Gary, please slow down and show more respect!

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18
 Coel Hellier 21 May 2018
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

I would agree.  I don't think closely adjacent sports and trad routes are a good idea.   Sport or trad should be decided on a buttress-by-buttress basis, so either properly retro-bolt a buttress (if that's the consensus of opinion) or leave it trad. 

 

8
 Jim 1003 21 May 2018
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

I think showing respect to Gary or anybody else for that matter means discussing issues first face to face before posting on the internet...

23
 jon 21 May 2018
In reply to Jim 1003:

Maybe he has?

1
 Jim 1003 21 May 2018
In reply to jon:

If he has, one would have expected that in the OP....because it would be odd to post and not include the response he got....

4
In reply to Jim 1003:

> If he has, one would have expected that in the OP....because it would be odd to post and not include the response he got....

Well I have emailed him, and haven't had a reply although to be fair he hasn't had that long. However that isn't really the point. The idea behind an open appeal is exactly that - it is open for all to see. Gary has been doing this for years and seldom/never seeks approval before he carries out his redevelopments. I would like to challenge that by requesting that he slows down and respects what is already there. It is hardly a controversial request and it is one that I am certain he is well aware of but still chooses to ignore.

Alan

13
 gethin_allen 21 May 2018
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Without singling out Garry (around South Wales we have others) I wish people would give up bolting shit routes on shit rock just to get their names on them and their numbers up.

Some of the new routes are great but some of the new stuff on the Gower is only being held up by the glue and bolts. And the bolt placement on some routes is terrible, we've even had a few issues with suspect bolt failures (as discussed in the BMC area meeting I gather).

2
 tom84 21 May 2018
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

this should have been done in person or at the very least in private correspondence- an 'open appeal' on ukc is tantamount to whipping up a witch hunt and you know it alan. its not a controversial request, you're right most of us agree I'm sure- but leveraging ukc against gary is a step too far.

respectfully

tom

30
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Alan, wouldnt it have been better to have discussed this with Gary first before starting this thread?

He has done an awful lot for climbing with his time, money, enthusiasm and magnanimity with his new routing and cleaning and care of established crags and routes over many years. We should be grateful for his contribution and dedication to climbing.

Chris

20
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Three points

1 this really should have been dealt with on a personal level first,as others have said. 

2 if Jugbit direct is a better route, the break out the hilti and do the work. 

3 nasty buttresses all over the country are being bolted and proving very popular, just look at bram crag Quarry, the most frequented crag in the lakes currently. Not to my taste but there is nowt queer as climbers.

As owner and moderator of this site, would you tolerate such an attack from one user on another? 

6
chuffer 21 May 2018
In reply to Christheclimber:

> He has done an awful lot for climbing with his ...

He has also done an awful lot to harm it.

Alan, it may have been better to talk to him privately first but nonetheless I salute you for daring to speak out. If none of us ever speak out against anything we see as wrong then we tacitly accept it all as okay.

 

10
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

I doubt if there is a single poster on this thread who has not chosen to climb and enjoyed dozens, if not hundreds, of routes put by Gary.

If you don't like Gary's routes don't do them, or better still put your hand in your own pocket and create some of your own in a style that you prefer.

There are many climbers who would agree that Gary has done more to give pleasure to other climbers than anyone else in the sport.

I find the tone of the original post a bit rich coming from someone whose principal contribution to climbing has been to publish innumerable for profit guides that are based on the voluntary hard work put in and information provided for free by others - such as Gary.

 

39

I have been having this debate with Gary for the last 25 years so it is not as if it is out of the blue. It became apparent on Sunday that his approach hadn't changed so I decided to be a bit more direct.

Of course I am happy to acknowledge Gary's contribution to climbing in the UK - that is the purpose of my opening paragraph. Anyone who has climbed as much as I have in Pembroke does not find it hard to appreciate some of his more amazing contributions.

Pembroke and Lundy are good examples though. Gary initially tested the water in both those venues by using fixed gear on some of his new routes. He was challenged by this publicly and to his great credit changed his ethic and went on to climb many of the routes in a purer style, after removing the fixed gear.

Perhaps the same can be achieved here although I think fixed gear in Pembroke and Lundy is a bigger issue than this. At the very least I think it is worth discussing and this thread seems to be getting some good responses from both sides.

