UKH

Hi all,

I keep seeing references to cordelette, especially for equalising/creating a master/power point between multiple piece trad anchors.

I take a cordelette to be a long length (how long?) of 7mm static cord joined into a loop with a double fisherman's knot.

What's the advantage of this over a 120 or 240cm sling?

Cheers,

Michael

The advantage is: Americans wont argue with you over why you use a sling instead of a cordelette at a belay.. ! 

A Cordelette will usually be longer, meaning you can equalise more pieces of gear or gear that is further apart. You can buy regular slings this length too.

Advantages of one made from cord: It's got a little bit of give, so can absorb some shock on the belay (although you should still treat it as static). It can be tied with a figure 8 on the bight at either end instead of a loop to get a longer useable length with less cord. It can also be cut up and retied to use as abseil anchors.

Personally I very rarely use one in the UK, just occasionally when I'm guiding someone on a multipitch route. Even then I'm more likely to just use slings for the belay, or one of the ropes and then swap ends.

I use a 400cm dyneema sling. It's almost always enough to make a belay on its own. You could argue that it's lighter and stronger than a cordalette made from cord but I don't think there is any meaningful difference that you would notice when you get used to things.

Maybe the stretch in the cord would be better if factor 2ing the belay but I'd argue that if that is one of your main concerns something very dubious and inadvisable is going on!

In reply to mcawle:

Americans love them.  They are useful for powerpoints, multipitch where you swap leads, guiding.

Sings will do the same job, and are lighter, more compact and versatile. Dyneema is much weaker when knotted.

Most people I climb with mainly use rope for the belay. Its dynamic, equalises loads far better, and you have 60m of it.
 

Hah, most important!

Thanks. So you're thinking a 7-8m cord joined to make a 3.5-4m loop right? And so comparable to a 4m sling. What are you using for the cordelette material? Just 7mm accessory cord?

Good point re: fig 8 on a bight option and role as spare tat.

As an aside, do you ever use guide mode when bringing up a second, and if so do you ever do it without a power point (whether sling or cordelette)?

I'm familiar with a method of guide mode using the rope assuming double ropes and a two piece belay (clove hitch one rope to each piece of gear, then overhand knot in both ropes and clip the belay plate into that), but obviously that doesn't work if you need more than two pieces for a solid belay. (I generally just tie into all pieces with the rope and belay from the harness, but experimenting with guide mode a bit.)

Serious question. Why not just use your rope? I suppose if you're leading every pitch then fair enough but if youre on single pitch or swapping leads on multipitch is it not easier to use your rope? 

It is easier to offer a direct belay

Understood, thanks. I see DMM do a 400cm 8mm sling, which looks handy.

Yes understood. I have mainly been using the rope to date as well. Main advantages of the powerpoint I see are (1) ease of getting the second clipped in if climbing with someone newer; (2) ease of guide mode if more than two pieces in the belay.

A 120 would be way too short for anything but a bolted anchor.

7m of 7mm is the norm.

Many think this better than a sling for the following reasons

1. if you are doing alpine, you need a have a bunch of ab tat. Your cordelette is this tat.

2. cheaper

3. in windy conditions a 4m sling is more of a pain to coil up

4. by forming it into a open sling (i.e. leave as one long length with a figure 8 on a bite on each end) you can use it as a closed sling (both 8's on the same carabiner) or open, each end on a different piece (with the obvious reduction in strength). This can be useful when you have 4+ pieces, or if one piece is a long way away.

Yes it's a good point and this has been my practice up to now. Mostly motivated by simplicity with a multipiece belay (especially when second arrives) and potential for guide mode. Do you tend to just belay from the harness?

I have used 7mm, 8mm is usually going to be stronger though. In reality you'll be using multiple strands though. And yes, a 4m loop.

I use guide mode lots when bringing up seconds, both sport and trad routes (multipitch ones, rarely on single pitch). On multipitch I'll usually only use one rope to equalise the belay, using it like a cordelette. If you clove hitch the first runner (with slack so you can move) then you have an isolated central point to attach the belay plate and yourself.

