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Kilnsey Corona

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 Duppyup 21 Jun 2020

Had a  bit of discussion at Kilnsey yesterday and want to know what I should have done.

It was a busy day, so was looking for a route to do. Found a 2 star route that looked good. Someone had clipsticked the first bolt, left a rope in and had gone off without climbing it. I asked who’s rope it was, and got told it was a guy who was belaying on another route, his partner was dogging up the route and was only at the first bolt so they were going to take a while. I asked him if I could pull the rope and that I planned to just quickly go up and down the route and would be done by the time he was belaying. He said no as he didn’t want me touching the holds on a route he wanted to do, due to corona, so he had essentially closed off the route to anyone else for the rest of the day. I decided just to leave it and move onto another route after some discussion. But was a bit pissed off, are you allowed to put a quickdraw in the first bolt of a route then not let anyone else on the route? Seems like getting down early to the pool and leaving a towel on you sunlounger to come back to later.

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 dunnyg 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Duppyup:

Seems unreasonable.

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 snoop6060 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Duppyup:

That's rediculous. If he wants to climb routes nobody has touched what on earth is he doing at kilnsey at the weekend in summer. 

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 Luke90 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Duppyup:

Yeah, if someone's that paranoid about sharing holds then I think the reasonable thing for them to do is to take that burden on themselves and adapt their own behaviour, not expect others to take the hit.

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In reply to Duppyup:

Bloke sounds like a Bell End. Sport climbing does tend to need a bit of 'give & take' with these things, sharing quickdraws and stuff but hogging routes isn't on.

Thing is you could have pulled his rope and swapped the draw for one of yours but then it leaves you feeling mardy for the rest of the day which no one wants. I'd have probably done the same as you, just gone to another route and try and accept that some people are just dicks 😉

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 peppermill 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Duppyup:

Sure he's allowed to there's nothing to say he can't.

However taking your description at face value it's properly c*nty behaviour and if he's that bothered about other people touching the holds probably should stay at home!

Post edited at 10:27
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 Stuart William 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Duppyup:

Sounds like an utter prat. If they’re that worried about touching something that someone else has touched then I’d suggest they stay home, or at least stick to routes and crags that no one else wants to climb anyway. 

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In reply to Duppyup:

So once he's actually done the climb he walks away and potentially lets someone else get contaminated by him in a way he is unwilling to accept himself.  Completely selfish thinking. 

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 DaveHK 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Duppyup:

This kind of shit happened even before Covid-19. I wonder if the pandemic has just provided a ready excuse for the kind of walloper who's always behaved like that.

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 snoop6060 21 Jun 2020
In reply to deacondeacon:

When I read these things on here I always laugh to myself and think I hope I'm at the crag the day when someone tries to pull that on Triple H (Andy). It just makes me laugh now thinking about how that plays out.  Kinda like the time an old fella I used to climb with (who was absolutely bananas) was told by some guy at stanage he wasn't allowed to top rope a route as he wanted to lead it, and the BMC says leaders should take priority even tho he had already rigged the top rope.  I was like oh f*ck mate what have you just done! He got torn another one right in front of about 30 people. Go call the f***ing BMC you little c*** he was screaming from the top of stanage before running to the bottom to continue the onslaught. The lad didn't say a single other word. Was intense. But still makes me laugh to this day. 

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 Naomi Buys 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Duppyup:

This is a really awkward situation. I'm sure the climber in question has good motives for wanting to be super strict on virus non transmission, but.... 

In this instance, you were OK to pick another route to try. But what if that had been your long-term project and you had specifically gone to try that particular route? I doubt you'd have been happy to just find another route to do. 

Also, there's so little difference between climbing a route after someone else has just finished on it, compared with swapping goes, in terms of virus transmission surely? 

Lastly, someone who is vulnerable needs to accept that they can't successfully isolate themselves at Kilnsey. You can't have your cake and eat it! 

I feel sorry for you in this situation, pretty sure I would have been very upset in your shoes. 

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In reply to snoop6060:

Haha, exactly!!  To be honest, I think most people I climb with wouldn't have even asked him. Just pulled the rope, clipped his draw and climbed the route. 

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 peppermill 21 Jun 2020
In reply to deacondeacon:

Yeah kind just sounds like whoever he was belaying was almost done and he was wanting to jump straight on ASAP. 

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 ali k 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Duppyup:

Hi Duppyup. That was me. I'm sorry you were pissed off - as is usually the case there's two sides to it and it left me feeling the same. When we arrived at the crag I clipsticked the first bolt as I was intending to get straight on the route (Puppeteer - not the route you wanted to do), as my partner hadn't decided what to do. The start that you're talking about - which shares the lines of the 8a, an 8a+ finish and the '7c' (Sabbath's Theatre) that you wanted to do isn't actually the start of the 7c (despite what the Rockfax guide says). Have a look at the logbook. If we'd chatted longer I would have explained that but I was trying to get an idea of what you were aiming to do so I could make a decision but was also belaying at the time. I chose my route as it's not a popular one (it rarely gets climbed - I had to clean the dust and cobwebs from it the other day) and thought the chances of anyone wanting to get on it that day were slim. And as I say the 7c route you wanted to do doesn't start there anyway. My partner then decided she wanted to get on Ground Effect, as it was free. Given that I thought it very unlikely anyone would want to get on either of the routes that share that start, and as Ground Effect is more popular I decided to belay my partner first and then come back to it. It wasn't my intention just to hog the route all day.

When you came over to me I was trying to get an idea of how important it was for you to get on that particular route. If we had the same route in mind for the day then I would have been happy to lower my partner down and take the clip out and go somewhere else. As others have intimated, I don't take pleasure from ruining other people's days. But it seemed like you just wanted to get on anything that was free as a warm up and then move on, and you initially said if I wasn't happy about you getting on it just say no and that would be fine. So I was trying to indicate that I'd rather you didn't, because that had been my aim for the day and for the sake of you just getting on anything as a warm up, especially as the route you thought you were getting on doesn't start there, I thought it was ok just to try and put that across in a gentle way. But you then kept pushing and pushing, which got my back up a bit. With hindsight I probably should have just lowered my partner down and stripped the draw and left you to get on with it.

Anyway, I hate these confrontations at the crag. I understand we all want to climb again and there needs to be give and take. I'm being more careful than most people are from what I've seen out and about, but I don't want to ruin people's day because of that. The crag yesterday felt like business as usual had returned - large groups mingling, swapping partners, sharing lifts etc. I'm unlikely to go there again, especially at a weekend but I wasn't expecting it to be that busy. I hope the rest of your day was ok, and sorry for pissing you off.

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 Naomi Buys 21 Jun 2020
In reply to ali k:

Good to hear your side of the story Ali. I agree that we shouldn't all be returning to business as usual. It's all too easy to be complacent and drift into old habits. Keeping good hand hygiene, not sharing ropes etc should be the new normal. However, it would be a logistical nightmare (not to mention relationship straining) to have a 'one climber per route' rule, common sense dictates that the safest possible workarounds are sought. I hope you have a great sport season and manage to find a way of balancing everything at this crazy time! 

