Climbing from Wednesday?

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 Paul Sagar 10 May 2020

Climbing from Wednesday?

Did the PM’s announcement that

- you can drive to exercise

- you can do unlimited exercise 

- so long as you stay in your household group

just mean that we can climb from Wednesday?

11
 Danbow73 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Yep I'd say so... providing you dont climb in Wales or Scotland! 

7
 Bouldering Ben 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Sounds like it...

4
 Simon King 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Sounds like it to me... Would hope BMC might say something asap...

8
 RebeccaMM 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Sounds like it!?

But not in Wales... we're on unlimited exercise but not allowed to drive or travel, only from front door.  Argh 

Gonna be busy in the Lakes

Post edited at 19:18
4
 DoctorYoghourt 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

That's my interpretation.  I'm gonna have to teach my girlfriend to belay!

6
 Tom Valentine 10 May 2020
In reply to RebeccaMM:

I wouldn't expect there to be a welcome in the hillsides in the Lakes any more than in Wales. And looking at their infection rates it's hard to blame them.

6
baron 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

As long as you’re not  furloughed and being paid to stay at home.

35
 Max Hangs 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> Climbing from Wednesday?

> Did the PM’s announcement that

> - you can drive to exercise

> - you can do unlimited exercise 

> - so long as you stay in your household group

> just mean that we can climb from Wednesday?

I would add that he said you could do "sports" again as well, so it does sound promising.

Fingers crossed for an update from the BMC.

Edit: I'm not saying the BMC's advice is still relevant, merely that from my POV it would be nice if they now reversed their advice to not climb, rather than go quiet on the subject.

Post edited at 19:35
6
 OG 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

From the BBC:

“You can sit in the sun in your local park, you can drive to other destinations, you can even play sports but only with members of your own household.”

But he warns people “must obey the rules on social distancing” and to enforce them, the fines police can give out will be increased.

I guess we will need to wait for the full guidance document out tomorrow. At present I'd say it's not clear what is meant by:

- Socially distanced >> only with own household?

- Drive to other destinations >> any limit on distance?

On the driving clearly this would at most be reasonable day trips, but even if day trip climbing and hiking is OK that would be a big change.  I think we need more info though before jumping to conclusions...

11
 jassaelle 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

technically, yes we can interpret that as able to climb again - and if you're safe and in quiet places it's not a problem. however, lets me honest, the bmc will release a statement erring on the side of caution advising against it - which is what they have to do. If everyone flocks to stanage after wednesday its going to give climbers such a bad reputation and possibly restrict future access. I can't say for sure, but I think the bmc are still going to advise against it, and not cause they're arseholes but they want to protect climbing's reputation and ensure access and safety. 

it's a tricky one, but my guess is.. technically yes, but bmc will release a statement and I don't think it's gonna be a green light tbh. but speculation here

22
 deacondeacon 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Woohoo


6
TheClimbingWallCritic 10 May 2020
In reply to Simon King:

Why would I wait for the BMC?? If the government has said we can go out for unlimited exercise we dont need a green light from the BMC.

26
 kaiser 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I have a cottage booked in the Lakes for next Saturday for a week.  Just me and wife going...

I was going to cancel - but now perhaps not?  

18
 RebeccaMM 10 May 2020
In reply to Tom Valentine:

No, I agree. Aren't they already a bit of a hotspot? 

 Martin Haworth 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I think the Government is publishing the details tomorrow, 50+ pages.

 Bouldering Ben 10 May 2020
In reply to RebeccaMM:

If you can make it to the English border without getting caught then you’re free to drive and exercise!!

3
 andyb211 10 May 2020
In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

Suns out on Wednesday too!

Best polish my nuts!!

2
 Dom Goodwin 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

He said that sport is allowed, provided it is with members of your own household. It's true that climbing does not satisfy the normal definition of sport - at least, I have never felt while climbing to be competing with any other person or team, which is central and fundamental to the definition of sport. But regardless, I think it can reasonably be assumed that outdoor activities in general are ok, but only with members of your own household.

Post edited at 19:47
12
TheClimbingWallCritic 10 May 2020
In reply to andyb211:

Polish away! As long as it's with a member of your household!!

In reply to Paul Sagar:

I've got a trip planned for Thursday already, haha. Coincides nicely with the weather report too! F*cking ay. 

5
 groovejunkie 10 May 2020
In reply to RebeccaMM:

> No, I agree. Aren't they already a bit of a hotspot? 

That would seem incredibly sensible but I think mr Johnson may have just opened the floodgates.....

OP Paul Sagar 10 May 2020

The BMC will do what it does. But it doesn’t make the rules, the government does. 

Personally I’m quite relaxed about the idea of reputational damage to climbing in anything mode than the short term. This time next year access agreements to non-sensitive sites will not seriously be jeopardise because “last year some people did climbing when the lockdown was first eased”. People move on and forget, fast. 

So yeah, don’t antagonise anything unnecessarily - but I don’t think there will be a long-run effect on “the reputation” of “climbing” generally. 

17
 Sl@te Head 10 May 2020
In reply to Dom Goodwin:

> He said that sport is allowed

No trad or bouldering then

2
 AdrianC 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Ummm - anyone heard anything from MR organisations?  Just might be worth thinking about before we all go chasing off up the hills.

29
 Danm79 10 May 2020

I think we need more info though before jumping to conclusions...

I don’t!

11
In reply to AdrianC:

> Ummm - anyone heard anything from MR organisations?  Just might be worth thinking about before we all go chasing off up the hills.

Just be more careful and don't be an idiot when you're out and about? If you hurt yourself, you might be on your own. 

Personal responsibility and that. 

12
 krikoman 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Cue a massive spike in two weeks time and another lockdown, in three weeks.

28
baron 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> The BMC will do what it does. But it doesn’t make the rules, the government does. 

> Personally I’m quite relaxed about the idea of reputational damage to climbing in anything mode than the short term. This time next year access agreements to non-sensitive sites will not seriously be jeopardise because “last year some people did climbing when the lockdown was first eased”. People move on and forget, fast. 

> So yeah, don’t antagonise anything unnecessarily - but I don’t think there will be a long-run effect on “the reputation” of “climbing” generally. 

You might find that the people who live near to crags and boulders might be less than welcoming.

As for antagonising land owners who have crags on their land you might find that their memories are quite long.

14
In reply to krikoman:

> Cue a massive spike in two weeks time and another lockdown, in three weeks.

As if outdoor climbing was ever a realistic mass infection vector. 

14
TheClimbingWallCritic 10 May 2020
In reply to AdrianC:

It's always worth thinking about MR organisations but my thought would be they are a voluntary organisation. They dont have to rescue anyone if they dont want to.

47
In reply to baron:

>As for antagonising land owners who have crags on their land you might find that their memories are quite long.

Maybe they could take a break from licking their rocks for a few months?

22
 Martin Haworth 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Haha, Amazing how everyone thinks Boris is the bees knees now, and whatever he says must be gospel, sod the BMC and Labour and that wee Scottish woman.

8
 Myfyr Tomos 10 May 2020
In reply to Tom Valentine:

I have to agree Tom. Any premature venturing to popular areas will be seriously frowned upon by those local communities. It could well put back what goodwill has been built up over the years for a very very long time. It seems shortsighted to knock the BMC when they are the ones that will have to re-negotiate access agreements to crags when this shitstorm is over. Please be patient.

10
 AdrianC 10 May 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

Isn't that what we do normally?

Not trying to start an argument here but we're looking at large numbers of out-of-practice people with bags of enthusiasm all suddenly heading out climbing.  It's not exactly the perfect background to a low-accident rate.

10
 Dom Goodwin 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

As others have said, while the message fairly clearly seems to give the go ahead for climbing, a serious point is how to maintain social distance. Perhaps this is what the BMC should now focus on? (Rather than the type of climbing done.) How do we avoid overcrowding in popular areas? Seems an unenviable task to come up with a sensible strategy for this.

1
 AdrianC 10 May 2020
In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

Exactly.

1
baron 10 May 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

> >As for antagonising land owners who have crags on their land you might find that their memories are quite long.

> Maybe they could take a break from licking their rocks for a few months?

Upset them enough and you might find yourself not touching their rocks for years.

5
In reply to Martin Haworth:

Whatever he says is gospel if you live and climb in England. I don't give a crap what the devolved nations are doing, that's their business. And Labour are a political non-entity until the next election, so no point listening to them either. 

Are Labour even saying to do anything differently?

46
 Martin Haworth 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Presumably shunting routes should be OK?

 OG 10 May 2020
In reply to Danm79:

Well the speech was pretty vague and the actual guidance comes out tomorrow, but I suppose you can go off a very high level speech instead if you prefer that to understanding the details

Post edited at 19:47
2
 Misha 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Strictly, the rules permitted people to do that anyway but it’s good to have official confirmation from BoJo. Albeit I’d wait for the official guidance to be updated and the debate in Parliament to see if any particular restrictions are envisaged in relation to driving.

Clearly it’s still very important to avoid accidents (as ever!). Play it safe and so on.

Also locals and landowners will still be sensitive, so it’s important to avoid aggravating them by going to crags which are well away from any housing (including any car parks or access paths to get there). Preferably crags on CROW access land (check the OS 25k map if not sure) as risk of losing access would be low.

Obviously all this only applies to England.

In practice, the main limitation for most people will be the restriction to household members.

From the transcript:

“You can sit in the sun in your local park, you can drive to other destinations, you can even play sports but only with members of your own household.

You must obey the rules on social distancing and to enforce those rules we will increase the fines for the small minority who break them.”

 Derry 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Can everyone calm down. The thought of everyone now being able to climb, kayak, hillwalk, surf, go to the beach, play football etc etc etc and still keep social distancing just makes me anxious. Did we not see what happened to places the weekend before lockdown? with all the pubs and sporting fixtures closed, everyone and anyone thought they'd find their little place of solitude in the hills, mountains and beaches. That speech was a joke!

23
 Yorkiebar 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Yes it does, but of course you can already climb now. The only change is that you're allowed to drive outside of your local area from Wednesday. I'd like to think that anyone doing so, however, does stay alert and bear in mind that when they refuel their car, buy lunch in a local supermarket etc etc they risk spreading the disease into and around those rural areas. It's not the distance that matters, but the interaction with the local communities. Please clean your hands before and after shopping / refuelling and the like or places like the Lakes & Peaks are going to *actually* close.

Anyway, I guess we'd better get used to the idea of busy crags again - I've been enjoying climbing at deserted crags whilst people weren't allowed to drive to exercise...

Also, the sudden shift away from all that BMC phased reopening nonsense is quite noticeable on this thread now that people get a sniff of the outdoors...

And, I genuinely feel sorry for people in Wales and Scotland

37
 Danm79 10 May 2020
In reply to OG:

 Well the speech was pretty vague and the actual guidance comes out tomorrow, but I suppose you can go off a very high level speech instead if you prefer that to understanding the details

Indeed, but as long as nothing directly contradicts what he’s just said - ok I suppose there could be guidelines about travel distances - but sounds like we’re reet.

 kaiser 10 May 2020
In reply to Yorkiebar:

> Yes it does, but of course you can already climb now. The only change is that you're allowed to drive outside of your local area from Wednesday.

Did he actually say that?

Post edited at 19:57
TheClimbingWallCritic 10 May 2020
In reply to Yorkiebar:

> places  like the Peaks are going to *actually* close.

The where?

9
 brianjcooper 10 May 2020
In reply to krikoman:

> Cue a massive spike in two weeks time and another lockdown, in three weeks.

Yep. And the virus is going to Stanage on Wednesday too. 

11
In reply to Yorkiebar:

>I'd like to think that anyone doing so, however, does stay alert and bear in mind that when they refuel their car, buy lunch in a local supermarket etc etc they risk spreading the disease into and around those rural areas.