Alan

3
 Rampikino 22 May 2018
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

I think it is very easy to jump up and down and complain that you should be speaking to Gary directly, but if, as you say, you have been having this debate for some time then a considered and respectful debate is hardly going to cause any issues.  We are all supposed to be resilient, yes?

We live in contradictory times.  One octogenarian BMC activist can be lambasted on these threads, but a prolific new router is untouchable?  You yourself, Alan, have been the subject of many unnecessary diatribes by those who have an axe to grind about Rockfax.  I will bet very few of those angry people came and spoke to you about it first.

Gary's contributions have been "mentioned" on these forums many times in the past, and IIRC not always as respectfully as your approach.

2
 Trangia 22 May 2018
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

I have read this thread with impartiality, and was surprised to see such an open attack on another, although I can understand your frustration if he has not responded to your previous emails.

I await reading Gary Gibson's response to your post with interest.

3
In reply to Trangia:

> I have read this thread with impartiality, and was surprised to see such an open attack on another, although I can understand your frustration if he has not responded to your previous emails.

That would be an unfair characterisation. Our debate has taken many forms over the last 25 years but I don't think he has ever not responded to an email. It does now turn out that I was using an outdated email address the other day, but I have now started a discussion with Gary. Maybe it is best if we move away from the personalities and discuss the principle of how we want to deal with the process of 'redeveloping crags'. As Gethin says above, there are others doing similar things.

It also isn't a new debate - https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/rocktalk/a_no-mad_experience_bolting_noma...

Plus a much longer article here - http://nickbullock-climber.co.uk/2013/10/01/oblivious/

Alan

 GrahamD 22 May 2018
In reply to colin struthers:

Not so easy to avoid when bolts are placed within reach of classic *** VSs.  Alan isn't suggesting GG stops the great work he does do, just to be careful with existing stuff.

 Dave Potter 22 May 2018
In reply to colin struthers:

Not only the new routes but the time and effort he's put in rebolting routes and cleaning up crags - Beeston being a good example. I hate to think how many hours Gary has put in and how much money he's spent both here and in Kalymnos (oops, don't mention the guide)

Post edited at 09:42
 jon 22 May 2018
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

> Plus a much longer article here - http://nickbullock-climber.co.uk/2013/10/01/oblivious/

Interesting, I was going to mention the Craig Arthur thing yesterday as another example but couldn't remember which routes they were and so didn't. And there are so many other instances over the years. But maybe that's why some folk are seeing this as an attack out of the blue - they've either forgotten or maybe just haven't been around long enough. I think the very direct nature of your post is evidence enough of your built up frustration!

 paul mitchell 22 May 2018
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Volume of contribution does not excuse shoddy workmanship.

2
 Coel Hellier 22 May 2018
In reply to Trangia:

> I have read this thread with impartiality, and was surprised to see such an open attack on another, ...

It's not so much an attack on a person as a discussion of bolting policy.  And surely bolting policy is a public issue that should be openly discussed?   After all, putting the bolts in is a public act. 

Removed User 22 May 2018
In reply to GrahamD:

Case in point - I moved round the corner on Highlight (High Tor) and there is a big shiny fecking bolt from his route Sportlight easily clippable. Now there are no shortage of protection opportunities on that route but it grated nonetheless. 3 star classic on a 3 star crag.

 Dave Garnett 22 May 2018
In reply to colin struthers:

> I doubt if there is a single poster on this thread who has not chosen to climb and enjoyed dozens, if not hundreds, of routes put by Gary.

You're right, I've done quite a few fine routes put up by Gary.

Just not the ones with bolts in.

 

 

 

 Dave Garnett 22 May 2018
In reply to Coel Hellier:

> It's not so much an attack on a person as a discussion of bolting policy.  And surely bolting policy is a public issue that should be openly discussed?   After all, putting the bolts in is a public act. 

Yes, I had to check what the policy was.  It used be something simple, like no bolting of natural limestone but those days have long gone.  Now it's something like no bolting of new areas without local agreement at BMC Area meeting... 

 

 keith Lonsdale 22 May 2018
In reply to Christheclimber:

I also think this issue should have been dealt with on a private basis instead of publicly attacking someone who puts an awful lot of time and effort (not to mention money) into our sport. 