As I said, I rarely use a cordelette because I find the other, lighter options on my harness much better to use. That might be different if I'm climbing as a 3 or hauling a bag.

Understood. Thanks. I like the fig 8 on a bight option, especially noting your point about joining them into a loop with a carabiner.

How do you tend to carry it on your harness? I haven't carried a sling longer than 240cm before and just twist it up on the carabiner. 

And would you carry one and the second carry one too, on assumption you'd potentially want one for each belay on multipitch?

Thanks - can you please elaborate on this point? I can't visualise it. Say you're at a belay and have got 2-3 pieces of gear in. How would you use the rope to equalise and for guide mode?

(Understood your other points, thanks.)

I think the system Wil describes is:

You clove hitch yourself to a piece of gear (A1) with plenty of slack, then add more gear (A2 and A3). You are only attached to A1, but isolated from the system you are about to create.

You take the live rope and run it through crabs on A2 and A3, drawing all the rope together here into a "big f*cking knot", which is the "master point" at which the system is equalised. Ideally, you would tie a knot which gives two or three loops. You need to make sure to close off the system on A3, probably by incorporating the live rope (running from A3 to your second) into your BFK, or else with a clove hitch or other appropriate knot.

You now have a big double V shape of rope, which is a closed off system with several loops for attaching yourself, guideplate and seconds to, in an equalised manner. The big advantage of this system over normal systems incorporating a rope, is that you can very easily escape the system, whilst leaving everything more or less in place.

Hope that's clear and helpful.

Made one from 5m of 7mm, so once knotted is about 240cm- sometimes use a 240cm sling which is lighter less bulky. Mostly use 60cm slings as extendable runners, then couple 120cms- one of these naturally extends the range.

Useful in certain situations- around big blocks- for equalising/extending gear. 

Also if leading all the pitches its useful to be able to equalise the belay without the rope.

Yes, that's right.

The question I have, thinking about it, is how do you lead off again, after using this system?

Do you just build this system so you can use your guide plate despite distant anchors, bring up your second(s), attach them directly to the anchors, then dismantle the initial set-up so you can flake the ropes and lead off? Or do you swap rope ends?

I would swap rope ends. I'd only do it this way if I really wanted to use guide mode for some reason.

An alternative, and possibly easier, way to create a direct belay with the rope is to:

1. tie a small loop in the rope 18inch from your harness (alpine butterfly, fig 8 or overhand).

2. treat this loop as a replacement for your belay loop, i.e. put a screw gate on it and clove etc. to the pieces as normal.

3. belay in direct mode from the same loop.

This is termed a direct isolation loop or DIL belay.

Useful images here:

https://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/6TheBelay.htm#dil

I've been using this for a couple of years and find it really nice to use on guide mode for shakey seconds. It's become my go to piece when I top out.

I think maybe it has been something of a passing fad in the US.  Some books were written promoting them and virtually all the guides adopted them, taught them to their students, and other climbers saw this and thought it must be the right way to do things.  It is also the true that the US seems to have settled on three trad pieces as a standard anchor, whereas the rest of the world is content with two.  The 20 ft cordelette is sized for three pieces and a figure-eight power point knot.

There's certainly no need for cordelettes for anchoring at the top of single-pitch routes.  On multipitch routes where the climbers alternate leading, there is also no real point, as one can do more and better with just the rope---if one knows how...

The situations in which cordelettes make some sense are ones in which the same person leads some or all pitches consecutively, i.e. guiding or taking out beginners or leading in blocks.  In this case, cordelettes are more efficient than having the second redo the anchor rigging with their rope, although the proponents of cordelettes-for-everything overstate how much time and effort this takes, especially if the second is carrying the carabiners needed.

Cordelettes are useful as tat and can facilitate self-rescue, but then one might just carry them coiled up and not deploy them on every anchor.  Some people claim belay escapes are much harder if the anchor has been constructed with the rope, but this may be a consequence of a lack of knowledge stemming from exclusive cordelette use!