Yes, stock up on fuel and food in your local area. Touch nothing that a local might touch, other than rock. Common sense precautions should be taken. 

Post edited at 19:59
5
 webbo 10 May 2020
In reply to Yorkiebar:

> Yes it does, but of course you can already climb now. The only change is that you're allowed to drive outside of your local area from Wednesday. I'd like to think that anyone doing so, however, does stay alert and bear in mind that when they refuel their car, buy lunch in a local supermarket etc etc they risk spreading the disease into and around those rural areas. It's not the distance that matters, but the interaction with the local communities. Please clean your hands before and after shopping / refuelling and the like or places like the Lakes & Peaks are going to *actually* close.

> Anyway, I guess we'd better get used to the idea of busy crags again - I've been enjoying climbing at deserted crags whilst people weren't allowed to drive to exercise...

> Also, the sudden shift away from all that BMC phased reopening nonsense is quite noticeable on this thread now that people get a sniff of the outdoors...

> And, I genuinely feel sorry for people in Wales and Scotland

Given your profile says you live in York, I’m wondering which crags  you have been walking to to climb on.

7
 olddirtydoggy 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

We had already decided to begin our climbing last monday. I'm lucky to have a wife that I do most of my climbing with on a local, quiet crag. Seems much of the opinion here is changing based on government guidelines. I doubt many of us will be waiting for a statement from other sources.

What we will be doing is watching the numbers and if things do spike back up then we'll be putting the ropes and rack back in the kit room. We won't be waiting for guidance. Everybody here will asses their own situation and risk, hopefully in the spirit of the governments guidelines.

12
 SDM 10 May 2020
In reply to Dom Goodwin:

> As others have said, while the message fairly clearly seems to give the go ahead for climbing, a serious point is how to maintain social distance. Perhaps this is what the BMC should now focus on? (Rather than the type of climbing done.) How do we avoid overcrowding in popular areas? 

Some starters for ten:

1) If someone is already on a route or boulder that shares holds or the same bit of rock as the one you planned to try or if any potential position of the climber or belayer would prevent social distancing: move on, climb something else.

2) If another person/people are already at the boulder/buttress/crag and this prevents effective social distancing: move on, climb somewhere else.

3) Avoid crags/routes/problems that are right next to popular paths that will prevent effective social distancing.

4) Avoid walk-ins with pinch points on busy paths that prevent social distancing.

5) This one shouldn't need to be mentioned but for the hard of thinking: no climbing with anyone from outside your household. No traveling to the crag with anyone from outside your household.

A bit of flexibility will go a long way. Be prepared to bail to backup routes, areas or crags if there are already people where you planned to climb. If we don't and a busy crag ends up on the next viral Derbyshire police video, we risk losing the freedom we appear to have just gained and we risk losing any good faith towards the Climbing community.

2
 Myfyr Tomos 10 May 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

As if outdoor climbing was ever a realistic mass infection vector. 

Yes George, I agree but, unfortunately, the hordes that turn up at the local beauty spot/hotspot to party, barbecue, camp, get drunk and leave one helluva mess, all in the name of "exercise", are also included in BJ's little speech this evening. Climber and hillwalker numbers will be tiny compared to these but will all be seen as "visitors".  

1
 mik82 10 May 2020
In reply to Yorkiebar:

>The only change is that you're allowed to drive outside of your local area from Wednesday. 

We'll wait and see what the guidance says, but I would expect that being able to drive will still mean locally. 

 ianstevens 10 May 2020
In reply to brianjcooper:

> Yep. And the virus is going to Stanage on Wednesday too. 

Just stay alert then  

1
 scott titt 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Here's the Guardian's take on the details 

As widely expected, people will be formally allowed to go out for exercise more than once a day. In addition, people will be permitted to meet and sit down with one other person, outdoors, if they remain two metres apart. The new rules will start on Wednesday, when people can undertake “unlimited amounts of outdoor exercise”, and sunbathe or drive to destinations for exercise. Sports including angling, swimming in lakes and rivers, tennis and golf will also be allowed, but only within household groups.

 Yorkiebar 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

"Our position at UKClimbing is now clear, we no longer think it is socially responsible to go climbing on outdoor crags. The activity is certain to bring people into contact with others away from their own domestic group, which is precisely what we are being advised not to do. There is a risk of passing the virus from hand to hold to hand. There is also the risk of accident at a time where we really need to reduce the burden on the NHS. Even if you think you can isolate and climb safely, recent events have shown us that the cumulative effect of lots of people doing that results in places being swamped."

I do wonder how UKC come back from this position though. The government saying that people can drive will only increase the risk of us coming into contact from others away from our own domestic group. And the risk of accident hasn't changed. So presumably UKC's official position is that it is still not socially responsible to go climbing on outdoor crags?

Or do UKC now feel that because the government are allowing driving to exercise that we no longer need to reduce the burden on the NHS? 

4
 ianstevens 10 May 2020
In reply to mik82:

> >The only change is that you're allowed to drive outside of your local area from Wednesday. 

> We'll wait and see what the guidance says, but I would expect that being able to drive will still mean locally. 

You’ve actually always been allowed to drive for exercise - but the distance has never been specifically stated. I’d like to see something more specific than “local” - either defined by distance or travel time.

 krikoman 10 May 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

> As if outdoor climbing was ever a realistic mass infection vector. 


Knock yourself out mate. It's not really about climbing, it's about people thinking it's business as usual.

We came into this game late, did a shit job of locking it down, and we're coming out the same time as the rest of Europe which did a much better job. See you in ICU in three weeks time.

32
 olddirtydoggy 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

This might be an opportunity to have a look at some of those smaller, esoteric crags that are quiet and rarely visited. It might be that some small amounts of climbing traffic might clean them up. We've just been up to https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/crow_stones-20372 and taken a bouldering mat to do the really easy boulders. 7 hours we were up there and didn't see a single person. We were shocked how good the quality of the bouldering was there and can't understand why the place isn't popular. The PDF on the BMC site is an excellent free download. I'm happy to share if anyone wants it. Lets play safe.

13
 krikoman 10 May 2020
In reply to SDM:

> Some starters for ten:

> 1) If someone is already on a route or boulder that shares holds or the same bit of rock as the one you planned to try or if any potential position of the climber or belayer would prevent social distancing: move on, climb something else.

Just out of curiosity how long does the virus stay viable on gritstone, limestone, or rhyolite?

Is it the same for each rock type?

Does chalk help or hinder the spread of the virus?

Would a blue jumper help?

Post edited at 20:22
12
 mountainmanBFC 10 May 2020
In reply to krikoman:

You're a lively, chipper and optimistic little fella aren't you!!!

Chill out man. 

37
 smithg 10 May 2020
In reply to SDM:

Might be best to leave some time between ascents of the same route.

We could use the logbooks to reserve routes for the sole use of 1 household for a 24hr period.

I'll have https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/stanage_north-99/rons_girdle_trave... for next Sat. please.  

1
 Yorkiebar 10 May 2020

Oh, and as an aside, it seems that I do need to eat my hat, as whilst the PM didn't mention climbing specifically, he did get a mountaineering reference into his speech

 SDM 10 May 2020
In reply to krikoman:

> Just out of curiosity how long does the virus stay viable on gritstone, limestone, or rhyolite?

> Is it the same for each rock type?

Nobody knows. There have been a few studies looking at the survival of the virus on various surfaces over time but the results of the studies I have seen have contradicted each other and the quality of the work was questionable.

In reply to Paul Sagar:

> Personally I’m quite relaxed about the idea of reputational damage to climbing in anything mode than the short term. This time next year access agreements to non-sensitive sites will not seriously be jeopardise...

I imagine it’s the sensitive sites that are more of a concern on that front though, and the owners of those sites may be less relaxed than you. Hard to know until it’s too late.

But yes, non-sensitive ones are, by definition, less likely to be impacted. 

 johnl 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Could I just point out that on Portland the locals opinions of climbers is already at rock bottom, not helped by the hoards of visitors from afar when lockdown started. Considering some of the meatheads that live in the houses around the popular parking spots, don't expect to find your car in the same condition as when you left it.

2
 blackcat 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:Just hope when boris says you can drive to excercise,he doesnt mean drive to your nearest park/playing fields which might be a few miles away from your home.

 planetmarshall 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

So, is the reason most people haven't been going climbing just down to obeying the government guidelines?

Looking back, the BMC announced their "Time to put it on hold" policy on 23rd of March - the same day as the lockdown. At that point, the daily number of deaths in England due to COVID-19 according to the NHS was around 150. I seem to remember the policy largely being supported by UKC forum users (though could be wrong).

Today, though the data is yet to be confirmed, the number of deaths after seven weeks of lockdown is hovering at around the 250 mark (in England, according to the NHS). Yet now the prevailing attitude seems to be "screw the BMC, I'm going climbing". What's changed? Is it just lockdown fatigue?

1
 Yanis Nayu 10 May 2020
In reply to mountainmanBFC:

This situation seems to have highlighted a doom-mongering, negative tendency in people to apparently revel in the shitness of the situation we’re in. It’s pissing me off. If I’m one of the more optimistic and hopeful people we’re f*cked, because I’m a proper miserable tw*t!

3
 planetmarshall 10 May 2020
In reply to krikoman:

> Just out of curiosity how long does the virus stay viable on gritstone, limestone, or rhyolite?

No one really knows as the survival of the virus under such conditions is not really of enough major interest to justify a study. I think though it's likely to be vastly less than the length of time it can survive on artificial surfaces under laboratory conditions, for which the upper bound is about 72 hours.

 mik82 10 May 2020
In reply to ianstevens:

A distance guideline would be useful -and quite easy to enforce if needed

Unfortunately being in Wales I can't drive anywhere anyway!

 Yorkiebar 10 May 2020
In reply to planetmarshall:

Exactly. If the BMC / UKC / MRT advice is anything other that "It's still not OK to go climbing" then their original advice was ill-thought out since nothing has changed since then. At no point has the government banned (or un-banned) climbing.

12
 allarms 10 May 2020
In reply to planetmarshall:

My opinion hasn't changed. I've continued to climb when I felt it was appropriate. 

I'm capable of making my own judgements.

It is staggering the number of people waiting for the all clear from the BMC or the UKC hivemind.

54
TheClimbingWallCritic 10 May 2020
In reply to krikoman:

Guessing you won’t be going climbing on Wednesday?

2
 Mark Stevenson 10 May 2020
In reply to ianstevens:

> You’ve actually always been allowed to drive for exercise - but the distance has never been specifically stated. I’d like to see something more specific than “local” - either defined by distance or travel time.

Exactly.

In comparison to the UK, both Ireland and France have been crystal clear on the issues of travel with very specific rules and precise distances specified. 

I did think Wales was going to be clearer on this issue, but the First Minister was equally vague on guidance on travel for exercise - the wording was that travel was only permitted if it was not "a significant distance" from home. 

2
 Luke90 10 May 2020
In reply to Yorkiebar:

> If the BMC / UKC / MRT advice is anything other that "It's still not OK to go climbing" then their original advice was ill-thought out since nothing has changed since then. At no point has the government banned (or un-banned) climbing.

What a ridiculous position. Of course the government didn't get specific about banning climbing, just like they didn't get specific about all kinds of individual activities. They gave advice which was incompatible with climbing for the vast majority of people and the vast majority of people respected that. Now the advice has clearly changed in significant ways.

2
 mark s 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Yes

Im on nights wednesday so i will be climbing. 

