The annual cycle goes on and there's great climbing to be had on limestone but about this time of year I fall in love with granite once again. I'm uncertain as to whether I can achieve objectivity on the matter ...
Jeez - there's no contest. Gimme solidified magma any time.
I am certain that the best climbing in the Dolomites is on igneous rock. Maybe not the best lines, but definitely the best climbing...
Yes.
The opportunity to climb at higher altitudes - and hence mountain scenery? I'm not convinced solely on rock quality alone as limestone comes in so many variants and qualities too.
Maybe the question should be broader 'rock types other than limestone' - it could just be the value in scarcity phenomena.
Granite landscapes mean better light. Its something to do with the quartz in it. The combination of granite, running water, pine and alpine meadows is nothing short of miraculous. Think of the Sierra Nevada, the Cairngorms, the Mercadau valley above Cauteret. Stunning places to climb.
Beautifully illustrated - I might have chosen the same locations to express my love of granite. Exfoliation is the key to the glory of granite I think. It makes the Etive Slabs so bold and ...er... slabby and it makes the wonderful -and protectable - flakes of alpine routes. Complex in the macro, simple in the meso, and complex again in the micro - such a delight to climb upon.
Limestone is a load of shit. OK, that's a bit harsh because I like Pembroke, but even the most amazing 45 degree overhanging tufa jungle only provides soulless bolt routes I've forgotten after a week, so...so what.
Granite is beautiful, but I find it really hard work to climb. Gneiss (and rhyolite/dolerite to a lesser degree) on the other hand is where the aesthetics comes together with nice holds to climb, friction and solid gear, so that's where it's at.
When you say gneiss, I'm wondering what crags you have in mind.
If he's any sense (and previous posts lead me to believe he does), then in mind he has Diabaig, Sheigra and the various great crags of the Hebrides.
> If he's any sense (and previous posts lead me to believe he does), then in mind he has Diabaig, Sheigra and the various great crags of the Hebrides.
Exactly those crags.
Thanks, never got to climb on them. Though I looked up at and photographed Sron Ulladale ... quite physical even looking at it: you get a crick in the neck.
> Limestone is a load of shit. OK, that's a bit harsh because I like Pembroke, but even the most amazing 45 degree overhanging tufa jungle only provides soulless bolt routes I've forgotten after a week, so...so what.
can't agree there even if its bolted; there is even one crag of which I think 'it could almost be granite' for its cracks corners and flakes. Oh - and I remember good tufa lines - almost forever
Well, duh.
Bosigran, Shelter Stone, Chamonix, Yosemite.
The only thing better that granite might be gabbro - but I'm unashamedly biased!
Steve
> Limestone is a load of shit. OK, that's a bit harsh because I like Pembroke, but even the most amazing 45 degree overhanging tufa jungle only provides soulless bolt routes I've forgotten after a week, so...so what.
> Granite is beautiful, but I find it really hard work to climb. Gneiss (and rhyolite/dolerite to a lesser degree) on the other hand is where the aesthetics comes together with nice holds to climb, friction and solid gear, so that's where it's at.
There are some very wonderful limestone routes I have done on limestone, even British inland limestone (Darius, Adjudicator Wall, Scoop Wall... I could keep listing) so a sweeping statement like limestone is shit is a bit over the top. If Kalymnos and Pembroke count then clearly it can be pretty great. I would agree that if I had to drop one rock type and replace it with another then limestone would go (although I'd replace it with dolerite myself)
> There are some very wonderful limestone routes I have done on limestone, even British inland limestone (Darius, Adjudicator Wall, Scoop Wall...
Imagine how good those routes would be if they weren't made of polished shite!
I kind of agree (although I didn't find the polish on those routes really caused a problem) but I've done granite stuff that was polished (Hay Tor and Bosigran) and found the glaze produced to be as bad as limestone (obviously nowhere near as much of it) I feel that dolerite and rhyolite are very resistant to polish (partially because they smooth down rather than glaze)
I guess what I'm saying is that limestone seems to polish more quickly than other rocks but is as grippy as any when unused and sound too (in the right locations) so really we blame it for what we do to it.
But yes I prefer other rocks having said all that!
It can also be horrible when it's not polished. Prickly grey slabs?
Sheffield mafia innit. Anything but grit is crap...
Now you've done it!
<runs and hides and waits for a donkeys head at the end of my bed>
Here's my ranking
1, Dolerite
2, Rhyolite
3, Granite
4, Grit
5, Slate
6, Limestone/sandstone
> Sheffield mafia innit. Anything but grit is crap...
For us in or near Sheffield we also have lots of limestone nearby to climb on. Most of it is (in the nicest possible way) crap though so maybe that's why everyone loves grit.
Looking at my logbook I've done more on limestone this spring and summer though, than I have on grit.