Ok not all of the climbs are 3 star but an awful lot of climbers have done the routes and enjoyed them perhaps even using Rocfax guides

Keith

13
 planetmarshall 22 May 2018
In reply to keith Lonsdale:

> I also think this issue should have been dealt with on a private basis instead of publicly attacking someone who puts an awful lot of time and effort (not to mention money) into our sport. 

Nobody denies that, but not all of that time and effort is wanted or desirable. His contributions don't give him carte blanche to put routes up wherever he likes.

 

2
 paul mitchell 22 May 2018
In reply to planetmarshall:

Regarding the Nick Bullock post,I had a trad route in Chee Dale,Nothing To Help The Poor, ruined by bolts in the subsequent Thatcher Years. One idea would be to place bolts on adjacent routes such that they don't give pro for the crux of the trad routes.Consultation always helps.That has rarely been the case with my routes either being retrobolted or having sport routes added within a metre or two.

    How are people going to learn to do hard limestone trad when there are bolts all over the shop?As Nick Bullock commented,sport climbs that don't follow features are rarely memorable.Often, trad projects are  bolted,when the moves have already been done on ab by the tradder,with the bolt placer assuming that nobody would have the guts to trad them.Sometimes the project is even desecrated by blatant chipping by the bolter,where the tradder has already done the crux without the need for chipping.The other old chestnut is that the routes wouldn't get done if not retrobolted.So trad routes are  bolted and then polished and trashed.Bolt placers often claim they are some knight in shining armour,creating fun routes for the spineless masses.Convenience and safety should not be the only criteria for routes.

       Gary will doubtless carry on churning out routes.He would get more thanks if  he thought in terms of quality,instead of quantity.To his credit,he has recently been a little more responsible re retrobolting.Others have not.

        

 

 

5
 deepsoup 22 May 2018
In reply to paul mitchell:

> Volume of contribution does not excuse shoddy workmanship.

There's shoddy workmanship and then there's shoddy workmanship isn't there?
https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/rocktalk/brilliant_crimpy_slabmillstone-6...

1
 johncook 22 May 2018
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

I was a bit perturbed by this particular set of routes being bolted in and around older trad routes, but having spent a lot of time last year on this buttress I can safely say that it was in a sorry state of neglect and under-use. (In many days of being there I never saw another party on the place!) Maybe the loss of the few routes on the right hand side may now inspire more people (all those shouting on here?) to visit the buttress and then they may notice the wealth of good trad routes remaining. It is a great buttress to climb on! Many trad areas are being neglected/ignored, until someone sticks a few bolts in, and then everyone claims it as their favourite crag.

I don't agree with everything Gary does, but I tend to think that this particular example should not be the one to cause so much upset and debate. There are several excellent lines he could have bolted here but they have been left until some-one with the balls comes and leads them as trad routes.

1
 Jon Greengrass 22 May 2018
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Is it usual for the bolter to ask for permission from the landowner before permanently altering someone else's property? 

 

7
 webbo 22 May 2018
In reply to paul mitchell:

> Regarding the Nick Bullock post,I had a trad route in Chee Dale,Nothing To Help The Poor, ruined by bolts in the subsequent Thatcher Years.

I always knew you were a dopey old fart. It’s in Water Cum Jolly.

 

 paul mitchell 22 May 2018
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Correct,WCJ. As for Millstone,I had no idea there was a route there.Quite o. k with the gear to come out.As we are on that old subject again,Millstone is traditionally a peg created and peg protected crag. Same old ground,new bigots.Bolts will go in anywhere,pegs will not.See Messner and The Murder of the Impossible.There was a tiny amount of scarring from  my pegs.London Wall,White Wall,Coventry Street,Route 3,all old peg routes,and the scars there for ever.Bolt routes  are often criticised by walkers for being unsightly,and some of the jugs that have been hacked out to make sport routes are unsightly indeed. Hi Webbo,I guess you NEVER get anything wrong,do you meeold. What was that article about the old climber who didn't recognise  some old climbing boots?

      Thousands of bolts cause far more damage then a few pegs here and there.

 

 

 

Post edited at 15:28
8
In reply to johncook:

> I don't agree with everything Gary does, but I tend to think that this particular example should not be the one to cause so much upset and debate. There are several excellent lines he could have bolted here but they have been left until some-one with the balls comes and leads them as trad routes.

