UKH

Sudden thought, with all the hand sanitising we'll be doing, does anybody know if it reacts in any way with nylon/dyneema etc?

I'm sure someone will have checked this but thought I check as it's pretty damn important to know about if not!

Be crazy if this had been overlooked! 

P.s. Sorry for caps, just thought it might be quite urgent given the timing

https://www.plasticsintl.com/chemical-resistance-chart

This chart gives the following reaction description for isopropyl alcohol with nylon:

"B = Slight attack by absorption. Some swelling and a small reduction in mechanical likely."

That doesn't initially sound too clever! Hopefully someone in the know can verify.

It looks like ethanol is fine though. I know both are used in commercially available gels however and isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alcohol) is often used when people make there own.

Good question. It would be handy to have a list/description stating which are definitely ok. Maybe the BMC could provide some advice on this.

It looks like there is also another chemical sometimes found in sanitiser called benzalkonium chloride. I can't find any info about whether it reacts with nylon so far.

These ingredients — alcohol (ethanol or ethyl alcohol), isopropyl alcohol, and benzalkonium chloride — are used in approximately 97 percent of OTC hand sanitizers. As for the other 3%???

Also begs the question, what about liquid chalk with isopropyl alcohol in? Can't believe the manufacturers of it haven't asked the question.

Interestingly, another industry chart (Cole-Palmer) lists ethanol and PAD (Nylon) compatibility as A-Excellent but IPA (isopropyl-alcohol) and Nylon compatility as D-Severe effect. There is similar discrepancy in other compatibility charts and without further sources I am not really sure what's going on, it might be just a case of blindly quoting different sources testing for different qualities all over again.

On the other hand, Teufelberger (industry rope manufacturer) and Singing Rock (climbing gear manufacturer incl. ropes) report no significant degenerative effects on Nylon with numerous tests in ethanol and insignificant with IPA (but they still don't recommend more than few times). Teufelberger reports something like 2-4% strength loss with IPA exposure for PAD and Dyneema, none for PES, but read both yourself.

You can read the full Singing Rock statement here (including washing recommendations and US studies of strength after washing): 

https://www.singingrock.com/covid-19-disinfection-statement

and Teufelberger here:

https://www.teufelberger.com/en/products-services/safety-and-rescue-ropes/a...

with 70/30 IPA/water sanitiser: "The results show, that there has been no decrease in breaking strength for Polyester ropes, and only 2-4% decrease for other ropes tested. However, we did note that the hand and flexibility of the rope does deteriorate after the disinfection."

Obviously, anything containing bleach or acids is a big NO-GO

If you're outside climbing it probably won't be necessary to sanitise your hands all the time - what will you be touching that's contaminated with coronavirus? Just cleaning/washing your hands in some way before eating and after finishing climbing, as you should be doing anyway, should do.

In addition, if you use it as directed then the solvent should have evaporated by the time you're handling any gear.

The rock surface, holds, shared kit, gates,stiles ... I think we definitely need some hard info on this. Not hard to imagine situations where people squeeze a bit too much out, and then just crack on climbing/belaying before it's all evaporated. Agree though that if we know about it we can avoid it simply by waiting for it to evaporate. We could also ensure we use gels which we know are safe.

I mean I wouldn’t....

Another one we should probably check - some gels also contain hydrogen peroxide. Is that safe? Does it also evaporate?

Judging by wor lasses hair it's dodgy!!

Dyneema is ultra-high-molecular weight poly(ethylene), and will, as far as I’m aware, be inert to virtually all chemical agents except things like strong acids. Nylon, whilst also pretty chemically inert, may be slightly more likely to exhibit some reactivity with alcohols (alcoholysis of the amide bonds, albeit unfavourable, may slowly occur in the presence of very high alcohol concentrations- like if the rope is submerged in ethanol or isopropanol). I can’t speak on the subject of solubility and/or swelling of the polymers in alcohols, which could also impact the strength of your gear, but many polymers are highly insoluble in alcohols (you can actually exploit this property to purify many aliphatic polyesters), and I would think Dyneema and Nylon would be no exception. To be honest, if you wait 10 seconds for the alcohol to evaporate from your hands after sanitising, I don’t think it’s conceivable that you’d encounter significant issues. And there is unlikely to be a enough of any other chemicals on your hands to contaminate, say, 50 m of rope to a sufficient extent to do any harm. Not least because you’d likely have already noticed other plastic items being damaged after using sanitiser if this was a risk. The only way I could imagine this being untrue would be if something in the sanitiser was able to act as a highly active depolymerisation catalyst under atmospheric conditions, but this seems vanishingly unlikely.