1st thing bj has done i agree with 

19
 kevin stephens 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Lots of jumping the gun on this thread

From Wednesday, people in England will be able to spend more time outdoors "for leisure purposes"

They can "take more and even unlimited amounts of outdoor exercise" rather than only exercising once a day

People will also be free to sit in parks

And they'll be able to "play sports" - although what types are not yet specified - with family members

But social distancing rules - keeping at least two metres away from people outside your household - must still be followed

Lets see what the details are tomorrow.  A TV report showing hundreds of cars parked at Stanage Edge and hundreds of people climbing and just one broken ankle is sure to bring out the pitchforks

3
 DoctorYoghourt 10 May 2020
In reply to allarms:

> My opinion hasn't changed. I've continued to climb when I felt it was appropriate. 

> I'm capable of making my own judgements.

> It is staggering the number of people waiting for the all clear from the BMC or the UKC hivemind.


Likewise, I've been climbing in local quarries minutes from my house.  Many of the climbs there won't have been touched for months.  I'd be as likely to be dictated to by the BMC as I would by a government. Which is to say not even slightly likely.

27
 Oceanrower 10 May 2020
In reply to AdrianC:

> Isn't that what we do normally?

> we're looking at large numbers of out-of-practice people 

I dont know about you but if I'd forgotten how to tie a bowline in less than two months, I'd be looking for another hobby...

4
 TCP 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

If you want to redpoint something on the big 3 limestone crags in North Yorks that out! But Boris says someone can increasingly put their toe in the water until they realise what they are doing is fine (whilst worrying a bit)

He is not ever going to tell you specifically that you could do what you have done or are doing. If its not fine you might get fined.

If you post what you did or might do on UKC expect to be attacked. The BMC will tell you after its widely excepted 'its ok' that you can do it. 

All the people who were attacking you (if you post it on here) will fall in last after you tried it out for them. 

It could go either way, but Boris is not likely to say its all fine at any point until its so much later that we all knew it by then. 

 brianjcooper 10 May 2020
In reply to ianstevens:

> Just stay alert then  

Thanks Ian. You made me laugh out loud.  Brilliant!  Have a like. 

Post edited at 21:08
 Si dH 10 May 2020
In reply to mik82:

> >The only change is that you're allowed to drive outside of your local area from Wednesday. 

> We'll wait and see what the guidance says, but I would expect that being able to drive will still mean locally. 

Quote "we want to encourage people to take more and even unlimited amounts of outdoor exercise. You can sit in the sun in your local park, you can drive to other destinations, you can even play sports, but only with members of your own household."

I think that's fairly unambiguous. If the restriction was to remain local then that would not be a change. You can already drive locally to exercise.

Personally I think the main point of this particular statement is probably precisely to encourage people to venture further afield. A lot of parks and beaches with high local population density could probably do with some relief. It makes no sense for the national parks to be empty.

Post edited at 21:02
1
 webbo 10 May 2020
In reply to Yorkiebar:

Remind me again in case I missed it which crags were you walking too.

5
 krikoman 10 May 2020
In reply to mark s:

 

> 1st thing bj has done i agree with 

He doesn't swallow though.

6
 Rob 10 May 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

I shall be heading onto some local Dartmoor crag with my recently dusted-off shunt. 

2
 Martin Haworth 10 May 2020
In reply to planetmarshall:

Whilst I don’t disagree with your sentiment, I’m not sure quoting current number of deaths is relevant. There is a lag of about 2 weeks between infection and death, so today’s death figures reflect what was happening 2 weeks ago.

Working in the opposite direction, today’s figure is probably suppressed by being a typical weekend under reporting figure.

1
In reply to krikoman:

> Knock yourself out mate. It's not really about climbing, it's about people thinking it's business as usual.

> We came into this game late, did a shit job of locking it down, and we're coming out the same time as the rest of Europe which did a much better job. See you in ICU in three weeks time.

I'm a 31 year old, normal BMI male, with no underlying health conditions. I've got more chance of ending up in the ICU from all the DIY I've been doing than coronavirus. Me abiding by the lockdown was never about protecting myself. I'm not at risk. 

48
 allarms 10 May 2020
In reply to webbo:

I think the reason you were ignored the first time is because whether or not someone walked to the crag has never been relevant.

7
 Yorkiebar 10 May 2020
In reply to Luke90:

> > If the BMC / UKC / MRT advice is anything other that "It's still not OK to go climbing" then their original advice was ill-thought out since nothing has changed since then. At no point has the government banned (or un-banned) climbing.

> What a ridiculous position. Of course the government didn't get specific about banning climbing, just like they didn't get specific about all kinds of individual activities. They gave advice which was incompatible with climbing for the vast majority of people and the vast majority of people respected that. Now the advice has clearly changed in significant ways.

Sorry, I was rather ambiguous. What I meant to say was that the BMC / UKC / MRT stance seemed to be that it was no longer "socially acceptable" for people to climb on their local crag. There was no need for them to make this statement with regard to travelling long distances to crags, because that was illegal anyway (not just socially unacceptable). Instead, the stance was because of the risk of increasing the burden on the NHS. Given that the number of daily deaths is higher now than when they made that statement, what is it that has changed? 

1
 andyb211 10 May 2020
In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

Oooh you are naughty, but I like you !!

1
 HannahC 10 May 2020
In reply to johnl: 

I’m concerned that if the climbers descend on Portland with little consideration for the community they will take matters into their own hands and just start chopping bolts.

I’ve regular weekend visiting throughout the winter when trad isn’t it but I’m certainly not planning to return in the near future.

While the law may become grey morally I find it difficult to justify now.  

2
 webbo 10 May 2020
In reply to allarms:

I suspect that yorkie has not  replied because they have no crags they can walk to other than the man made Boulder at Clifton moor and that’s banned as it’s in children’s play area.

So at the very least they are bending the rules/ guidelines  to suit themselves.

2
 Si dH 10 May 2020
In reply to planetmarshall:

> So, is the reason most people haven't been going climbing just down to obeying the government guidelines?

> Looking back, the BMC announced their "Time to put it on hold" policy on 23rd of March - the same day as the lockdown. At that point, the daily number of deaths in England due to COVID-19 according to the NHS was around 150. I seem to remember the policy largely being supported by UKC forum users (though could be wrong).

> Today, though the data is yet to be confirmed, the number of deaths after seven weeks of lockdown is hovering at around the 250 mark (in England, according to the NHS). Yet now the prevailing attitude seems to be "screw the BMC, I'm going climbing". What's changed? Is it just lockdown fatigue?

The trend is more important than the absolute value in this context.

I agree we need to be very cautious.

On 23rd March the infection rate was at the beginning of a rapid increase and we were staring down the barrel. That was already too late to take important action, which is why over 30000 people have died. Now, outside of care homes, the death rate has been falling consistently and is currently just over 200. If you look at graphs of deaths outside of care homes by date of death, not date of reporting, it is quite encouraging. You can see these on the NHS website daily.

In the meantime people (some more than others) have started to find lockdown is affecting their mental health. Those of us with family, lots of space, a garden and a home wall are lucky. Others aren't. My mum is 68 with asthma but lives alone and against my advice has recently been walking with a friend in a similar situation. For people like them, 6 weeks of isolation is really starting to hurt. I think the Govt realises it needs to do something to help people's mental health whilst limiting the risk of R rising as much as it can, because bluntly we are going to be socially distancing in this country for a long time now.

If we ignored the care home data, I think the Govt approach now is definitely justified. I think the huge question is whether they can get the care home situation under control and whether they can prevent a lot of infections passing in and out of homes if the wider population starts to move around a bit more again. Time will tell.

Off topic.

Edit: and in response to your first question, whether I actually go climbing or not is influenced by both Govt advice/regulation and by my own caution if within the regulations. Ultimately they have better information than we do so I'm not going to restrict my activities on behalf of the general populace if the Govt say I don't need to. However I think everyone should take account of their own situation and I won't be taking any infection risks at all due to family considerations. One person crags only for me.

Post edited at 21:41
 Lord_ash2000 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> Climbing from Wednesday?

Definitely for me provided I can climb alone which shouldn't be hard. 

Driving wise I'll probably stick to within an hour but that's more because I can't be arsed going further for a solo outing and I've plenty to do closer.

Mountain rescue wise, I'm happy with the risk of a reduced service, they are volunteers at the end of the day you get what you've given and event that's a bonus really.

BMC wise I think they need to change their advice pronto or face irrelevance as people on mass ignore them, and I've been a full individual member for most of the last 20+ years.

7
 ianstevens 10 May 2020
In reply to brianjcooper:

> Thanks Ian. You made me laugh out loud.  Brilliant!  Have a like. 

Glad to be of service!

 Andy Hardy 10 May 2020
In reply to krikoman:

> We came into this game late, did a shit job of locking it down, and we're coming out the same time as the rest of Europe which did a much better job. See you in ICU in three weeks time.

I really don't know why you've got 21 (and counting) dislikes for this simple statement of fact. This is a long game, if everyone goes back to normal this week we'll be further back than we are now. 

1
 Yorkiebar 10 May 2020
In reply to webbo:

> So at the very least they are bending the rules/ guidelines  to suit themselves.

As an aside, can you bend guidelines?

5
TheClimbingWallCritic 10 May 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

The only reason we did a shit job of locking down is because the words lockdown where never used and the Great British Public refused to be told what to do.

Every weekend when I’ve been for a walk, even mid week the streets have been busy, groups of people on the parks etc etc. 

That can’t be blamed on the government. That’s peoples raw stupidity and arrogance.

11
 Yorkiebar 10 May 2020
In reply to webbo:

> Given your profile says you live in York, I’m wondering which crags  you have been walking to to climb on.

Sorry mate, I took this the wrong way at first - but now that I see that the one and only route mentioned on your profile is in the North York Moors, I guess it was a genuine question about which crags you could have been walking to during the last 7 weeks? 

Sorry -  my bad! It's hard to keep one's profile up to date, isn't it? Not been in York in ages. Anyway, I hope you found some nice places.

3
 Andy Hardy 10 May 2020
In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

One of the reasons we did a shit job of lockdown is because de-Waffle will not accept that he has to make decisions. 

2
 Rockmonkey1977 10 May 2020
In reply to SDM:

I’d posit that even with the 2m social distancing rule common sense still should prevail. 2m in a poorly ventilated supermarket maybe necessary but briefly passing closely by someone, outdoors, is a different situation. Personally my outlook has changed a fair bit since reading a bit on the low probability of spreading the virus outside. The following link has some useful info for those who are interested. https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them?fbclid=IwAR...

 dinodinosaur 10 May 2020
In reply to kevin stephens:

Agreed, I feel we've got to be careful here not to jump the gun and go right back to normality, we've had two months in lockdown already, what's a couple more weeks not climbing and just seeing what happens?

I love climbing as much as anyone else on here but what I don't want to do is alienate locals and increase any covid risk just because I want to get outside at the very first moment available. 

3
TheClimbingWallCritic 10 May 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Even though he did make a decision? Which is why we have the furlough scheme protecting thousands of jobs? I’m not saying he did an amazing job but it’s very easy to look back and say he did a shit job when in actual fact everyone did a shit job. If people where so worried lock yourself down don’t wait to be told. Doesn’t exactly matter now so there’s no point arguing about it it just seems rediculous that people are always keen to say Boris did a shit job when I’m not entirely sure what else he could have done!!

19
 Little Rascal 10 May 2020

https://mobile.twitter.com/OliverDowden/status/1259554988419883008

"Now in tentative steps fwd, & in the least risky outdoor environments, we can imminently allow some sports activity like golf, basketball, tennis, fishing - solo/in households"

I'm not sure we are quite off the leash yet. 

1
 andrew roach 10 May 2020
In reply to Yorkiebar:

I am sure most MRT's are thinking more of practicality rather than what is socially acceptable.

There is a lot of enthusiasm shown here (I can't wait to get back on the rock itself), but this will unfortunately inevitably lead to accidents.  The last few weeks have seen massive changes to the protocols in which MRT's can operate.  If you have an accident, social distancing goes out of the window and you will have to get up close and very personal with possibly up to 20 people if a long stretcher carry off is needed - that applies to both casualties and rescuers.