As bolted belay anchors proliferate on trad routes and big walls, more and more people are carrying some type of pre-rigged sling to speed up the belay set-up.  American guides are fond of the "quad," and many European climbers seem to like a double-length sling with a small loop at one end for what David Coley on his site calls a "banshee belay."

This is sometimes called a 'snake cord' (I know you know, but for other people to look it up). E.g. here's what Andy K has to say on the matter: https://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/the_snake_cord

It's also useful for augmenting rescue haul systems as well (it's difficult to untie a well-used cordelette, and I wouldn't want to do it under duress). E.g. https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/the-alpine-block-and-tackle

I used this system for the last year or so and converted to it - I give it full marks.

My take on all these things is always the same.

Some people like tea, some coffee. Just suck it and see.

But for heavens sake give stuff a go. (In a safe environment.)

Here's an example. If you belay directly at the top of a route, you can coil the rope at the same time, and change into your descent shoes. Then when the second arrives, do the final few coils and walk off. It is kind of strange that UK climbers wait for 20 min at the top of the crag belaying with not a lot else to do, and don't spend the time coiling the ropes!

I'll still be waiting for my mate, no matter what I do to speed things up!😁

Sounds like he/she needs a good book on the topic

Dyneema does have its drawbacks. The possiblity of a high factor fall shouldn't be dismissed.

- gear rips or leader slips whilst fiddling in first runner above belay and falls past belayer.

- worse still leader forgets to unclip then falls past belay whilst still clipped in?:>(

Inadvisable for sure, but could happen all too easily.

Do you simply build this system so that you can use your guide plate in spite of distant anchors, deliver up your 2nd(s), attach them directly to find the best nespresso machin from https://topbestnespresso.com to the anchors, then dismantle the initial set-up so you can flake the ropes and lead off? Or do you switch rope ends?

Nailed it

Not heard of anyone I know using cordelettes in the Alps. On popular routes there are usually in situ belays, you might need to add a piece or back up the tat but generally a cordelette or long sling isn’t necessary. Two 120cm slings for each person are normally sufficient. You’re right that you would carry some tat but that stays coiled in the sack or in your harness until it’s required to rig an abseil anchor.

I often carry a 240cm sling for UK trad and especially winter but depends on the route / likely anchors / how many 120cm slings I’ve got. A 400cm sling is useful in winter for huge chockstones. Think I’ve only ever take and used it once (the guide book specifically mentioned a huge chock).

If you’re leading again, the second would just attach to the powerpoint and then undo it once ready to climb. Obviously that doesn’t work with distant anchors, you’d tie in with the rope, as would your second. Unless you’re referring to Will’s system. That does sound like a faff unless the second is leading through. Coffee would be nice either way though. 

Nice to do a direct belay with a guide plate - especially if your second is heavy and falls off! Also don’t need to escape the system I’m a self rescue scenario but that’s obviously something to avoid anyway...

Have a look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkx02ANJiDY&feature=youtu.be

Indeed, if the anchor is bolted, a 120 will be fine or even a 60. But most I would suggest would be a building power point using it, rather than tying in with the ropes, which I think was what we were distinguishing.

Also alpine covers a lot more than the popular parts of the European alps. 

Interesting, first time I've seen someone use a girth hitch at the Power point,  I've had training from guides etc from France, Germany and Austria and they all use different methods, I just choose the ones that best suit what I am doing at the time. 

In trad my go to is to use the rope for the anchor but the bulk of my climbing at home is single pitch sea cliffs so leading through isn't an issue.

In the Alps it depends what I am climbing, how many ropes I am using and if I am doing all the leading.

