Coronavirus - Climbing Outside?

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 Phil79 17 Mar 2020

What are peoples views on climbing outside, given recent developments and need to keep social contact to a minimum?

My own view is I'll be be limiting myself to local crags, and probably largely bouldering on my own. I quite often do this anyhow, as it suits my schedule. 

Also will be training at home, but little choice with that one as most local walls have closed doors for the time being. 

Post edited at 09:56
 Cyrees 17 Mar 2020
In reply to Phil79:

I just talked to a friend in the Department of Health. His view was that exercising outside is okay (that's what the guidance says), but that risk comes from either of the climbing partners being unwell (transmitting) or travel.

Basically - quiet crags, only socialise if you're well and the other person is, take all reasonable precautions, and it's okay in principle. I think...

 neilh 17 Mar 2020
In reply to Cyrees:

In France the public has just basically got a right earful after they decided to congregate on the Siene etc.

If you think that getting in a car and going climbing is " essential" travel, then possibly there is going to have to be a rethink.UK Gov has asked us to stop non-essential travel.

So I am not sure its wise to make these assumptions.

No doubt time will tell.

 Cyrees 17 Mar 2020
In reply to neilh:

Only relaying what I heard when I asked someone very involved in this.

 Paul Sagar 17 Mar 2020
In reply to Phil79:

I was thinking: if I drive on my own (or with gf), stay in the van, take all food with me, only use pay-at-pump petrol stations, and have no interaction with anyone other than my climbing partner, then this isn’t really any different from self isolating at home?

I’ve accepted that there are no more trips to the local indoor wall for the foreseeable future. Outdoor climbing may, however, be the only thing that keeps many of us sane for the next several months?

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 Duncan Bourne 17 Mar 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Basically keep out of everyones way. It is the interactions with people that help to spread it

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 Cyrees 17 Mar 2020
In reply to jonny taylor:

Completely agree. I'm on the fence about this at the minute for all of those reasons and having a long think about whether I'll do it or not.

Have also ordered a TRX, put the hangboard back up, and decided to stop going to gyms. But thought I'd flag the logic behind it from when I asked a friend!

 jon 17 Mar 2020
In reply to Phil79:

Certainly the way it’s viewed in France is that any activity that could end you up in hospital is prohibited. Bouldering falls fairly and squarely into that category. And as an aside, as from 40 minutes from now, we’ll be reduced to essential travel - and that with an accompanying form to detail the nature of that travel!!!

Post edited at 10:21
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Removed User 17 Mar 2020
In reply to jon:

I have just printed a load of forms for our son so that he can walk his dog otherwise it is a €38 fine. Bureaucracy gone mad. Esther Rantzen would be having a field day with this one but it is France.

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 planetmarshall 17 Mar 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Indeed. Just bear in mind it's not so much being at the crag - I was at Stanage yesterday and even at one of the UK's most popular crags it was virtually deserted by Euro sport standards - it's what happens on the way there and back and how many people you have a chance of coming into contact with.

It's also worth bearing in mind the effect on mental health of self isolating for long periods of time.

 Paul Sagar 17 Mar 2020
In reply to planetmarshall:

Indeed. That is why I am thinking I take all food with me as purchased in the one essential big shop per week, and interact with nobody either there or back (other than climbing partner).

also, likely to be sport climbing only, to reduce risk of injury as hospital is the last place anyone should be ending up if at all possible now  

 Toerag 17 Mar 2020
In reply to Phil79:

Bear in mind that it would be deemed irresponsible to partake in an activity that would potentially require the intervention of overstretched emergency services. So toproping or sport only I think. Mountaineering has been pretty much banned in the alps for that reason.

 Rob Parsons 17 Mar 2020
In reply to Toerag:

> ... Mountaineering has been pretty much banned in the alps for that reason.

Is that the case? I can see on-line that ski resorts have been closed, but can't right now find other information.

 GDes 17 Mar 2020
In reply to Toerag:

> Bear in mind that it would be deemed irresponsible to partake in an activity that would potentially require the intervention of overstretched emergency services. So toproping or sport only I think. Mountaineering has been pretty much banned in the alps for that reason.

This.  I think turning up at A and E with a buggered ankle would be pretty selfish at the moment

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OP Phil79 17 Mar 2020
In reply to GDes:

> This.  I think turning up at A and E with a buggered ankle would be pretty selfish at the moment

Yeah that's a fair point. Easy stuff only, or no climbing at all?

Considering we are looking at undefined timescale for this (6 months, 12?) I'm worried about the mental impact if I cant do anything for extended period of time.

Lone runs and dog walks only...?

Post edited at 11:52
 planetmarshall 17 Mar 2020
In reply to Toerag:

> Bear in mind that it would be deemed irresponsible to partake in an activity that would potentially require the intervention of overstretched emergency services.