Teams have been told that each member on an incident must be in full PPE, including whether travelling together in vehicles or on the hill, so firstly response times will inevitably be delayed. Like everybody else PPE is in very short supply. Most Teams will probably be able to deal with an incident, possibly with reduced resources.  If things get busy with multiple call outs (which previously were quite common), there simply will be no PPE for Team members to use. It is not for me to say what would then or then not happen.

I also think we have to be careful in how the government's announcement applies to climbing. You could quite happily social distance playing tennis for instance in your household group, but you wouldn't want to play with sweaty communal rackets that several other people have used!  As climbers we will leave a body trace on routes, whether it be sweat, blood or virus (that can live on hard surfaces), and chalked up hands hardly count as PPE!

It is only early May, let's make sure we have a good summer free of lockdowns, a couple weeks of being prudent now and being sensible will pay a good dividends later.  Let's see what full details come out in the next couple of days.

Post edited at 22:27
1
 webbo 10 May 2020
In reply to Yorkiebar:

I haven’t been climbing anywhere as I am prepared for short term pain for the long term gain. But clearly some people’s needs out way the rest of society’s well being. I think they are usually classed as sociopathic.

9
 Andy Hardy 10 May 2020
In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

He allowed 250,000 people to congregate at Cheltenham, and 3000 Athletico Madrid fans to spend a day in Liverpool, and God knows how many at the 6 nations. He wanted (and it looks like, still wants) "herd immunity" and only U-turned when the public got wind of the possibility of 250000 deaths. He does not do decisions based on science (as I understand it) he leaks an idea to his pals at the telegraph and sees how popular it is, then tweaks or abandons the idea to maximise his poll rating.

3
TheClimbingWallCritic 10 May 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

So he had a strategy, the herd immunity, which he, and all his advisors, agreed on (we’re not a dictatorship) and after a period of time realised that was not a viable option and implemented measure which people, and there’s people in this thread admitting to it, decided didn’t apply to them during the lockdown. So again, I ask, what more could he have done??

22
 David Staples 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

The weekend before lockdown the crags around Portland were packed. You would be unable to observe social distancing if they are like that again.

1
 Andy Hardy 10 May 2020
In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

He could have

1. Locked down properly 3 weeks sooner

2. Quarantined arrivals from abroad at the same time

3. Tested everyone who had symptoms, and tracked and traced rated everyone who they had been in contact with over the previous fortnight. Quarantined anyone who tested positive

4. Provided the NHS and care homes with enough of the correct grade PPE

A bit like all those other countries, that are now coming out of lockdown with 1/10 the death toll we've got.

3
 Dom Goodwin 10 May 2020
In reply to Little Rascal:

While this (arguably) may be sensible, I think they are going to find it hard to dial back from the earlier statement by Boris without any qualification that unlimited outdoor exercise, including sport is not only ok, but to be encouraged.

I guess different people will form their own opinions. If some are more reluctant to venture out than others, that may be no bad thing - a gradual return to climbing and other outdoor activities seems preferable to a sudden opening of the floodgates. Also, many will still feel constrained by a lack of local climbing or not living with other climbers.

 Myfyr Tomos 10 May 2020
In reply to andrew roach:

Yes, the practicality of a protracted rescue now would be incredibly complicated. Some teams in North Wales are down to half their membership due to various Covid restrictions. My team would probably need to bring in neighbouring teams for any long carry off with the added risks that would entail and the need for extra PPE, cleaning and disinfecting of clothing, equipment and vehicles just adds to the load at a difficult time.

TheClimbingWallCritic 10 May 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Hindsight is a wonderful thing as is being able to see into the future. Boris had his herd immunity scheme hence why we didn’t lockdown sooner.

point 2 100% agree. I genuinely thought we already where and was gobsmacked to find out we had only just started doing this

ye we should’ve tested earlier but it appears we didn’t have testing kits till 3 weeks ago!

PPE will always be an issue whichever side on the like/hate Boris fence you sit. Yes we should’ve had more but I don’t think anyone could have predicted this happening or on the scale it has happened.

why should we do the same as other countries? Mainly European countries which we made a big statement of saying we didn’t want to be associated with. Hence Brexit!

25
OP Paul Sagar 10 May 2020
In reply to David Staples:

I know, I was there on the Sunday. The thing is, people could have observed social distancing with just a little bit of effort. But at that point nobody seemed to be making the effort (apart from me and my partner, who were getting infuriated by people making no effort, or so we felt). I do wonder, however, if after 7 weeks of lockdown people will a) make more of an effort, b) will feel emboldened to ask others to make an effort.

Also remember that the best indications at present are that you have to share space with someone for 15minutes, indoors, to be likely to catch the virus. Belaying on the next line over from somebody, in the outdoors, is not high risk.

As for the Portland locals and their dislike of climbing - I wonder if their tune might change if the climbers stopped buying things from their co-ops, pints in their pubs, etc...Not much of an economy down there, even before this crisis hit. As far as I'm aware, climbers have not acted particularly anti-socially towards Portland locals (correct me if I'm wrong). So the anti-climber sentiment seems mostly to be "oooh errr, they're not local are they?" For which, cry me a river. And given those cliffs are all on public access land (correct me if I'm wrong?) I don't see what they can do other than, as somebody suggested above, commit illegal acts of vandalism by attacking people's cars. (Non-climber locals aren't going to chop bolts; they wouldn't know how.)

6
 Alkis 10 May 2020
In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

Except we used to have enough PPE or contracts to get enough PPE and Cygnus HAD predicted this situation and raised all of these issues. So, yes, who could have predicted this, why, yes, the previous conservative government that the current PM was a member of.

 Nick Bullock 10 May 2020
In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

"PPE will always be an issue whichever side on the like/hate Boris fence you sit. Yes we should’ve had more but I don’t think anyone could have predicted this happening or on the scale it has happened."

Below is a section taken from The Economist interview with Epidemiologist Larry Brilliant:

The Economist: For years you have warned about the possibility of a new global pandemic. Has covid-19 emerged in the way that you predicted?

Larry Brilliant: Sadly, yes. There's no credit for predicting this. In fact, probably 30 or 50 or all the infectious-disease epidemiologists in the world predicted this almost precisely.

The whole interview, which is very interesting and informative and proves a pandemic like this was forecast years ago can be read here... https://www.economist.com/open-future/2020/04/04/how-society-can-overcome-c...

TheClimbingWallCritic 10 May 2020
In reply to Nick BullockNick Bullock:

Interesting read. Would be good to know how they predict this type of event seeing as it stemmed from eating a bat!!

He says he predicted this precisely? I would suggest that is stretching the truth ever so slightly.

29
 Alkis 10 May 2020
In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

Ah, ok, you had me for a second. Between the bizarre Brexit statement and this, it's obvious you're just pulling our leg. Well played man!

TheClimbingWallCritic 10 May 2020
In reply to Alkis:

You've lost me.

1
 BestPractice 10 May 2020
In reply to Sl@te Head:

... and no bloody top roping! 

 Nick Bullock 10 May 2020
In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic

I suspect he predicted it, like many other Epidemiologists predicted it, because its what they have dedicated their lives to studying and working on.

I believe its well known amongst people who know about this stuff that Bats carry a whole host of different Coronavirus that can jump to other animals and then be passed to people, so not really a surprise.

He says he predicted this precisely? I would suggest that is stretching the truth ever so slightly

Watch his TED talk from 2006, he predicts it there, or listen to the podcasts or read the many interviews. A pandemic like the one we are now experiencing has been number one on the, what we need to protect the country against list (or whatever the official title), for a while, its even above terrorism. Sorry, it's too late for me to trawl for the report to give you the link. Here is the TED talk with Larry Brilliant from 2006. https://www.ted.com/talks/larry_brilliant_my_wish_help_me_stop_pandemics?la...

TheClimbingWallCritic 10 May 2020
In reply to Nick BullockNick Bullock:

Ta. Interesting stuff 

 Nick Bullock 10 May 2020
In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

Yeah, fascinating... Larry Brilliant is a cool guy, he's done so much good and remains very humble... this is a great and recent podcast which is very informative...

Cheers, Nick

https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101876841/this-epidemiologist-who-warned-of-...

 C Witter 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

The statement from Johnson was really concerning. The Tory party are desperate to end furlough payments and to force people back into work, at any cost. That was my take home message. I didn't hear anything about climbing: only about forcing working-class people back into unsafe working environments and risking a second wave of infections in the process. Given the government's awful record on NHS PPE and the general lack of testing, how will they deliver in any meaningful way on their assurances that work places will be safe?

In terms of the climbing community, this feel good feeling carrot comes with the stick of it being intimated that they will soon be trying to take away government support for workers and businesses. This will be awful for the climbing sector, where many people are precariously employed, self-employed or running small businesses and where work is going to be depressed for at least the rest of the year and probably longer (especially if we end up with a second wave of infections).

Then there is the fact that "stay at home" briefly gave united purpose to this fractious, deeply unequal, post-Brexit Britain. Johnson has just put an end to that. Even here, we see people taking different sides on the debate, with some saying "wait for the BMC", others "f*ck the BMC", others still planning trips to the Lakes (where outsiders will be deeply unwelcome in the eyes of many) whilst the Welsh and Scottish governments fortify their borders.

What an unmitigated disaster.

8
 Skyfall 10 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I find this thread hugely disappointing.  After all the deaths and the vast majority of the population doing the right thing, businesses continuing to be in crisis, all it seems a lot of you want to do is find an excuse to be able to go climbing again.  

Unless, I’m missing something, for most of us that will still be a step too far.  I’m not saying that from any medical knowledge of course, but just in terms of abiding by the spirit of what we should / should not be doing.  If we all rock up at Stanage/Tremadog/Shepherds that’s clearly wrong and will not be appreciated by the locals or local authorities.  For those of us not in the front line, if there’s anything we should be doing, it’s working out how to keep the economy going and people employed, not enjoying our hobbies.  

Clearly there will be a time and that may differ for our individual circumstances, but this thread displays such selfishness I’m pretty staggered.

Post edited at 23:55
17
 Robert Durran 10 May 2020
In reply to Luke90:

> > If the BMC / UKC / MRT advice is anything other that "It's still not OK to go climbing" then their original advice was ill-thought out since nothing has changed since then. At no point has the government banned (or un-banned) climbing.

> What a ridiculous position. Of course the government didn't get specific about banning climbing, just like they didn't get specific about all kinds of individual activities. They gave advice which was incompatible with climbing for the vast majority of people and the vast majority of people respected that. Now the advice has clearly changed in significant ways.

And as far as I can see all that has changed is that, with driving permitted and time outside unlimited, the guidelines are now compatible with more people climbing. Social distancing rules have not changed. So I actually think Yorkie is correct. If anything it would make sense for the BMC/UKC?MRT to be even more strongly against climbing since the only rational reason to have been against it in the first place was to protect the MRT's and with more people potentially climbing within the guidelines, they need more protection. I think they may have dug themselves into a bit of a hole - if climbing wasn't ok when so few people could do it that social distancing would have been quite easy, how can it be ok when loads of people are doing it?

Post edited at 00:09
2
 Luke90 10 May 2020
In reply to Skyfall:

> I find this thread hugely disappointing.  After all the deaths and the vast majority of the population doing the right thing, businesses continuing to be in crisis, and all it seems a lot of you want to do is find an excuse to be able to go climbing again.

Are you really disappointed that a load of climbers are keen to go climbing?!

> For those of us not in the front kind, if there’s anything we should be doing, it’s working out how to keep the economy going and people employed, not enjoying our hobbies.

Are those two entirely distinct things? Does the money we spend on our hobbies not contribute to the economy?

14
 Misha 10 May 2020
In reply to Bouldering Ben:

> If you can make it to the English border without getting caught then you’re free to drive and exercise!!


