E4 stepping stones

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 dinodinosaur 29 Apr 2020

Boredom has gotten the better of me again... I've just been browsing guidebooks and looking at amazing routes and found myself looking at routes a bit above my payscale. 

I suppose I'm just looking for suggestions of hard E3 or soft E4 to start breaking into the grade. (not immediately after lockdown, but as I get back into the trad swing again and feel psyched for a challenge) 

Ideally single pitch and well protected but most importantly I'd like the routes themselves to be good (no point in doing a crappy route for the sake of it).

Looking in the North Wales, pembers, Peak lime and Lakes. Not really into grit as a style so pushing my grade in that style seems silly. 

 Jon Stewart 29 Apr 2020
In reply to dinodinosaur:

Rhoscolyn is a good crag at that grade. The E3s are great (not particularly hard for the grade) then there's a bunch of E4s which I've not done but I'm pretty sure The Viper (E4 5c) is a bit of a soft touch, and Godzilla (E4 6a) the next step up with more after that.

Round at Gogarth there's Strike (E4 6a) which is mid E3 IMO, but sometimes given E4 so if that's what you're after...

Chee Tor is also a good place (but will be proper wild after lockdown!). Loads of great E3s, I never got passed the mid-E3s but there's one notorious E3 and another tough one Splintered Perspex (E3 6a) before you get to E4. Not a place for soft touch E4s as far as I know.

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In reply to dinodinosaur:

Go and do loads of classic E3. You'll stumble across what you're after along the way. Done Prana yet? No? go do Prana. (not saying it's hard E3, just that YOU STLIL HAVEN'T DONE PRANA)

Have you even done The Butcher yet? I'll not tell you again. Go and do the bloody Butcher to warm up, then while you're there do Poisoned Arrow. That's about what you're asking for.

Go to New Mills and do Electric Circus then Bionics Wall. Then nip round to Hobby and do Raindrop.

Certain Surprise at Split Rock would be right up your street. Within striking distance for a day trip if you're super keen.

Give me a shout and we'll go do the stuff we talked about on Gogarth.

Or like I keep saying, go to Ness and headpoint a load of E5 to recalibrate your confidence.

Post edited at 18:41
 Jeff Ingman 29 Apr 2020
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

Try Flakey Wall at High Tor, I was told it was bottom end E4 which may be true - but I still found it desperate! It's well protected and HT is steep so relatively safe if things go wrong. BTW I've done the E3's at HT except for Lauren, and Flakey Wall is definitely harder than all of them. Hope you enjoy it..... Jeff

1
 Lankyman 29 Apr 2020
In reply to dinodinosaur:

If you're interested in top notch E3 on limestone then Malham is very good. Midnight Cowboy, Mulatto Wall stand out for me over 30 years later. There are lots more. One E4 I never got on was Limehill which looks stunning with the crux right up at the top.

 Robert Durran 29 Apr 2020
In reply to dinodinosaur:

Surely Pembroke is the place to go.

 overdrawnboy 29 Apr 2020
In reply to dinodinosaur:

Get solid on the E3s in the Lakes and you'll be sound for most Welsh E4s

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 DaveHK 29 Apr 2020
In reply to dinodinosaur:

A long weekend at Reiff is what you need.

 LJH 29 Apr 2020
In reply to Jeff Ingman:

Not sure I would call flakey entry E4, think your been sandbagged..😂.

 DaveHK 29 Apr 2020
In reply to Lankyman:

> If you're interested in top notch E3 on limestone then Malham is very good. Midnight Cowboy, Mulatto Wall stand out for me over 30 years later. There are lots more. One E4 I never got on was Limehill which looks stunning with the crux right up at the top.

I reckon being solid on Yorkshire limestone E3 would qualify you for many a mountain E4.

1
 Jon Stewart 29 Apr 2020
In reply to DaveHK:

> A long weekend at Reiff is what you need.

...if you want to come back feeling king o'the world, only to get immediately spanked on an average E2.

deleted user 29 Apr 2020
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

Nice Electric circus mention. Uber classic, E2 or e3? Dont know why it isn't debated more than three pebble. 

 DaveHK 29 Apr 2020
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> ...if you want to come back feeling king o'the world, only to get immediately spanked on an average E2.

Exactly. Unless you can capitalise on the confidence!

Post edited at 21:45
 mark s 29 Apr 2020
In reply to dinodinosaur:

I did a crack in the slate quarry called mau mau. Its e4 and cant remember it being tough. Was safe also. 

