UKH

I climbed Debauchery earlier in the week, and found the rising traverse on Pitch 2 (shortly after the belay) very hard (and quite bold) for E1 5b.

I also found that section hard, when I lead it early last year, but put it down to early season rustiness. 

Does anyone know if a hold and/or runner has come of this section?

At the moment I would say the second pitch is more like low E2 5c. That said Peak limestone grades are hard.

Be interested to hear other people’s thoughts. 

Is there really a difference between a hard E1 & a soft E2?

Haven't done the route for a while but that wall seems to have an intimidation factor which can add a grade. 

When I did it about 17 years ago, there was no peg there and the line was not obvious. As you say, quite bold. The way I went definitely felt 5c at the crux, and the whole route bottom-end E2.

I got slightly wigged on that pitch but put it down to dithering about where the route went (I think I went too high up the crack before doing a traverse? Was it a downwards traverse?). When I figured out where I was going I think it was fine at E1. Pretty steady and not pumpy so you have time to get your bearings.

A long while since I did this but the grade at the time didn't seem unreasonable. My log notes that I took a long time on the hardest moves.

Of course it's possible that a hold has come off but I reckon the problem is this... you're too good a climber.

That rising traverse can be done in a number of ways using different sequences of holds.

If you're a good climber you find a sequence that works, climb across and go, blimey that's hard for E1 5b, closer to E2 5c.

If you're an E1 5b climber you fumble about until you find the only sequence that works at E1 5b, climb across and go, that took me ages to sort out.

I remember thinking this pitch was hard for HVS, certainly.

jcm

I think you've probably hit the nail on the head. I was climbing quite well then and almost certainly didn't find the exact easiest way. As you say, it's not immediately obvious.

If I remember correctly it was HVS 5a,5b in the pale blue Derwent Valley (grit+lime) guide which was probably the current definitive when I did it.

But I'd possibly also seen the pre publication draft of Peak Limestone south, which has it at E1 5b,5b.

P2 is the crux and can seem hard compared to P1 which is probably only HVS. Seem to recall there are a few tricky moves soon after the belay ledge. Can’t remember about pegs but possible there was one thereabouts. Then easy to go off route on the traverse as others have said. 

HVS on a scale which gave Darius E1.  

By contemporary standards in keeping with Peak trad. limestone it’s E1, assuming you find the path of least resistance at the start of pitch 2.  

Did this last year and quite a few times before.

Do you mean within 2 or 3 m of the belay? - where you climb diagonally up left (passing the Robert Brown p2 crack - think an unclipable peg in there) . This can / does feel quite hard.

You then move horizontally left and slighly down to a crack where there should be a big chunky peg (this is where Lyme Cryme pitch 2 joins). The next moves (up) are (for me) the normal crux - and lead to a second peg which is easy to miss (about half way along second pitch at this point).

 I'll hopefully get round to doing this again soon and see if anything has changed, but (at the time) the grade of E1 5b felt fair. 

Steve