UKH

I find it hard to believe that climbers have been out climbing on Southern Sandstone following all the rain we have been having over the last few weeks. What's wrong with these people? Given the amount of publicity there is out there that climbing on wet rock increases the risk of damaging this already fragile rock their selfish actions have resulted in damage to the rocks  as is well illustrated in Natalie Berry's article and accompanying photos on this forum. Why were the faces of these people hidden by superimposed masks? It's a pity that they were not shamed by publicly showing their faces. 

I hope EVERYONE will now heed the request not to climb on SS over the winter months, and if anyone is caught on camera flouting this request I believe they should be shamed as the selfish idiots they are.

Have a look on logbooks. The names are there I guess. 

A lot of them simply don't have a clue. They've never climbed outside a wall before. Every time I've been out on sandstone this summer I've talked to the (obvious) newbies and explained how to rig a top rope properly, sometimes lending them a sling when it transpires that the only kit they own is a rope and a screwgate. Without exception they've all been great, have listened and asked questions and proceeded to take great care to do it properly.

Then there is a minority of utter tw*ts like the climbing instructor on the other thread. I'm not sure there is much you can do about them apart from lying in wait at Harrisons on rainy days and beating them round the head with a large hex until they promise never to return.

For a brief moment i thought SS was savage slit. Haha.

Is there a reason why the BMC cannot just request but actually try prohibiting climbing for a time? Unfortunately it would seem justified at present. Oddly I think this may have been  mentioned by the climbing instructor you mention in the other thread.

I can only imagine the fuss which would rightly be kicked up if the organisation responsible for negotiating access to crags were to start temporarily banning access on crags which it owns.

Do you not remember the fuss the London and SE region made about the toilet block?

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/ukc/closure_of_harrisons_rocks_toilets_an...

The BMC has its hands tied here somewhat as bans on land it owns will result in difficulties negotiating access to real crags which are worth visting (my experience of Southern Sandstone's likeness to a vertical beach makes it difficult to define it as a "real crag").

I think the BMC registers all it's land as Open Access on principle, This is probably a circumstance where this might have proved to be a bad idea ( dedicated conservation bodies tend not to, for this reason)

Whilst an outright ban might seem a bit draconian and against the ethics of the BMC, could they not just have a volunteer there to advise against it?  That way they can keep the carpark open and the dog walkers and the other people who want to use the area can continue to do so (and generate income for the BMC) and the idiot climber numbers will be reduced.

Like when you go to the beach and the sea's rough, the lifeguard can't stop you from going in but he can give you advice to dissuade you from doing so.

Seems a very labour intensive way of doing things though. Stone Farm is also owned by the BMC. Maybe a traffic light system that could be administered remotely would be better. Red = wet rock, closed for climbing, orange = likely sections of wet rock. There could be a prominent QR code on the main sign and signs at the crag that links to the crag status. A well-placed sign or two usually does the job so far a bird bans go without somebody actually patrolling the area.

Agreed it is labour intensive, and shouldn't be necessary but there were just so many idiots down there the other weekend that I think a proportion of them would disregard any signs or QR code (both of which would undoubtedly help) and it only takes one idiot to snap of a hold and completely ruin a classic.

Desperate times call for desperate measures and all that.

Maybe they should make it that no membership, no entry. Then by agreeing to the BMC membership rules you break it you pay for it, prosecute the offenders.

Then at certain times of the year have a total ban to allow the area to recover.

Seems harsh but then some people wont learn without harsh.

Yeah a lot of it is awareness. If I was at a crag and there was a sign that said there was a 'bird nesting on route, please do not climb', I'd be a real bellend to climb the route. Could the BMC not put up signs? That way if people choose to ignore them and still climb you can call them out on it. Otherwise people will always plead ignorance, even if it isn't the case. 

'they' ...

Are you volunteering for the job?

This is exactly the same as wall climbers venturing outside not seeing anything wrong in top roping directly through the lower off staples and wearing them out.  Many of these "new to outdoors" climbers have no connection with what used to be the club culture of passing on know how and etiquette.

The BMC's education policy directed at walls seems to be just posters advising climbers to check their knots.  I think the BMC could work with walls a lot more on this, which would be viewed much more positively than some "old busy body" approaching them at the crag and having the cheek to tell people what to do

Maybe some short videos on the subject and encourage walls to share on their web or fb pages 

Unless you are proposing that you are going to get involved I'm curious to know where said volunteers are going to come from, particularly for a regular and routine role in poor weather/ conditions?

The BMC has a paid part time member of staff to help enforce the access agreement in the Cheddar Gorge, if using someone to enforce on wet days the BMC would probably need to pay a local person for this role as well.

Personally if there were to be an AGM vote on a proposal for a paid role doing this at a Southern Sandstone crag I would vote against it if it were to be funded via general membership subscriptions, the area holds a small amount of historical significance but is certainly not worth causing access problems for in other regions.

Yes, I think it would be a great idea for every climbing gym to have a prominent notice outlining the etiquette for climbing out-of-doors.

