Climbing in caves

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 Greenbanks 14 Oct 2004
Just had a conversation re. caving. Left me wondering whether there's such a 'sport', or section of caving. that does routes underground. If so, what's the standard like compared to (proper) climbing. Any cavers on here?
 Tom W 14 Oct 2004
In reply to Greenbanks:
I think the longest route in Yorkshire is a multi-pitch out of Gaping Gill, about 140metres of climbing I think. Can only be done when the pothole club divert the water flow though (when they put in a winch and charge stupid amounts for a lift out).

Also, in one of the Yorkshire caving guides, there is a grade 1 one at Almcliff.

As to proper climbing in caves, I have no idea, but I do know that some of the local ones have been kayaked!
OP Greenbanks 14 Oct 2004
In reply to Tom W:

I know about the Gaping Ghyll one - I think I've got a route description somewhere. Sounds a bit of a terror.
 Tom W 14 Oct 2004
In reply to Greenbanks:
Yeah it's in the back of the Limestone guide. I think theres a few others but haven't got it to hand at the moment.

I'm almost 100% sure there are some other caves with routes logged in them. But caves tend to be wet, dark and cold - not nice climbing conditions!
 andy 14 Oct 2004
In reply to Tom W: There's various pitches that get free-climbed - dolly-tobs in Long-Churn for one - also isn't there a vaguely amusing/embarrassing story about top Lakeland on-sighter Nick Wharton having to climb out of Simpson's Cave in Kingsdale (or one of them up there, anyway - he was meant to be doing one of the pull through trips into the master cave) when he abbed a group in, pulled the ropes and then realised he was in the wrong cave and there was no way out?

curleywee 14 Oct 2004
In reply to Greenbanks: Gaping Gill Main Shaft was first free-climbed at E3 by Dave Hetherington back in the mid-late eighties I think. Dave is/was a caver as well which is handy as you need the gear to get down there. It was done during one of the two annual winch meets (Spring Bank and August Bank weeks) when the bulk of the stream is diverted away from the main shaft. Dave told me once that the hardest part was the upper section where the increasing daylight causes more lichen growth. Whatever, if you get the chance to go down on the winch take it as it is a unique and awe inspiring experience. I have heard of Alum Pot being climbed out of from the sump to the top of the main shaft in a series of pitches. I think it might have been Steve Rhodes and his dad? Other surface shafts must have been done - I climbed out of Marble Steps Pot once self-lining up with one of my ascenders. We used to take climbing gear down caves occasionally to climb up avens - holes in the roof - to see if there were unexplored passages above. I used to try and climb short pitches instead of pulling up fixed ropes wherever possible. By the way, prussiking up a big pitch is excellent fitness training for climbing - I was never fitter than when I was caving regularly. Many shafts could be climbed using surface techniques instead of SRT but the cold and wet conditions usually mean that you want to get up and down them asap and keep moving to keep warm. Limestone erodes differently underground - there always seems to be lots of razor-sharp flakes around which would slice through a rope (or you!) if you fell across one. Karl Lunt (ex-caver).
AndiT 15 Oct 2004
In reply to Greenbanks:

Pretty certain Pete Livesey climbed a few upto about E3. There are certain dry passages I have been through which actually are dry and could support some routes, but the prospect of injuring yourself, even slighly when down there would result in something pretty serious (imagine trying to squeeze around a passage with a broken rib or pelvis, you couldn't).

The cave at almscliff is 30 metres long and was initially explored by a boy scout! It is a very tight squeeze and being gritstone trips your clothes to pieces, not a recommended trip at all!!
epik 15 Oct 2004
In reply to Greenbanks: ive often wondered if anyone else ever bothered doing routes underground. i grew up in mendip caves so most of the routes i know are down there (all done solo as could never be arsed with taking kit down).

Good introduction would be swildons (priddy) down to the sump with no ropes or ladders, involves down climbing the 20 (surprisingly easier than coming up) then climbing back up it (always fun if water is high as i found out second time i soloed it) although you can climb round it but more fun direct up the waterfall and easier IMHO! Then climb up the 40 and out.

20 would probably get Diff above ground with no water but high water can make it impossible! 40 would probably get HVD as most of its easy just one move high up which makes you think with no ropes, but in all its a nice intro the the "sport"!

There are lots more worth while excursions (some i havent had the bollocks to solo yet) and intend putting some of them online at some point so if anyone else has got good ones to add let me know!
Witkacy 15 Oct 2004
In reply to Tom W:

> But caves tend to be wet, dark and cold - not nice climbing conditions!

Caves never get that cold, despite being wet the rock isn’t generally slippery because it’s not covered in algae, and your gear provides sufficient light. I like the whole-body nature of the climbing in caving, the contortioning, wriggling and the three dimensionality of it. Of course, the enjoyment is mainly from a sense of exploration rather than artificially seeking technical moves which can be graded – instead you use common sense and aid past the difficulties.
epik 15 Oct 2004
In reply to Witkacy:
> Of course, the enjoyment is mainly from a sense of exploration rather than artificially seeking technical moves which can be graded – instead you use common sense and aid past the difficulties.