The reason that it is a good case to use is because it illustrates the approach well without, I acknowledge, being of earth-shattering significance.

There was a poor route - Jugbit - which could have made an excellent direct sport route, and a decent route - Tendonitis - that would probably be better bolted (it was 3 pegs and a thread when first climbed anyway). 

Jugbit has had three bolts added to it but not the 4th to make the job complete. Tendonitis has had 4 bolts but still has a gap. Why stop short of fully retro-bolting these two? They are already terminally compromised by the poor routes that bastardised them.

Alan

2
In reply to Jon Greengrass:

> Is it usual for the bolter to ask for permission from the landowner before permanently altering someone else's property? 

Gary has told me that he did approach the National Trust before doing this. 

Alan

 mike8331 22 May 2018
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

i think you should have spoke to Gary first on this matter and not on here ! he puts in endless hours of his own time cleaning and tidying crags up . I just think its out of order to start a thread on here without speaking to Gary first .

                                                                                          

20
 Paz 22 May 2018

This doesn't just apply to Gary.  It's basically a free for all in the valleys now. 

Anyone who owns a drill is now an expert in how to preserve the character of existing trad routes.

 

3
 Rampikino 22 May 2018
In reply to mike8331:

It feels as though you haven’t read Alan’s comments on this...

 andybirtwistle 22 May 2018
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

My climbing partner and I climbed what were probably second ascents of three of these routes and two on the far left of the main crag,a couple of weeks ago.This was my first visit to Ravens Tor since 1994 and although I have passed it many times I have rarely seen anyone climbing in those intervening years.We thought the two short additions on the far left worthwhile and independent and in no way interfered with existing trad routes nearby.Of the seven mentioned we did three but not the ones mentioned that take in the pre-existing climbs of Jugbit and Tendonitis Sucks,that you highlight.We were of course able to see the new bolts on these routes.

I sent feedback to Gary and mentioned that one route in particular we found a little worrying,not because we pulled holds off but because it had a slightly spooky feel to it with fractured rock.This is nothing new of course as many Peak limestone crags offer the same. I can't comment on the nature of the cleaning,which appears to be an issue,but the ones we did were adequately done and apart from one small piece coming off in my hand which actually made the hold better,we thought they were OK and as Gary often says "will improve with traffic".

The second issue raised here appears to be an ethical one. Were these routes developed with disregard to pre existing ones and were they done to create a maximum number of new lines rather than simply retro bolting pre existing ones? Although I have empathy for your views about this I wonder why a scrappy buttress on a rarely climbed crag in the unpopular upper area of Dovedale has precipitated such an angry response?  Gary has been developing and redeveloping crags and quarries at a prolific rates for years,many of which have had a similar approach.This has not been without question of course but it appears many people have turned out to climb these new and revamped lines and the dissent I've heard has been far far less than the gratitude. Why poke a stick now after he has done over 4500 new routes?

(For those who are unaware Gary does most of this out of his own time and expense and over the years has given countless hours and tens of thousands of pounds in not just putting up new routes but re gearing old ones and he hasn't made a penny out of it as well as advertising them for free on http://www.sportsclimbs.co.uk his website.)

As far as I am aware there is no law prohibiting this apart from trespass in some cases,but in this one I am told permission was sought and given by the National Trust and Natural England and apparently the BMC were aware of his interest in this area and had not objected.

So Alan it appears you are making a stance on behalf of those who may object and because you can, as you do after all own UKC. Now that is all well and good,and you know my views as we exchanged emails,but when you use the word respect you should carefully consider your own position before lashing out. Our view is you could have dealt with this a lot better by contacting Gary and not using your position to place it on a public forum for all to see in order to provoke a reaction.

You acknowledge Gary's contribution but in the next sentence say it is not an attempt to denigrate that effort.Maybe that wasn't the intent but is also not an appropriate response to someone who has given so much to UK climbing and in effect by doing so promoted the Rockfax guides by which you do profit. As you know there is and has been, an ethical debate on some of your publications and methods.Gary is no angel and his climbing career has been controversial ,but concerning the moral compass, maybe it would have been more respectful to allow someone not so heavily involved in climbing publishing to raise any issues? Pots and kettles,glass houses and stone throwing spring to mind.