I strongly agree

The BMC posted this information on Facebook and tagged six London climbing walls and the Association of British Climbing Walls in the post, which I think is great given social media is probably more effective than BMC newsletters or UKC for reaching the people who need to hear this. When I checked those seven tagged Facebook pages just now only the ABC had reposted the information, which is to me a bit disappointing as the walls seem to be happy to post about lockdown workouts and online shop deals. Given a lot of climbers in London are likely engaged with walls on social media in a way that they aren't with the BMC and UKC, I wonder if it's worth pointing out to these walls more clearly that they have an ability (perhaps even obligation) to communicate this issue to their members.

So unless I'm personally volunteering my time I'm not allowed to suggest a solution to an issue?! 

I'd happily do it but I live in East London and have commitments that prevent me being able to commit any time.

I don't agree, this isn't a permanent issue - it's only for wet spells in lockdown, and probably just for the next couple of weekends till word gets around that it's no go.  No need to make this a bigger deal than it has to be.  Just ask somebody to pop down as a bit of a favour, no biggie.

The Castle has reposted now.

It's actually far worse - the crags cannot be replaced!

Is this actually good practice, or do you get some really fine sunny dry days when there's no more chance of damage than during the summer? Climbing on damp rock is obviously silly, but are you saying that it never dries out in the winter?

If you want to be taken seriously and are asking for a volunteer to do it I tend to find that you have to do some of that volunteering yourself regardless of inconvenience to yourself. That is my personal experience from being a fairly active BMC volunteer and on 2 club committees.

There have been complaints about people climbing on these crags when they're wet various times over the last 8 years (since I started climbing).

As you've mentioned it.. we produced a whole set of short web films over the summer. They're aimed at indoor climbers heading out for the first time, and feature influencers such as Louis Parkinson to help spread the word. 

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTodUXkQjZwyGQZj8e9-qGVTMH3FQ-Adz

They're on YouTube, uploaded to Facebook, were featured on UKC and we also did paid geo-targeted social ads which worked pretty well. 

More coming soon!

Alex.
 

Do you ever go climbing at Harrison's?

As others have said, a lot more wall bred climbers being released into the wild for the first time! I've got no problem with that in itself, but think a bit more education is required to help people understand that they can cause problems if doing certain things 'wrong'.

My main gripe is excessive amount of chalk use, tick marks, and bits of finger tape/rubbish at some local boulder spots (which before this summer didn't see much traffic), even down to chalking footholds (why!?).   

Bit more education via local walls probably sensible, as most of these people are clearly coming via that avenue. 

Its pretty simple, take home what you brought with you, don't s**t in woods, brush your chalk off, don't litter. Observe local rules about access, birds, restrictions etc. 

I see what you're saying, and trust me generally if there's a dirty job I'm the first to volunteer, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't suggest anything unless I can personally handle it, that's not a healthy way to run anything.

My company would go out of business if nobody was allowed to suggest anything that they weren't personally able to action themselves.  In fact, some of the best suggestions come from people outside of the field that's being discussed as an outsider, layman point of view often give a fresh perspective.

I didn't say it would be inconvenient for me, I said I can't. I have other commitments.  People have jobs, partners, children, gravely ill family members in hospital, pets (or all of the above, in my case).  People I love need me right now.  I can't do it.

I'd say there's been issues with people climbing at Harrison's for far longer than your (or my!) brief experience of them, however we have a perfect storm of circumstances - wet weather, lockdown, more climbers than ever before etc etc.  And sometimes extraordinary issues require extraordinary measures.

Like I say, I see what you're saying and I agree with your reasoning, but I don't agree with your conclusion that it means I shouldn't make a suggestion on an internet forum. 

I've been twice, maybe three times.

There's definitely a noticeable increase in litter at the crags I've been to post covid. Weather that's down to larger numbers of people climbing or climbers who are there for a different reason, who knows. 

A grassroots volunteer making a suggestion on a forum is unfortunately unlikely to get anywhere without volunteering to the appropriate person to do it (or just getting on with it!) by simple fact of the suggestion not being picked up and them not having anyone to delegate it out to. I agree that doing all of the jobs yourself is an unhealthy way of running things and that only making suggestions in your competence area is liable to cause missed opportunities.

I hope your family member gets better soon.

That's a fair point.  Maybe someone at the BMC (or somebody with more clout than me!) will think the same and do as you suggest and pop down themselves. 

Thanks for your words about my family member.   

That is a good question.  Historically there has still been climbing done safely and damage-free on sandstone through the winter. On crisp days like you describe, especially after a few other dry days, there are some specific outcrops / sections that are well-known to locals/regulars as being good options for climbing on dry rock. The problem as I see it is that these are quite limited, and so if large numbers descend they will inevitably fan out onto other less suitable bits of rock, especially if they have come from further afield and are therefore unlikely to turn around and head home.

They could apply for a restriction but, as you say, it would be a bit over the top and against their ethos.

Natural England have dedicated quite a few of their National Nature reserves - not exactly with enthusiasm! 

Very rarely. The rock gets so saturated after the Autumn rains that it will take many days to dry our properly, and we rarely get long enough continuous periods of dry/warm weather for it to dry properly until well into the Spring. I've lived down here for the last 40 years and the winter months have always been a no no. At times the rock "sweats" and oozes moisture even on dry days.

I think this is partly to blame. There was a streak of about 3 days prior with no rain, plus a good forecast over the weekend. People without good knowledge of the rock/area probably assumed the rock would be dry.