Well, thing is, that's basically everything. It's a matter of quantifying that risk - I'm not sure if there's any official source of statistics but anecdotally I don't really know many people who have been hospitalised trad climbing (versus, say, winter climbing). Even if it is higher risk it's still a niche activity versus, say, accidents while road cycling or motorcycling which I think I can say with some confidence is much more likely to be occupying beds in ICUs.

 Paul Sagar 17 Mar 2020
In reply to planetmarshall:

After I woke up in hospital post hip-operation and was chatting to the guy in the bed next to me, I decided that, much as I want one, I am never allowed to own a motorbike. He'd been knocked off his motorbike (no fault of his own) by a careless driver: his entire right arm was smashed from shoulder to wrist; shattered pelvis; broken leg; ribs destroyed. Lucky to be alive, and was into week 4 of his catheter (he advised me to get over my post-anaesthetic lack of ability to pee ASAP, or else).

After seeing that, I thought 'nah, not worth it, even if they are cool as hell'.

 mrphilipoldham 17 Mar 2020
In reply to Phil79:

I can see me actually using the Shunt that I bought yonks ago on some harder routes that I wouldn’t yet be ready to lead. Can use it safely on my own, at any crag (and there are plenty) around my way that see handfuls of ascents every year.. many within walking distance. Absolutely no reason I personally can’t improve on my climbing during this period. If the other option is no climbing, then it’s me that I’ll be fearing most, not corona virus. 

 jon 17 Mar 2020
In reply to planetmarshall:

> Well, thing is, that's basically everything. It's a matter of quantifying that risk

I think if you take a step back and look at the tiny world of climbing through the eyes of the authorities/police/general public, Rock climbing, with or without ropes, with or without snow or ice or in any of its guises, is a high risk activity.

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 JHiley 17 Mar 2020
In reply to neilh:

I'm going to tentatively suggest that having everyone stay at home and not socialise with anyone at all for eighteen months (which is the current best guess at the time to produce a vaccine) is not even slightly realistic.

If we're saying no outdoor climbing in pairs. We're basically saying no socialising of any kind. At all. For months. The mental health consequences of this will be pretty dire.

I'm not going to attend any group meets, indoor walls, busy crags, restaurants, pubs etc though until the situation improves.

 planetmarshall 17 Mar 2020
In reply to jon:

> I think if you take a step back and look at the tiny world of climbing through the eyes of the authorities/police/general public, Rock climbing, with or without ropes, with or without snow or ice or in any of its guises, is a high risk activity.

Well, you said it yourself - "tiny world of climbing". Even if it is high risk, it's never going to occupy the 160,000 beds that were occupied by road accidents in 2018.

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OP Phil79 17 Mar 2020
In reply to JHiley:

> If we're saying no outdoor climbing in pairs. We're basically saying no socialising of any kind. At all. For months. The mental health consequences of this will be pretty dire.

Yeah that's also what I'm worried about. Without being too dramatic about it, over the last few years, regular climbing is the one thing that has kept me out of mental health problems.

Small fry when compared to peoples lives, I know, but I'd like to think I can carry on in some form, without being a risk to others.

Post edited at 12:47
 JMarkW 17 Mar 2020
In reply to Phil79:

I like to see a statement from the BMC

 jonny taylor 17 Mar 2020
In reply to planetmarshall:

> Even if it is higher risk it's still a niche activity

There are plenty of valid discussions to be had, but I'm not convinced that's a good argument. If lots of people say that about their own, different higher-risk "niche activity" then the problem remains. Personally, I don't see it as any different to the argument that "I'm only one person, what I do won't make any difference".

 Martin Haworth 17 Mar 2020
In reply to Phil79

I think a lot of people will be bouldering, shunting, or climbing in discrete pairs. However, regardless of how careful you are to isolate yourself, choice of crag, safe route etc., if you do end up requiring hospital treatment due a climbing accident or an accident while travelling to climbing you're going to get abuse for being selfish, irresponsible... I'm not advocating not climbing, just saying be super careful and aware.

I think using climbing walls is no longer acceptable but it will take a few days for the reality to sink in with some people and that is entirely understandable, these are extraordinary times.

Post edited at 13:41
 danm 17 Mar 2020
In reply to JMarkW:

> I like to see a statement from the BMC

We had an emergency meeting today (I attended remotely) at the BMC and guidance is in the pipeline.

Please bear with the team though, we are understandably very stretched right now.

 Dave Garnett 17 Mar 2020
In reply to JMarkW:

> I like to see a statement from the BMC

With all due respect to that august institution, I don’t need a policy statement about how I choose drive for 25 minutes to go for a bit of socially responsible bouldering somewhere quiet or even climbing with a consenting adult.

Indoor climbing, I’d agree is, sadly, a different thing but let’s not turn sensible avoidance of unnecessary close contacts  and crowded walls into puritanical virtue signalling.