In reply to SamSimpson:

I think it sits well at E3. I can see why people would say it's E2 but I think that says more about the climber than the route. Remember it's East of Manc, not at Wilton. If it was moved 20 miles NW I'd be on your side.

In reply to SamSimpson:

Actually that's not quite fair; It's about as hard as Max, and Wilton Wall. So yeah, E3.

Edit: Just clocked you're a local. So it's definitely E2 for you.

Post edited at 21:52
 Lankyman 29 Apr 2020
In reply to DaveHK:

> I reckon being solid on Yorkshire limestone E3 would qualify you for many a mountain E4.


Hmm ... That wasn't my experience. I really liked limestone and did lots of Yorkshire E3's. I found E3 in the Lakes a different proposition altogether. Lime to me was more in line in scale and style with the Lancs quarries I started out on. To me, on Lakes routes in general, the long walk in took time away from the actual climbing and so detracted from the overall enjoyment. Plus, a mountain route would often have fairly pedestrian pitches. With outcrops it was full on from the start.

deleted user 29 Apr 2020
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

Yer I thought it was the scariest thing I had ever done when i first did it so might as been e5. 

Now I do it regularly and enjoy it.I spend a disproportionate time there so might as well be hvs...jokes. I am usually pretty terrible for gauging grades so unknowingly modest or arrogant. Or knowingly clueless..anyway e4s..

Mau Mau is nice and safe. Sugar cane Country I thought was brilliant too up on Pabbay.. Bionics wall at new Mills too

Post edited at 23:54
deleted user 30 Apr 2020
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

On a night shift and severely bored hence the ridiculous time. 

Funny how I mention Electic Circus. But didn't bring up the Butcher. The ultimate E2.5

Definitely felt the full E3 when I did it!  

OP dinodinosaur 30 Apr 2020
In reply to dinodinosaur:

Cheers for all the replies! Getting psyched, I already had a few on the list like

The Viper (E4 5c)

Godzilla (E4 6a)

Bloody Sunday (E4 6a)

Break On Through (E4 5c)

Grand Alliance (E4 6a) I've heard isn't much harder than prana 

I'm not sure flaky wall is a good early E4 from what I've heard haha, I feel a sandbag here

Post edited at 08:03
 AJM 30 Apr 2020
In reply to dinodinosaur:

> Grand Alliance (E4 6a) I've heard isn't much harder than prana

I did them at the same time, both very good, GA isn't a hard E4 (from my limited sample) but I recall the crux feeling a bit more committing in part because I don't think my belayer could see me so was maybe a bit less aware of what I was up to.

The other ones that I did in the areas specified that I assume were fairly reasonable were Weasels Rip My Flesh (E4 6a) and Penny (Katana) (E4 6a).

In reply to SamSimpson:

Bionics was my first E4. Kind of why I mentioned it. And I did it straight after Electric Circus.

Break on Through is E4 like the Butcher is E3. It loses a grade as soon as you're looking down it not up it.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Chee Tor is also a good place (but will be proper wild after lockdown!). Loads of great E3s, I never got passed the mid-E3s but there's one notorious E3 and another tough one Splintered Perspex (E3 6a) before you get to E4. Not a place for soft touch E4s as far as I know.

Certainly a good E3 mileage day to be had at Chee Tor. Tbh, if you can climb any/all of them the chances are that you're probably going well - particularly if you manage to onsight either Splintered Perspex or Queer Street! 

You'll have seen it before Jon, but for anyone who hasn't here's the destination article which features the a ticklist of 6 x E3s: https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/destinations/chee_tor-9373

Post edited at 09:16
deleted user 30 Apr 2020
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Looking forward to get back there.

In reply to dinodinosaur:

In North Wales, if you're looking to push your way into E4 on mountain rock then the two best E3s to climb (in my opinion) would be Stroll On (E3 6a) and Foil (E3 6a). Another two that are utterly brilliant, but in a different style, would be Sacred Idol (E4 6a) and Pulsar (E3 6a). These are without doubt two of the finest single pitch routes in the Pass, but hardly get done compared to the others.

At Gogarth, your options are a lot more limited due to the multi-pitch nature, but (as others have suggested) Strike (E4 6a) is a good option as a 'baby E4'. Aside from that you've got things like Winking Crack (E3 5c), but that may/may not be what you're after. Rhoscolyn (as Jon suggested) is fantastic for the grades you're looking for, with Centrefold (E3 5c) being the best of E3s (it's no pushover either, so great training for the E4s). The Viper (E4 5c), The Trail of Tears (E4 6a) and Godzilla (E4 6a) are all unforgettable, although I think the latter is my favourite.