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 ali k 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Naomi Buys:

Hi Nao

This is the first occasion that it's really been a consideration, and maybe because of that I assumed everyone was of the same mindset still. And also because Duppyup was quite casual initially about it being fine just to say no. I understand that's probably not the case, and agree with finding a middle ground. I was slightly dismayed yesterday at how much it felt like business as usual though. The 'new normal' looks a lot like the old one.

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 gravy 21 Jun 2020
In reply to ali k:

However, this isn't a Benidorm swimming pool and you can't go around "reserving" climbs by throwing your towels down. 

Basically you're climbing or your not. 

In this case you weren't climbing it and you should simply have apologised for clagging the crag up with your gear and let them crack on.

Caveats: let's not have anyone taking the piss with arguments about being "just about to climb" - if you're likely not to be on it for long enough for someone else to climb it then you're not climbing. If it turns out they're slower than they should be, you just have to suck it up - just because you put a clip in and walked away doesn't mean you were there first.

Overall if even one is nice then it's usually easy to find a reasonable compromise if you start from the premise "reserving routes" is a wee bit antisocial (and if you want to play the C19 card then reserving routes is very antisocial).

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 DaveHK 21 Jun 2020
In reply to ali k:

As someone looking in on this from the outside the interesting bit and the bit your explanation doesn't seem to mention is that the OP says the reason you gave for saying no was fear of infection.

Post edited at 12:46
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In reply to Duppyup:

No, it isn't reasonable or appropriate to reserve routes in any context.  If the other climber wanted to do it, they should have done it immediately.

Post edited at 12:55
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 Al Randall 21 Jun 2020
In reply to ali k:

You are sorry he was pissed off.  That's quite telling.  Do you think your behaviour was reasonable or not, that is the real question?  Do you consider "reserving" routes in this manner reasonable behaviour? Would you do it again considering the amount of disapproval of your actions shown on UKC?

Al

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 ali k 21 Jun 2020

In terms of comparing this to claiming sunloungers - I've tried to explain why the first bolt was clipped on this occasion. But I can see why people see it that way.

In general there seems to be a divide between those who are happy just to carry on as before (e.g. sharing ropes, routes, quickdraws, swapping partners, sharing lifts to the crag etc), and those who are trying to be careful to avoid all those things. I don't think that's limited just to climbing. I fall into the latter category, but I understand I'm probably in the minority now and I'm not casting aspersions on people who feel differently. It's hard when people with those different mindsets come into contact.

Just to give an example - a few people on here have said "I'd just pull the rope down and climb it anyway". And before Covid I'd probably agree. But if you're one of those people still trying to avoid sharing ropes, routes, quickdraws - to get the rope and quickdraw down from the first bolt you'd have to lower partner, untie, put shoes on, go over, tie in, pull up the rope, put some fingertape round to open the carabiner, lower back down, then use clipstick to take out the quickdraw. I'm not saying I wouldn't be willing to do it, and I can see why people in the other category might think that's being over-cautious. Just that it's a completely different mindset from the people who think there's no risk of transmission by pulling another person's rope down. Likewise sharing lifts to the crag, swapping partners or alternating goes on a route. So when Duppyup casually said it was fine to say no if I wasn't comfortable with it, or something along those lines, I asked if there was anything else he could warm up on. As I've said, I'm not casting aspersions, and I've apologised to Duppyup. And I accept most people have gone back to business as usual, so I'll adapt my choice of crags based on that.

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 Al Randall 21 Jun 2020
In reply to ali k:

Not really. Saying you were sorry he was pissed off is not accepting responsibility for your behaviour.  If you are that concerned about catching the virus I suggest you stay at home. You are getting most of the flack for "reserving" a route not because you were concerned about catching the virus.  COVID is a bit of a red herring.

Al

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In reply to ali k:

Hi Ali, I was the one who stated "I'd just pull it down and climb it anyway".

If you're trying to avoid sharing quickdraws etc perhaps you should be climbing somewhere quieter  than Kilnsey and leaving draws in. 

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 Andy Hardy 21 Jun 2020
In reply to ali k:

Surely it would have been possible to take your rope and quickdraw using a clipstick? 

It's what I would have done, because "reserving" a route is unacceptable.

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 ali k 21 Jun 2020

Well if anyone knows him please pass on my apologies.

Post edited at 13:52
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 AJM 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Al Randall:

By "reserving a route" do you mean whacking a draw and rope into it and then going elsewhere, or then asking the other guy not to climb it?

- the former is reasonably common practice isn't it? Its been years since I've been sport climbing in Yorkshire but I can remember days at Malham with topropes hanging down things all day and where starts are undercut or steep then leaving the rope in the first draw between goes would hardly be uncommon either. I've certainly been to the crag before when I or my partner have specifically wanted to get their draws into a route rather than use someone elses because sometimes for a project you would want them set up just so and the person who gets to do that is usually the one who gets the draws in first. Pre covid, sharing draws was a no brainer. I have to confess the whole thing with hanging ropes was a bit of a pain especially if the rope owners needed the rope back up because they were at the "early" stage of a long term project and it's never been something I do, but others clearly do. But it happens, and has been doing so for years. At a crag where lots of people project, and so want kit in routes all day, it's inevitable that there's faff around the placing and sharing of kit.

- the second is just misaligned expectations isn't it? The person who is further down the "business as usual" end of the spectrum thinks it's odd to say no, the person who is at the more cautious end of the spectrum thinks it's odd to ask. I suspect the perspective of the outsider probably depends on where they themselves are on that spectrum. 

Personally I wouldn't mind sharing holds with someone, but I'm trying to be reasonably cautious still so I don't find it ridiculous that someone else might want to do that and I wouldn't make a particular fuss if they did. Now maybe with hindsight Kilnsey at a weekend isn't the best place to do that, but if you haven't yet realised you're in a different place to a lot of others then its understandable that you only find out when you get there. It's a shame that two people have probably left the day with a slightly sour taste in their mouths, but I'm surprised at the number of people getting their pitchforks out over it...

Edit: 

I just looked at the BMC guidance, which says:

> Think about equipment: do everything you can to minimise sharing. For sport climbing, each climber taking their own quickdraws and rope and stripping the route after each ascent, will enable both partners to avoid sharing equipment. 

The most literal interpretation of that effectively rules out serious projecting, since you would have to dog the route to place the draws before each redpoint burn. If people do want to project routes, which I assume is already the case at Kilnsey since I would assume many locals have run out of things to onsight (!), the interpretation that feels to me most within the spirit of that guidance is for only one climber to project a route on a given day.

I don't know. You can say the first black mark is leaving any kit in, or you can assume that people are going to be leaving kit in routes in which case the safest thing according to the guidance would probably be not to use it and get on something else. With the whole "avoiding using other people's quickdraws feels impractical" argument that I thought I saw mentioned above, it's interesting that the guidance does recommend people do exactly that.

Post edited at 14:15
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 Al Randall 21 Jun 2020
In reply to AJM:

Reserving a route to me means putting gear in it in order to prevent anyone else climbing it before the person who put the gear in is ready and that person walking away from the base of the route.