Let him who has not sinned cast the first stone!

13
 gethin_allen 23 May 2018
In reply to Paz:

> This doesn't just apply to Gary.  It's basically a free for all in the valleys now. 

> Anyone who owns a drill is now an expert in how to preserve the character of existing trad routes.


The same people as those in the Gower probably.

1
 C Witter 23 May 2018
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Personally -

Alan's is an unusual post - because it's from Alan - but it's not rude or an attack, and given Gary Gibson's reputation it's not really a case of Goliath picking on David.

Credit where it's due to Gary.

But, I'm with Bullock - via Walter Bonatti: bolts murder the impossible. They often force lines where no line exists. In the process, they attack the aura that surrounds traditional climbing - irreparably. Once bolts have been installed, this can't really be undone: bolts can be chopped, but the scars still show.

Consequently, destroying existing lines is disrespectful - and shouldn't be done without consultation. Those who do inevitably get more say in what gets done, but that doesn't mean they should ignore measured criticism and collective standards.

 

2
 Fruit 23 May 2018
In reply to colin struthers:

If no further bolts were ever put in it wouldn’t bother me a bit. Retro -bolting is surely disrespectful to first assencionists?

thanks to Alan for opening up this debate 

5
 gravy 23 May 2018
In reply to Fruit:

Please no bolting crap lines just for the sake of it.

Having climbed a number of GG lines put up to achieve the 4000 I can safely say that they were crap.

In the particular cases of the ones I tried, not much has been lost other than the cost of the bolts. However, bolting like this at the cost of existing or future lines is just shit.  GG's obsession is bolting OCD, he's got a strange compulsive tic and he's not going to stop for anyone.  Debolting the worst offences will deter him from pushing the boundaries because it interferes with his ability collect and he clearly values a large number of lines over quality so he'll take his bolting crap lines habit elsewhere.

 

Post edited at 16:25
8
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

The routes were very poorly cleaned - we removed around a dozen holds and bits of loose rock

> Please Gary, take a bit more time, clean the routes better

> Alan

Why is Gary, or anyone else putting up a new route, obliged to clean their route to the standard you decree? They are, as Gary will tell you himself, doing the route for their own satisfaction. Are you paying them for the service they provide? As if.

New routes, especially on limestone, are very labour intensive when it comes to cleaning and it is extremely unlikely that anyone could guarantee that all looseness has been dealt with.

If you don't think Gary's routes have been sufficiently cleaned I think you will find that your local hardware store can furnish you with the tools needed to make a better job yourself.

On you go then.

38
 jezb1 23 May 2018
In reply to colin struthers:

Whilst others may disagree, my opinion is if someone is putting up a new route they should make sure it's in a fit state to be climbed by anyone else.

To me this means showing due diligence the bolts are placed well - glue gone off etc, and that the route is properly cleaned. Of course they can't get every loose bit of rock, but they should do their best.

4
In reply to gravy:

> Please no bolting crap lines just for the sake of it.

> Having climbed a number of GG lines put up to achieve the 4000 I can safely say that they were crap.

Which ones were crap? 

I did 9 of Gary’s routes yesterday and they were all good.

 

6
 jon 25 May 2018
In reply to jezb1:

> Whilst others may disagree, my opinion is if someone is putting up a new route they should make sure it's in a fit state to be climbed by anyone else.

> To me this means showing due diligence the bolts are placed well - glue gone off etc, and that the route is properly cleaned. Of course they can't get every loose bit of rock, but they should do their best.


I do agree absolutely with this. But remember, you can't polish a turd.

 Goucho 25 May 2018
In reply to colin struthers:

> There are many climbers who would agree that Gary has done more to give pleasure to other climbers than anyone else in the sport.

Really?

Gary doesn't climb new routes based on some benevolent altruism, he does them because he is obsessed with putting up new routes, for the sake of putting up new routes. It's all about volume. I wouldn't be surprised if he's got the Guiness Book of Records on speed dial.

And as far as quality goes, well if you climb the number of new routes he has, the law of averages dictates that some good ones and the odd classic is bound to slip through the net.

But let's be honest, the majority of them are at best pointless (a new route purely for the sake of claiming a new route) and at worst, utter crap.