Cheers

I used that system in the Dolomites last year and worked well there with a mix of pegs, bolts and my own gear, but not at every stance.  Sometimes I would be using my ropes, and sometime a 120 sling.  It has probably been said above, having lots of tools in the box means you can adapt to whatever you find / have to hand.  Being flexible in your approach keeps you safe, comfortable a quick

Thanks everyone for feedback. Playing around with some of this stuff at home in lieu of going outside; it's very helpful.

Whether the anchor consists of bolts, pegs, random fixed gear or a spike, on popular routes in the Alps (especially ones you abseil down) there’s usually reasonably new tat already formed into a power point (or wrapped round a spike), so you just use that, unless of course you judge the tat to be past its sell by date. In my experience it’s fairly rare to have to build your own belay on popular routes. Not unusual to have to add a sling or do a quick power point with one or two 120cm slings if the tat is old and then replace the tat if abbing back down but again you don’t need to do that regularly on the popular routes. So I’ve never felt the need to carry a long sling or cordelette. Even on less popular routes where in situ belays might not be in a good state you can get away with a couple of 120cm slings. If that’s insufficient, you’d just use the rope - either Will’s method or the traditional British approach and give up on using a guide plate. As you say, could be different in other areas.

The thing with long slings and cordelettes is they’re one trick ponies, so given the choice I’d rather carry two 120s rather than a 240. A 120 can be used as a runner, which still leaves the other 120 for the belay, which may well be sufficient. A 240 or a cordelette could well end up being dead weight, depending on the route.

That’s in the Dolomites, not got round to climbing there yet but can imagine that a long sling or a cordelette would be handy there (gear more spread out / less reliable, thus requiring more points / further apart). 

Yes, one of the interesting things about the Dolomite usage is tying together a host of presumably sketchy in-situ stuff by threading the cordelette directly and so making use of every piece at the stance without sacrificing a load of carabiners.  I've never seen such situations in the US but can see the utility of the technique "when in Rome..."

The girth-hitched power point demonstrated in the video seems to be working its way across the ocean from the Eastern Alps.  It's been tested and is as secure if one arm breaks.  If you have multiple strands, it is considerably easier to girth hitch rather than clove hitch, and it is easier to get the knot where you want it on the first try.  A substantial advantage is not having a tightened power-point knot to have to loosen after the belayer has been hanging off it for half an hour. (Some people put a carabiner through the power point knot to make it easier to undo, but that sacrifices more gear and you really need a smooth-nosed carabiner if you actually want to save time.)  A potentially drawback for those who have ingrained tied power-point habits is that the "shelf" and anything clipped to it disappears when the knot is undone---best to ditch the "shelf" concept entirely (which in my opinion is no loss at all).

...

The point which seems to be lost in translation is the concept of always "rigging for rescue".

The advantage of using a 'cordalette' to build an anchor is that your rope is free for an emergency (should one develop). Using your rope to build an anchor effectively traps that rope - complicating and adding multiple steps to recover it.

This concept is particularly important when setting up anchors to belay in-between pitches (ie on a multi-pitch route).

But, it cam also be important and relevant even on single pitch routes - where the pitch is long and requires almost all of your rope to complete.
If you teach and/promote the concept of using your climbing rope to build anchors (on single or multi-pitch routes) - you could inadvertently be setting that person up to fail at some point in the future. If they lead a very long pitch and have little rope left over, they will placed in unfamiliar territory. Also, using your rope to build anchors in-between pitches has the same potential issues and also effectively entraps the rope in the system. What if the climbers need to bail - and need the rope to setup an abseil? It just makes the whole process more complicated and time consuming.

Climbers should always 'rig for rescue' - that should be the mantra going forward. If you don't have to actually perform a rescue - that's great...but never let your guard down. Carrying a compact length of cordalette isn't a deal-breaker.

7mm cord is also useful for holding your trousers (pants) up if you forget your belt in a rush. Probably only advantage I am aware of....

Occasions when you need to get the rope completely free of the anchor while it is weighted are a tiny fraction of all self-rescue circumstances and overall are simply not, in my opinion, a serious issue that one is obliged to "rig for" at every stance.  In such super-rare situations (who has had to do this?), transferring the load onto slings installed after the fact is no big deal.  Same for long pitches.