What's your reasons for travel, sir/madam?

I'm emigrating to England.

2
 Misha 11 May 2020
In reply to Dom Goodwin:

> He said that sport is allowed, provided it is with members of your own household. It's true that climbing does not satisfy the normal definition of sport

Will lots of traditionalists suddenly declare that climbing is a sport after all and that having climbing in the Olympics is a great idea? I say in jest...

4
 Luke90 11 May 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

I can half understand what you're saying but it strikes me as a really perverse argument. You might think that protecting MRTs was the "only rational reason" for the BMC's original advice, I'm not sure I agree. I certainly think you have to twist logic a lot to start your post by saying that the new guidelines are quite compatible with climbing and finish by saying this should make the BMC more opposed.

2
 Alkis 11 May 2020
In reply to Misha:

Take screenshots for future use if they do. 

Post edited at 00:09
 Misha 11 May 2020
In reply to krikoman:

> Cue a massive spike in two weeks time and another lockdown, in three weeks.

May be so but it's not going to be due to people heading to the outdoors with household members. It could be due to people having picnics etc with non-household members in parks etc. It could well be due to more people being encouraged to go to work and using public transport as a result.

I think the climbing community has been unduly harsh on itself. Our contribution to R is going to be tiny and that goes for all outdoor sports. Realistically, the main areas for infection are going to be household, workplace, public transport and shops. The government is simply recognising that the risk of outdoor transmission is low. In fact as long as people go out with their households, the risk is near zero in most scenarios.

In reply to Misha:

> I think the climbing community has been unduly harsh on itself. Our contribution to R is going to be tiny and that goes for all outdoor sports. Realistically, the main areas for infection are going to be household, workplace, public transport and shops. The government is simply recognising that the risk of outdoor transmission is low. In fact as long as people go out with their households, the risk is near zero in most scenarios.

Completely agree, and the BMC have some blame to accept imo. They set the tone early on, and I think it was misjudged. I still don't think climbing even met the criteria to be disallowed from the initial COVID legislation. They should have set out guidelines to ethically climb during a pandemic. 

10
 Robert Durran 11 May 2020
In reply to Luke90:

> I certainly think you have to twist logic a lot to start your post by saying that the new guidelines are quite compatible with climbing and finish by saying this should make the BMC more opposed.

I'm not twisting the logic - I'm being entirely logical. Nothing has changed in the guidelines about climbing as such, so why should the BMC advice change if there were good reasons for it in the first place? And indeed all that has changed is that more people are now able to climb within the guidelines, so social distancing is more likely to be a problem and MRT call outs more likely.

 Misha 11 May 2020
In reply to krikoman:

> See you in ICU in three weeks time.

Well, it depends. If someone is at high risk of catching the virus, for example working in a hospital, care home or a busy workplace such as a supermarket, yes they might end up catching it. Or if someone is breaking the rules and socialising with non-household members, again there's a risk there. Whether or not they go hill walking or climbing with household members isn't going to impact that.

Whereas if someone is working at home (or furloughed) and lives alone or with household members who are also working at home (or furloughed) and their only contact with other people is going to the supermarket and the petrol station, I would venture that their risk of catching Covid is low. Whether or not they go hill walking or climbing with household members isn't going to impact that.

In reply to Misha:

> Well, it depends. If someone is at high risk of catching the virus, for example working in a hospital, care home or a busy workplace such as a supermarket, yes they might end up catching it. Or if someone is breaking the rules and socialising with non-household members, again there's a risk there. Whether or not they go hill walking or climbing with household members isn't going to impact that.

Maybe he wasn't talking about the virus, and just thinks I'm shit at tying knots. 

 Luke90 11 May 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Nothing has changed in the guidelines about climbing as such, so why should the BMC advice change if there were good reasons for it in the first place?

As I see it, the main purpose of the BMC guidance was to suggest how the government's generalised guidance could reasonably be applied to climbing specifically. Thus, as the government's guidance eases, I would expect the BMC's to follow. The BMC going their own way and pushing for stricter restrictions than the government suggest wouldn't be their role, in my opinion.

Having said that, I'll certainly listen carefully to anything MR or the BMC have to say.

 pec 11 May 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> 2. Quarantined arrivals from abroad at the same time

Between Jan 1st and when lockdown started 18million people entered the UK. If we'd locked down a bit sooner maybe 15 million would have entered.

How exactly do you suppose you could quarantine that many people?

 Misha 11 May 2020
In reply to Little Rascal:

> "Now in tentative steps fwd, & in the least risky outdoor environments, we can imminently allow some sports activity like golf, basketball, tennis, fishing - solo/in households"

> I'm not sure we are quite off the leash yet. 

Thanks for finding that. I guess that might mean climbing and hill walking aren't off the hook yet - although of course competent climbers should be able to get the risk of injury down to a negligible level, say similar to cycling which are already 'allowed'.

 Dom Goodwin 11 May 2020
In reply to Rockmonkey1977:

Yes, this is a very good link, saw it a while ago.

For those who can't be arsed with a link to a long article, the uptake is that someone coughing, sneezing or singing at you with COVID is very bad news. Sitting in close proximity is also not great, the closer and the longer, the worse. Passing someone briefly in the street has far less danger.

I've also seen other articles suggesting that outdoor transmission is far less likely than indoors and transmission from surfaces less likely than close proximity to someone.

My take is that we should be far more concerned by other people close by (especially if for prolonged periods) than about touching holds etc.

I will be taking it as a given that I could infect or be infected by a climbing partner - I think realistically, that is difficult to avoid. (Though anyway current advice is household only.) But for sure, I will be keeping away from anyone else and hope others will do the same.

Post edited at 00:58
 Misha 11 May 2020
In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

In the last 20 years we've had SARS, MERS, swine flu and avian flu. All animal derived respiratory viruses. Then you have a whole bunch of other animal derived viruses - Ebola and HIV for example. It doesn't take an epidemiologist to work out that one day we were due a nasty one which would be both pretty infections and pretty lethal for certain sections of the population (often viruses are one or the other, for example Ebola and HIV are highly lethal (HIV less so these days as we've found drugs to suppress it) but they don't spread as easily; the common cold spreads easily but is not serious).

 Misha 11 May 2020
In reply to Skyfall:

Yeah but climbing is kind of a selfish activity. Most sport is, after all. Most people are not responsible for working out what they can do to get the economy going because it's not within their gift. Most people just go to work (if they can) or work from home (if they can). May be buy something online but that's got its own issues as it involves warehouse and postal workers having to handle it and who knows whether they have proper SD wherever they are based (i.e. are you putting other people at risk).

The government has recognised that outdoor activities are relatively low risk, so it's not more selfish to get back outdoors than at any other time. Just because some people have lost their jobs and some people are in hospital, which is all very sad of course, doesn't mean that other people can't go out and enjoy themselves and support their physical and mental wellbeing, as long as people do that in a responsible manner. Obviously have to see the guidance etc and it's limited to household members.

3
 Misha 11 May 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

There is no way the UK could have locked down 3 weeks earlier. There were few (known) cases in the UK at the time and it would have been a week before Italy's nationwide lockdown (they had locked down 10 towns around the same time, may be a bit earlier). There simply wouldn't have been a national consensus for a lockdown. Italy locked down 2 weeks before us, France one week before us. That, plus the mounting number of cases and deaths in the UK, made the idea of lockdown more palatable - in fact in the week running up to our lockdown a lot of people / papers starting saying we should do it. We could have locked down a week earlier, same as France. Just after Italy would have been possible but pushing it I think. Three weeks earlier - I just can't see that.

What they could have done is urged people to work from home and vulnerable to shield themselves 2 - 3 weeks earlier. As well as getting ready on the PPE and testing side of things much earlier - that's been the real scandal.

1
 Misha 11 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

The new rules explained:

Can I go climbing?

No, you must go to work instead, unless you can work from home or your workplace is closed whether or not you've been furloughed or you've been otherwise told not to go to work whether or not you've been furloughed - in all of those cases, don't go to work, but otherwise go to work.

Whatever you do, don't use public transport and walk or cycle instead, whether or not that's feasible, but we will run public transport so people can use it, but you shouldn't, unless you need it to go to work, which you must do, unless you must not as outlined above, but don't use public transport although it will be available in case you have to even though you shouldn't.

If you're in a vulnerable group, which you may or may not be aware of because we may or may not have told you about it, you must not do anything other than watch TV, which you may or may not choose to do. Make sure you don't go to work or use public transport because you should be watching TV instead, unless you are not watching TV, in which case don't go to work and don't use public transport either, but you can make cheese on toast.

Ok but can I go climbing? See above about going to work, or not, and using public transport, or not. You can have a picnic in a park, unless you need to go to work, except if you don't, but in any case don't use public transport, unless you really have to, in which case you should try not to use it anyway.

Right, but that doesn't answer my question, can I go climbing? You must go to work, unless you must not for the reasons stated above, but you must not use public transport, with the exception of the situations outlined above.

FFS, can I go climbing??? Be alert and watch out for the virus. And don't you public transport, unless you do use it.

5
 Misha 11 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

On a serious point, the Guardian front page article has this:

People will also be allowed to meet one other member of another household at a time outdoors, either while exercising or sitting down, according to government sources... People will be able to meet and sit down with a single other person outdoors as long as they stay two metres apart.

If that ends up being in the guidance, that would make a big difference to people who don't have a household climbing partner. Of course there is still SD and risk level to negotiate and this is where the BMC paper with its guidance on risk levels and SD becomes relevant.

If outdoor activities with non-household people are indeed permitted, it would be advisable to stick to climbing with the same person until such time as restrictions are lifted further. Ideally someone who is at low risk of picking up the infection, eg working from home.

Post edited at 02:27
1
 Speed Reed 11 May 2020
In reply to allarms:

Having a plan and sticking to it is not staggering.What is staggering is that you think that you can make up and or adjust/amend your actions based upon your own judgement.In that way we could all do the hell whatever we want at anytime whenever because it is self justified.Sorry pal but you need to have a word with yourself.However if you can up with an absolute watertight defence of your actions and the direction that the authorities should take based on hard factual evidence and your obviously unlimited experience in this field I am all ears. Obviously goes without saying but take care when you do go climbing as a trip to the hospital is the last place you want to be going right now.

9
 steve taylor 11 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar et al:

This is all very depressing.

Johnson has spaffed-out another rambling speech. As a result many people on here think they have carte-blanche to travel unlimited distances across England to climb. Be aware that there are fishing, golf, cycling, walking, caving etc. forums where thousands of people are coming to the same conclusions. As a result the roads will be chock-full of people next weekend heading out in their "household groups", driving hundreds of miles, to enjoy their first taste of freedom in 2 months.

Hardly anyone has said "let's wait to see what this 50-page document" coming out today has to say, despite the fact that Johnson has consistently talked bollocks throughout this pandemic and his government have had to mop up behind him after one of his ill-prepared speeches.

You're also dishing out grief to the BMC and UKC (yes - the people who give you this platform for free to spout your opinions) before they have had the time to respond in a controlled/though-out manner.  

Hold your horses - wait for the details. Whatever you do - don't end up in hospital.

13
 JMarkW 11 May 2020
In reply to steve taylor:

> This is all very depressing.

> Johnson has spaffed-out another rambling speech. As a result many people on here think they have carte-blanche to travel unlimited distances across England to climb.

I think some will Steve, but the fact that we are we even talking about it means most will try and make some small local tentative  steps back to local climbing? I hope.

That's what I'm planning on anyway. Local and quiet.

 LakesWinter 11 May 2020
In reply to steve taylor:

Yes, if people are to be allowed to travel to exercise outside, the distance should be limited and defined by the government  to say 25 miles from home and this should be made clear to the country. It would be crazy if the lakes for example had people driving there from even as far as Lancaster. That's just going to increase transmission through social interactions in shops etc. 

