UKH

Could somebody kindly tell me the easiest and shortest route on the slabs please. What grade please?

Thanks

Ordinary Route - used to be Moderate, was then Difficult - haven't got a new book to check if the level of polish has increased necessitating any further grade inflation. You will need a guide book or some decent information to get off the top, which is a bit grim for the inexperienced.

The Ordinary Route (D)Edit: check the member comments

Coincidentally, I was on the slabs yesterday ( first time in a long time). There is now an abseil point set up for the decent to the gulley. Most welcome and avoids the awkward scramble down into the gulley. 

No no doubt someone is now going to say it’s been there for yonks. 

People abseiling the easy descent scramble doesn't half slow everything up for everyone

Blue sling and a screwgate? That'd be mine! We had no idea what the downclimb was like so decided to play it safe.

There have been several serious accidents here.  If people feel the need to abseil down then I can't see any issues with that.

It is definitely a problem for people who find leading Ordinary Route near their limit - maybe there ought to be a way of getting this across to aspirant ascensionists.

There have been incidents in all forms of climbing. Heaven forbid we sanitize it all because of it..

Hargreaves' Slab and Wall (VD)

Miss out the wall bit - it's rubbish.

One pitch, easy descent.

Totally agree. I Hate having to wait. I mean, who really cares if someone has really hurt themselves previously and it’s totally preventable with a perfectly safe abseil? 

Abseils are not perfectly safe. But you knew that 

This is the slightly awkward (and not at all obvious the first time you do it) descent route from possibly the easiest and most popular first real multipitch route in the UK. I more or less expect to find someone struggling with it every time I go there, and I've lost count of the number of teams I've helped down it.

<dons helmet> twenty years ago members of Ogwen Valley MR told me they would love a single bolt to be placed there. It would speed the descent for beginners, and also confirm that they really were on the right route. I'm not completely sure I agree, but I see their point...

It’s straightforward for a climber or half competent hill scrambler. The key is to go a little bit further than you think you can then you see the descent.

the abseil is unnecessary and the tat is messy.

I really can't see encouraging beginners to abseil a straightforward scramble down in any way speeds up progress.  Beginners especially are (rightly) prone to be slow on setting themselves up.

Of course, scoffing experts can easily solo down just to the side.

Are there many Polish there? Will there be less after Brexit?, will the grade go back down when they've all gone back home?

The point is that they are going to abseil regardless of how easy you think the scramble is.

When a novice team arrives at that ledge, they don't know how hard the scramble really is.  They also don't know for certain that they're even in the right place.  These are both reasons that the sensible approach is to get the rope back out.

The point that the chap from OVMR made to me was that a single bolt there would both reassure novices that they were in the right spot, and make it quicker to then rig their abseil.  This was years ago, and I don't know if it was, either then or now, their official position.

Easy is relative. If you're worried about that descent taking too long because of beginners, why don't you solo a route down? Too hard or dangerous? Well it isn't for some people. 

If someone is setting up an ab on something you're happy soloing down, just be polite and ask them if you can nip in front (like I'm sure everyone does). I've never not been happy to let someone nip in front if they're downclimbing or soloing. 

Everyone starts somewhere.

I think that down climbing these kind of descents is part of learning the all round skills that makes a climber. Noobies could down climb with the more experienced climber belaying them from the top, probably safer than abbing. I’d have no problem waiting a few minutes while this happens. We all have to learn at some point, it’s only like being behind a learner driver really

This is usually what I do. Belay anyone unhappy or nervous down the short steep section, then down climb it myself. I agree that learning to down climb easy but exposed sections is all part of the learning curve. As has been pointed out, it's safer than abbing, which with newbies has the potential for all sorts of horrors.

Perhaps a pair of abseil bolts just to the side of the downclimb?  That way people soloing are not impeded and everyone is happy.

This is a well known accident blackspot on a busy crag frequented by trad beginners and personally I'd place a higher value someone's life above any visual disturbance a couple of well placed bolts might add.  If the bolts save just one accident then they are worth it.  Don't forget if Idwal slabs was in the Alps then there would probably be a ladder!

and more likely to get it wrong in trying to hurry but more likely to tread carefully on a scramble

Again, you make the mistake of assuming abseils are safe for beginners.  Scrambling is a far more natural thing for a beginner to be able to do than set up, use and retrieve an abseil.

Personally I do down climb to the side of the abseil but that wasn't my point.  Teams of beginners will not be able to do this - they will be forced into a very slow moving queue.

Abseil errors and queues leading to benightment are part of the reason for it being a blackspot. If you reach a queue with beginners its quicker and safer to contine the short scramble up to the cwm above.

I bet you love using hexes ! 

Natch !

If I'm ever back in the area I'll be sure to avoid on the off chance you're around and I slow you down 😀

For some people abseiling is simply the safest option and just because they don't think it's an easy scramble doesn't  mean they shouldn't be there.

If they're beginners how come they're such experts on absiling ? They only do it as a default if they are pushed towards it by eg these threads. Ive never climbed with a beginner yet (me as well many years ago) who hasn't managed the scramble easily enough.

There has been several times I have decided to abb this when it's wet and greasy rather than risk a sketchy down climb.  Other times I've downclimbed without any problem.  Depends on the conditions and who I'm with as to what's going to be the likely safest option on any given day.

