graham:

Girth hitch not barrel knot, doh.

OP bpmclimb 19 Mar 2023
In reply to PaulJepson:

> Also sorry if you already knew what I meant and I'm trying to teach your nan to suck eggs.

Not at all! Thanks for the link, and the suggestions

 beardy mike 19 Mar 2023
In reply to bpmclimb:

Oh the other technique I have recently discovered thanks to I can't remember what social media, is forming a strongpoint for a belay from an HMS carabiner girth hitched into a sling. Super quick, easy to remove and very adjustable and large enough and clear enough for easy clipping. You could have a kit of two biners, a 120 and an HMS for each belay.

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 TechnoJim 19 Mar 2023
In reply to beardy mike:

After a quick bit of Googling, I really like the look of that for winter - no more wrangling of a frozen, loaded overhand knot. 

Could you still clip another carabiner through both legs of the sling with the girth hitch method, i.e. can you still use the 'shelf'? I can't see why not but I'm worried I'm being dim and missing something.

 beardy mike 19 Mar 2023
In reply to TechnoJim:

I don't see why not. The girth hitch tightens sufficiently to guarantee "leg" independence so I don't see why the shelf wouldn't work. It's really pretty slick. Have seen people carrying abseil rings specifically for the job aswell as an HMS, but you're already carrying an HMS so to me seems like a better way to go as you can use the biner for anything else you need it for... 

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 HeMa 19 Mar 2023
In reply to beardy mike:

It's been floatin' around in TikTok, IG Reels and whotnot...

Indeed a rather nice and slick way of doing an anchor....

Plus, if you fancy, you can do it with just one sling, one small biner and the big hms biner. Simply start the process by girdhitching one of the bolts (not smart, if old non rounded hanger... but really slic if fancy new glue-in bolts... or with rap-rings).

OP bpmclimb 19 Mar 2023
In reply to beardy mike:

> Oh the other technique I have recently discovered thanks to I can't remember what social media, is forming a strongpoint for a belay from an HMS carabiner girth hitched into a sling. Super quick, easy to remove and very adjustable and large enough and clear enough for easy clipping. You could have a kit of two biners, a 120 and an HMS for each belay.


Yes, was just reading up about that and looking at a few You Tube vids. Apparently, the friction (and therefore the redundancy) is improved if you add a sliding x twist first. Obviously, if anchoring to the shelf, security crucially relies on the first carabiner staying in place!

 beardy mike 19 Mar 2023
In reply to bpmclimb:

Yes indeed. On bolts that's rarely an issue though. Just another trick to add to the book. If I'm on a route with separate 2 bolt anchors with only one other I will get to the belay, clip one with my connect and the other with a clove hitch on an HMS. Then when the second gets there they clip the one with the HMS through the bolt with their connect and clove the other. Really easy and quick with barely any extra kit required other than a lanyard and HMS. But only works with a pair.

 timparkin 19 Mar 2023
In reply to bpmclimb:

> Yes, was just reading up about that and looking at a few You Tube vids. Apparently, the friction (and therefore the redundancy) is improved if you add a sliding x twist first.

The sliding X provides redundancy if a single leg gets cut and it slips through the girth hitch.

 ian caton 19 Mar 2023
In reply to bpmclimb:

Four?

A system i have used when leading every pitch. Each if yiu has a daisy chain or similar larks footed into harness. Both of you tie into ropes using two screwgate crabs reversed.

When you get ti belay clove hitch rope(s) onti bolts. Loop rope over rope going from waist to bolt.

When second arrives and clups in. Change over rope ends, they arw then already tied in and the rope is running off the top. 

Super quick and tidy. 

 PaulJepson 19 Mar 2023
In reply to beardy mike:

> Have seen people carrying abseil rings specifically for the job aswell as an HMS, but you're already carrying an HMS so to me seems like a better way to go as you can use the biner for anything else you need it for... 