4
In reply to JMarkW:

> I think some will Steve, but the fact that we are we even talking about it means most will try and make some small local tentative  steps back to local climbing? I hope.

> That's what I'm planning on anyway. Local and quiet.

Hopefully you will adopt that sensible approach to climbing and drive locally, select a very quiet crag and if there is tiny sniff of distancing being compromised in any way, you bail and return home to try again another day.

I have been pretty disappointed on the attitudes of some on here.  Krikoman has had his critics but I pretty much agree with what he has been saying.  It's just climbing/walking etc that we do, a hobby.  Your life, despite what you might think, does not depend on it.  Other peoples lives, quite literally, very much depend on the actions of us all and so I fear the announcement yesterday will have dangerous consequences 4-6 weeks from now. The hills will be there after this has passed, as they have been for millions of years.  Its been a few weeks since we were restricted, and restricted is what it has been, not locked down completely.  Steve Taylor above is correct too.  Why not just wait, rather than spot any chink and then say, feck the rest of the country, I'm off to do what I like.  You are now allowed to cycle as far as you want and for as long as you want, it would seem.

I'd love to drive for 3 hours to The Lakes/Peak this weekend but its just not sensible, or fair, right now to do so.  The risk of outside transmission may be smaller, but that doesnt remove the risk entirely, especially at pinch points.  And you still have to fill up the car, still have to shop for lunch, still have the potential to cross contaminate or be contaminated.

UKC is mainly a home for the more intelligent and caring amongst the population, I feel, and yet there are many who are just out for themselves.  Ironically, they mainly despise the Tories for being just out for themselves and their kind.  

What's even more concerning about this announcement yesterday is that given the UKC intelligence there is also a large proportion who take a 'f*ck you' attitude to doing what you want or feel entitled to do; what do you think will happen amongst the general population?  The weather is set fair for the weekend. I wonder what Skegness will be like, Matlock Bath, Hathersage, Birchen.......and on and on.  

Post edited at 08:44
10
 Dark-Cloud 11 May 2020
In reply to LakesWinter:

The Lakes has had people driving to it from country wide already, this latest vague "guidance" is only going to make things worse.

2
 Michael Gordon 11 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Since most people go climbing with people they don't live with, in reality the PM's announcement just means that a small proportion will be able to go climbing. I'd have thought this was obvious. 

2
 steve taylor 11 May 2020
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Fully agree - my post is somewhat toned-down from what I want to say to some of those who have posted.

Looking forward to the published details today from the government.

Le Sapeur 11 May 2020
In reply to Yorkiebar:

> And, I genuinely feel sorry for people in Wales and Scotland

We feel sorry for you too.

 JMarkW 11 May 2020
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

When do I expect to climb go outdoors again then?

I have heard the phrase "after the virus".

That will never exist. 

I specifically said local and quiet and although you acknowledged this you still felt you had to put the guilt trip on me? 

I'm just trying to be sensible.

2
 Robert Durran 11 May 2020
In reply to Luke90:

> > Nothing has changed in the guidelines about climbing as such, so why should the BMC advice change if there were good reasons for it in the first place?

> Thus, as the government's guidance eases, I would expect the BMC's to follow. The BMC going their own way and pushing for stricter restrictions than the government suggest wouldn't be their role, in my opinion.

All I am saying is that if the BMC change their line now, they would be being inconsistent with previous line. 

3
 steve taylor 11 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I'm surprised (unless I missed it) that people aren't looking to climb with people outside their household, but claim to maintain a 2-metre gap? I mean, it's no different to having a socially distanced picnic, isn't it?

(obvs not being serious - please don't try this at a crag nowhere near you).

5
In reply to JMarkW:

> When do I expect to climb go outdoors again then?

That will be up to a mixture of your conscience and the government.

> I have heard the phrase "after the virus".

> That will never exist. 

When a vaccine is created or immunity is confirmed it will.

> I specifically said local and quiet and although you acknowledged this you still felt you had to put the guilt trip on me? 

Not at all and sorry if you took my comments to be directed at you, they weren't.  I just happened to respond to your text.

> I'm just trying to be sensible.

I read your post as being so, so for the record I apologise if you felt I was directing anything at you personally.

Post edited at 09:21
4
 AdrianC 11 May 2020
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Thanks for posting that - I was going to post something similar this morning but you've saved me the typing.

There's lots of potential here for the climbing community to make itself look irresponsible and selfish with all the long-term problems that this would bring for things like access.

6
 JMarkW 11 May 2020
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

No. I over reacted. Apologies. Its emotive.

4 other coronavirus, no vaccines. Yearly mutations. I dont see it ever. We just will have to manage it.

Regards

Mark

 Robert Durran 11 May 2020
In reply to Yorkiebar:

> And, I genuinely feel sorry for people in Wales and Scotland

As someone living in Scotland, and much as I am desperate to get out in the hills and to go climbing again, I think I am actually glad not to be in England. I suspect that there is going to be carnage next weekend with people (including climbers and walkers) travelling in England. I think Johnson has made a serious mistake by apparently allowing unlimited travel and I'm happy to be clear of it. It is obvious to me that the way forward is initially to have some sort of limit in distance.

4
 galpinos 11 May 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

> All I am saying is that if the BMC change their line now, they would be being inconsistent with previous line. 

Why? They said:

> Today, the message from the governments, mountain rescue teams, outdoor industry, local communities, police and doctors is very simple: stay local and only travel for essential purposes.

> The BMC advice to all climbers and hill walkers is now simple: climbing and hill walking are not activities requiring essential travel. Stay local, and put your climbing and hillwalking on hold. This applies to all types of climbing and mountain activities, from bouldering to ski mountaineering

The Government position started with the statement "Stay Home". It repeatedly said "only essential travel".

The BMC position seemed totally consistent with that.

The Government position has now changed, in an opaque manner consistent with the governments communications throughout this pandemic, and I expect the BMC's will too, as per their recovery plan.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmc-launches-covid19-recovery-plan-for-climbing--h...

Beating the BMC up for being 100% inline with the government guidance and the legislation is batty imho.

 Luke90 11 May 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

> All I am saying is that if the BMC change their line now, they would be being inconsistent with previous line. 

How so? The only possible inconsistency I can see is with your personal view that protecting MR was the "only logical reason" for the BMC's initial guidance to stop activities. I didn't see it that way and it certainly wasn't explicit in any of what the BMC said.

In reply to JMarkW:

> No. I over reacted. Apologies. Its emotive.

No probs. All cool.

> 4 other coronavirus, no vaccines. Yearly mutations. I dont see it ever. We just will have to manage it.

I'm not an immunologist so I'll defer to the experts here.

> Regards

> Mark

Cheers

Richard

 Robert Durran 11 May 2020
In reply to galpinos:

> > The BMC advice to all climbers and hill walkers is now simple: climbing and hill walking are not activities requiring essential travel. Stay local, and put your climbing and hillwalking on hold. This applies to all types of climbing and mountain activities from bouldering to ski mountaineering.

The problem is that this didn't make sense in the first place - it was supposed to be about non essential travel, yet they came out against all climbing, even bouldering ten minutes walk from the house or walking up a hill at your back door.

> The Government position started with the statement "Stay Home". It repeatedly said "only essential travel.

> Beating the BMC up for being 100% inline with the government guidance and the legislation is batty imho.

If the BMC now say that climbing is ok, I am simply saying that it would be inconsistent with their previous advice. What has changed that it is now ok to boulder ten minutes from your house or go up a hill at your backdoor if it wasn't previously?

 Hat Dude 11 May 2020
In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

> what more could he have done??

A bit more honesty wouldn't have gone amiss

3
 Robert Durran 11 May 2020
In reply to Luke90:

> How so? The only possible inconsistency I can see is with your personal view that protecting MR was the "only logical reason" for the BMC's initial guidance to stop activities. I didn't see it that way and it certainly wasn't explicit in any of what the BMC said.

So what do you think the BMC's reason for their blanket advice against all climbing and hill walking was then? My point is that they didn't have a good one and so are now in a bit of a hole as to what to say in light of the new government advice. 

Post edited at 09:29
4
 galpinos 11 May 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

> If the BMC now say that climbing is ok, I am simply saying that it would be inconsistent with their previous advice. What has changed that it is now ok to boulder ten minutes from your house or go up a hill at your backdoor if it wasn't previously?

The previous government advice was "Stay at Home". It now isn't (or doesn't appear to be). That's what has changed.

2
 Luke90 11 May 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

> So what do you think the BMC's reason for their blanket advice against all climbing and hill walking was then?

One of the key justifications was that for the overwhelming majority of their membership, climbing was incompatible with the spirit of the previous government guidance. The number of people in a position to boulder in a secluded location ten minutes walk from their house is miniscule and you can't base advice to a national membership organisation on those kinds of edge cases. I know some people lucky enough to be in that position who've taken advantage of it and I have no problem with that, but I think the BMC would have muddled and undermined their message if they'd tried to add "ifs, buts and maybes" to account for those rare lucky few.

 kevin stephens 11 May 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

> So what do you think the BMC's reason for their blanket advice against all climbing and hill walking was then? My point is that they didn't have a good one and so are now in a bit of a hole as to what to say in light of the new government advice. 


FFS the advice hasn't been released yet!  Wait until it's published at 14:00 today

 Alkis 11 May 2020
In reply to Luke90:

Plus people seem to be ignoring that the BMC came up with their statement after consulting with their legal advisers and the governments of the various parts of the UK. They didn't just randomly jump the gun and ban climbing.

1
 Phil79 11 May 2020
In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

> It's always worth thinking about MR organisations but my thought would be they are a voluntary organisation. They dont have to rescue anyone if they dont want to.

What an utterly f*****g ridiculous comment. 

Do you honestly think any member of any MR team will not go out on a call, because they 'don't want to' (for reason related coronavirus or not)?

What are they going to do, check to see if the people who need rescuing have driven to the area from miles away, before standing down : "sorry, not going out today!"?? 

I imagine there are frequent occasions they dont want to be out (middle of the night, just finished a shift, sat down for dinner, etc|) but they do it anyway, for a multitude of reasons.

      

2
 Robert Durran 11 May 2020
In reply to kevin stephens:

> FFS the advice hasn't been released yet!  Wait until it's published at 14:00 today

I was referring to their existing advice issued weeks ago.

 steveb2006 11 May 2020
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

> We've just been up to https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/crow_stones-20372 and taken a bouldering mat to do the really easy boulders. 

A nice spot but you would need a MR if you bust an ankle or similar - long way from road - a considertation.

5
 allarms 11 May 2020
In reply to Speed Reed:

> Having a plan and sticking to it is not staggering.What is staggering is that you think that you can make up and or adjust/amend your actions based upon your own judgement.In that way we could all do the hell whatever we want at anytime whenever because it is self justified.

This might shock you, but we really can do whatever we want based on our own judgement.

I really don't have anymore time for this, I'm going climbing.

21
 Robert Durran 11 May 2020
In reply to galpinos:

> The previous government advice was "Stay at Home". It now isn't (or doesn't appear to be). That's what has changed.

But it has always been ok to leave your home for exercise.

 Robert Durran 11 May 2020
In reply to Luke90:

> I think the BMC would have muddled and undermined their message if they'd tried to add "ifs, buts and maybes" to account for those rare lucky few.

Wouldn't "Don't drive and observe the social distancing measures" have been clear enough?

 Steve nevers 11 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Some things to consider.

- VE day saw a huge spike in A&E attendance due to drunken idiots fighting. Many staff are raging because of people exposing themselves.

- over the weekend infection and deaths rates in Bristol doubled.

- Germany relaxed rules a week or two ago.

Infection rate has spiked, with 60% of new cases coming from people in their own homes.

People are transmitting it to household members and deaths are increasing.