However, irrespective of this, if you are going to single-handedly shore up Hilti's share price, by drilling more holes in UK rock than a gang of Victorian slate miners on acid, you absolutely do have a responsibility to ensure that those bolts are placed correctly.

 

8
In reply to Goucho:

I'd like to defend Gary a bit here. It is certainly true that not all his routes are classics, but many of them are on bits of rock that are never going to produce classics and that is why they have been left undeveloped by previous climbers. Gary has put the effort in on these neglected bits of rock and many of them provide popular routes on crags that would see no attention if they weren't bolted. To judge all his routes based on this is simply unfair.

There are many areas with brilliant trad routes he has put up. I mentioned Pembroke earlier and routes like Souls (E6 6b) and Orange Robe Burning (E6 6b) are two highlights of my climbing career.

My objection is where the new routes compromised the existing routes - that is all. I think people should be a bit more careful about slinging criticism so freely towards someone who has unquestionably developed a lot of routes that people enjoy, where no-one else has put the effort in.

Alan

 

1
 Mick Ward 25 May 2018
In reply to Goucho:

> Gary doesn't climb new routes based on some benevolent altruism...

Err, would this be the same benevolent altruism practised by such luminaries as Whillans, Crew, Livesey, etc?  Whether people get pleasure out of new routes depends on their perceived quality, not necessarily the motivation of the FA.

If we had a rough altruism continuum, say from 10 (totally doing FAs for others) to 0 (couldn't give a shit about anyone else), perhaps the only proof that one is acting at 10 is cleaning (and bolting, if need be) stuff and 'giving it away' to others. I know people who do this but it's uncommon.

Gary would certainly agree with you that he is obsessed with new routing. As it happens, he also spends a heck of a lot of time re-equipping and cleaning crags which have fallen into disrepair. He did this at Raven Tor (Dovedale) and, before that, Beeston. I've had good times at these crags and I'm sure you have too. It would be great if they regain popularity through Gary's efforts but surely those efforts (at least) are 100% altruistic?  No kudos in cleaning/re-equipping, that's for sure! Just bloody hard work. When Gary was sorting out Beeston, last winter, it was bitterly cold. I was working outside in temperate Dorset and it nearly finished me off.  OK, Gary's younger, but he's not that much younger. Turning out at first light, getting on an ab rope and finishing in the dusk, day in and day out, well, not many will do that. Limestone crags, freeze/thaw, loose blocks... you, of all people, will know how scary that can be. Gary's had some horrendous near misses as have others such as Gordin Jenkin and Martin Crocker. It's a dangerous old game.

Gary's done about 4,500 FAs. If we apply a (very rough) rule of three, there are probably about 1,500 pretty good to absolutely outstanding ones, 1,500 that are well worth doing and maybe 1,500 which  won't have queues. In terms of volume of routes in popular areas, I'd suggest that Colin's assertion is probably spot on. Whichever way you look at it, Gary's routes give a great deal of pleasure to a great many people. In a similar way, Chris Craggs' writing (magazine articles/guidebook work, etc) have enabled untold numbers of climbers to have great days out at the crag. (Would we have even gone as far as Spain if he hadn't popularised it in the first place?) 

Common denominators to Gary and Chris' efforts - unbelievable dedication and loads of bloody hard work!

Mick

P.S. Sorry for banging on at length - got carried away.

 Goucho 25 May 2018
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

> I'd like to defend Gary a bit here. It is certainly true that not all his routes are classics, but many of them are on bits of rock that are never going to produce classics and that is why they have been left undeveloped by previous climbers. Gary has put the effort in on these neglected bits of rock and many of them provide popular routes on crags that would see no attention if they weren't bolted. To judge all his routes based on this is simply unfair.

> There are many areas with brilliant trad routes he has put up. I mentioned Pembroke earlier and routes like Souls (E6 6b) and Orange Robe Burning (E6 6b) are two highlights of my climbing career.

> My objection is where the new routes compromised the existing routes - that is all. I think people should be a bit more careful about slinging criticism so freely towards someone who has unquestionably developed a lot of routes that people enjoy, where no-one else has put the effort in.

> Alan

The irony meter just exploded.

8
In reply to Goucho:

> The irony meter just exploded.

In which case, you really haven’t been paying attention.

Alan

1
 andybirtwistle 01 Jun 2018
In reply to Mick Ward:

Well said Mick


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