Here's mine
Gneiss
Rhyolite (good rough bubbly, not smooth slatey)
Grit/hard sandstone
Dolerite (haven't climbed much, but while it's wonderfully rough it usually proves too cracky for me)
Granite
Dodgy half-baked quartzite/Culm/other coastal weirdness, e.g. greenstone
Slate
Limestone
Pardon my ignorance but where/what crags do you find Gneiss?
NW Highlands and Islands. At Diabeag and around, it's slabby/wally with cracks and small holds. At Sheigra, it's overhanging with massive jugs, similar to Pabbay and Mingulay which is generally very steep and very juggy. On Lewis, it's a bit more variable, and sadly there's less of the overhanging juggy stuff (the main source of my overall disappointment with the place).
I dunno. I reckon us brits have been brought up on a diet of "grit is gods own rock". Yeah it's ok, but it's not the be all and end all is it... Sure, lime can be polished to buggery, but it has it's own charm and there are plenty of venues which are not polished. Sure, if you head to Avon and climb the low grade trade routes they are virtually mirrors, but then I've seen most other rocks equally polished. So IMO it's more a case of seek out good rock - if it's good it'll be good regardless of the variety.
Defending the indefensible.
The Bug's a joy to behold.
Nope the south face of the Marmolada has the best rock and lines, pristine pocketed limestone.
Marmolada Limestone is fantastic for sure, but I can througly recommend the Porphyry climbing on Tognazza around Passo Rolle.
#whatevs
Gneiss
Torridonian/Yesnaby Sandstone
Granite/Gabbro/Andesite (a tie)
Rhyolite
everything else (Grit discounted from the above since it's south of the border)
> I kind of agree (although I didn't find the polish on those routes really caused a problem) but I've done granite stuff that was polished (Hay Tor and Bosigran) and found the glaze produced to be as bad as limestone (obviously nowhere near as much of it) I feel that dolerite and rhyolite are very resistant to polish (partially because they smooth down rather than glaze)
granite does come in different qualities - some of which are close to marble; or is it rather veins of other rocktype (ophite ?) which create this variety ...
and it seems largely immune to polish - thanks in part to characteristic self-renewal: delamination. but this creates its own problem for the climber when the smears crumble - especially notable on low angle 'elephant-arse' - slabs
The only rock worth climbing is conglomerated limestone filled with potato rocks that fall out in your hands. Everywhere other than Maple Canyon, Utah, might as well be gym climbing.
I think you need to visit the Forest of Dean!
> Pardon my ignorance but where/what crags do you find Gneiss?
Lots of it on Guernsey, blue stuff and pink stuff. Blue seems to weather into grippy curvy stuff, pink fails along faults so has flat bits. Both have amazing friction.
There is granite and then there's granite. IMO, the best granite is found on the Cornish sea cliffs Chair Ladder and The Dewerstone. Then there's the featureless slabs found in places like Gerstenegg where you make the same move dozens of times. This latter form of granite makes for climbing which is both boring and frightening at the same time.
Arran and Lundy are the other obvious ones. Mostly superlative.
Like you I value the macro complexity of granite cracks and flakes, and I know what you mean about the boringness of making the same move again and again on a blank slab, but I fundamentally disagree! For me this is where the micro-interest of granite reigns supreme. On such slabs one must judge the merits of the tiny, multifarious rugosities and trade those merits off against the best position to place a foot or hand....there are almost infinite options for the brain to compute. And then, pre-eminent, there's the dubious joy of overcoming the fear of uncertainty, of trusting one's fine judgements.... which is exciting enough on the bolted Swiss slabs to which you refer, but much more so on, say, the Etive slabs. But I understand that these pleasures are not for everyone.
Not ever climbed on Arran, but Lundy, yes. Also Jersey.
> There is granite and then there's granite.
Mybe the seawash cleans off any delamination - or stops the frost getting in. I have enjoyed a fair bit of coastal granite around the UK incl Lundy.
So boring and frightening - is that an appropriate label for the devils slide ?! I did it solo on my last day there and u may guess at least one of those didn't apply
> So boring and frightening - is that an appropriate label for the devils slide ?! I did it solo on my last day there and u may guess at least one of those didn't apply
No
> This latter form of granite makes for climbing which is both boring and frightening at the same time.
'frightening' : is it the rock or rather the bolt / pro spacing ? legendary around Yosemite (tho I never got there ) - would prob have to agree with you for pro at >= 4m intervals
Sliding down a granite slab sounds extremely painful.
> Sliding down a granite slab sounds extremely painful.
but not as bad as limestone - I backed off a less than optimally protected crux once muttering about 'the devils meat grater' but this has never happened on granite
Granite for sure is not better than alpine limestone. It's simply different. And it's nice for a change every now and then.
Have you tried Sheep's Tor, polished granite hell!
I have although I thought Hay Tor to be worse.
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