The worst case I have experienced was at Tintern Quarry. A route I wanted to do was "geared up" and a rope left in place. This was about 10am. I asked the party in question if I could climb the route.  One person said no he was about to go on it.  His partner seemed a little embarrassed. At 5pm the rope and gear were still in place and no one climbed that route that day. I'm not sure how anyone cannot consider this to be anything other than selfish, thoughtless and inconsiderate behavior that in extreme cases could lead to violence.

I have also experienced situations where the parties have said yes, please go ahead and use our gear.  This is better but still I think, why should I be put into the position of having to ask permission.

I must admit it is one of my pet hates about the current climbing scene so apologies if my biased outrage comes across.

Al

Post edited at 14:17
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In reply to ali k:

> Just to give an example - a few people on here have said "I'd just pull the rope down and climb it anyway". And before Covid I'd probably agree. But if you're one of those people still trying to avoid sharing ropes, routes, quickdraws...

Well, to be honest if you're still of that mindset, which is fine, maybe Kilnsey on a weekend was not the best choice.

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 AJM 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Al Randall:

Pre covid, the situation you describe is clearly very antisocial. The whole Kalymnos "no, after I'm finished my friends [points at large multi family group] are going to climb" thing is the nearest equivalent I've experienced I think.

Post-covid, it seems that it is still antisocial - but maybe less impossible to imagine it could have become a new normal, if the group consensus had been that projecting is an understandable thing (likely at crags where a lot of people typically work routes extensively) but sharing equipment not so.

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In reply to Duppyup:

In your shoes I would have told him to stop being a moron and I would have pulled his rope. What a complete arsehole.

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 ali k 21 Jun 2020
In reply to planetmarshall:

I agree, and have admitted as much. It’s been pretty quiet on the whole though, until yesterday. And I specifically chose a route which very rarely gets climbed (needed a fair bit of cleaning) to minimise the likelihood of anyone else wanting to get on it.

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 mrphilipoldham 21 Jun 2020
In reply to ali k:

No, you fall in to the former category. I’ve never even been to Kilnsey and I know that if I was wanting to be careful with Covid that I most certainly wouldn’t be going there on a summer weekend. If you didn’t think it’d be busy, you didn’t think hard enough.

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In reply to DaveHK:

Yes, I wondered this aswell.

If you start stealing waves from surfers then you may find your windscreen waxed or your wing mirrors in a hedge by the time you get out of the water.

I like to think climbers are a bit kinder to one another. 

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 r0x0r.wolfo 21 Jun 2020
In reply to ali k:

Wait - so you're worried about contracting coronavirus so much so that you don't want to climb a route someone else has climbed, but you decided to drop everything you were doing so your partner could jump on a more popular route? Because it had just become free...

Sounds less like you're wary of coronavirus and more like you were looking convenient excuse to make sure that you didn't need to wait for a climb...

P.S If "Sorry you were pissed off" is your idea of an apology I can only imagine the distain you would have towards someone interrupting you to ask if they can climb the route you just reserved. 

Post edited at 16:34
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 ali k 21 Jun 2020
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

When did I say it had just become free? There are a lot of people misrepresenting what happened or my intentions in order to have a go at me. Even people who say they’ve never even been to this crag. I’ve apologised to the OP and admitted that Kilnsey was a poor choice, but up until yesterday I’d been climbing there and other sport crags numerous times and always managed to do it following the BMC guidelines in terms of not sharing equipment or lifts etc. And stayed well clear of people.  I’ve chosen routes that mostly haven’t been climbed this year and as far as I know never on the same day. Ground Effect hadn’t been climbed that day unless someone was there very early. I’ve done as much as I can to stay reasonably safe. I regret what happened yesterday and wish I’d just stripped the rope out in the first place, before belaying my partner, but I honestly didn’t think it was a consideration given which routes share that start. I’ve never seen anyone climbing those routes before. If I’d stick clipped Comedy or Dominatrix and walked off then I could understand people’s anger. And as I’ve said the logistics of getting my quickdraw and rope out without someone else touching it in order for him to climb it while I was in the middle of belaying my partner was also a factor. I don’t know what else to say.

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 Al Randall 21 Jun 2020
In reply to ali k:

Well you could start by offering a proper apology for selfishly denying someone else the chance to climb a route whilst you were on another and for spurious reasons. Sorry you were pissed off isn't really an apology at all and worthy, not to mention typical, of a politicians response. You could then go on to describe what you would deem to be acceptable or unacceptable behaviour and perhaps answer the questions that were put to you directly in that regard. assuming that is that you genuinely want to move on from this. I don't really care, as really this is between you and the victim of your actions.

Al

Post edited at 17:03
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 ali k 21 Jun 2020
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

If you read down to the bottom of that post I said “I hope the rest of your day was ok, and sorry for pissing you off”.

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 Neil Foster Global Crag Moderator UKH Supporter 21 Jun 2020
In reply to the majority posting on this thread:

I've climbed loads at Kilnsey in the past, and used to really enjoy the place.  But I've not been for a few years, and my how things seem to have changed in the meantime...

If all those getting on their high horses on this thread deploy those horses at the crag, the tricky undercut starts must have been all but eliminated!

I know UKC attracts keyboard warriors but blimey, just stop and think for one moment before posting such vitriol.

Yours, trying to live and let live in these crazy times.

Neil

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 henwardian 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Duppyup:

+1 for "ridiculous".

It's a busy crag, he has no idea whether someone climbed it before he even arrived, the virus can survive for more than 1 day or rock anyway, lots of other reasons.

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 J Whittaker 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Duppyup:

Should have pulled his rope and told him to get fecked.

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 r0x0r.wolfo 21 Jun 2020
In reply to ali k:

> If you read down to the bottom of that post I said “I hope the rest of your day was ok, and sorry for pissing you off”

I see where you're coming from, it's a minor breach of crag ettiquette. I always feel a little bit sorry in these cases because the nature of online forums is that if everyone feels that someone have done something which is obviously a little off then it can be that you have dozens of people saying that you were wrong and it can feel a little disproportionate.

That being said apologising for the impact on someone's feelings has always felt like a complete cop-out to me as it doesn't really acknowledge that most people would have been a bit annoyed if you'd left your rope on something they wanted to try and then denied their request (which in my opinion was purely out a curtesy, many will have just pulled it down) to climb the route.

Post edited at 18:38
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 DaveHK 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Neil Foster:

> I know UKC attracts keyboard warriors but blimey, just stop and think for one moment before posting such vitriol.

I don't think this thread has many keyboard warriors.  Quite the opposite in fact, I think that most people posting have a pretty good grasp on crag etiquette and that their response in person probably wouldn't have been that different from their online response.

The difference is that at the crag it would have been a one on one discussion but on web forums it can quickly become many on one.

So bearing that in mind and given that plenty of folks have already expressed their disapproval of ali k's actions maybe it's time to lay off.

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 salad fingers 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Duppyup:

So, of all the routes at the crag you had to pick that one that was occupied (although, as Ali has explained, your route was actually free) after which you found another route to do, anyway! I'm not sure why you're having such a big grumble. It's pretty standard to turn up at the crag and have your route occupied in one way or another.