But seeking out the hard stuff is also great fun! THere are pitches underground that would get high E grade up top yet the cave guides say dont expect rescue this deep into the system! E10 in the dark on wet limestone - only the extremely stupid need apply! I'd like to see Lisa do End of the Affair in wellies
OP Greenbanks 15 Oct 2004
In reply to epik:

I'm a coward when it comes to dark, enclosed spaces. The reason for the post was because my conversation with friends led me to recollect a glance, as a schoolkid, down Gaping Ghyll - it left me wondering. But for me even show caves give me the willies. You must be hard as nails

epik 15 Oct 2004
In reply to Greenbanks:
> You must be hard as nails
>
>


Thats me! hard as a drag queens nails
 TimB 15 Oct 2004
In reply to Greenbanks:

I seem to remember a sport route being equipped up the inside of the main entry shaft to Eldon Hole (sp?).

Called "Independence Day" (I think) - F7a+ and even made it onto the cover of High.

Then cavers started complaining about the chalk and nicked all the bolts.
epik 15 Oct 2004
In reply to TimB: sounds good! 40m pitch at F7a+ must have been a good route! although the moral of the story is obviously dont use chalk or bolts, although cavers are a dieing breed so wont be many to complain soon!
 JLS 15 Oct 2004
In reply to epik:
> "i grew up in mendip caves"

...you poor thing!
epik 15 Oct 2004
In reply to JLS:
> ...you poor thing!

Yeah parents didn't like me much!

 Mike C 15 Oct 2004
In reply to epik:
Where do you free climb the 20 in Swildons? Is it up the wall on the right (as you look at it from below). It's over 20yrs since I was there mind so memory may be playing tricks. And where's the "40"?
epik 15 Oct 2004
In reply to Mike C:
> Where do you free climb the 20 in Swildons?

Looking from below ive heard of people doing it up the left wall and making a high traverse but the way i've always done it is directly below the waterfall. Step under the water to the back of the fall and climb under the overhanging wall. Then reach out around the overhang to just right of the stream (good jugs) trying to avoid being swept away by the water that is unavoidable and whips you in the face! then swing onto the main wall (high right wall) and straight up! Basically if you've got water pouring on your head from start to finish your on route! it is as direct as is possible and easier than it looks!

> And where's the "40"?

40" foot ladder pitch (the old way down before the big floods) but now as you come through the 12" direct above your head is the 40. dont see many on it now as its not vital to get down the cave but well worth a diversion if your feeling confident! Though take a mate to call cave rescue as it would be well easy to slip!

 Mike C 15 Oct 2004
In reply to epik:

OK, Thanks. Reckon I'm glad I stuck to ladders!

Do you reckon the exit from the dry series the Long Round takes you through is free-climbable (can remember it's name, Muddy something? At at the end of Causers Calamity after Gloop & Grit sumps). Seem to remeber it as quite a narrow pitch, chimneyable maybe? Though after going all the way to Sump 9 & out I wouldn't want to do anything technical.
epik 15 Oct 2004
In reply to Mike C: sump 9 is good effort!

cant say i am totally sure where you mean. being unable to swim ive never been overly keen to go too deep in the sumps, i'd rather fall and die than drown! but if its chimney width it must be free climbable although saying that the chimney up to the tight section in sidcot is a right nightmare even with a rope to grab hold of!
 Mike C 15 Oct 2004
In reply to epik:
It's a series off the Short Round, about half way round off to the left. Most of the passages are covered in red mud. In doing the Long Round you enter a few yards & rig a ladder for the exit. Everything being covered in mud could make a freeclimb a bit tricky. I wonder if it's St Pauls, but have a mind that's elsewhere. Will check out my guide tonight.
You don't need to worry about being able to swim in the sumps, for the long round there's only one actual underwater passage, & thats too tight to move your arms much!
 Mr Pink 2 15 Oct 2004
In reply to andy:
"Also isn't there a vaguely amusing/embarrassing story about top Lakeland on-sighter Nick Wharton having to climb out of Simpson's Cave in Kingsdale"

Possibly, several people who ought to know better have pulled through down the blind 'Bob's Pit' in Simpson's Pot only to discover it dosn't go anywhere. I think the record amount of time spent waiting is about 2 days!

On a similar line, Rock and Run supremo Mr Hyslop abseiled down a similar blind pit in Pippikin Pot on Leck Fell. I think he managed to climb out though.

Some foolish people do go climbing in caves for fun though:
http://cucc.survex.com/jnl/1973/oneway.htm
 Chris H 15 Oct 2004
In reply to Mike C:
Where do you free climb the 20 in Swildons?

I seem to remember traversing in from the left and reaching for massive jug under waterfall.

I also remember a traverse above a big pool that if you fell in you were baptised as a "son of Mendip".

 Mike C 15 Oct 2004
In reply to Chris H:
> (In reply to Mike C)

> I also remember a traverse above a big pool that if you fell in you were baptised as a "son of Mendip".