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 JMarkW 17 Mar 2020
In reply to Dave Garnett:

well the BMC have made a statement and it exactly the kind of considered response i was hoping for....

especially as i have just lost my job today on the back of corona and have nothing really else going on in my life but climbing.....

cheers

mark

In reply to Phil79:

I've just added an update to the end of Levi's article about climbing outside. He wanted to add a few words since the situation is changing constantly: 

https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2020/03/climbing_wall_use_during_the_covid-...

Alex Messenger, BMC 17 Mar 2020

In reply to 

Here's the latest BMC view:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/should-you-go-climbing-outdoors-and-hill-walking

We'll update it as we know more. 

Alex.

 beefy_legacy 17 Mar 2020
In reply to JMarkW:

Really sorry to hear that mate. Fingers crossed we'll be at the other side of this soon.

 Paul Sagar 17 Mar 2020
In reply to Alex Messenger, BMC:

Thanks Alex, a measured and appropriate set of guidelines. We all need to step up and be responsible and use good judgement. Of course if the government says outdoor activities must stop, that’ll be that, but for now this seems good advice. 

 joem 17 Mar 2020
In reply to Alex Messenger, BMC:

Thanks for this rational proportionate guidance when the worlds going crazy. 
 

BMC showing more leadership than our government.

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In reply to Phil79:

It’s hard to make a fully informed choice about this without better understanding the detailed dynamics of the modelling (which I don’t).

I get that it’s all about massively reducing each individual’s probability of transmission. But is the risk linear? Does reducing that probability (say) from 0.5 to 0.4 have the same impact as from 0.2 to 0.1?

If the benefit diminishes as probability gets lower then the offsetting benefits of safe, solitary outdoor activities may become justifiable with precautions.

But not driving from Edinburgh to Pembroke for a week ☹️

 neilh 17 Mar 2020
In reply to joem:

Well perhaps they have a little less to be concerned about. Their intray of the issues is just a wee bit smaller than the whole country.

Its hardly difficult producing guidance like this as a compared with the NHS etc etc.

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 joem 17 Mar 2020
In reply to neilh:

Just a thought that perhaps the government have a few more resources than the bmc, I’m not expecting the government to produce guidance on climbing a hill walking but they could definitely be doing a lot more than they are to prepare and to communicate to the public. 

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 Rob Parsons 17 Mar 2020
In reply to The Pulsing Motorik of Neu!:

>  But is the risk linear?

No.

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 Michael Hood 17 Mar 2020
In reply to all:

As a comparison, all orienteering events have been cancelled. Although these are organised events, orienteering is basically an individual sport where you're not near anyone (most of the time). It would be fairly easy to introduce some protocols that would virtually cut the transmission risk to zero.

However, the government has to use blanket policies. It can hardly say, this is allowed but that isn't, can you imagine the letters from DM readers.

Climbing outside will very likely get caught by some similar blanket policy even though we can all easily see how to carry on whilst virtually eliminating the viral risk.

 Sandstonier 19 Mar 2020
In reply to Phil79:

Last night thousands of bankers and financiers crammed into the restaurants and bars of Canary Wharf to celebrate their latest government windfall. As long as this state affairs continues no one can really make a strong argument against outdoor cragging in remote locations. 

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 BnB 19 Mar 2020
In reply to Sandstonier:

> Last night thousands of bankers and financiers crammed into the restaurants and bars of Canary Wharf to celebrate their latest government windfall. As long as this state affairs continues no one can really make a strong argument against outdoor cragging in remote locations. 

Evidence? I know tons of financiers and they’re all shitting themselves right now. There is a wipeout in progress and next to no one is making a profit. I’m not aware of anyone celebrating and if they were enjoying a drink socially I reckon it was with a sense that this might be the last one for a long time.

But hey, bash a banker. They probably planted the virus in the first place.

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 Sandstonier 19 Mar 2020
In reply to BnB:

Go and have a look for yerself. Hey Boris understands their need to party he's much of the hedonist himself. Whilst the City cleans up on commissions and bonuses from this latest bailout those poor sods on zero hours contracts etc will be left to find for themselves.Wonder how long they will tolerate that kind of arrangement?

Post edited at 16:10
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 Trangia 19 Mar 2020
In reply to Phil79:

If you are a Member, you should have received the BMC's email letter sent to all BMC Members on this very subject today. Mine arrived this afternoon.

 Philb1950 19 Mar 2020
In reply to Sandstonier:

I live in Peak District. Had to go to Sheffield today. On return noted hordes of boulderers in large groups all along Burbage and  Stanage. Coincidentally I think the Uni,s are now closed. Is this responsible behaviour?

 BnB 19 Mar 2020
In reply to Sandstonier:

I thought not. Thanks for confirming.

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 Sandstonier 19 Mar 2020
In reply to Philb1950:

Is cramming into bars to celebrate a windfall responsible behaviour? I don't see any problems for example those living in the Northern Highlands climbing on isolated crags where no one else is present. Lucky Scots.

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