It seems to me like you asked a question and didn't like the answer, despite saying that you were fine accepting no for an answer - clearly you weren't since you've started a flippin thread about it.

I think Ali's given a good explanation of his actions in light of the current restrictions and the situation at the crag, a situation clearly more nuanced than the OP (from whom we've heard nothing) had made it seem. It's a tricky time and we're all still trying to figure out what works. Expectations are obviously not aligned across the climbing community. 

And FWIW, I can think of loads of situations where I might set up my rope into the first one or two bolts but not get on it straight away, and none are to do with reserving the route. 

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 Will Hunt 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Duppyup:

I had a few sessions on Sunset Boulevard this season. This was my first time working a popular route at a popular crag with any sort of conviction. It taught me a very valuable lesson: other climbers who want to get on the route you're trying are the enemy and must be vanquished at all costs.

I'm planning on keeping a little folder of photos of all the most popular crags when they're gopping wet. Then I can just post the relevant photo up on the conditions Facebook page while I have my morning char. Problem solved.

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 Wft 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Will Hunt:

The cornice is bone dry, you should come over 

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 Al Randall 21 Jun 2020
In reply to salad fingers:

> And FWIW, I can think of loads of situations where I might set up my rope in.  It's opinions/to the first one or two bolts but not get on it straight away, and none are to do with reserving the route. 

Loads? Perhaps you could explain a little further, I am interested to know what they might be. Who knows you may change my mind about this practice. Not that I think any are valid in this specific case.

I don't think anyone is ganging up maliciously. It's simply climbers opinions and a healthy debate about what many feel to be selfish and inconsiderate behaviour compounded by a failure, so far, to offer a genuine apology. The justification around COVID fears smacks a little of Cummings excuse for breaking the lock down i.e. unconvincing.

Al

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 dunnyg 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Will Hunt:

What would action man do?

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 AJM 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Al Randall:

The fact you keep quoting the start of his post - "sorry you were pissed off" - still doesn't change the fact that at the end of his post he also said "sorry for pissing you off".

He pointed this out a few posts above, but charitably I'm going to assume you didn't notice this rather than that you're continually selectively quoting him.....

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 Michael Gordon 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Neil Foster:

Yes, a lot of high horses on this thread. The guy has come on and apologised, end of story.

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 Si dH 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Duppyup:

This sounds to me like an unfortunate situation whereby two people didn't communicate that well and had different perspectives, so fell out a bit.

I can understand you being a bit pissed off that a rope was up where you wanted to climb. I've been annoyed by this in the past. In the situation you described and if it was a popular route, I think Ali's behaviour would have been unreasonable.

However Ali has given a pretty reasonable account of his actions and it seems he had actively tried to minimise the likelihood of being on a route that someone else wanted to do. I can't really fault him. It's a shame you didn't realise that it wasn't the right first bolt for your route.

I do think everyone needs to display a respectful attitude to the risks of Covid transmission and how others want to deal with them, even if not everyone has the same level of concern. It's a shame that respect isn't displayed by everyone on this thread.

Si

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 jon 21 Jun 2020
In reply to ali k:

> that was me. Sorry you were pissed off...

Well said Ali, an excellent balanced post.

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 Blunderbuss 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Duppyup:

The Covid contamination excuse for 'reserving' the route is wonderful.... 

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 Al Randall 21 Jun 2020
In reply to AJM:

I hadn't noticed that or it didn't register because essentially "Sorry you were pissed off"  and " Sorry for pissing you off" are essentially the same. But that's a side issue between the two individuals involved. But I do feel quite strongly about "reserving" routes and in that regard I will stay on my high horse because it's a climbing/ethics issue and worthy of debate.

Al

Post edited at 20:13
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 AJM 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Al Randall:

If “sorry you were pissed off” - fundamentally passive, “It saddens me that you are unhappy” - and “sorry for pissing you off” - active ownership of the action causing the sadness, “I am sad that my actions have made you unhappy” are the same thing to you then you live in a strange grammatical world.

I’d rather hoped that you’d have been big enough to acknowledge your error when it was pointed out to you, rather than resorting to that sort of tenuous nonsense. But hey ho. 

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 Al Randall 21 Jun 2020
In reply to AJM:

You may have a point.  I'm sorry that you did not appreciate my explanation. Do you not think that's a cop out apology though rather than "you are right I was wrong, sorry" ? For me there is a distinction.  The former is an insincere  non apology and drafted with that in mind.  The latter is an unreserved apology.  Which one would you prefer to accept? or reject

Al

Post edited at 20:32
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 gazhbo 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Al Randall:

I don't really care, as really this is between you and the victim of your actions.

Victim?!

Post edited at 20:20
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 Al Randall 21 Jun 2020
In reply to gazhbo:

Well yes.  They didn't get to do the route they wanted to do.  I'll concede victims is a bit strong I should have settled for between the two parties.

Al

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 gazhbo 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Al Randall:

Well in that case can you please apologise for your ridiculous hyperbolic use of the word victim?

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 Al Randall 21 Jun 2020
In reply to gazhbo:

I'm sorry that you did not like my use of hyperbole.

Al

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 brianjcooper 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Duppyup:

Many years ago I had a similar situation. TRAD. Ropes dangling down two routes, we had been waiting for some time to be free, with no one about until I walked towards them. " Can't you see our ropes" said a climber sitting in a group eating their lunch.

I just 'pulled' one of the ropes and proceeded to climb a route. "You don't f..king own the crag and you're not currently climbing any of them" I said.

It's really sad that some climbers don't seem to learn crag etiquette  

Post edited at 21:12
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 aksys 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Si dH:

> This sounds to me like an unfortunate situation whereby two people didn't communicate that well and had different perspectives, so fell out a bit.

> I can understand you being a bit pissed off that a rope was up where you wanted to climb. I've been annoyed by this in the past. In the situation you described and if it was a popular route, I think Ali's behaviour would have been unreasonable.

> However Ali has given a pretty reasonable account of his actions and it seems he had actively tried to minimise the likelihood of being on a route that someone else wanted to do. I can't really fault him. It's a shame you didn't realise that it wasn't the right first bolt for your route.

> I do think everyone needs to display a respectful attitude to the risks of Covid transmission and how others want to deal with them, even if not everyone has the same level of concern. It's a shame that respect isn't displayed by everyone on this thread.

> Si

“ I do think everyone needs to display a respectful attitude to the risks of Covid transmission and how others want to deal with them, even if not everyone has the same level of concern. It's a shame that respect isn't displayed by everyone on this thread.”

Yes, thank you for saying this. 

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 Si dH 21 Jun 2020
In reply to brianjcooper:

> Many years ago I had a similar situation. TRAD. Ropes dangling down two routes, we had been waiting for some time to be free, with no one about until I walked towards them. " Can't you see our ropes" said a climber sitting in a group eating their lunch.

> I just 'pulled' one of the ropes and proceeded to climb a route. "You don't f..king own the crag and you're not currently climbing any of them" I said.

> It's really sad that some climbers don't seem to learn crag etiquette  

What relevance has any of that got to this situation? The ethics at a trad crag are completely different to a sport crag where most people are projecting something and leaving ropes up is relatively common. Using expletives to emphasise the point you are trying to make just makes your post more objectionable.