I remember that pool, used to jump in it on the way down & crouch down to make it look really deep before the next one jumped.
 andy 15 Oct 2004
In reply to Mr Pink 2: It wasn't even in Simpsons, apparently - wrong cave altogether. I've nearly abbed down Blind Pot once or twice - I'm sure the lads in Ingleton were saying it was the wrong cave altogether.
OP Greenbanks 15 Oct 2004
In reply to andy:

Do cavers:
1. Have guide books?
2. Wrangle about grades?
3. Have ethical dilemmas about routes?
4. Have a decent website?
5. Have equivalents of 'Hard Rock' or the 8000m peaks?

etc. etc.
 Mike C 16 Oct 2004
In reply to Greenbanks:
> (In reply to andy)

Bear in mind my caving was 1980's

> Do cavers:

> 1. Have guide books?
Yes, with descriptions of passages & problems (also wonderful plans of caves). Used to take waterproofed photocopies of relevant pages underground.

> 2. Wrangle about grades?
Grades exist(ed) but don't remember any controversy about them, they just gave an idea of how hard the trip might be.

> 3. Have ethical dilemmas about routes?
Maybe with reference to damage to / destruction of "pretties", ie attractive formations underground, otherwise not that I was aware of.

> 4. Have a decent website?
Not in the early 1980's! Bet they do now though.

> 5. Have equivalents of 'Hard Rock' or the 8000m peaks?
Grottes et Canyons by Pierre Minvielle was the cavers Rebuffat, all French of course. Various books of UK caves, & some brilliant books by Martyn Farr on Cave Diving, but never the UK Hard Rock equivalent IIRC
>
> etc. etc.
A good accompanying sport to climbing, more in the style of winter climbing/alpinism, less technical, but with greater objective dangers, so long as you were happy having rock above as well as in front & below.


 Mike C 16 Oct 2004
In reply to epik:
> (In reply to Mike C) sump 9 is good effort!
>
> cant say i am totally sure where you mean.

Ok, checked guide, Shatter Series, ladder up Shatter Pot, 30ft. Joined to streamway by Damp Link.
Rog 16 Oct 2004
In reply to Greenbanks:

Have a look at www.rrcpc.org.uk/ for a website - plenty of others.

Lots of climbing underground - it depends how strong you feel or how stupid you have been, but several roped pitches can be bypassed by free-climbing - exit to Kingsdale Mastercave, several Easegill pitches and so forth.

Several caves in France/Pyrenees descend for more than 1000m or run for many kilometres (Tho' the Easegill caverns have more than 70km passage on several levels (Yorkshire Dales)).

In the Dales a classic effort takes in three major caves in one push - each on one of the Yorkshire big hills - done twice to my knowledge.

The only real ethical issue (apart from damage to formations and access) is 'did you get out alive without assistance'?
 Chris H 16 Oct 2004
In reply to Mike C:
"Ok, checked guide, Shatter Series, ladder up Shatter Pot, 30ft. Joined to streamway by Damp Link. "

Brings back memories. First time we did the damp link (lured by description in older guidebook - "foolhardy and dangerous!") our lights had just about gone and we were stumbling around Shatter series trying to find the bottom of the ladder we had pre-rigged. Luckily we had stashed an ammo can full of Mars bars and beer at the top of the pitch - some spare lights might have been useful in retrospect!
 Mike C 16 Oct 2004
In reply to Chris H:
Fortunately had no problems with lights in Shatter, can imagine the fun though!
Best memory of Shatter from the Damp Link for me is a duck, which usually needed bailing, that you had to slide down quite steeply into headfirst on your back, in order to go through it properly, hoping you'd bailed enough water out of it!
OP Greenbanks 16 Oct 2004
In reply to Mike C:
'Duck', 'bailing' ?? Technical terms used by cavers?
 Mike C 16 Oct 2004
In reply to Greenbanks:
Semi-technical really.
A duck is a partially flooded passage (usually quite small) that is often passed on your back with your nose out of the water (scraping against the rock!) - don't make waves!
Ducks often get flooded, then you have to "bail" them out with your helmet or often an in situ bucket until sufficient airspace allows you to get through.
Hope this helps
OP Greenbanks 16 Oct 2004
In reply to Mike C:

Holy Moses. This duck thing sounds the most gruesome thing imaginable.

I've just been in the library with my daughter & in passing noted they'd got this coffee-table book by National Geographic called (oddly) 'Caves'. The text is by someone called Taylor, I think. Illustrations are maginficent - esp. the ones of them exploring caves in Greenland.

Suffice it to say that rock climbing is my limit of adventure!

Cheers
 Mike C 16 Oct 2004
In reply to Greenbanks:
> (In reply to Mike C)

> Suffice it to say that rock climbing is my limit of adventure!
>
> Cheers

You're welcome, though you don't know what you're missing, or maybe you do now!
Get your library to get you a copy of "The Darkness Beckons" by Martyn Farr, brilliant read about the history of cave diving, now that makes caving look like a stroll in the park.

 andrew ogilvie 16 Oct 2004
In reply to Mike C: Yes, that is the book for extravagant stories of misery. I took my diving stuff into work on Friday to show some pupils. They love the gruesome stuff.

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