UKH

Whats with all these continentals thinking they can take over a route or routes by leaving ropes& draws in place and then wandering off to have lunch or play with the kids.On recent trips to Kalymnos i have had to wait in line to do a route until the whole family have had a go and then get permission to go on it.On one occasion they left their draws in place and disappeared to another sector so climbed on my gear and stripped theirs.Has anyone got thoughts on what is the DONE THING or should i just tell them to fxxx off when they have finished their lead.

Whilst I can see that this might be irritating I don't think it's particularly unreasonable. Why do you think you should take priority over a group who are already on a route?

Get up and get to the crag earlier? Climb a different route? Ask people whether they mind you nipping up on their gear or pulling their rope?

Perhaps speak to them, rather than people on a forum when you get home 😉

In all seriousness though, once the draws are in, anyone can use them but it's still polite to ask. 

Telling them to F off probably isn't a great start. 

As above, it's only fair that they all have their go if they were there before you. Regardless of whether they are leading it or not.

Probably OK to have a go while they're having lunch, just ask. 

Tell them to fu##k themselves they dont own the route or the rock. 

It belongs to everyone to enjoy

way too much of this sort of thing 

try speaking very loudly while pointing vigorously 

Aye, at most crags I've been to, the "done thing" would be to ask to have a try while the party that placed the draws was present.  If they were not accommodating and wanted to climb the route continuously , I would personally go elsewhere. But, if they left the area, irrespective of any permission granted, climbing on their draws would be reasonable (trickier decision if a rope was left in that you had to pull).  If people felt that leaving draws in exclusively reserved a route, then there would be punch-ups every weekend at Malham and Kilnsey!

I think people have different interpretations of what happened.  Was it:

1) there was a continuous stream of people in a particular group climbing a route, and you didn't get the chance to climb it.

2) someone had left draws and/or rope on a route when they weren't climbing it.  They spent time elsewhere and the route was empty of climbers.

Which was it?

I can guarantee that once you clarify then everyone will  be 100% agreed on the correct course of action....

(Maybe  😁😜😄)

Also don't forget to speak in English, in ever increasing volume, in case they're foreign.

Multiple trips and the same family are there again climbing a route you want to do... what are the odds

Is it the Warburton family?

So why not let them enjoy it. There's another 3,500 routes to go at.

Warby

I would have pulled their ropes through once they went for lunch / playtime and got on with with the climb, if they moaned you should have given them some Manc / Tans advice 👊

ps , that’s why I don’t sports climb 

Maybe it was the person who bolted it in the first place?

Did father of the family sneak up pre dawn to lay out the beach towels below the route, if so, perfectly legal. We're you caught napping enjoying your hard breakfast? 

It is behaviour like this that has made us take back control.

6/10,you drew a few in. 

I'd never monopolise any route (including ones I've bolted). Often I see people on routes I've bolted and would quite like to do again. Hey, they were there first. As I don't like queues, I'll just go somewhere else. There's always somewhere else.

Mick

Why don't you start charging for people to climb your routes? Maybe just a little honesty box? 😂

Just because a route has been bolted doesn't give you more right to climb it than anyone else!  

I was under the impression it was both. The first followed by the latter.

I assumed/hoped he was joking!

I think this is now a very common issue that requires a bit of diplomacy from both sides, and dare I say that elusive thing called common sense. 

Nearly all my experiences of sharing routes with other parties has been good, and has often led to making new friends or learning something about the route, shared beta etc. 

As always there are exceptions and dealing with selfish people at a crag detracts from the enjoyment of climbing. 

Quick draws left up is fine. Rope left up and not being used is not. 

My personal bugbear is when I'm at a deserted crag I put draws up a route which is not a classic of the crag. Another party then jumps on the route only because it has draws in place when every other route is free, queuing at a virtually deserted crag seems ridiculous to me. 

Well no that is a ridiculous idea. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

But maybe you could have a ticket system or maybe someone could develop an App so people could pre book the route?

Never go back. "A problem solved is a problem no more".

It doesn't.  Brits and Germans really don't have a claim on Greek real estate.

So the family in question own the land? Or do you just think there is an understanding that foreigners should wait? Do you seriously think it has anything to do with the nationality of the people involved?

Thanks for all the advice and comments, having climbed all over europe in the last 30 years

the point i was trying to make was that in my experience some continentals do have the mind set

that they are on the route and no matter how long it takes for the whole family to have a go thats ok.

I have never experienced British climbers having the same mind set.

Yes i could go and climb elsewhere but one specific example was 4 adults & 4 children all intending to climb  the route  with the rope  left in place.I was watching their antics and the game plan seemed to be-- mum and dad have a go then little jimmy jumps on and treats it like a day out at Alton Towers swinging all over the place then realising its too hard for him,then little sister ties in and does the same.2 hours later after they have had lunch a chat and a few family squabbles they pull the rope and go.Meanwhile joe bloggs and partner have done 6 routes and not hogged any of them in the time that family punters have been on their route.