Cant remember for sure but think it was HNT who tested this and the girth hitch slid at an alarmingly low load (the sort of load you could easily generate by your second falling off even). The round stock of the ab ring doesn't create enough friction - much better using an i-beam krab. 

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 HeMa 20 Mar 2023
In reply to ian caton:

yes, the op specified as a team of four or three.

your system works rather well, in a team of two... but not that well in a team of three (or four). And to be honest, you bring unnecessary stuff along as you can't use your ropes as the tethers (as you need to untie and re-tie the other end). But certainly doable.

Albeit I do find that overall flaking the rope (as soon as the seconds arrive at the belay) doesn't really take all that long... in fact, about the same time as you racking the stuff from their harness or preferably bandolier... and also see where the route is going....

 beardy mike 20 Mar 2023
In reply to PaulJepson:

Fair enough, although you've got to wonder what situation that would occur in. It's a vanishingly small risk on bolted belays and although it's a higher risk on a trad belay, it would be sub-catestrophic unless the sling cut which is again pretty unlikely. As I say, I briefly looked at rings but concluded they aren't really any lighter anyway, especially if you take a large one, and HMS serves a second purpose.

 PaulJepson 20 Mar 2023
In reply to beardy mike:

Yeah, and if it's one of the pieces of kit that fails then I'm guessing it would be unlikely to pull it through a loaded girth hitch anyway, so really the only risk is the sling snapping.

Just doesn't make sense to carry such a specific additional tool when you probably already have 20 things on you that will do the job.

 ian caton 01 Apr 2023
In reply to HeMa:

No retying required with 2 people. Ni surplus kit. Team of 4 is madness.

If you save a minute a belay it is 30 minutes on a 30 pitch route. 

 HeMa 01 Apr 2023
In reply to ian caton:

> No retying required with 2 people.

True, but the OP specified Team of 3 or 4…. Not 2, so that is a moot point.

> Team of 4 is madness.

I agree to an extent. But again that question was for team of 3 or 4.

> If you save a minute a belay it is 30 minutes on a 30 pitch route. 

Damn, where are all these 1500m routes… Oh, you really think a team that is asking about proper anchors is heading up routes with 30 pitches? In a team of 4? I think not.

OP bpmclimb 01 Apr 2023
In reply to He Ma:

> Damn, where are all these 1500m routes… Oh, you really think a team that is asking about proper anchors is heading up routes with 30 pitches? In a team of 4? I think not.

I can confirm that! I was thinking about 150-200 metre routes, and very likely with 3 rather than 4.
By the way, I wasn’t asking for advice about what constitutes a “proper” anchor: just curious about personal preferences of climbers who do a lot of block leading in particular.

 Twiggy Diablo 02 Apr 2023
In reply to bpmclimb:

My biggest top tip (especially for cramped belay ledges) is to clip a supermarket bag for life to the anchor and feed the ropes into it as you bring up your second(s).

when you come to lead off again just grab the pile of rope and flip it inside the bag so your end is back on top. Prevents all kinds of tangling epics.

(Or Edelrid make a more sophisticated version called the “Tillit” for about £15)

 David Coley 02 Apr 2023
In reply to bpmclimb:

I've climbed extensively in a 4 (family). Bolted and trad. Lots of multipitch. 

Big slings or cordelette. Each person ties in with a screwgate and clovehitch. But has a layard on them ready to deploy if the ropes get twisted. 