So go climbing if you want. But do it in the knowledge that you are a selfish idiot if you do.

33
 Steve nevers 11 May 2020
In reply to galpinos:

> The previous government advice was "Stay at Home". It now isn't (or doesn't appear to be). That's what has changed.

Only in England remember.

 Howard J 11 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

The original BMC advice came in the aftermath of huge crowds on Snowdon and other honeypots, and people were ignoring the rules on travel.  There was a justified fear that the NHS could be overwhelmed and that it would be irresponsible to engage in activities which could end in a trip to hospital.  It was probably appropriate at the time.

Since then, the rules on travel have been generally observed and people flouting them have been called out.  The wider NHS is not at capacity and is touting for business (I'm not suggesting it's OK to get injured).  If the guidelines are being widened there seems to be relatively little risk from being outdoors, but we do need to wait until the full details are issued later today, rather than rely on Boris's necessarily high-level announcement.

Nevertheless, based on what has already been said climbing may be permitted if it is in an acceptable distance from you home and you can find a partner within the guidelines.  In practice, social distancing at some venues may still be a problem, and there are hygiene issues to be addressed.  We will need to work out new ways of doing things, and I hope the BMC is looking at this.  The risk to long-term access is real and we should be sensitive to locals' concerns and avoid venues which are too close to people's homes.  The BMC must respond to the new guidelines promptly or risk being ignored

There is still an issue with mountain rescue.  A friend in an MRT posted a warning that rescue services will be greatly diminished - it will take longer to assemble a team and for them to get to the casualty, the level of care may be reduced, don't expect a helicopter except in life-threatening situations.  If you're only lost you'll be given directions and told to walk off, or to hunker down until daylight or the cloud lifts.  I don't know if this is official or simply his own assessment, but it seems realistic.  Basically, we're back to the 1960s or 70s where rescue is concerned, except the pubs aren't open to round up an ad hoc search party.  So we do need to be careful, not only for our own sake but for the sake of potential rescuers. 

 Dave Williams 11 May 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

> As someone living in Scotland, and much as I am desperate to get out in the hills and to go climbing again, I think I am actually glad not to be in England. I suspect that there is going to be carnage next weekend with people (including climbers and walkers) travelling in England. I think Johnson has made a serious mistake by apparently allowing unlimited travel and I'm happy to be clear of it. It is obvious to me that the way forward is initially to have some sort of limit in distance.

+1 (from a Welsh perspective. ) 

I also suspect that Welsh and Scottish police will soon be very busy as I can't see some elements of the general population (inevitably including some climbers) now having any respect whatsoever regarding the vastly different situations in both nations. Things are shortly going to become very difficult; any rational person can see that. The "them and us" attitude, which is already very prevalent in rural Wales, will now become even more entrenched. 

IMHO, the inexplicably divisive nature of this decision does not bode well for long term management of Covid-19 in the future either. Unfortunately, such a drastic divergence on management was always on the cards, as the UK government has a long track record of treating the devolved governments with total arrogance and contempt, (first with Brexit and again now with corona virus) . We are clearly no longer "in this together". 

I really hope that this divergence isn't yet a further example of the UK government's incompetence in handling this pandemic. At the moment, both vagueness and lack of clarification suggest to me that the early signs aren't at all encouraging....

The optimist in me wants to believe that perhaps England has got it right and the other 3 nations are being far too cautious. For the sake of everyone, I honestly hope that this is the case.

We probably won't have long to wait to find out one way or another. 

1
 Martin Haworth 11 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Dominic Raab was on the BBC this morning and said you could travel as far as you wanted to exercise or go to a park.

 I think the headlines at the weekend will be more about parks and beaches being overrun rather than climbing.

it seems that in England climbing such as bouldering on your own is going to be within the rules, and any sort of climbing with a household member.

However, let’s wait and see the detail.

There might also be a role for BMC to play in setting some advisory ground rules where there is a risk to future access or a risk to reputation of the climbing community.

 Mike Stretford 11 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> Climbing from Wednesday?

I suppose it is feasible for some .... maybe I could go bouldering with my non-climbing girlfirend*, but I would hate to get caught in a honey trap photo of climbers. I'm concerned anything feasible for me will mean locations many others will have thought of too.

I can't see me doing routes anytime soon, one of my climbing partners doesn't drive, I pick them up, so climbing with them is out.... and the tree hugger in me doesn't feel great about meeting to go climbing with my climbing partner who lives near me but both driving in separate cars. That's before we work out if climbing with a partner but keeping 2m away is feasible and within the guidelines.

* That's another thing , for some attached people. As my girlfriend has been cooped up as long as I have, there'll be a fairly reasonable request that we do something we both enjoy (walking). Until things open up more, me taking the car off for the day and leaving her at home would be unreasonable.

Obviously some are better placed to get out, just my perspective.

Post edited at 10:45
In reply to Steve nevers:

> - Germany relaxed rules a week or two ago.

> Infection rate has spiked, with 60% of new cases coming from people in their own homes.

> So go climbing if you want. But do it in the knowledge that you are a selfish idiot if you do.

The sad truth about this virus is that it's here to stay. We're going to have to start turning to normality, and just dealing with the deaths as they come. Until the vaccine is ready (4 years was the shortest ever vaccine. Average is 10 years. No previous coronavirus even has a vaccine..) the only way to actually stop this killing people is to get as many not at risk people infected, and shield the vulnerable. 

To me that indicates a scenario of letting out fit and healthy people to catch the disease, and locking away the old and people with preexisting conditions. 

Regularly do antibody tests to gauge the level of herd immunity, and release lockdown for the vulnerable based on that number. The vulnerable (basically old people) are also handily the least likely to be economically active, and able to isolate without bringing the economy to is knees. 

Everyone else can get the economy back on its feet. 

Yeah, it sucks that we're asking more of the old and the ill. But.. Well.... It's them that it kills. Shouldn't more be asked of them? If I was told there was a virus in the wild that specifically targets people with pale skin, I don't think I'd want everyone to put their life on hold to protect me. I'd just protect myself and let everyone else get on with it. 

I hope the days of blanket advice are over. When you look at the demographics of who this virus kills/hospitalises, it's clear who should and shouldn't be locked down.  

Post edited at 10:55
16
 Steve nevers 11 May 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

Full aware of that thanks.

Also fully aware that a vaccine is never coming.

But also have close friends that work as infection control nurses, also in ICUs. 

They are being confused by the mess of contradictory statements by the government, and when they use common sense and their expertise,  all expectations are for deaths to increase hugely.

The UK isn't even anyway near the end of the first wave. The government are using their own muddled hospital figures, not the complete picture.

Post edited at 10:52
7
 Martin Haworth 11 May 2020
In reply to Mike Stretford:

> *  As my girlfriend has been cooped up as long as I have, there'll be a fairly reasonable request that we do something we both enjoy (walking). Until things open up more, me taking the car off for the day and leaving her at home would be unreasonable.

Aftet being cooped up with me for 7 weeks the last thing my wife wants is to do something together. She would consider it unreasonable if I didn’t take the car and go climbing, thereby leaving her in peace for a while!

baron 11 May 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

How is locking down the BAME community going to pan out?

1
In reply to baron:

Of course, when I say 'locking down' I don't mean padlocking anyones doors. It'd be given as advice and guidance just like it has been done so far. If BAME people are more at risk than others, then apply the advice to them too. They can act on it, or not act on it, however they wish. It's their life. 

3
 Davidlees215 11 May 2020
In reply to JMarkW:

>

> 4 other coronavirus, no vaccines. Yearly mutations. I dont see it ever. We just will have to manage it.

I don't think anyone has ever seriously tried to produce a vaccine for any of the other coronavirus as they're not particularly harmful. 

From what I've read there's not been any major mutations to covid 19 so far but that could change especially once a vaccine is developed or drugs found to treat it as the virus will then need to mutate to survive but even that is very unknown. 

1
 Mike Stretford 11 May 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

> Aftet being cooped up with me for 7 weeks the last thing my wife wants is to do something together. She would consider it unreasonable if I didn’t take the car and go climbing, thereby leaving her in peace for a while!

Sure, it depends on the relationship. It wouldn't work for me until a time where she could meet her friends and do something, or be at work. She much prefers being in company to alone... even mine!!

EDIT: I should add, I've been out the house during the day for the last few weeks, she's well jel of that!

Post edited at 11:17
In reply to Steve nevers:

> The UK isn't even anyway near the end of the first wave. The government are using their own muddled hospital figures, not the complete picture.

Majority of deaths are in care homes now. Hospital deaths (aka general population deaths) have plummeted. Care homes are isolated institutions, which can be handed separate advice, protocols, etc. 

Don't need the entire public following the guidance. 

Some person living in a care home isn't going to be going rock climbing any time soon.. 

I hope the 50 page guidance being released today will have a significant part of it detailing the responsibilities of care homes, and their staff. 

6
 Bob Kemp 11 May 2020
In reply to kevin stephens:

> Lots of jumping the gun on this thread

> Lets see what the details are tomorrow.  A TV report showing hundreds of cars parked at Stanage Edge and hundreds of people climbing and just one broken ankle is sure to bring out the pitchforks

I just posted this in another thread:

https://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/news/18440013.cumbria-tourism-conti...

- please don't visit. I suspect many other areas will have advice issued from relevant bodies on similar lines. Looks like staying local will be the de facto position.

1
 Martin Haworth 11 May 2020
In reply to Mike Stretford:

Give it time, she’ll grow out of it.

I just had my 31st wedding anniversary, I got in trouble because apparently buying a card is classed as an essential purchase!

 PhilMW 11 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

So if climbing does become "allowed" again, will UKC open the logbooks again?

 planetmarshall 11 May 2020
In reply to Davidlees215:

> I don't think anyone has ever seriously tried to produce a vaccine for any of the other coronavirus as they're not particularly harmful. 

MERS and SARS, both extremely serious diseases, are caused by coronaviruses. MERS in particular has a fatality rate of around 35% should you be unfortunate enough to catch it - fortunately it is far less infectious than the virus that causes COVID-19

It is the same team at Oxford that are currently trialling a vaccine for the MERS virus who have developed a SARS-CoV-2 vaccine cadidate.

 mike123 11 May 2020
In reply to Misha: 

> The new rules explained:

> Can I go climbing?

> No, you must go to work instead, unless you can work from home or your workplace is closed whether or not you've been furloughed or you've been otherwise told not to go to work whether or not you've been furloughed - in all of those cases, don't go to work, but otherwise go to work.

> Whatever you do, don't use public transport and walk or cycle instead, whether or not that's feasible, but we will run public transport so people can use it, but you shouldn't, unless you need it to go to work, which you must do, unless you must not as outlined above, but don't use public transport although it will be available in case you have to even though you shouldn't.

> If you're in a vulnerable group, which you may or may not be aware of because we may or may not have told you about it, you must not do anything other than watch TV, which you may or may not choose to do. Make sure you don't go to work or use public transport because you should be watching TV instead, unless you are not watching TV, in which case don't go to work and don't use public transport either, but you can make cheese on toast.

> Ok but can I go climbing? See above about going to work, or not, and using public transport, or not. You can have a picnic in a park, unless you need to go to work, except if you don't, but in any case don't use public transport, unless you really have to, in which case you should try not to use it anyway.

> Right, but that doesn't answer my question, can I go climbing? You must go to work, unless you must not for the reasons stated above, but you must not use public transport, with the exception of the situations outlined above.

> FFS, can I go climbing??? Be alert and watch out for the virus. And don't you public transport, unless you do use it.

Well done , this has made me laugh out loud and should be copy and pasted to other social media for lots of people not on this website to read , now , remind me, what do they call when something spreads  rapidly on social media ? 

 ChrisBrooke 11 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I'll probably head out with my pad and find spots to climb, as I usually do, on my own, without seeing another soul. If I get to a car park and it's heaving, or a boulder and it's occupied, I'll move on or go home. Not a big deal as I never drive more than 10-15 mins at the most. 