Finally the Lakes. If it's single pitch E3s you're after then there's only one place to go: Reecastle. Guillotine (E3 5c), White Noise (E3 5c) and Thumbscrew (E3 5c) are all amazing. I wouldn't say any of them are particularly hard for the grade, but if you can get them all done in a day it'll show you're going well. Prana (E3 5c) is so good it made it onto my Top 5 E3s article and is realistically quite high in the grade. Grand Alliance (E4 6a) is only a bit harder (potentially a little cruxier?), so worth getting on if you found Prana alright.

Sure there's around 6000 other recommendations I could give, particularly in Pembroke, but will leave you there for now as I should probably do some work

Good luck!

In reply to SamSimpson:

Me too, although it's going to be a steep learning curve getting back into it. I haven't climbed since January due to the whole ruptured appendix/peritonitis/sepsis thing and suspect it's going to feel a bit more difficult than it once did!!

deleted user 30 Apr 2020
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Sounds grim. Glad you're well. Hopefully all this will end sooner than later. Always keen for rocking over on Dandelions.

deleted user 30 Apr 2020
In reply to dinodinosaur:

There is Prozac link too on Lewis which I would say (although very committing) is a good stepping stone E4. Nothing too hard and totally amazing climbing on otherworldly holds and terrain. Magnificent. 

In reply to SamSimpson:

> There is Prozac link too on Lewis which I would say (although very committing) is a good stepping stone E4. Nothing too hard and totally amazing climbing on otherworldly holds and terrain. Magnificent. 

That route alone is reason enough to climb E4.

 Wainers44 30 Apr 2020
In reply to dinodinosaur:

Misunderstood the title.  I thought you wanted...

Tarr Steps (diff)

Plym Steps (v diff)

Stannon Steps (HVS)

Manga Rails (sport 4b)

Cullever Steps (E1)

But you don't mean actual stepping stones I guess.... 

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 Coel Hellier 30 Apr 2020
In reply to dinodinosaur:

If you like slate slabs:

Watch Me Wallaby Wank, Frank (E4 6a)  (one pretty hard move right by a bolt, steady otherwise).

Remain in Light (E4 6a)  (seemed mid-E3 or so to me).

That exhausts my set of slate E4 onsights.

 Robert Durran 30 Apr 2020
In reply to SamSimpson:

> There is Prozac link too on Lewis which I would say (although very committing) is a good stepping stone E4. Nothing too hard and totally amazing climbing on otherworldly holds and terrain. Magnificent. 

The brand new edition of Gary latter's guide has downgraded it to E3. I'd always understood it was E3 climbing but was given E4 because of the position and commitment (if you can't do the last crux pitch for some reason, it is going to be very problematical (abseil into the sea and swim?!). Not done it (seems hard to get the right conditions despite several visits) but right at the top of my list.

Edit: Oh God, now I've got myself dreaming of the Hebrides again................

Post edited at 10:41
 Robert Durran 30 Apr 2020
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

>  Grand Alliance (E4 6a) is only a bit harder (potentially a little cruxier?), so worth getting on if you found Prana alright.

Really? I though Grand Alliance was pretty full on and much goier (is that a word?) compared with Prana!

 Robert Durran 30 Apr 2020
In reply to DaveHK:

> A long weekend at Reiff is what you need.

While there is a good collection of soft E3's at Reiff, I'm not convinced that the same is true at E4 - not enough to fill a long weekend anyway, especially if you accept Gary Latter's downgrades. In fact there are some pretty brutal or bold ones.

Edit: Oh God, now I've got myself dreaming of Reiff again............

Post edited at 11:02
In reply to Robert Durran:

Guess it all comes down to the day you did it doesn't it. I'm always amazed at the variation of people's experience on routes. 

 phil64 30 Apr 2020
In reply to dinodinosaur

Before you start pushing grades, I think you have to be honest with yourself with what you can climb easily on any given day. I.e in the Peak could you cruise E2? I.e If you went to Millstone & Lawrencefield would Regent Street  &  Billy Whiz be a cruise or fill you with dread? If they were a cruise then you could try Coventry Street and then High Plains Drifter. If you found them desperate then its back to musing on UKC forums about what ifs....

