Climbing piste grades

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 john arran 17 Aug 2019

If someone were to say to you: "I climb about as well as I ski. What grade should I be looking at for the equivalent of a red run?", what would you reply?

 ClimberEd 17 Aug 2019
In reply to john arran:

Ah, now that's interesting because I think for most competent skiers skiing really starts 'beyond the runs'. 

Anselme Baud's 'mont blanc et aguilles rouge a ski' (aka 'the book of death') has a grading system from F (facile -easy) to ABO (abominably difficult, although I think these are only suggested and skied routes stop at ED+) wrapping a number system from 1 to 5. 

F is basically a red run but off piste.

So maybe up to red run is a bit like scrambling/vdiff, black run is VS and onwards from there.

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 Doug 17 Aug 2019
In reply to john arran:

I guess you can read French so have a look at https://www.camptocamp.org/articles/107675/fr/aide-topoguide-cotations-a-sk...

towards the bottom is a table comparing various systems, a black run in a ski resort would  probably be S3 so as ClimberEd says, black is actually relatively easy, especially if comparing pistes in a ski resort with natural snow (sport climbing vs trad ?)

OP john arran 17 Aug 2019
In reply to ClimberEd:

> Ah, now that's interesting because I think for most competent skiers skiing really starts 'beyond the runs'. 

> Anselme Baud's 'mont blanc et aguilles rouge a ski' (aka 'the book of death') has a grading system from F (facile -easy) to ABO (abominably difficult, although I think these are only suggested and skied routes stop at ED+) wrapping a number system from 1 to 5. 

> F is basically a red run but off piste.

> So maybe up to red run is a bit like scrambling/vdiff, black run is VS and onwards from there.

My take on it is that most occasional recreational skiers will, once they've become confident in the basics, spend the majority of their time doing blue and red runs, while anyone with particular drive or talent will very quickly progress beyond that level. Certainly there are many people who have been skiing many times and still would be reluctant to even try most black runs even in good conditions.

I'd put red at around VS, just above the level you'd expect most absolute beginners to be able to do on their first forays (i.e. green Diff to blue Severe) but far from out of the question if they took to it well. Then black would mean HVS, although the variability of conditions would mean it often would feel harder. In sport grades I'd put red at around grade V moving to black from 6a or so.

OP john arran 17 Aug 2019
In reply to Doug:

Like with modern climbing, that table has many grades beyond what most recreational piste skiers will be doing, so it's hardly surprising that red runs would equate to perhaps S2 (out of 7) on that scale. If we turn out UK grade system into numbers, such that Diff is 1, VDiff is 2, etc., then the highest grades around now would be around grade 16, whereas the typical recreational climber will be operating at around grade 4. Seems to be quite comparable.

 summo 17 Aug 2019
In reply to john arran:

Hvs/E1 = black

Provided they are both climbed comfortably and skied well. 

You either finish a climb or you don't. But you see recreational skiers survival skiing reds and blacks, more stop start skidding than actual skiing. So it does depend on how define skiing. 

To do either well it's unlikely that you can just turn up after 51 weeks away and perform well on day 1, but after 6 days getting back into it then either are possible.  

 Rob Exile Ward 17 Aug 2019
In reply to Doug:

I've often thought of piste skiing as equivalent to sport climbing - even the hardest runs are pretty safe. So Black = sport 6a seems about right. 

Post edited at 09:56
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 Trangia 17 Aug 2019
In reply to john arran:

It's a very subjective opinion, but I'd put Green and Blue Runs as scrambling

Red as Diff /VDiff

Black as Severe

Double Black Diamond as in USA as Hard Severe/VS

But as an earlier poster said harder skiing only really comes into it's own once you get into off piste and touring.

As has already been pointed out there is skiing and skiing eg side slipping down a Black doesn't put you in the same league as taking racing lines down it, but in both cases the skier arrives at the bottom and might "claim" to have skied it 

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 planetmarshall 17 Aug 2019
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> I've often thought of piste skiing as equivalent to sport climbing - even the hardest runs are pretty safe. So Black = sport 6a seems about right. 

But Sport Climbing is often far harder technically and physically than a "equivalent" Trad climb. If a Sport climb is a Piste Ski, then it's an Olympic standard Grand Slalom.

OP john arran 17 Aug 2019
In reply to Trangia:

> It's a very subjective opinion, but I'd put Green and Blue Runs as scrambling

I'd expect pretty much any non-climber who was in good health to be able to get up most scrambles without a tight rope on their first day, whereas I'd be amazed if more than a very small number of complete beginner skiers were able to ski blue runs on their first day on skis.

One caveat is that my concept of a run being successfully skied is that it was done in a reasonably parallel fashion (rather than snowplough) and with no stops (except perhaps on the easy sections - the 'ledges'!) 

 Rob Exile Ward 17 Aug 2019
In reply to john arran:

Yep - doing a black at speed with some style and no stops = sending a 6a without dogging. QED!

 planetmarshall 17 Aug 2019
In reply to john arran:

> I'd expect pretty much any non-climber who was in good health to be able to get up most scrambles without a tight rope on their first day, whereas I'd be amazed if more than a very small number of complete beginner skiers were able to ski blue runs on their first day on skis.

I did, and skied reds the following day.

Then broke my leg on my first off piste experience. Swings and roundabouts.


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