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 Adam Lincoln 21 Jun 2020

For gods sake. What a mountain out of a mole hill. 

You all keep saying Ali shouldn’t be climbing at Kilnsey on a busy weekend. The crag has not been as busy as this weekend in a while so he wasn’t to know. I know he has been climbing at some of the less popular crags as i have seen him there. I feel for him as ive seen him struggling at the likes of Yew Cogar to distance himself from others. He  no doubt chose Yew Cogar as its normally quiet but the hoards there have driven him to Kilnsey where he no doubt thought he could spread himself out away from others which is a fair assumption.

just because the majority of people are now almost back to normal that doesnt mean everyone has to be. I am sure Ali has his reasons and thats his prerogative.

I dont see a problem with him setting up his rope ready on a normally very quiet route. Where is everyones community spirit? 


 

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 Steve Crowe 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Duppyup:

Karin and I climbed all the routes on that wall right of Balas (and including Balas) two years ago and rarely had to share any route.

If Ali K’s rope was in the first clip of  Puppeteer then it wasn’t in the 7c Sabbath’s Theater.

”Sabbath’s Theater starts up Balas placing wires. Crosses Puppeteer ( at it’s 4th bolt) and Dark Stranger to reach the bolt at the top of Relax...”
 

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 r0x0r.wolfo 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Adam Lincoln:

> For gods sake. What a mountain out of a mole hill. 

> You all keep saying Ali shouldn’t be climbing at Kilnsey on a busy weekend. The crag has not been as busy as this weekend in a while so he wasn’t to know. I know he has been climbing at some of the less popular crags as i have seen him there. I feel for him as ive seen him struggling at the likes of Yew Cogar to distance himself from others. He  no doubt chose Yew Cogar as its normally quiet but the hoards there have driven him to Kilnsey where he no doubt thought he could spread himself out away from others which is a fair assumption.

> just because the majority of people are now almost back to normal that doesnt mean everyone has to be. I am sure Ali has his reasons and thats his prerogative.

> I dont see a problem with him setting up his rope ready on a normally very quiet route. Where is everyones community spirit? 

Apart from the incident that started the thread, no one's telling anyone where they can and cannot climb. People are just pointing to the faulty logic of annoucing that you're doing your bit to stop the spread of coronavirus whilst turning up to a busy crag for a bit of climbing. It's like turning up to a party whilst shouting at everyone to stay 2 meters away.

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In reply to Will Hunt:

This made me laugh a lot! 

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 Cobra_Head 22 Jun 2020
In reply to ali k:

> tie in, pull up the rope, put some fingertape round to open the carabiner, lower back down, then use clipstick to take out the quickdraw.

Maybe you do this before you move away from the route to do another?

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In reply to ali k:

To be fair, if you go to Kilnsey on a weekend when it’s presumably too hot for Malham, it’s reasonable to expect it to be pretty busy. There are less popular crags to choose from if you want routes all to yourself for whatever reason.

I agree about needing to respect social distancing and some people are doing it more strictly than others.  Most people seem to be somewhere in the middle ground. Personally I think the risk of transmission via holds is pretty small but if you’re really concerned about it, perhaps it’s best to choose an out of the way crag. Besides, are you going to leave a note on the first bolt saying ‘I climbed this on X date’, to warn others?

At the end of the day, crag etiquette is not to ‘reserve’ routes. Having said that, the other person was sensible and just went to do something else so no harm done on that occasion.

Hats off for responding to the OP though. You didn’t have to do that but being open and honest about things counts for a lot. Many people wouldn’t have the fortitude to put their hand up in the knowledge that they would get a load of abuse (which is totally uncalled for).

This Covid stuff seems to be creating a few micro conflicts like that (first in real life and then online). For the sake of our sanity and community spirit (if there is such a thing), I hope it doesn’t hang around forever...

Post edited at 01:58
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 brianjcooper 22 Jun 2020
In reply to Si dH:

> Many years ago I had a similar situation. TRAD. Ropes dangling down two routes, we had been waiting for some time to be free, with no one about until I walked towards them. " Can't you see our ropes" said a climber sitting in a group eating their lunch.

> I just 'pulled' one of the ropes and proceeded to climb a route. "You don't f..king own the crag and you're not currently climbing any of them" I said.

> It's really sad that some climbers don't seem to learn crag etiquette  

>What relevance has any of that got to this situation? The ethics at a trad crag are completely different to a sport crag where most people are projecting something and leaving ropes up is relatively common. Using expletives to emphasise the point you are trying to make just makes your post more objectionable.

These days I'm far more eloquent. Surely, in Trad or Sport, unless you are 'working' a new line, you can't 'book' an existing climb and then disappear and expect everyone else to wait until you decide to return.  Or has etiquette changed over the years too?

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 Si dH 22 Jun 2020
In reply to brianjcooper:

> >What relevance has any of that got to this situation? The ethics at a trad crag are completely different to a sport crag where most people are projecting something and leaving ropes up is relatively common. Using expletives to emphasise the point you are trying to make just makes your post more objectionable.

> These days I'm far more eloquent. Surely, in Trad or Sport, unless you are 'working' a new line, you can't 'book' an existing climb and then disappear and expect everyone else to wait until you decide to return.  Or has etiquette changed over the years too?

At harder sport crags where many people spend all day on the same route, it's normal to leave draws in all day and it's very common to leave a rope in the first 1-2 draws if the route has a hard start. There is nothing wrong in that. Normally, if someone asked you to move the rope you would do. However, it isn't always clear cut in the way it is with trad. When someone is redpointing a route at their limit, having the right amount of rest is crucial so if someone else were to come along and ask someone to move their rope 5 minutes before they were ready to go, then start dogging the route for half an hour, that would be really bad form in my view. These things need sensible discussions, there is no one size fits all answer. Generally sharing routes is a PITA anyway because with the variation in time it takes for people and their partners (on a different route) to all have their goes, it inevitably ends up with some people waiting around a lot. Personally, if I arrive at a sport crag and someone else is on the route I want to do (or just has a rope in it and therefore obviously has that intent) then if it is not a long term project, I will always get on something else instead. 

When you add in the Covid situation then not wanting to share a route seems perfectly reasonable to me. It's better for everyone in reality unless the route is everyone's dream tick/long term project.

Ido think that in both sport climbing and bouldering, there needs to be an increased acceptance right now that if you arrive at the crag late, you might not be able to spend several hours on the small bit of rock you had in mind if someone else is already on it.

Post edited at 06:40
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 Ged Desforges 22 Jun 2020
In reply to brianjcooper:.

> I just 'pulled' one of the ropes and proceeded to climb a route. "You don't f..king own the crag and you're not currently climbing any of them" I said.

> It's really sad that some climbers don't seem to learn crag etiquette  

It's really sad that some people don't seem to learn to communicate without resorting to aggressive, abusive language.

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 Ged Desforges 22 Jun 2020
In reply to brianjcooper:

But if you actually read Ali's response, rather than acting like someone in the comments section of the Daily Mail, you'll see that's not what happened. 