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 tmawer 30 Apr 2020
In reply to dinodinosaur:

How about Tumble on Dow, Powerglide on Hard Knott, Limited Edition at Hodge, and One Step Beyond at Gouther, for some Lakes routes.

 Coel Hellier 30 Apr 2020
In reply to phil64:

> I.e in the Peak could you cruise E2? I.e If you went to Millstone & Lawrencefield would Regent Street  &  Billy Whiz be a cruise

There's a difference between cruising E2 and cruising Billy Whizz. 

 Larefia 30 Apr 2020
In reply to Wainers44:

Stepping stones is only f4+ so he's never getting to E4 by that route

 phil64 30 Apr 2020
In reply to Coel Hellier:

Agreed, but IMHO if you can cruise Billy Whiz then hard E3 and soft E4 should be within reach. For all the routes mentioned in the post so far then Ive always had a route in mind as a yardstick to measure whether or not they were attainable. Having done nearly every route mentioned in the OP (with the exception of Chee Tor & Pabbay) I.e when I  found Prana straightforward then I knew Grand Alliance was on. Maybe rather than highlighting specific routes at the cusp of the grade then what I have found useful is to have a solid base at one level before graduating to the next. 

OP dinodinosaur 30 Apr 2020
In reply to phil64:

Since I can't go out climbing, musing is what I'm doing! I'm very honest with myself and where I'm at in my climbing and aware of what it takes to "push the grade".

OP dinodinosaur 30 Apr 2020
In reply to phil64:

I completely agree in getting a solid pyramid of routes to support the jump, but for me it's easier mentally for me to get on a route knowing that it's only a small step up from before and I'm not sandbagging myself or putting myself in unnecessary danger. Hence the musings of stepping stone routes 

In reply to dinodinosaur:

It may sound obvious, but the key to climbing a given route/grade is to get on the given route/grade in question. It's all too easy to put these things off, especially if you're anything like me and your upon arriving at the crag turns from "I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it" to 101 reasons not to do it. Ironically things always seem to feel better the moment you actually step off the ground and onto the rock, because you're dealing with something real - not imagined.

Also, whist I'm not advocating taking dangerous lobs onto margin gear, falling - if done in the right way, at the right time - isn't the end of the world. I remember when I first branched out onto the big E5s on Gogarth Main Cliff my aim was to onsight them, but if I didn't I'd just lower off, pull the ropes, then go for the ground-up ascent, which totally took the pressure off. They're all well protected so danger isn't a huge issue, it's just a case of doing them in the style that works for you and that you find fun.

Clearly if you'd find this approach harrowing I wouldn't recommend it at all, but it certainly worked for me. There's plenty of routes in the world and you don't have to onsight all of them

OP dinodinosaur 30 Apr 2020
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Cheers for the advice! I'm guilty of wanting to wait to be sure I can get the onsight or putting off amazing looking routes I want to do mostly because of fear of failure but I've been working hard to change that!

I feel it's a balance of having enough experience to know what you're getting on and not hurt yourself but having the guts to try something you might fail on.

In reply to dinodinosaur:

Pick some to fail on. Sure, save the 3* ones, but this is why I keep suggesting stuff in the grit quarries or RP funtime at Ness. You're where I'm at; you're not seconding your mates on stuff that's miles harder than you climb any more. It's toprope time for you.

1
Le Sapeur 30 Apr 2020
In reply to dinodinosaur:

Take a drive to Glen Nevis (in the future) and you can tick both of your boxes. Edgehog. When I first climbed this route it was E4. It's now E3. So if you buy and old guidebook on Ebay you can tick it as an E4. Buy a new guidebook and it's E3. Either way it's a great route. Ed Grindley's best.

 Misha 30 Apr 2020
In reply to dinodinosaur:

As a general rule, E4 6a is a good grade as usually it won't be run out on the hard bits. Of course it could have run out sections of 5b but if you're looking at E4 you should be solid on 5b so that shouldn't be a big deal. Could have some bold 5c but it would be rare for this to be on the very bold / dangerous side, if you ignore grit routes. Having said that, 'ok gear' on an E4 could equate to 'a bit bold' for an E1 leader, if you see what I mean. Some suggestions:

Chee Tor - loads of E3s and E4, none of them are soft for the grade but the gear is usually ok.