It's hard to judge either party without having been there to witness, but perhaps consider another perspective: its pretty tricky climbing as a parent. They're just making the best of their options for climbing as a family. I'm sure they'd absolutely love to have the freedom of 'joe blogs and partner', cruising around the crag without a care in the world. But they can't, they're trying to make climbing a family activity. They've already chosen the area, crag, sector and route based on their particular needs as a family, and moving on to another route is actually a massive logistical faff. Whereas 'joe' could just do another route and come back later, couldn't he?

A little understanding goes a long way. 

As an aside, this is pretty much how Ondra started climbing. Going to the crag as a family, swinging about on the rope between his parents and sibling's goes on a route.

It sounds to me like the family are having a good day out. Who is to say their approach is any less valid than anyone else's?  It could be argued that by confining themselves to one route they are minimising their impact on other climbers.  Unless it was a classic route then there are plenty of others to choose from, no one has a right to a route if someone else is there first.

Continental climbers do have a different mind set, and different ideas of crag ettiquette.  This is perhaps something which doesn't get sufficiently addressed.  We shouldn't expect everyone to share British ideas (and we argue enough between ourselves), and perhaps when we travel we should pay more attention to how others do things. In leaving their gear on the route they might have fully expected that someone else might make use of it while they were away, and would be suprised that anyone would make a big deal about it.  

A pleasing simplicity!

Mick

Totally agree with all your points, Dan. As a (very) rough generalism, I suspect that the harder the routes are, the more likely people are going to have a crag etiquette which is either cross-cultural or fairly easily 'translates'.

Certainly my experience is that the harder the crag, the more likely one is to encounter considerate behaviour - and, most definitely, the converse. (This perhaps bodes ill for my remaining climbing days!)

Mick

I think this boils down to a couple of annoying points really: 

#1 leaving you’re rope up (at the top or through the first draw) and then wandering off to go and do other routes, thereby ‘saving’ the line. 
#2 I also agree that it’s really annoying when you equip a non-popular route, only to have everyone suddenly want to have a go because the clips are in. 
 

Pretty basic though, start off by asking them if you can have a go whilst they aren’t. 95% they’ll be fine with it. I’d also offer to leave the rope how you found it. You basically can’t argue with this.
 

If there’s no one  manning the lone rope I’d pull it down. I wouldn’t expect to have a 1hr go, dogging the route to death. Either a good onsight or a quick bolt to bolt? Just don’t take the p*ss. If they come back, make a good effort to finish, lower off, brush the holds and put their rope back. No harm done right. Normally make friends and share some info on the route! 

All of that sounds like totally reasonable behaviour. I'm really confused as to why you think you've got more right to be on the route than their kids? Especially given they were there first. Find a different route! 

Yes that is ok.  It's family orientated sport climbing as just a.n.other sport

You're not in Britain and the ethic to this is very different.  C'est la vie

Why is there a different etiquette betwen sport and trad climbing?

What do you mean? We’re not talking about trad here; when was the last time you climbed up, placed a cam and a wire, then returned to floor to untie and either go climb something else or disappear for some lunch.... stanage can get busy enough as it is!!! 

You've explained how the etiquette is different.

I was asking why.

It’s not. would you think it alright if someone turned up at a crag, climbed to the first bit of gear, climbed down and untied and then left for an hour? Honestly if someone did that at say the Cromlech on a weekend people would wonder what was going on?! 
 

equally, people/groups etc top roping a line alllll day is also generally considered bad practice (if others want a go). What’s the difference?

Because in Trad, you tend to climb routes that you have a chance of getting up first time, you know, so you don't end up in hospital. Sport climbing you tend to climb things that are just a little too hard to climb first time as you'll be OK if you blow it. Obviously this isn't always the case but it is fairly normal. 

It's not the normality of repeatedly trying to crack the moves on a route that I'm questioning: it's the notion that you can walk away for an hour leaving your gear in situ to the exclusion of other crag users and have this considered normal etiquette on a crag.

Trad is British, we like to queue. Sport is foreign, they don't.

We've absorbed our own climbing culture over maybe years, from mixture of example, education from more experienced climbers and from publications, and from endless discussions on UKC, which mainly show that there is far from unanimous agreement. And then we go abroad for a week, often unable to speak the language, with none of that preparation and no real knowledge of the local climbing culture,  and criticise their behaviour because it isn't what we'd expect at home. I think a bit more humility and self-awareness is called for.

If behaviour is better at the harder crags this may be because top end climbers may spend more time with their continental counterparts and develop a mutual understanding. 

