UKH

Some friends of my brother in law's are interested in starting climbing and hoping to get to the point of being an independent climbing pair. The difficulty is that she is epileptic and so we are discussing safe ways of belaying as an epileptic. 

Are there any epileptic climbers on here? How do you manage the risks? 

Our best thought is using an assisted braking device she could tie knots in the tail rope as the climber climbs. It's a faff, but should be fairly safe. However, for a newbie learning to belay from scratch can be awkward anyway so adding in more steps like this seems like a lot to take in at the start.

Any better suggestions?

Assuming she'd be using a grigri or similar and a generous thickness of rope, I'd be more worried about her welfare than about the welfare of the person climbing. If there were nobody else around it could be very hard for the climber to get down to help, and I have no idea whether, in trying to get down to do so, a weighted rope might pull her into a worse position.

A Grigri with a plastic cover over the screw gate krab is a fail safe solution providing the belayer lets go as soon as an attack begins. As John Arran says, this assumes that help is at hand to recover the stranded climber.

Having very close knowledge of an epileptic person, I wouldn't let them within a million miles of belaying someone. Fancy bits of kit or whatever.

There are various forms of epilepsy, which manifest themselves to various degrees. 

A starting point would be to establish how well managed or under control their seizures are. A good gauge is whether they are permitted to drive, which is not allowed if you’re actively having seizures. 

I’d argue if they are permitted to drive, then they should be fit to belay. 

If they’re actively having seizures and want to be part of an independent pair, I’d be concerned about the safety of them both in the advent of one occurring whilst someone was leading, irrespective of what kit back up you have. 

Coming round from a grand mal can be incredibly confusing, often painful and not ideal if you’ve got another person on the end of a rope!

Hope that helps, but I’m sure you’ll get some better advice on here. 

As a rider, I have temporal lobe epilepsy, which is under control and I’d be fine to belay. 

That makes a lot of sense.  

That is a good point. I don't know the answer to this, but a good question to ask.

Yes, fair point. Maybe less of a risk indoors? Could maybe start with indoor top roping (with backup) and see how that all works out before going more remote or any leading

Thanks for your insight

I would say that this depends on the person and the severity of their epilepsy.

I climb with someone who is epileptic, and am happy in all situations but they haven't had a seizure in over a year and are cleared by the DVLA for driving.

I have climbed with them whilst they weren't able to drive due to having had a day seizure, but I was very confident that the reason for that seizure was no longer an issue, if I had any concerns I don't think I would be happy with them belaying me, the risks for both them and me would be too great.

Whilst I kind of see yours and John’s point about using a GriGri to help manage the risk... 

 “A Grigri with a plastic cover over the screw gate krab is a fail safe solution providing the belayer lets go as soon as an attack begins.”

...this statement is absolutely not the case. 

At no point should we be relying on a break assisted device to be doing the work of a locking or fall a rest device - even if you do use it personally in this manner, it sends the wrong message and is a demonstration of poor practice. 

As John and you mention, even if it does work, it leaves the climber in a awful situation if the climbers are alone.

As the next poster mentioned, there are fits and there are fits - some grand mal seizures can be incredibly violent, the risk of injury to the belayer and the chance of inadvertently unlocking the loaded grigri without control of the dead rope would be far to high.

—-

DVLA comment is good - if someone can drive they should be able to belay!

More helpful though would probably be to ask the person themselves - how much notice do they get before a seizure? Even if only 30secs, then with an aware climber a lower to the floor should be manageable (maybe not on trad routes!).

If less than this, having an aware third person around to take control of the lower if required would probably be the best solution.

if no notice, and the seizures are not in any way predictable, then the reality is probably that a third person who can competently tail the belay at all time is probably the safest solution.

Could maybe use a ground anchor with an inertial reel device on it to act as a "third" tailing the belay?

Crikey that's a bit strong. Fortunately there's not much chance of me ever belaying you.

The same way you manage any other risk. I do use a GriGri when belaying indoors or sport but that is more due to convenience rather than any real assessment of the likelihood of me having a seizure during a belay, which I estimate to be near zero.

Of course there is a finite risk of me having a seizure while belaying or climbing, but I estimate it to be far less than the risk of gear failure, rockfall or my belayer being stoned, drunk or susceptible to sudden heart failure. 

Of course, there are many varieties of epilepsy, some more serious than others. However, as the DVLA considers me fit to control a two tonne vehicle traveling at 70mph, so climbing or belaying is not really much of an issue.