The order or climbing depends on the competence of the seconds. (Best not to leave the six year old by himself)

 David Coley 02 Apr 2023
In reply to Twiggy Diablo:

> (Or Edelrid make a more sophisticated version called the “Tillit” for about £15)

Just watched the Edelrid video on this. I was kind of impressed. Not sure it would be worth the faff, particularly with short pitches, but I'd like to try it somewhere like El Cap. I also loved the way those guys did it by the book. Belay gloves, Jesus piece.

 ftibbs 02 Apr 2023
In reply to bpmclimb:

If the anchors are a big ring connected by chain (ie a single point) then I go very light- just a guide mode belay device larks footed to a 30cm sling which gets clipped into the big ring. Then each person's clove hitch goes straight onto the ring too with separate screw gates. The 30cm sling just allows for a bit of movement and separation of the belay device. Of course I bring some back up stuff (couple of 120 slings and screw gates) on the back of my harness incase the anchor is not what was expected. For block leading I just re-flake each time.

 ianstevens 03 Apr 2023
In reply to bpmclimb:

Luca pretty much nailed it. Keep it simple, don’t faff about with any of the fancy sounding hitch/sliding X nonsense. To add: also get the seconds to clip all the retrieved gear somewhere (I usually use the rope connecting me to the master point) to expedite re-racking.

Also to add: partially equipped in Spain doesn’t always mean bolt belays in my experience, it can range from pretty much a clip up to one peg in the whole route - so just keep that in mind.

 HeMa 03 Apr 2023
In reply to ianstevens:

> Luca pretty much nailed it. Keep it simple, don’t faff about with any of the fancy sounding hitch/sliding X nonsense. To add: also get the seconds to clip all the retrieved gear somewhere (I usually use the rope connecting me to the master point) to expedite re-racking.


Indeed, in the past when climbing with less experienced secods we've used thick 60cm nylon slings as bandoliers to rack the gear. So instead of uncliping the gear from the rope, they fiddle it free (or unclip from a bolt) and then clip to it to the bandolier, only after that do they unclip it from the rope.  And at the belay I use a long QD to clip the bandolier first to the anchor before they take it off. With more experienced seconds, this might not be needed, and simply lettin' them to clip the stuff the the anchor, or they tether (rope, PAS, sling) is a sound option.

> Also to add: partially equipped in Spain doesn’t always mean bolt belays in my experience, it can range from pretty much a clip up to one peg in the whole route - so just keep that in mind.

This also holds true for the dolomites and alps. The exception is those Plaisir routes, that generally do have bolted belays (but again, not always).

 rgold 03 Apr 2023
In reply to David Coley:

Video at youtube.com/watch?v=Xj0U_0PZmV4& (German with English subtitles).

I think they look like a great idea for half/twin ropes, especially for places like Red Rocks (Nevada, USA) where rope-snagging is an ever-present worry.  They'd presumably work for rappelling as well, not only for windy conditions, but also for "two-way traffic" routes with the rappellers coming down the ascent route. The bags avoid dumping the rap lines on parties below.

 C Witter 03 Apr 2023
In reply to bpmclimb:

This topic is completely overthought, ad tedium, ad nauseum... not simply here but on climbing social media in general. If you're block leading then you'll probably use some form of sling/cord to make a belay rather than the rope. That's all: that's the whole discussion. Every belay will be different; use your skills and judgement.

As for all these PAS systems... ok, there are some marginal benefits... but really they are so much expensive and cumbersome junk...

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 beardy mike 04 Apr 2023
In reply to C Witter:

Cumbersome expensive junk? Wow, couldn't disagree more. Just bought some simond lanyards for 14 quid. They do exactly what it says on the tin. Fair enough if you don't see the point, but for multiple people on  belay, they make things clear and easy, especially using different colours. Now if you really want to talk about pointless pontificating, I'd be thinking more about all the overly complicated cordlette methods, stacked shelves etc you see on Instagram. Having g something you can quickly clip in with either on the way up or on a multipitch abseil as plain useful...

 jwi 04 Apr 2023
In reply to C Witter:

I really like the Petzl Connect Adjust personal anchor system and find that it saves me time and give an extra margin of safety. But what do I know?

 C Witter 05 Apr 2023
In reply to jwi:

> I really like the Petzl Connect Adjust personal anchor system and find that it saves me time and give an extra margin of safety. But what do I know?