High Tor - the E3s aren't easy and some are on the bold side but not to be missed if you're happy at the grade. Flaky Wall is the classic E4 and is great except that if you stuff the low crux you end up taking a long swinging fall which is not great; the upper crux is well protected though.

Arms Race - Avon. The ultimate stamina sapping but well protected route. Have to go for it a bit at the top but the fall is fine - I've tested it! There's a good E3 6a next to it as well - Them.

Fay - Lower Sharpnose. A bit bold but that bit is high up and it's a good example of a 'just go for it' crux. Generally sustained and good fitness pays off. Break on Through is meant to be soft but I've not done it myself.

Gogarth - if you enjoy a traditional tussle, try Camel. Graduation Ceremony is fine on P1 and pretty hard on P2 but the gear is ok. Somehow I've not yet done Strike but it's a minor classic at the E3/4 boundary and looks well protected.

Tremadog - not everyone's favourite crag but loads of hard, technical and well protected routes. Void and Venom at E3; Cream and Vulcan at E4 (not done Vulture but meant to be good). Cream is actually quite reasonable and arguably only E3.

The Pass - Resurrection but you might want to save that one as it's fairly hard, though nothing desperate, especially with the left hand finish.

Pembroke - most of the classics are ok for gear, some are harder than others but generally not as desperate as the Peak lime testpieces!

Bosigran - Dream/Liberator is amazing, hard E3. I lobbed off the crux and it was ok; apparently a gear placement has since been dug out just below the crux. Kafoozalem I thought was ok at hard E3 but lots of people find it nails - either way, the gear is decent. Raven Wall next door is great at tough E3.

The Amnesty Wall routes at Lizard are fairly soft.

Swanage is the home of steep, burly and reasonably well protected. The 2 and 3 star routes are generally good but avoid anything less popular if you're pushing the grade as the rock may well be dubious.

Lakes - isn't everything nails in the Lakes?

 Misha 30 Apr 2020
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Exactly. Once you get to E4, only the very gifted will be able to progress without lobbing off now and then. The rest of us mere mortals will have some routes which we might save for when we're going well because we want the onsight but most relatively safe routes will be in the 'give it a go' category. Falling off isn't (just) failure, it's a learning point, as long as the fall is safe. If someone is looking at E4s, they should be able to place good gear and judge whether a fall would be safe. If not sure, don't do it of course.

 bensilvestre 30 Apr 2020
In reply to dinodinosaur:

The two e3s at Clogwyn Gafr in the pass are worth a look at. Get e4 in some places. Fantastic quiet crag, ultra classic routes on perfect rock. I find it surprising that they're not more popular. They're some of the best in the pass

In reply to Misha:

This has given me an idea for a thread...

 phil64 01 May 2020
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

> This has given me an idea for a thread...

Is the idea: Which is it better to climb a route that's hard ,or one that is easy for the grade?  

In reply to phil64:

> Is the idea: Which is it better to climb a route that's hard ,or one that is easy for the grade?  

Lest any of us forget: soft for the grade is the best grade...

Life is hard enough 

Post edited at 15:47
 dominic o 01 May 2020
In reply to dinodinosaur:

I was getting psyched for the hard E3 to E4 transition a few years ago, and wrote the following article about the mental battle involved: https://doughton.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/secret-words-getting-psyched-f...

It features ascents of 

Prana (E3 5c) 

Star Wars (E4 5c)

...and The Axe (E4 6a)

but I think the importance of self-talk is the same across the board - hopefully a fun bit of lock-down reading.

Cheers, Dom

 Enty 01 May 2020
In reply to dinodinosaur:

I've only skimmed this thread but surely Resurrection? The doing it bit at the top is actually off vertical. Found it very straight forward. I've done many harder E3s in Lancashire and Yorkshire.

E

1
 Robert Durran 01 May 2020
In reply to dominic o:

Star Wars was the first E3 I onsighted (I'd failed on a couple earlier) when it was given E3 (this was 1984), so I don't think it can be too hard for E4.

 Si dH 01 May 2020
In reply to dinodinosaur:

I once did an E3 5c called Crazy Horse ib Dovedale. It was cruxy but seemed ok to me at the time.

I've never led something I thought was E4 but, looking at the logbooks, that has now been upgraded. So it might be a good Peak Lime option for you!

Also, although it's not a classic in itself, it's next to a couple of very good E1s and not too far from Adjudicator wall, which is one of the best and hardest E3s around.

(if anyone here has done Crazy Horse I'd be interested in whether you think it is really worth E4...) 