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 veteye 22 Jun 2020
In reply to ali k:

No-one, including you has mentioned the idea of cleaning their hands between routes. Does no-one take alcoholic gel to the crag and use it?

So Duppy could have taken your rope down, and then cleaned his hands with gel. Likewise you should clean your hands after doing a route, as you don't know if someone else has climbed it in the last 3 days or so. Therefore Corona virus could be lurking on any hold that you touch, and you contaminate your hands. Then inevitably you touch your face (look at the statistics for that. We all do it many times), and then there is real risk of getting the infection.

So did you have Gel?  Did you clean your hands after every route that you did?

Did you eventually do the route in question?

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In reply to veteye:

Anti bacterial gel isn't so hot at dealing with a virus...

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 Blunderbuss 22 Jun 2020
In reply to bouldery bits:

> Anti bacterial gel isn't so hot at dealing with a virus...

Alcoholic based ones are....

Seriously though it people are that worried about catching something from a hold even after washing their hands with gel perhaps they should be going for a game of golf instead....

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 veteye 22 Jun 2020
In reply to bouldery bits:

As Blunderbuss says....

Otherwise bloody well take some chlorhexidine and water, and do a five minute scrub each time...

Ali K has said that he was considering things w r t which crag to be at, but that is going to get harder to choose a quiet one. It still does not address the contamination of holds in the last few days, prior to your visit.

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 Lankyman 22 Jun 2020
In reply to veteye:

Can't see my screen for the amount of mouth foam being generated on this thread!

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 salad fingers 22 Jun 2020
In reply to Al Randall:

OK, here are some situations:

I stick clip my rope and quickdraw through the first bolt. I start gearing up and realise I’ve left my shoes in the car. I jog back to the car (which at Kilnsey would be a 5-15 min trip) and return with my boots only to find someone has pulled my rope down and is now climbing the route.

I stick clip my rope and quickdraw through the first bolt. I want to have a really good go at onsighting the route, putting in the quickdraws as I climb. However, I realise I need a bit of a warm-up so disappear for 5-10 minutes to do a bit of bouldering or a quick lap on another route. Return to the route to find that some self-righteous pillock has pulled down my rope and is dogging his way up the route.

I stick clip my rope and quickdraw through the first bolt. I try to climb the route but can’t make it to the second bolt so I climb back down (onsight still intact!). I take a short rest, go for a dump in the shrubbery and return to find some monumental doofus has pulled my rope down, removed my quickdraw and is just about to set off. We exchange words and it turns out he just wanted a warm up (because who doesn’t warm up on fingery 7c/8a?!) and couldn’t be bothered to find a free route at the crag.

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 Callum Smith 22 Jun 2020
In reply to Adam Lincoln:

Agreed. Each of us has a level of risk that we're willing to accept. Why can't others be willing to accept this and respect others.

Some on here seem to forget that we are not finished with this virus.

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 DaveHK 22 Jun 2020
In reply to Callum Smith:

> Agreed. Each of us has a level of risk that we're willing to accept. Why can't others be willing to accept this and respect others.

That respect goes both ways though doesn't it? If you feel at higher risk and want to take specific measures then that's fine but it's up to you to take those measures.  You shouldn't shift that burden onto others and expect them to comply or to go along with it if it impacts on them.

Post edited at 10:10
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 Callum Smith 22 Jun 2020
In reply to DaveHK:

Yes agreed, you can't control others, only your own actions.

If the OP was at personal risk, going to Kilnsey seems silly. However perhaps (and I hope), he and others were thinking beyond just themselves and trying to reduce transmission in the population as a whle. Since that is still what we are meant to be doing.

You (general) might not get ill, but someone you could pass it to might.

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 Andy Hardy 22 Jun 2020
In reply to salad fingers:

None of your scenarios involve clipping the first bolt, leaving your rope there and then going to belay someone else on their project though, which is what I would find intensely irritating.

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 Callum Smith 22 Jun 2020
In reply to DaveHK:

To be clear, I don't like it when people leave ropes up. I just wanted to offer an opinion on risk and consideration. 

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 Si dH 22 Jun 2020
In reply to DaveHK:

> That respect goes both ways though doesn't it? If you feel at higher risk and want to take specific measures then that's fine but it's up to you to take those measures.  You shouldn't shift that burden onto others and expect them to comply or to go along with it if it impacts on them.

I don't think the consideration applies equally in both directions. If one party is not bothering to follow the latest social distancing or BMC guidance (I'm not implying that was the case here) then there is in my opinion no obligation on the others' part to respect their point of view.

To take this further, if you are at high risk, then you should have the right to go to a crag and expect other climbers to follow the guidance, not routinely break it and therefore prevent you from being able to safely climb at all.

Post edited at 10:46
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 r0x0r.wolfo 22 Jun 2020
In reply to Si dH:

> To take this further, if you are at high risk, then you should have the right to go to a crag and expect other climbers to follow the guidance, not routinely break it and therefore prevent you from being able to safely climb at all.

If you were high-risk then you would have had a letter advising you to self-isolate for 12 weeks, no? So you don't have the right to turn up to the crag whether people are 100% compliant or not. 

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 Si dH 22 Jun 2020
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

High risk isn't black/white. I don't just mean people who have to shield. I mean anyone who considers them catching the virus to present more risk, whether that be because they have mild asthma, diabetes, live with their parents or because they are from an ethnic minority at apparently higher risk. That doesn't matter - the point is that if they think an acceptable level of risk means people around them following the guidelines, that is what people should do. (And is anyway - but many people clearly aren't.)

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 r0x0r.wolfo 22 Jun 2020
In reply to Si dH:

> High risk isn't black/white. I don't just mean people who have to shield. I mean anyone who considers them catching the virus to present more risk, whether that be because they have mild asthma, diabetes, live with their parents or because they are from an ethnic minority at apparently higher risk. That doesn't matter - the point is that if they think an acceptable level of risk means people around them following the guidelines, that is what people should do. (And is anyway - but many people clearly aren't.)

Actually, this area is clinically defined into high, medium, and low risk: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/people-at-higher-risk/

I think we would be better served if people didn't make up new definitions of 'high risk' on the spot. 

Post edited at 13:06
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 r0b 22 Jun 2020
In reply to Si dH:

> To take this further, if you are at high risk, then you should have the right to go to a crag and expect other climbers to follow the guidance, not routinely break it and therefore prevent you from being able to safely climb at all.

How did the OP break the guidance and/or prevent anyone else from climbing safely?

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 Si dH 22 Jun 2020
In reply to r0b:

I specifically said that I wasn't talking about the OP when I wrote that post a few back up the thread at 10:44.

Post edited at 13:21
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 Si dH 22 Jun 2020
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

> Actually, this area is clinically defined into high, medium, and low risk: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/people-at-higher-risk/

> I think we would be better served if people didn't make up new definitions of 'high risk' on the spot. 

It isn't just medical risk, it is broader - see my example of people living with their parents. I don't think you get the point I was making so I'll leave it at that.