Except it isn't.  If a climber "peels off" the wall slowly, a Grigri may not lock up.  They are brake assist devices, not automatic brake devices, it can't be relied on that they will lock up.

I'd suggest realistically for the safety of everyone you are going to need to climb in a three, really, certainly if seizures are frequent and random (a lot of epileptics get a decent warning which would be enough to get someone down).

That is a pretty good comparison, as the level of responsibility is similar.

I would agree, if you are fit to drive, you are fit to belay.  Equally if you are not fit to drive, you are probably not fit to belay unless someone is tailing.

That may be so, but it is not for me to make that determination for someone else. When I climb  with someone I trust them to assess any risks that may affect their safety and mine, which includes any health issues. I am not going to start demanding a doctor's note and a driving license from prospective partners, and I wouldn't climb with someone who expected such from me.

My ex-wife used to suffer grand mal seizures but we still climbed a fair amount on the basis that she'd get reasonable warning and there'd be tell-tale signs I could pick up on (usually it was brought on by tiredness) - not sure there's a one-size fits all solution.

Any evidence for that? In my experience, particularly with a well-used rope, the problem is feeding the rope through a Grigri and stopping it jamming. Anyone falling off, however slowly, will very quickly cause a Grigri to lock (it's gravity and friction innit). That said, I have witnessed an accident in which an inexperienced belayer held a Grigri open so my use of the word 'fail safe' might have been unwise. An attentive third party would be required.

It's not gravity and friction that cause a GriGri to lock. The shock of the fall engages the camming mechanism. When a fall starts slowly that shock isn't there and a GriGri can let the rope accelerate to full speed without locking.

Having a hand on the break rope mitigates against this because the rope not being allowed to run puts an upwards force on the cam and engages it. That upwards force on the cam isn't there if the rope is running freely and accelerating slowly.

(Sorry for going off-topic, but this is an important point to be aware of.)

Mehmet

Hmm, interesting! I've noticed that if you use a grigri on a new, slippy, thin rope (and some single ropes are almost as thin as half ropes) it has a disconcerting tendency to slip through the device. However, if you use a well-used full width rope - especially a furry one! - the device will lock when you don't want it to, and certainly with the jolt provided by a fainting belayer (providing he/she lets go of the device, of course). In other words, I wouldn't bet my house on it!

Mehmet is correct - it is basically the same in how it behaves to a seat belt ratchet mechanism, and as such you need a shock load to guarantee it to lock up.  Next time you're at the wall give it a go if you have a willing partner - hold the dead rope with a small loop of slack and ask your climber to jump off (it'll likely lock) then slowly peel off (it may well not do).

Certainly a Grigri will improve your chances with a belayer who may for whatever reason let go (and that's one benefit of them - they provide additional security against possible human error), but it cannot be relied upon to catch you.

The biggest issues you get with Grigris relate to people not understanding how they work and assuming they will lock up for any fall - that and cack-handed lowering.

Belaying is a mutual agreement, so I'd consider it quite wrong if I was someone with a medical condition that was likely to cause me to pass out randomly if I didn't explain that to any potential climber and ensure they were accepting of the risk, personally.

I would certainly be quite happy to answer the question of whether I had a medical condition that could cause something like that from a nervous climber, personally.  The answer is I don't, but if I did I would still be happy to discuss it with them.

Well the keyword here is "likely", and who makes that determination. I am happy to trust a climbing partner to make that determination for themselves without the need to inform me of their medical history.

I would have thought that a great way would be for them to join a club  

This would mean they could start by being in the three, and also learn anything they might need to know re self rescue, different belay devices etc. and get to grips with the true result risks and their willingness to take them.

My wife once passed out when I was leading a route in the Verdon gorge. Much fun was had solving that one. 

You may find this general article on epilepsy in the mountains useful:

 https://www.thebmc.co.uk/epilepsy-and-mountaineering?s=2

it is on the BMS website under medical aspect of climbing and although not all of it is relevant to your friend it does outline general guidance.

David H

Well described - the load on the dead rope is the key factor in getting the cam to engage.

Whilst other posters have mentioned that the cam on a GriGgi (or possibly other brake assisted device) MAY engage to prevent the climber being dropped, the reality with a fitting belayer is not whether the device functions or not, but whether the device is prevented from functioning (for example by pressing it between your body and the floor) combined with no longer being able to control the dead rope in the hand. 