In reply to dominic o:

Good writing and nice article Dom.

 George_Surf 01 May 2020
In reply to dinodinosaur:

if youre in north Wales, tremdog is brilliant at e4 and regularly sunny when everywhere else Is rained off, that and a short approach and 'cragging' style.

e3; silly arete is mega, venom is very hard but safe on sinker small wires. geirgeagle is good and you can have a look at vulture.

e4; a mega grade here - cardiac arete (bit bold but safe by the hard bits), fingerlicker (quite hard going but pretty safe), spare rib (very varied! safe where its hard, bold where its not so hard), Vulcan (safe, technical corner), void (amazing, quite hard, super safe), cream (good entry level especially if youre fit, totally safe and the hard bit doesn't last long, id say e3), vulture (mega pumpy, safe, hard!)

the good news here is that all the e4s except the aretes are really safe on obvious bomber gear, the climbing is varied and often strenuous/technical. get to it

2
 Jon Stewart 02 May 2020
In reply to Misha:

> Bosigran - Dream/Liberator is amazing, hard E3. I lobbed off the crux and it was ok; apparently a gear placement has since been dug out just below the crux. Kafoozalem I thought was ok at hard E3 but lots of people find it nails - either way, the gear is decent. Raven Wall next door is great at tough E3.

Those route are *so* hard. I am especially shit at Cornish granite, but even so... 

> Lakes - isn't everything nails in the Lakes?

Not everything. Reecastle has been mentioned and the e3s there are fine and safe. Kind of like a clean Chee tor with grippy rock in a beautiful open setting. Raven Crag, Threshthwaite Cove has good e3s, GTX (E3 6a) is fine, I haven't done the e4s, but a good crag at that grade if clean and not birdy.

The lakes has actually got a classic soft touch e4, One Step Beyond (E4 6a) which is brilliant but not really what the OP is after (although the crux has a peg top-rope, that's the last gear and it's a long way to the top). Most lakes e4s do look pretty grim to me though, there's not generally too many clean, popular, well protected classics. North Wales or Pembroke it ain't. 

1
 Misha 02 May 2020
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Will have to check out some of those Lakes suggestions one day. At E4, I thought Gates of Delirium at Raven Thirlmere was excellent but certainly not soft touch. Grand Alliance I though was quite reasonable but I seconded the crux pitch. Prana was steady, just a bit bold.

 dominic o 02 May 2020
In reply to mountain.martin:

> Good writing and nice article Dom.

Thanks Martin  

More musings here from Big Walling to Rock Around The World

https://rockaroundtheworld.co.uk/articles/

Cheers, Dom 

1
 LJH 02 May 2020
In reply to Si dH:

No don't think it's e4, it's still E3 in BMC peak south. Adjudicator wall probably harder and still E3.

My only thoughts on dove dale is a lot of threads are gone or need replacing, that also goes for pegs too.. 

Gladiator on ilam rocks e4 6a and has a old peg. We either need to start replacing pegs or change the grade's. However this is another thread....

 Rick Graham 02 May 2020
In reply to Misha:

> Will have to check out some of those Lakes suggestions one day. At E4, I thought Gates of Delirium at Raven Thirlmere was excellent but certainly not soft touch. Grand Alliance I though was quite reasonable but I seconded the crux pitch. Prana was steady, just a bit bold.

Missed the rock / wallnut 1 on the crux of prana then

Progression E4 list for the lakes.

Nagasaki , lots of 5b moves but only one hard (well protected )and one bold move ( subtle  runners , if you have the wherewithall ).

Powerglide, bold to start but again protect able if you search left right and centre, then pumpy with gear . Harder E2 and E3s if you have a bit of nounce.

Marble staircase. Trick runner on crux but not needed at soft for the grade, otherwise barely E3.

Running on empty and boy racer. Respectively hard with gear at your face or just above good gear.

 gazhbo 02 May 2020
In reply to Enty:

I think resurrection is about right at the grade but it’s a good suggestion if your gear placement is sound.  There are a lot of E4s that are technically easier though!

 Thomasstewart 02 May 2020
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Climbed Prozac Link last year on first trip to Lewis. Out of this world, best route I have done for years and Lewis is amazing...

 Exile 02 May 2020
In reply to Jon Stewart: One Step Beyond - when you know the peg is sawn off (it is) and you fall from high up (I did) it doesn't feel quite so soft.