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In reply to Duppyup:

It sounds by what Ali is saying that you should have got to the crag earlier and be a bit more flexible with your plans. I've been in that situation plenty of times in crags with a lot less choice an Kilnsey and it's never been a problem. 

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 r0x0r.wolfo 22 Jun 2020
In reply to Si dH:

> It isn't just medical risk, it is broader - see my example of people living with their parents. I don't think you get the point I was making so I'll leave it at that.

I'm not missing anything at all. You're moving the goalposts. This is your original point. 

> To take this further, if you are at high risk, then you should have the right to go to a crag and expect other climbers to follow the guidance, not routinely break it and therefore prevent you from being able to safely climb at all.

At no point did you mention anyone's parents so you've simply changed your point. That's fine, but don't pretend it’s other people who are 'are not getting it' or being a bit thick. 

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 r0x0r.wolfo 22 Jun 2020
In reply to Ramon Marin:

> It sounds by what Ali is saying that you should have got to the crag earlier and be a bit more flexible with your plans. I've been in that situation plenty of times in crags with a lot less choice an Kilnsey and it's never been a problem. 

He better be flexible if every pair of climbers are going to occupy two routes each!

Post edited at 15:05
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In reply to salad fingers:

These are good examples but surely your partner would still be there and could explain the situation and have a sensible discussion about it. “The muppet left his shoes in the car, he’ll be back in 10 so go for it if you’re going to be quick / would you mind doing something else.”

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In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

Come on, don't tell me there isn't enough routes in Kilnsey to warm up on. The climbing etiquette goes both ways, understanding someone project and letting people on your route. I can read a situation when someone is keen for a redpoint and I don't mind waiting my turn if he/she was there before or find something else. On the other hand, if it a busy crag, like Brean, and I have a rope up but I'm not quite ready a people ask for a go then I pull it. Anyways, why the OP just get on the original start of the the route he wanted to do? Why did he have to insist in getting on Ali's route? 

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In reply to Al Randall:

But he was eyeing the wrong route...

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 Al Randall 22 Jun 2020
In reply to Ramon Marin:

To be clear I am talking about hanging a rope and then both climber and belayer disappearing out of sight.  Right route, wrong route if it prevents someone else climbing the route it's a selfish act. And lets not pretend, in the vast majority of cases that is the intention and usually the pair are off warming up on another route.  Granted there are exceptional cases where something unforeseen draws both climbers away. I'll be generous and say 5%.

I've expressed my opinion that I disapprove of this practice and stated that it was a half hearted apology. I've said more than enough and the guy has had a hard time of it so I think we should let it rest.

Al

Post edited at 17:32
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 salad fingers 22 Jun 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

You may find that annoying, but that is not the scenario on which I was elaborating.

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 salad fingers 22 Jun 2020
In reply to Misha:

True, and then I'm sure all would be fine in that situation. Although,g the responses of many on here, I suspect even that situation would be unacceptable.

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 Andy Hardy 22 Jun 2020
In reply to salad fingers:

It was the scenario of the OP.

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 salad fingers 22 Jun 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Keep up, I was replying to Al.

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 r0x0r.wolfo 22 Jun 2020
In reply to Ramon Marin:

> Come on, don't tell me there isn't enough routes in Kilnsey to warm up on. The climbing etiquette goes both ways, understanding someone project and letting people on your route. I can read a situation when someone is keen for a redpoint and I don't mind waiting my turn if he/she was there before or find something else. On the other hand, if it a busy crag, like Brean, and I have a rope up but I'm not quite ready a people ask for a go then I pull it. Anyways, why the OP just get on the original start of the the route he wanted to do? Why did he have to insist in getting on Ali's route? 

"Ali's route"? The OP said it was a busy day, so it sounds like you would have pulled the rope for him.

Answer me a couple of questions, do you ever stick clip the bottom of a route then wander off and climb something else?

Would you, as your partner is around an 45 minutes from completing and stripping a route tell somone they're not allowed to climb another route because that's the route you want to climb next and you have gear in it?

Post edited at 23:28
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In reply to the thread:

At the end of the day, it’s a case of being sensible and getting along with others at the crag. Treat others and their gear as you would like you and your gear to be treated. So don’t leave ropes in situ and both wander off out of sight and earshot. On the other hand, if you see a rope in situ, make enquiries as to whose it is, if possible (might not be possible if no one else is in the area). If the rope owner isn’t anywhere to be found, just do another route, if possible (if it’s your project or other routes of that grade are taken then that’s a different matter)

Incidentally, this is only really an issue at large crags. At smaller crags where you can see / hear everyone at the crag, communication about such things isn’t generally an issue.

In the current situation, respecting SD towards other people is important even if you take a fairly relaxed approach to it, unless you can see that they are fairly relaxed about it as well. Then again, if someone is belaying on a narrow section of path with a drop below, they can’t reasonably expect other people to get around them while maintaining SD. So if you’re being very strict on SD, it’s probably best to go to a crag where that won’t be an issue and/or where there aren’t many people in the first place.

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In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

Yes I do. Then people come ask if they can jump on the route and I say yes and if they mind using my rope or leave the first clip pre-clipped. Never had a problem. But that’s me. If someone said they minded, then I would just moved on and find something else, life’s too short and Kilnsey has hundreds of routes. You making a meal of this mate. 

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 Al Randall 23 Jun 2020
In reply to Lankyman:

> Can't see my screen for the amount of mouth foam being generated on this thread!

I assume you are using the term "foam" in a derogatory manner? I don't see foam, I just see healthy debate about a subject that some people feel strongly about, courtesy at the crag.

Al

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 Al Randall 23 Jun 2020
In reply to Ramon Marin:

> Yes I do. Then people come ask if they can jump on the route and I say yes and if they mind using my rope or leave the first clip pre-clipped. 

So you don't see a problem of putting people into the position of having to ask you for permission? The problem with that is that some will be too self conscious to ask and others may react in a confrontational manner. Neither is a good place to be.

Al

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 john arran 23 Jun 2020
In reply to Al Randall:

> So you don't see a problem of putting people into the position of having to ask you for permission? The problem with that is that some will be too self conscious to ask and others may react in a confrontational manner. Neither is a good place to be.

I don't disagree with the point you're making, but it's a sad indictment of modern society when like-minded people engaged in the same niche pursuit at the same location may feel awkward about having to converse with one another.

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 Al Randall 23 Jun 2020
In reply to john arran:

> I don't disagree with the point you're making, but it's a sad indictment of modern society when like-minded people engaged in the same niche pursuit at the same location may feel awkward about having to converse with one another.

Yes it is but perhaps it's things like this type of behaviour that is contributing to that. In my many years of trad climbing I don't ever recall experiencing any similarly potentially, uncomfortable situations or there were so few that I have forgotten them.  

Al

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 r0x0r.wolfo 23 Jun 2020
In reply to Ramon Marin:

> Do you stick clip the bottom of a route then wander off and climb something else?

> Yes I do.

That's interestingly anti-social behaviour. Why do you do that then?

Post edited at 10:24
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 salad fingers 23 Jun 2020
In reply to Al Randall:

These situations happen all the time at major sport climbing venues for all kinds of reasons and most people - on both sides the discussion - sort themselves out without any trouble. As John says, it's a little depressing that people  don't feel able to have an open conversation about it. Their loss.