Really good to hear some real life experiences from some posters - thank you for sharing. 

When it comes to if a grigri will lock off with an unconscious belayer, surely the way to think about this is the same as we deal with all the other risks in climbing: the gear might fail, the snow slope slide, rocks might hit you, the rope might get cut, the second might pass out or be knocked unconscious. All have happened. Most happen each year. In this light a grigri-type device offers a backup which like everything else in climbing is not 100% guaranteed. But 1:100 (unconscious) x 1:100 (grigri trapped or no weight on strand, due to unconscious second)= 1:10,000 which is a lot, lot better than 1:100.

Hi Mehmet and Neil,

Whilst I fully agree a gri-gri is a hands on device your understanding of how they work is a little off the mark. 

A gri-gri's locking mechanism works by having tension in the live rope.  This tension produces a force on the live rope acting upwards where the live rope exits the gri-gri.  As the location of this is offset from the gri-gri's pivot point, this produces a torque causing the locking mechanism to rotate and pinch the rope.

This tension is produced firstly by the climber producing a force upwards on the live rope, either by weighting the rope, pulling through slack to clip, or even climbing above their last bolt with an unattentive-belayer. 

The force acting downwards in the tension mainly comes from frictional forces experienced by the rope making a couple of tight radius turns upon entering and exiting the gri-gri. This generates friction as described by the capstan equation and is the same method of generating friction by all belay devices and this works in a static (rope not moving) and dynamic environment.  This downwards force should be further supplemented by holding the rope below the device, which firstly adds more tension but also makes sure the rope is making enough tight radius turns to generate enough friction.

From my experience of using one (and I haven't used every gri-gri on every rope so there may be some super slick ropes out there) a gri-gri will engage as long as the dead rope feeds into the gri-gri from below, i.e. the dead rope is dangling or held below the gri-gri. The friction generated from the rope bending is more than enough to lock it - but then again I have a first gen gri-gri and it may be different on newer models.

Incidentally, you can defeat the locking mechanism by raising your hand on the dead rope above the device and feeding rope in whilst pulling on the live rope, which is a useful method to pay out slack whilst belaying lead climbing.

Mehmet - You can easily demonstrate there is no need for shock loading by gently pulling up (no need for yanking) on a live rope in a gri-gri and it should engage.  If your rope is fat and furry, you may not even need to hold the dead end - a new, skinny, slick rope may need assistance by holding the dead end from below.

Neil - a seat belt uses a ratchet like mechanism with a spring providing the centripetal force needed to stop two series of teeth engaging with each other.  If the belt is pulled too quick, the spring cannot provide enough tension to stop the teeth engaging.  This I think, is most similar to a Revo belay device rather than a gri-gri.

Whatever belay device you use, your belayer should be attentive and is ultimately responsible for managing the rope to keep you as safe as possible. 

Cheers

Chris

Hi Chris,

I always thought inertia had a role in locking a grigri? So the tension in the dead rope was in part provided by the need to accelerate the dead rope.

Hi David,

Interia is defined by the reluctanance of a body to change its velocity and normally we say an object has interia if it is moving relative to us. Changing that interia requires an unbalanced external force, in the case of falling that comes from an objects weight, causing it to accelerate downwards. The rope then redirects that force to act upwards on us and the belay device. In the case of catching a falling climber you need to provide an downwards force on the rope to deceleration them.

But it doesn't matter how that upwards force is generated. It could be by a arresting a falling climber or someone pulling on the rope in a reasonably static manner. The gri-gri is designed in such a way that unless you have the slickest of ropes, with the dead rope hanging below the device the torque from the frictional force of the rope running around the tight turns is greater than the torque from the spring and hence the device will lock. But to ensure that happens you should hold the dead rope down to ensure enough friction amd provide a small amount of extra tension.

Next time you use a gri-gri try pulling a small amount of rope from the live end in an upwards direction in a gentle manner You can apply the smallest of tension on the dead rope (or none at all on a thick fury rope) and it will lock up instantly.

Cheers

Chris

I think that is what I'm saying. I can pull a whole load of thin, slick, rope through a grigri if I keep the speed very, very steady. However, if I jerk the live rope then it will always lock. I had assumed that a fast traveling but constant velocity rope adds no more tension than a more slowly travelling rope, but if the rope is accelerating, inertia adds a force resisting the acceleration and it is this that overrides the spring.