I never meant to suggest that a competent climber wouldn't know a slew of rigging options and be prepared to deploy then when the situation calls for it.  At least on this side of the pond, it is rigging effectively and efficiently with the rope that is a skill in decline.  Heaven forbid you should drop your cordelette!

Would it be worth carrying 2 cordelettes to cover that eventuality!

People do that.  And they carry two belay devices too.

I'd like to have that much energy, think I might just tie in with the rope 

We've gone through a period of arriving at the crag with only one plate (senior moment) - not fond of Italian hitch with doubles

< [Occasions when you need to get the rope completely free of the anchor while it is weighted are a tiny fraction of all self-rescue circumstances and overall are simply not, in my opinion, a serious issue that one is obliged to "rig for" at every stance.  In such super-rare situations (who has had to do this?), transferring the load onto slings installed after the fact is no big deal.  Same for long pitches.]>

There is a really intriguing aspect to all emergencies... you never seem to be able to predict when they might occur.  Just because emergencies might be rare for a given amount of evolutions and/or seemingly appear to have a tiny risk level - does not by itself diminish the need to be prepared.
"Rigging for rescue" is a paradigm shift in the default thinking... and breaks from the mindset that "it will never happen to me".

Not having the rope entrapped within the rigging provides several advantages - and these advantages are not confined to the realm of rescue. They also provide capability to utilize almost the full length of the available rope for each pitch. Furthermore, it speeds the dismantling of the belay system in preparation for the second climber to switch from belay duty to climbing...

One also should consider the context of the climber - who could be a professional Guide - in which case a legal duty of care is owed to the 'client' climber (ie the cliff becomes a 'workplace'). In pure recreational circumstances, the act of climbing isn't work - and the cliff isn't a workplace - and so the mindset is different. Be that as it may, even for purely recreational climbers, there are also clear benefits for adopting a different mindset to risks which are inherent to the activity.

You got a profile?

You're sort of preachy on 'rig for rescue' but what is your background and why should I listen to you ?

The reality of climbing is that we make all kinds of judgements and evaluations about preparedness, and rather than there being some kind of prepared-not prepared dichotomy, there is a whole spectrum of judgements and choices that climbers navigate every time they set out.   Should we take bivvy gear, can we manage with a single rope, how much water, how big a first aid kit, how big a rack, do we need to carry snow/ice gear up a rock climb, should we bring aid gear, mountain boots or approach shoes, one or two packs or haul, can we simul-climb, can we unrope, and on and on and on.

For every context and every set of choices, there will be hypothetical scenarios that the party has chosen not to be "prepared" for (which doesn't necessarily mean they can't improvise effectively). The idea that there is some abstract and absolute level of preparedness that is capable of responding to every conceivable risk is nonsense.  And so climbers absolutely have to make judgements about what levels of risk are tiny and then carry on; the idea that such judgements do not "diminish the need to be prepared" is just plain wrong, in fact one might say that only by abandoning an absolute "need to be prepared" does anyone get off the ground at all.

Some of these judgements are truly weighty, but cordelette vs. rope rigging is not one of them.  It's just not a big deal, rig however you please.

Normally not formed into a loop, you form a loop each end to clip the outer pieces. Could be 6mm, 7 is pretty stiff and heavy.

You can cut it up and re-tie it when you need to bail.

Equalising with the rope is my preference 90+% of the time, extra single-function kit is mostly just clutter.

jk

Coiling a rope takes well under a minute. Life's not that short!

jk

That’s just nonsense. You build belays considering safety and efficiency in that order.

Anyone who is that paranoid about dealing with things going wrong obviously has no confidence in their decision making or ability to conduct a dynamic risk assessment and pick a technique appropriate to the situation. There are lots of scenarios like industrial rope access work where the whole concept of "rigging for rescue" is perfectly valid but general recreational climbing or mountaineering is just NOT one of them. Not least because doing it in any remotely comprehensive way is just impractical - as soon as you ever run out more than half a rope length, you're no longer "rigged for rescue" in any meaningful sense regardless of what belay you've built. 