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 salad fingers 23 Jun 2020
In reply to Al Randall:

I don't think a comparison with trad climbing is entirely fair - the general dynamics of the climbing environments are very different.

I'm surprised you can't think of any awkward moments when trad climbing. Maybe I've been unlucky in my decades of both trad and sport, but trad climbing is where I'd look for the most egregious antisocial, awkward - and potentially dangerous - behaviour. 

For example, how about abseiling over the top of a leader; a team overtaking another on multi-pitch (I'm thinking Alps here); throwing or dropping ropes with no call; crashing another party's belay; fresh human excrement on the belay ledge; top roping classic climbs for the day. I could go on. These have all led to some very awkward conversations.

More pertinent, I've also frequently witnessed the coiled ropes at the bottom of a climb, which is the trad equivalent of reserving a route with the first bolt clipped.

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 Al Randall 23 Jun 2020
In reply to salad fingers:

I'm glad to hear that but it's pretty obvious from the trend of this post that a hell of a lot of people disapprove of this type of behaviour.  Perhaps one of those silent majority issues or a case of suffering in silence. Thankfully not many turn into violent disagreements but I have seen several that do.

With regard to trad you do make some valid points.  It's just that reserving a route seems to be an overtly selfish act which I have witnessed more often than anything else but more to the point and perhaps more worrying it seems to be tacitly accepted. I think everyone would unreservedly disapprove of the trad instances you describe. There in lies the difference.

Al

Post edited at 11:15
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 ali k 23 Jun 2020

I've been debating whether to come back to this thread or not for fear of reigniting it. I hope that doesn't happen, but I just wanted to add a couple of things given some of the comments that have been made.

1. Generally speaking I entirely disagree with 'reserving' routes by clipping just the first bolt and then disappearing. I tried to explain in my original post that's not the reason the bolt was initially clipped on this occasion but I understand why people may have skim read the thread and thought that. With hindsight I should have just taken the rope and quickdraw out before going to belay my partner, but I honestly thought it wasn't a consideration this time given how relatively unpopular the route was (I understand not everyone has a ukc logbook but they give a good general idea of popularity and this route was last logged in 2016). And as I say, the guidebook 7c doesn't start there so I didn't think that was a consideration either. I appreciate not everyone would know that and I should have communicated this better initially. Leaving the first draw (or two) pre-clipped before a redpoint go on routes with a hard start is pretty standard practice and is a completely separate argument to have I think.

2. The pre-clipped rope was about 10-15m away from where I was belaying and visible to us. We didn't disappear down the other end of the crag. That's probably not relevant anyway, but it's an assumption that's been made on here.

3. For the reasons above, the rope and quickdraw were in - I can't change that now and couldn't change it at the time the OP came over to me. I'm not defending it, that's just how it was at the time. And ordinarily it would have been a very simple "Yes" that he could pull the rope or take the quickdraw out. But I still don't feel comfortable with that so there was a bit more involved than under normal circumstances to get my rope and quickdraw out without him touching it. Before this weekend I thought most people were following the BMC guidelines of not sharing or touching ropes, quickdraws etc as that's generally what I've observed but I understand that's not necessarily the case now and that's fine. I accept all the criticism about "Why were you at Kilnsey at a weekend in that case?". But up until Saturday it had been fairly quiet and that day seems to have been an exception with a lot of people travelling up from Sheffield.

4. The crag was busy, yes, but there was also a reasonably popular 7b+ that was free at the time in between where I was belaying and the rope that was pre-clipped. I can't say how many other routes were free as I didn't walk along the crag.

5. The original position of him just wanting to warm up on whatever was free and it being fine to say no if I wasn't happy with it very quickly changed to "Well I'm going to get on it at some point today" in an effort to twist my arm. But I accept I should have just lowered my partner and taken the draw out for him when it became clear he was determined to get on that particular line. Again, I apologise.

6. My apology to him still stands. The climbing scene, particularly at Malham and Kilnsey is pretty small and I'm sure we'll bump into each other again. I'm unlikely to recognise him but either way I don't want any bad blood with anyone at the crags. At the moment I'm just trying to keep my distance and avoid sharing routes. I thought that was still possible on Saturday, and has been up to now, but I totally accept it's unlikely to always be the case and it's up to me to adapt and others shouldn't be expected to.

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 Al Randall 23 Jun 2020
In reply to ali k:

You given a reasonable account of yourself and declared a genuine apology.  Good for you.  I'm still posting because "reserving routes" is one of my pet hates. I'm debating the practice not the specifics so please do not take it personally

Al

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 Al Randall 23 Jun 2020
In reply to salad fingers:

> For example, how about abseiling over the top of a leader;

Most often an inadvertent mistake.

a team overtaking another on multi-pitch (I'm thinking Alps here);

As long as this is done safely and with courtesy it's a non issue and accepted practice (It's mostly Brits who don't get this)

throwing or dropping ropes with no call;

Again usually inadvertent.

crashing another party's belay;

Unfortunate but may be unavoidable.

fresh human excrement on the belay ledge;

What can I say

top roping classic climbs for the day.

Agreed selfish if a long time is taken.

> More pertinent, I've also frequently witnessed the coiled ropes at the bottom of a climb, which is the trad equivalent of reserving a route with the first bolt clipped.

The only times I've seen this is when the climbers are putting on their boots in a safer spot.

Al

Post edited at 11:40
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 gravy 23 Jun 2020
In reply to ali k:

Also to be clear:

- clipping a route and getting distracted isn't a problem - you seem to be stuck on this point.

- getting riled if someone takes your gear down or not immediately saying, "sorry, you can crack on", when asked is antisocial.

Same for top ropers. 

You set your gear up and other stuff happens all the time. None of this is a problem until you're not gracious when someone else wants to climb. 99.9/100 times if you're immediately nice you'll reach a happy compromise within 10 seconds.

I've frequently been on both sides of this conversation and never left without new friends.

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In reply to Al Randall:

It's not permission it's just what's called being good at talking to other humans 

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In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

you'll find I'm rather social, say hi next time you see me at the crag

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 Chris Murray 23 Jun 2020
In reply to Duppyup:

I wouldn't even ask. Pull the ropes and climb it.

WWWD?

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 r0x0r.wolfo 23 Jun 2020
In reply to ali k:

Fair play.

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 JMarkW 24 Jun 2020
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

> Fair play.

Be nice if the anonymous OP would be magnanimous and accept the apology. 

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In reply to JMarkW:

Be nice if they made a second appearance at all.

Without Ali K's posts I'd be thinking troll

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 Lankyman 24 Jun 2020
In reply to Michael Hood:

> Be nice if they made a second appearance at all.


I've heard he's busy - working on a new line at Kilnsey. I think it's going to be called Mountain out of a Molehill?

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 jt232 24 Jun 2020

I take a short rest, go for a dump in the shrubbery

​​​​​​Don't shit in the bushes you dirty bastard!

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 Andy Gamisou 24 Jun 2020
In reply to Ramon Marin:

> Yes I do.

Why?

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