Very little to nothing? I'm not sure... Is the rhetorical question in aid of something?

10
 C Witter 05 Apr 2023
In reply to beardy mike:

Personally I don't like climbing with that shite draped around me. Fair enough if you do. Personally, as long as you know the limits of various options, I don't see a lanyard as more beneficial than a sling. Probably vice versa is also true.

Post edited at 00:35
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 rgold 05 Apr 2023
In reply to C Witter:

I like having an installed lanyard in general and the Petzl Connect Adjust in particular.  I wrap it around my waist and it isn't in the way of anything. I don't ever notice it until I want to use it.  Of course, the utility depends to some extent on the kind of terrain you're climbing on.  Some advantages:

  • Instant anchoring roped or not. (For instance, when scrambling changes to belayed climbing or rappelling.)
  • Improves multipitch efficiency.  (Read Mark Twight's Extreme Alpinism for details.)
  • Superb for getting hands-free to work on recalcitrant gear (if another anchor is available or can be placed). This is probably my most frequent application.
  • Facilitates self-help procedures like prusiking and significantly reduces the difficulty of improvised aid.
  • It's fine for rappelling of course, but that's a minor benefit.
  • If you've ever found that you've lashed yourself in an uncomfortable position but don't want to engage in all the faffing to fix it, you'll understand how nice it is to have an instantly adjustable connection.

Some disadvantages;

  • Not actually necessary for anything. (But that goes for a lot of modern climbing gear!)
  • Bulky and gets in the way (not for me).
  • Expensive compared to, say, a double-length sling. (True, but far more useful.)
OP bpmclimb 05 Apr 2023
In reply to C Witter:

> This topic is completely overthought, ad tedium, ad nauseum... not simply here but on climbing social media in general. 

 

I find it interesting, personally, and can think of various topics raised and discussed on UKC more often than this one. But fair enough if you find this topic especially boring. You do have the option of not getting involved in the thread at all, of course!

 C Witter 05 Apr 2023
In reply to rgold:

Great defence of the Adjust. I'm still agnostic about using it, especially outside of sport climbing, but fair enough.

 C Witter 05 Apr 2023
In reply to bpmclimb:

My point isn't that it's boring (of course it is, but that's never stopped me before) but more that using your skills flexibly is better than having "a system", especially a faddy, cumbersome or expensive one.

 beardy mike 05 Apr 2023
In reply to C Witter:

There is a major safety benefit, it's not static. Personally I have many times had to move up above the belay to free up ropes after having pulled them down from a multipitch abseil. Falling on a sling doesn't bear thinking about. Plus it's just messy. I used to do it, changed to a lanyard and never looked back...

 beardy mike 05 Apr 2023
In reply to C Witter:

> but more that using your skills flexibly is better than having "a system"

So you never use a calculator, you walk everywhere and get your news by contacting the reporter directly by pigeon carrier? What a bizarre way of living... you literally use a system for everything in climbing. Fine, you don't like thus particular system but don't pretend it doesn't have good uses, that clearly and demonstrably false. I don't use mine all the time, but when I do it is useful...

1
 jwi 05 Apr 2023
In reply to bpmclimb:

OK, a general reply. I usually bring a personal 120 cm, two personal locking biners and a Petzl Connect Adjust. Here is what I do. I get to the belay and discover that

a) The belay is already connected for ease of rappel.

1. I clip in with my Petzl Adjust to the lowest point, adjust the length, scream ‘off belay’, and

2. install the reverso on the highest point, pull in rope, clip the ropes to the reverso.

Time taken ≈ 20-80 s. depending on much rope I have to take in. The seconds can clip in to the chain where ever they want when they come up. Knowing that if it took longer than 2 min., I would have failed the French guiding exams.

b) The belay is not  already connected. Two bolts, probably fairly close to each other. Both bolts absolutely bomber.