In twenty five years of climbing I've dealt with one single non-trivial "rescue". The potential gain of avoiding about 10 minutes of hard graft hauling in the system with low anchors is just completely insignificant compared to the extra time and effort I'd have needed to expend on the ten thousand pitches climbed without incident.

You avoid accidents through reflective practice and the systematic elimination of dangerous occurrences and poor decision making. Trying to mitigate problems after they occur is never the best option. 

Well, because I go down conceptual rabbit holes I dug around a bit and found a few items of relevance. Really only for academic interest/info as I realise that the regular powerpoint via sling/cord or just using the rope is more than adequate, but perhaps still worth bringing to attention.

Dynamic cord: it turns out that Edelweiss make a 7mm cord with a dynamic core: http://www.edelweiss-ropes.com/en/cord-prusik-7mm.html

It's available in pre-cut lengths of 5m but seems hard to get hold of by the metre for anything longer, at least right now.

Not sure it really makes much difference compared with regular 7mm cord but might go some way to alleviate fears of static load and shock load.

Dynamic loops: Beal and Climbing Technology both make sewn loops of 8.3mm dynamic rope

Beal Dynaloop in 60, 120, and 150cm - https://sport.beal-planet.com/index.php?id_product=1742&controller=prod...

Climbing Technology Alp Loop in 60 and 120cm - https://www.climbingtechnology.com/en/outdoor-en/slings-and-lanyards/lanyar...

Obviously the dynamic loops are not going to do the job for equalising distant pieces due to their length, but still interesting. I am interested in the idea of a 120cm dynamic loop as a cows tail instead of a regular sling, seems like it introduces some of the safety advantages of the adjustable lanyards whilst being more multi-use. Obviously heavier and bulkier though.

True, but I can't see a reason not to. I also put my approach shoes back on. Just all seems natural, especially with a slow second! 

And to echo your proposition, I regard your reply as non-sensical.

By definition, safety and efficiency are encapsulated in the rigging of a belay system when also considering the possibility of a emergency.

I think the "paranoia" that you so declare is something that you have created in your own words. Nobody said anything about paranoia. Rigging for rescue is simply a concept - its not paranoia. And your comment re "no confidence: is misplaced. Lack of confidence has absolutely nothing to do with rigging for rescue. Quite the contrary.

This comment is also non-sensical.
We are discussing the merits of using a cordalette to establish a belay - so that your rope is not captive within the belay anchor system. In terms of lead climbing...the lead climber reaches the top of the pitch and establishes a belay. Crossing the half-way point in a pitch occurs before the next belay is established.
And, from the belay persons point-of-view, being forced to 'escape a belay' and then ascend to reach an injured lead climber will also be advantageous if the climbing rope is not entrapped in the system.

I think you may be confused.
If you 'rig for rescue' it is setting systems in place before they occur. In this way, you are in a better position to deal with any arising emergencies (in the event that they occur).

Happy to debate these concepts provided it stays civil.

There is one really, really good reason - direct belays ALWAYS result in a poorer belaying experience for the second. 

In a good fraction of any climbing scenarios you either have a slow, slightly nervous second (where the responsiveness of the belaying matters a lot) or a fast confident second (where it doesn't matter much, if at all). In the first case, using a direct belay is often a poor choice and unlikely to help improve their confidence through really responsive belaying. 

At the other extreme with a confident second, using a direct belay has rather limited gains as it is generally slightly harder work to belay really quickly and you won't have much free time to do the other tasks anyway.

In general, I'm just not a fan of direct belays being a default option, especially within the UK.

Taking coils whilst belaying is a technique I very occasionally use on specific sections of classic mountaineering routes when guiding, but like lots of things, just because you can, that doesn't mean it's necessarily the best choice.