Post edited at 20:32
 justdoit 02 May 2020
In reply to dinodinosaur:

Plumbline (E3 5c) is a real good test.

 Jon Stewart 02 May 2020
In reply to Rick Graham:

> Nagasaki , lots of 5b moves but only one hard (well protected )and one bold move ( subtle  runners , if you have the wherewithall ).

Interesting choice? Isn't this generally regarded as impractical without a lot of effort cleaning (which someone went to in the last year or so I believe, but that's by the by now).

> Marble staircase. Trick runner on crux but not needed at soft for the grade, otherwise barely E3.

Good call! Seconded this and it was very reasonable indeed. Iron is an easy crag to forget, it's good for introductory E2s as well as the hard stuff.

 Jon Stewart 02 May 2020
In reply to Exile:

> One Step Beyond - when you know the peg is sawn off (it is) and you fall from high up (I did) it doesn't feel quite so soft.

You're not supposed to fall off from there.

In reply to dinodinosaur:

I remember Tremadog E4's felt quite hard at the time or simply I was unsuited to them, maybe Cream was OK, but a lot of them involved featureless feet up slim grooves and finger jamming of sorts.

 The pocketed nature of the Chromlech was far more forgiving for me.

I seem to remember Capital punishment on Idwal excellent, I cant remember much about the gear but don't remember it being dangerous or even scary. 

Stoney E4's were very polished, although I remember bitter fingers not being that bad.

I found Oliver very hard at Stoney, maybe the hum of the transformer affected me.

At High Tor, I found flaky wall harder than Tales of yankee power, in particular the undercut moves on Flaky wall. Lyme Cryme was desperate, I seem to remember, when I was breaking into E3's.

Lots of really good and safe E3´s at Chee Tor by the way

Have fun

In reply to justdoit:

> Plumbline (E3 5c) is a real good test.

That's reminded me of all the other good ones along Pen Trwyn. Solid Gold, Pocket City and Klondyke are all punch for E3 and, like some of the others mentioned here, almost a sure-fire way of guaranteeing you can probably lead E4!

In reply to Dago theruinmargalef:

> I remember Tremadog E4's felt quite hard at the time or simply I was unsuited to them, maybe Cream was OK, but a lot of them involved featureless feet up slim grooves and finger jamming of sorts.

You're not alone here, they're all desperate! Vulture is hard, Void is harder still, Zukator is off the scale, and Vulcan could well be one of the best onsights of my life (even though it only got E3 at the time). Cream is by far and away the easiest.

> I seem to remember Capital punishment on Idwal excellent, I cant remember much about the gear but don't remember it being dangerous or even scary. 

I agree regarding it being excellent, but not about the rest as I thought it was pretty scary. From what I recall you can fiddle in a load of gear but none of it individually is all that inspiring. I was one of the people petitioning for it to get E4 in the Ogwen guide, because at the time I think the authors were just getting feedback from the E9 wads who all said it was E3 (and maybe it is if you can climb E9!). Regardless of all that it's one of my all-time favourite routes and it really made an impression on me at the time. Also fits perfectly into the hard E3/easy E4 bracket we're after here.

> Stoney E4's were very polished, although I remember bitter fingers not being that bad.

You must have been on form that day, I've always found it desperate!

 Philb1950 03 May 2020
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Tremadog E4s are technical, where strength isn’t everything, but usually very well protected and for that reason good to push the grade. (Beta,  Zukator back and foot). 

Capital Punishment; agree not well protected and you never seem to be getting far from the ground as it slopes up in line with the route. 

Bitter Fingers; dozens of easier E5,s

 Alex Riley 03 May 2020
In reply to Philb1950:

Fingerlicker at tremadog is good too and not that hard.

 Exile 03 May 2020
In reply to Jon Stewart:

You're not supposed to fall off from there is what I was telling myself for most of the journey down the slab. 

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Thanks for the reply, you may find that in the early  90's, except in a couple of chalk dust choked cellars, we mortals used to train mainly on vertical walls, like Crew flats, or that desperate sandstone block wall under the Sheffield Hallam accommodation place (Collegiate Crescent?). Didn't have a real climbing wall in Sheffield and hitched out to Glossop to go on that tiny bendcrete wall. Until the day the Foundry opened (I remember that day well, a day of extreme happiness, a place full of wonder). So we probably excelled on vertical rather than steep. Now its probably quite the opposite. So bitterfingers having good gear in the crack and perhaps a peg? (if I remember correctly), not extremely polished (in the Wee Doris or Pickpocket way) and being vertical might have felt easier to me than Our Father, which I almost fell off from and never repeated. One thing is very clear in my mind, Oliver felt like the hardest route I've done in the peak, remember hanging on for an hour trying to fit shit wires on the crux and finally committing without the reassurance and totally pumped.