1. Clip a draw in the higher bolt/the one the leader wants to clip before reaching the first bolt on the next pitch.

2. Clip the rope to this, the drag is usually enough to keep my balanced on the footholds for the belay, otherwise (rarely) do a clove hitch.

3. Install a 120 cm sling. One end on the top of the aforementioned quick draw, the other in a loose biner on the other bolt. Make a sliding x and put a master carabiner in this.

4. Clip in to the master carabiner with my Petzl Adjust to this, adjust the length, scream ‘off belay’, and

5. install the reverso on one of the bolts (into the carabiner already in the bolt), pull in rope, clip the ropes to the reverso. Unclip/untie the lead rope from the quick draw installed in step 2.

Time taken ≈ 40-120 s. depending on if I have to do a clove hitch and how much rope I have to take in. The seconds should clip in to the master carabiner, or wherever they want if they are leading next pitch. If the pitch was short or I did anything slowly and clumsily I might have now failed the French guiding exams.

Case a) and b) cover like 90% of bolted multipitch on limestone around the Mediterranean. But...

c) The bolts on the belay are not connected and absolutely miles apart due to bad rock, but we are swinging leads: Make a belay like it was 1987 and use a clove hitches in a locker in the upper bolt, put a loop in the rope to install the reverso if the top bolt cannot be reached from the belay stance. Nightmare, I will not have pulled up rope and be ready to belay within 2 min unless I am somehow lucky.

d) One of the bolts is shit, the other is a 12 mm or glue in: ... etc etc...

Post edited at 12:06
 C Witter 10 Apr 2023
In reply to beardy mike:

No... I do use a calculator... but I don't decide the answer in advance of encountering the problem to solve. Of course, I do see your point: it's good to have a repertoire with various options "on hand". And, yep, some sort of tether might be part of that, especially if there will be lots of bolts, a single rope, and a lot of down as well as up.

All best.

 beardy mike 11 Apr 2023
In reply to C Witter:

OK, so what you are now saying is you carry a calculator in your pocket incase you encounter a mathematical equation which you can't solve with mental math, but that you're not going out on a limb and saying that a calculator is one of the pieces of equipment which you could use to augment your pre-existing skills to solve that problem, that you would wait until you encounter the problem before you thought about how you would go about solving it and that anybody who thinks in advance about what sort of equipment they could use to solve a math problem is "overthinking" and that they should first try to purely solve the problem with their own skill, without asking anybody else how they solve it. Do you not see how ridiculous you coming on a forum where people are constantly exchanging ideas and information about how they can do things differently, learning from one another and then stamping your feet,to tell everybody they should stop thinking and learning is?

All the best.

 C Witter 11 Apr 2023
In reply to beardy mike:

Ha... ah dear... I can see I've annoyed you in the course of having a different opinion... Did you know that the word "ridiculous" is derived etymologically from the verb "to laugh" (e.g. ridere)? I'm laughing at the ridiculousness of us  continuing to argue over something so esoteric, nerdy and... unimportant. Buona giornata!

 beardy mike 11 Apr 2023
In reply to C Witter:

Not annoyed, just questioning your fairly dismissive reasoning which seems illogical to me. On further questioning it doesn't appear you have any further reason than you dislike them... and that's fine, just don't tell other people to not "overthink" things. Navel gazing is their prerogative...  It's how sometimes good new systems are created which we can all benefit from.

Post edited at 12:13
1

I've lost count of the number of times both my sling and Metolius PAS are the wrong length to clip in comfortably and remain under tension whilst cleaning sport routes (nb may be added faff as bolts often aren't at a nice reach from the comfortable rest point if you're 5'3"). Am definitely considering moving to something more easily adjustable for future sport.

I've made it work with a sling but it's very hard to avoid taking it off tension or having to faff around knotting it. I agree the PAS doesn't actually provide that much flexibility and is annoying bulk round your waist if it's longer than you are wide! 


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