TLR - Although currently a very lapsed Climber, I would categorise myself as ultra-cautious, but I’d personally just let the sanitiser evaporate before handling slings and ropes and not worry about it. Your call though.

Source: I’ve got a PhD in polymer chemistry. 

Oh and if you're concerned about hand sanitiser with oxidising agents in, which would be more understandable, you could always just make sure you buy a hydrogen peroxide-free brand.

Thank you for a bit of common sense amid all the ignorance and hysteria.

I can remember a UKC thread about Deet dissolving biros and Silva compasses but being safe in contact with your climbing rope. Always found it a bit worrying . ( I know it's not the same stuff.....)

What follows is anecdotal but my practical experience suggests it's not a problem.

Hand-san is widely used in the mountains in NZ where you're in huts for days at a time and there isn't running water.  I've never had any issues with it affecting gear and I've never heard of anyone who has.

It does sting a bit if you get it on your contact lenses before putting them in, though...

Have a look at the Beal website which recommends disinfecting ropes with Isopropyl Alcohol. 

This is an example of whats great about the UKC forums - someone asks a reasonable question and an expert (Strachan) replies to to give a very useful and well presented reply. Just great.

I don't mean this unkindly, but you do seem a bit over-anxious about all this.  My feeling is that the COVID-related risk from outdoor climbing is extremely low.  I'd be much more concerned about using public transport or going to the supermarket.

Personally, I won't be going anywhere too busy, I'll try to keep my fingers away from my mouth, probably use some alcohol-based wipes when I get back to the car, and definitely give my hands a good wash when I get back to the house.  That's it.

...derived from their Phd! Perhaps not so common.

Lots of information from kit manufacturers here https://www.papertrail.io/blog/covid-19-links-and-resources-for-equipment-o...

I’d be more worried about using DEET when the midges are out. 

Yeah, that certainly is reassuring to know. Here's the text from the Beal website relating to it: (the 3rd of 3 given methods, with simply quarantining kit for 72hours as their most recommended method)

https://www.beal-planet.com/en/how-to-disinfect-beal-textile-ppe/

"Sink the product into Isopropyl (or Isopropanol) alcohol for a duration of 30 to 60 seconds. Let the products dry by suspending in a well-ventilated room (due to alcohol vapours), in fresh air at ambient temperature, away from direct sunlight. Leave to dry for 24 hours.

Polyamide, Polyester and Dyneema are not significantly weakened by alcohol in these specific conditions. However, this method could lead to a deterioration. The use of this method should be limited to a maximum of 10 cycles."

So there we have it. It looks like simply waiting for it to evaporate is the absolute safest approach (as most of us would have done anyway)  but it doesn't look serious if isopropyl alcohol comes into contact with our soft equipment for limited periods.

So that's  the ethanol and isopropyl alcohol cleared up. It might be wise however to check what other ingredients are in our particular brands of hand sanitizer as, as mentioned above, there are sometimes other chemicals in there too.

There's various alcohols in liquid chalk. Surely if this was an issue someone would have reported it as a cause in an accident. 

I'd be wary of chemical compatibility tests which aren't conducted by the plastic product manufacturer in question.

Firstly within each plastic category you may find significant differences in chemical performance depending on chemical ratios. Common. Secondly  you may also find that certain manufacturers will rate their product as compatible because it doesn't affect the use criteria they have, this may be completely different from the use you wish to find an answer for. 

Do your own tests or speak to the manufacturer of the specific.product target than relying on online info. Chemical compatibility with plastics is a minefield. 

I think if you are worried about hand sanitiser suddenly causing a rope to snap or a carabiner to fall apart it is possibly time to take up a new safer hobby with fewer variables.....like sewing or fishing. But then of course you could prick yourself with a needle and catch hepatitis if the needle is untreated.......or get attacked by a random passing fish.

For gods sake I wish people would get a grip and stop freaking out about everything. 

Hand sanitizer is obviously used in hospitals and other care settings, along with plenty of good old soap (I'm a nurse).

I have never come across any concern about damage to equipment. 

I suspect that our climbing kit is perfectly safe from contact with very small amounts of hand sanitizer.

Although there is understandable concern about Corona virus transmission, the reality is that viruses are very fragile outside of the human body.

From the evidence I have seen, the probability of contamination from rock is extremely low.

Even if one does pick up the virus from climbing rock, most of us are very fit (relative to most people being admitted to hospital) and very unlikely to become ill.

Transmission is very likely when mixing with others. Therefore the need to maintain safe social distancing is the key thing to keep the infection rate low.