The slabs were one of my first multi pitch climbs when I was only a vdiffs leader and not a very confident one either. Being from a South Wales city for the first part of my life I had never spent a lot of time in the mountains either so I never really had any scrambling experience. 

The first time I seen the down climb I thought to myself no way can I climb down that it's harder than what I just climbed up (it looked very intimidating at the time). The person I was with who had more experience than me was willing to climb down it but as I was not they happily set up and absail and it give me a really good overall experience of the mountains which has brought me back time and time again.

A few years later and I have done the down climb quite a few times and find it really easy but I now have a lot more experiance. 

I suppose what I am trying to say is everyone has different comfort levels. Some people are happy to try an e1 on there first day climbing. Others like me s##t themself on a vdiffs but over the years get more used to the exposure.

The downclimb is intimidating rather than difficult.  If someone has been able to climb up the Slabs they should be capable of the downclimb, it's a matter of confidence.  It's no more difficult than many other situations they will come across in the mountains.  Abseiling is seldom the safest option, and a permanent anchor would normalise this and add to the delays, especially with novices who may not have abseiled before.  Roping down is another option, will often be quicker and avoids abandoning gear, and will give the climber confidence that it's not as difficult as it looks from above.  Of course in wet and greasy conditions abseiling may then be the best choice, but it should be a matter of judgement not the default.

I believe that headfirst down Hope with no rubbers or rope is traditional? Make sure you're wearing sturdy elastic braces and keeping an eye out for soft soap, though.

Doesn’t it? It’s the point of climbing to go to places that only your competence can get you to, surely?

jcm

I think you're wasting your breath! In the olde dayes most people came into climbing from a hill walking and scrambling background; I did, and the first time I did a route on the Slabs (Ordinary Route) the descent was fine, just standard easy scrambling. These days most climbers seem to start out at the wall, so even something simple like the Idwal descent is way out of their comfort zone. They then resort to abbing (possibly because that's what the people in front do, or because they see the ab tat) which ironically is harder, slower and more dangerous. That's the mindset that they then adopt, first preference for descending is via an ab, hence the ab ropes routinely thrown onto climbers at places like Gimmer or Tremadog.

Agreed. Abseil points at accident blackspots doesn't detract from the climbing in any way shape or form. Here in the lakes we lost a very experienced climber descending from raven crag langdale last year. I didn't know him personally, but he was a close friend of someone I climb with. An abseil point would almost certainly have prevented his accident and he'd still be here.

This!! Everyone seems to be focussing on whether or not the 'beginner' should be 'able' to do the downclimb but nobody is considering that they might 'want' to abseil!

For a beginner that's spent a few hours climbing a multi pitch route, doing an abseil is a different, enjoyable experience that provides a thrilling finish to an amazing day. 

With a bit of considerate planning theres no reason people can't move past the abseilers to do the downclimb if they want to be faster.

As to whether that justifies placing bolts rather than finding a way of using one of the spikes that's already there, that's a different issue. 

If they want to abseil they could do this somewhere else where they dont block the scramble descent. This is all about convenience and nothing to do with adventure experience.

I had that incident in mind when I commented earlier. Can’t believe some people’s reticence for maintaining the status quo when sometimes a change would make a massive difference in risk management   

And assessing whether setting up a ‘safe’ abseil or attempting a downclimb is part of that competence. 

Last year when I was climbing in Skye and had topped out on the Cioch, abbed down to the terrace and followed this round to where the guide says "follow the easy scramble descent gully", without any topo of further description. Further down the gully it was getting increasingly spicy and a few bad steps started to appear with bits of ab-tat all over the place. At this stage I opted to get the rope back out to be safe and ended up abbing off a ~30m overhanging waterfall. The other team climbing Sron Na Ciche with us had made the same mistake and were delighted to hear we had also got a lap-full of freezing mountain water. 

At that point I had 2 solid years of trad climbing and a number of mountain years under my belt. 

To expect a beginner to be capable of making a decision about what is a safe downclimb is a bit much. They may not know if they're in the right place, they may not know is rock is loose or slimy. If they know how to or are with someone who knows how to set up an abseil safely and there is ANY doubt over the suitability of the downclimb, getting a rope out should always be the right decision. As long as it's set up safely, an abseil is infinitely safer than taking a punt on a downclimb.

The risk of abseil accidents with beginners is high and consequencies are likely very serious. If beginners want to keep risks down they can (and should) scramble up to the cwm and a walk down. Queues can build fast there when a slow party decides to abseil, especially at dusk: I know climbers who got pointlessly benighted and close to hypothermic waiting for their turn to abseil. Ditto for the Milestone gully steep scramble descent (when again you can scramble up and walk down). I've witnessed Mountain Rescue also called out on one occasion for each venue. This sheep mentality about abseils leading to silly avoidable risk has no place in trad.

Someone I know failed their MIA on the descent because they abbed down. Pulling the rope through will normally dislodge at least some of the scrittle above thus exposing their party and others to danger. The ab tat is also fixed to a not so great block which should be backed up with a nut. The advice given was to belay at block and nut, advise second to downclimb at the side and give them a sling to put on the spike. At the bottom they then belay you down thus all are safe at all times.