Corrected that for you - you are welcome

(not delving further into any "continental mind-set" debate).

I’m not sure what you mean, like the person above I think you’re missing the point? Queuing is fine, everyone’s happy to do that, this isn’t what the OP is talking about...

Perhaps you're just assuming it's to the exclusion of other crag users.  Since this behaviour seems fairly commonplace in some areas it is likely that there is also an common understanding among local climbers how to deal with it.  This might be, "of course you can jump on the route when we're not using it, why would you even ask?". Or it might indeed be "first comers have exclusive use", in which case you have to accept that is indeed the normal ettiquette at that crag, and either live with it or go elsewhere.

I'd intended that to be tongue in cheek.

That's a pretty wild extrapolation from a simple disagreement that a crag on a Greek Island "belongs to everybody".

Speak for yourself.

Your use of the term "real estate" seemed to imply that the crag was someone's private property.

A MUKGA strategy? Make UK great again? At least in the climbing community this may be bound to fail.

As mentioned - 3500 other routes waiting, and if you need to do exactly this one, return next day. I've never had troubles communicating with others at the crag in Kaly, and if you want to place stress on others' way of climbing you are kindly invited to do so at your local crag. 

Unintended 

Is it? Kalymnos is in Greece - the rules may be rather different.  That point is obviously 'bleedin' obvious' but is apparently worth reinforcing

So you reckon Greeks and Turks don't have a claim on British real estate?  (whatever that means)  Or does this just work one way for you?

What are you on about ? Any visiting climber to any country does not have an automatic right to climb or impose their ethics there.

Brits or Germans in Greece, Turks or Russians in the UK. 

I agree that nobody has the right to leave a rope on the route during a lunch break and expect others not to climb it, I dont care where in the world I am, if someone does that and I want to climb the route i would pull the rope.  There are lots of people here seemingly sticking up for the family but haven't addressed this point,  are some people ok with this?

Where i strongly disagree with you is with your idea that the poor stlye (Top rope /dogging)  somehow makes them less entitled to climb the route.  I also am quite sympathetic to large groups hogging a route for several hours/ all day, as long as it is getting climbed.

The difficulty arises in those areas where it seems to be common practice to leave ropes up, and where presumably there is a local understanding whether it is then OK to climb them if they are unattended.  So by all means pull the rope and climb it, but be aware that it might not be seen as acceptable behaviour. This is certainly the case in parts of France in my experience, although I'm unsure whether that is accepted local etiquette or just guides throwing their weight about.

"Also don't forget to speak in English, in ever increasing volume, in case they're foreign."

I also like to gradually morph into using some strange amalgamated "foreign" accent combining the best of Italian, Spanish and French with a few made up German sounding compound words thrown in for clarity.

Seriously though I've never had a problem in many years of continental sport climbing  and simply a friendly chat with the owners or just removing (and usually replacing) the rope is usually fine. 

There's much more of a problem in the UK with badly behaved organised groups making like it is ok "own" a route, usually as a result of an inconsiderate instructor but this is, thankfully, quite rare.

I'm also perfectly happy to equip a route as part of a day out and let all climb on my gear and I'll take it down without argument if requested.

Mind you - a couple of weeks ago I was held up by a trad pair not climbing a route Froggatt but insisting they were about to start. The reality was they chewed the fat, then one after another all went for a trip to the bushes, then had another lengthy chat, then racked up, then unracked and went for another wee, then racked up again, another chat and then put thier shoes on, and then lead the climb <extremely> slowly.

From the time we arrived and established they were "about to climb" it took them over an hour to leave the ground. From the exasperated demeanour of the other parties around this had clearly been going on for some time before we arrived. Busy crag, short days, scare dry weather, please talk after you climb.

So in summary....

Just talk to people nicely....

If they've left their draws in a route 99% of the time people won't mind you using them if you ask them nicely.

If they've left their rope up, ask them if they would mind you pulling and offer to put it back when you're done.  Again, normally fine.

If there's a full family all on a route and they all want to have a go before moving on leave them to it.  If they're taking all day and leaving long breaks between ascents by all means ask if they would mind you giving it a quick burn during one of their breaks.

If they've buggered off to another sector leaving rope or draws in situ and you aren't able to talk to them I'd say it's fair pull the rope, climb through their draws, and put their rope up again.  What they don't know won't hurt them, and they'd have probably have said that was fine if they were round to ask anyway.

Don't know why you would ever need to strip somebody else's draw off a route.  No need.

Thanks for the post.

This has served as a useful aide memoire (as the continentals say) to purchase a hind leg of pork after it has been cured by dry-salting or brining, which may or may not be smoked.

Lob a couple of frag grenades in and just remember: 'They started it'.