When I did Capital punishment in 1989, I seem to remember it was graded E4, but I did think it tested me less than Resurrection, but then again Resurrection was my first E4.

I am one of those that likes to upgrade routes, and as I got older its got worse (I suggested giving everything below 7a in Margalef a grade extra as a rule of thumb). 

Cheers

 justdoit 03 May 2020
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

very true I actually forgot about all of those as well. im sure the ultimate test on the orme for e3 would be Gritstone Gorilla (E3 5c), never done it myself but belayed someone else, does not look easy!!

 Robert Durran 03 May 2020
In reply to Dago theruinmargalef:

> When I did Capital punishment in 1989, I seem to remember it was graded E4, but I did think it tested me less than Resurrection, but then again Resurrection was my first E4.

I did these both in the same week in 1984 as some of my first ever E4's. I was much bolder then than I am now but not as fit and strong (that's modern walls for you). Nevertheless I remember finding it really hard to commit to the runout bit on Capital Punishment. On Resurrection I did the left hand finish and I don't think I've ever been so pumped without falling off running it out to the top! Has modern protection tamed Capital Punishment a bit?

 wynaptomos 03 May 2020
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

> That's reminded me of all the other good ones along Pen Trwyn. Solid Gold, Pocket City and Klondyke are all punch for E3 and, like some of the others mentioned here, almost a sure-fire way of guaranteeing you can probably lead E4!

Totally agree. The only time I was regularly leading E4 in other areas was when I was also doing many, many E3s at Pen Trwyn.

 193 03 May 2020
In reply to dinodinosaur:

Just posted a picture of E4 stepping stones , but don't think its what you meant

 Misha 03 May 2020
In reply to justdoit:

Gritstone Gorilla is a good one, hard E3 but the crux is quite short lived. I had a fall on the crux and was really annoyed because I hadn’t failed to onsight an E3 5c for years but my excuse (reason?) was that I was already tired from doing a bunch of sport routes that day. 

 Misha 03 May 2020
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

From my log for Capital Punishment:

“Technical but not strenuous and not that hard for 5c but sustained and requires focus. The gearless slab to get to the gear is E3 5b, do not fall! Relieved to find a good cam in an undercut pocket round the arete, also had an ok number 1 nut and a poor friend there - on the whole, a good cluster of gear to protect the moves to the thread. Mild E3 5c for that bit.”

Then above the thread it’s fine. Benchmark bold E3.

Now Suspended Sentence looks like a much more serious proposition, with harder climbing and no apparent gear for a while.

Penal Servitude is very good, lots of gear but most of it is so-so, mostly not that hard but some 5c moves towards the top. My log concludes with ‘good for the trad soul’, enough said!

 Mick Ward 03 May 2020
In reply to Misha:

> Penal Servitude is very good, lots of gear but most of it is so-so, mostly not that hard but some 5c moves towards the top. My log concludes with ‘good for the trad soul’, enough said!

'Good for the trad soul.' Wonderful!

In years to come, in extremis, I will hear this in my mind. Part of me will gurgle with delight, while another part of me will be shuddering...

Thank you.

Mick

 Misha 03 May 2020
In reply to Mick Ward:

Yes, that’s about the right mix of emotions!

In reply to Misha:

> Then above the thread it’s fine. Benchmark bold E3.

I guess it suits your strengths? Voting seems to be in keeping with the opinion that it's soft E4 and given the levels of boldness I'd prefer for it to be something that is one grade up and soft. The ground really does track up alongside you and a fall from almost any point would be highly undesirable.

> Now Suspended Sentence looks like a much more serious proposition, with harder climbing and no apparent gear for a while.

Oddly I don't remember it being all that bad, but I did it at a time when I was cruising E5 and loved bold/open (and generally easy) climbing. When I did Capital Punishment I was at a much more precise point in terms of grade, having only done a few E4s - hence I remember the experience much more clearly.

> Penal Servitude is very good, lots of gear but most of it is so-so, mostly not that hard but some 5c moves towards the top. My log concludes with ‘good for the trad soul’, enough said!

Agreed, it's an absolutely excellent route.


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