[edit: I very rarely (pretty much never) climb at weekends, and mostly in the middle of the day, so don't see other climbers, even at the Peak's most popular spots]

Post edited at 11:57
 Steve nevers 11 May 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

Blah blah blah.

Government figures there matey. Even the ministers openly admit their dataset is incomplete or flawed.

Frontline staff have a much clearer idea, and they are off the view that infection is still increasing. Before these lockdown changes.

I'll say I again, as you seem to have missed it:

Germany are seeing a spike after lockdown changes, 60% of cases being infected in their own homes.

People like yourself that feel open to getting out are transmitting it to people at risk,in their own households.

But hey,believe Boris if you want, it's not like he's a proven idiot with a track record of not giving a single damn about anyone but himself.

12
 Misha 11 May 2020
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Haven’t yet looked at the detailed guidance but, as a general comment, the government seems to have recognised that the risk of outdoor transmission is limited. Clearly they have judged that it’s not a big transmission vector and indeed spreading people out from crowded city parks is not a bad idea.

The risk of transmission at petrol stations can be easily mitigated. There is no need to go to local shops for lunch. Interaction with locals will be minimal or zero - if you go straight to a parking area which is away from any habitation, who are you interacting with? Other people in the car park perhaps. Well if there’s someone in the car next to you, just choose a different bay if possible or wait till they’re done before getting out or get out from the other side.

We may see a rise in hospital admissions in 2-3 weeks but they would be primarily due to more people going back to work, as well as more people ignoring the restrictions generally and hanging out with groups of friends and family.

2
 Misha 11 May 2020
In reply to Steve nevers:

How is someone out climbing going to infect someone else? Other climbers via shared holds - possibly, the science is not clear on this; which is why the BMC has recommended some mitigating actions. Some people seem to have this idea that if someone goes walking or climbing they are going to infect someone. That’s just not true because it’s perfectly possible to go somewhere and have zero contact with locals and maintain SD with other outdoor activities enthusiasts (more so than in a busy city park).

As for infections going up, possibly so, locally. The number of people in hospital / ICU with Covid is certainly dropping, albeit not very quickly outside London.

1
 fred99 11 May 2020
In reply to Dom Goodwin:

> He said that sport is allowed, provided it is with members of your own household. It's true that climbing does not satisfy the normal definition of sport ….

Just a moment, the BMC gets money from the SPORTS Council, and climbing is now IN THE OLYMPICS.

The latter at least must define climbing as a sport.

1
 Howard J 11 May 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

>

> Some person living in a care home isn't going to be going rock climbing any time soon.. 

No, but some person working there might be.  

 Dom Goodwin 11 May 2020
In reply to fred99:

I think you'll find there are plenty of activities that get sports funding or are part of the olympics that don't fall under any normal definition of sports. For instance, activities such as chess and bridge have been known to apply for funding from organisations that fund sports. I certainly wouldn't regard either as sport, it's just that there's no better organisation to apply for funding from.

Sport: an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment.

Yes, you *can* try to make climbing a sport in certain circumstances, by setting up competitions etc. But it is not fundamental to the nature of climbing. I imagine like most people I have been climbing many times and there has never been any significant element of competition with other people, so in general it can't sensibly be regarded as a sport.

Climbing very clearly is not in general a sport based simply on the definition! However, it's a digression and I don't really think it influences whether climbing should currently be considered ok.

1
 Skip 11 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

If you're one of the lucky people who have a climbing partner living with you.

What about the poor bastards like myself who don't have such?

 Dell 11 May 2020
In reply to Yorkiebar:

> And, I genuinely feel sorry for people in Wales and Scotland

The dead ones? 

1
 gparn 11 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Guys this is mad. You're supposed to love climbing. You've been stuck in your houses for 7 weeks.

R is below 1 in England and scientific opinion is solidly behind outdoor activities being much safer than being indoors. 

You're told by people it's safe (and v clearly legal) to go climbing with members of your own household and you still don't want to? 

Post edited at 14:01
10
OP Paul Sagar 11 May 2020
In reply to gparn:

Christ, you sound like somebody who actually writes government advice for a living.

This is a forum for unsupported opinions and calling other people idiot murders, not climbing. Duh.

2
 ianstevens 11 May 2020
In reply to Skip:

Bouldering?

 snoop6060 11 May 2020
In reply to Skip:

I live with a climber and she has flat out refused to come climbing with me after wednesday and called me a selfish c**t for planning to do so. I guess her and I will have to agree to disagree on this one as I'm off the churnet on wednesday for a spot of easy bouldering. 

3
 euanmci 11 May 2020

Here's the key part from the government document. Presented without comment.....

"People may exercise outside as many times each day as they wish. For example, this would include angling and tennis. You will still not be able to use areas like playgrounds, outdoor gyms or ticketed outdoor leisure venues, where there is a higher risk of close contact and touching surfaces. You can only exercise with up to one person from outside your household – this means you should not play team sports, except with members of your own household.

People may drive to outdoor open spaces irrespective of distance, so long as they respect social distancing guidance while they are there, because this does not involve contact with people outside your household. When travelling to outdoor spaces, it is important that people respect the rules in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and do not travel to different parts of the UK where it would be inconsistent with guidance or regulations issued by the relevant devolved administration.

These measures may come with some risk; it is important that everyone continues to act responsibly, as the large majority have done to date. The infection rate will increase if people begin to break these rules and, for example, mix in groups in parks, which will trigger the need for further restrictions."

In reply to Howard J:

> No, but some person working there might be.  

You would hope people who work with vulnerable people would have the sense to isolate to a similar degree at the people they come into contact with. 

2
 Anoetic 11 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Well at least you can categorically go play tennis, golf, and go fishing Or swimming with members of your household if you are in England, and stay 2 metres apart.....now we wait for clarification on all the Outdoor stuff.....at least it’s a start.....

6
In reply to euanmci:

> You will still not be able to use areas like playgrounds, outdoor gyms or ticketed outdoor leisure venues, where there is a higher risk of close contact and touching surfaces. 

Hmmm. The touching surfaces bit could be interpreted to restrict climbing. 

8
In reply to Si dH:

> It makes no sense for the national parks to be empty.

The National Parks are not empty, people live in them.

1
 Blue Straggler 11 May 2020
In reply to snoop6060:

Do you get much exercise doing easy bouldering?

OP Paul Sagar 11 May 2020
In reply to euanmci:

I think that means climbing is now OK.

MISTER JAMES, TEAR DOWN THIS WA- er, I mean, OPEN UP THESE LOGBOOKS

Post edited at 14:45
5
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Not that relevant now outdoor sports and leisure time are allowed. 
How much exercise do you get from golf, for example? 

OP Paul Sagar 11 May 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

And you get sweet FA from fishing but I promise you that after I've been climbing on Weds and Thurs in a quiet part of Dorset (I've decided against antagonising the Portland locals) I'll be hitting the Walthamstow Lower Maynard Reservoir from dawn to dusk in search of my first carp of the year.

3
 Blue Straggler 11 May 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

Fair point. Is golf allowed, then?

 

 Blue Straggler 11 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I'll be working. 

2
OP Paul Sagar 11 May 2020
In reply to Blue Straggler:

I did so much research in the first 6 weeks of lockdown (the 7th, things fell apart somewhat) that I feel I've banked the time. Not least as didn't have my two week holiday in Kalymnos in April, so taking three days this week feels not unreasonable! (I will have 50 first year essays to come back home to, though, so it's not all roses.)

 snoop6060 11 May 2020
In reply to Blue Straggler:

> Do you get much exercise doing easy bouldering?

Well yeah I've gotta carry my stupidly oversized  pad around the churnet totally lost for a good hour before I even find the boulders. I'm absolutely goosed by the time I even pull on. 

 krikoman 11 May 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

> I'm a 31 year old, normal BMI male, with no underlying health conditions. I've got more chance of ending up in the ICU from all the DIY I've been doing than coronavirus. Me abiding by the lockdown was never about protecting myself. I'm not at risk. 


You think healthy people youngish and normal BMI don't end up in ICU? People still need you not to spread the virus and not be a burden on the NHS.

8
 gparn 11 May 2020
In reply to krikoman:

Some do, but the numbers are extremely small as a percentage of the age groups. Anecdotes of young health people suffering exist for all seasonal infections (e.g flu). It remains the case that for young people healthy people the evidence is they are very unlikely be seriously ill or die.

The point about spreading the disease is of course very important.

However it is also important to balance the minute risk of spreading the virus outdoors while observing social distancing with the severe mental health effects of being unable to leave your house for weeks.

The mental health impact of some variety and doing some of the things you love in as safe a way as possible will be very important to avoid people suffering serious and long term harm as a result of the lockdown.

3
In reply to krikoman:

I was talking in generalities, but yes. The hospitalization rate for my demographic is near as matters nil.  

https://i.imgur.com/kzkBsKC.jpg

That's for the US, but the story is roughly the same the world over. And when you control for fat people, and people with existing conditions, it drops even further.. 
 

5
 Oceanrower 11 May 2020
In reply to krikoman:

Can I ask you a question please? Bearing in mind that the record for a vaccine is 4 years and the average is 10 years (If one even exists), how long do plan on keeping this up?

 team fat belly 11 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I am a paramedic working in Yorkshire, I've recently had some counseling for stress related to my job, not because of my job but because my way of escaping, going to the mountains and crags has been removed from me. Suffice it to say I'm as keen as anyone on here to get out again.

The reason stay home and save lives was an important message is because it told you exactly what to do and why. The reason be alert us s shit is because it's been rattled lose from the mind of a man with little enough in there to spare in the first place, it means nothing. Nothing has changed, when you go out you, and everything you touch is still an infection risk to everyone else for days, even if you've already been exposed and got better. We have no where near the speed and capacity to test the and trace outbreaks so all we've done so far it's put on hold the avoidable deaths of many more thousand people. 

Of course we shouldn't wait for the government, UKC or the BMC. We're climbers, the very definition of someone who is capable of making a risk based decision and accepting the consequences of our actions. Currently the risk of going out climbing is that someone, almost certainly not you will get infected and possibly die, that's as true now as it was before 30,000 odd people died at the start of lockdown. 

As for landowners having short memories, if one of my family members died, if I wasn't able to be with them at the end because hospitals didn't accept visitors and then I couldn't go to the funeral because that too was limited. Then they memory of the people who decided lockdown didn't really apply to them, that would possibly more than linger in the memory.

Your conscience is your own to live with but it's easier to live with it you make sure you make those decisions based fact. As in so many things, be like Scotland. Stay in, save lives.

10
In reply to team fat belly:

I would feel better staying in and saving lives if every god damn person wasn't going to flood beaches and parks from Wednesday onwards. I don't understand the keenness for climbers to hold themselves to a higher standard than literally everyone else. 

Even during the previous (well, current until wednesday) lockdown we were holding ourselves to a higher standard than many other people who used 'exercise is allowed' to do things like mountain biking and rambling. Seems like we're suffering a COVID stockholm syndrome. 

Although funnily enough, stockholm is one of the places you're least likely to find COVID restrictions in place. 

Post edited at 15:53
9
pasbury 11 May 2020
In reply to euanmci:

It would have been far more sensible, prudent and understandable if the guidelines hadn't been changed. Especially as such confusing and ambiguous language has been used. Especially as no supporting reason for change has been presented.

I think this thread has thrown up a really nasty selfish thread of sentiment that's made me embarrassed to be a climber.

Wait three more weeks you impatient motherf*ckers. Then a relaxation might be safer. Or not. Then keep waiting.

28
 krikoman 11 May 2020
In reply to Oceanrower:

> Can I ask you a question please? Bearing in mind that the record for a vaccine is 4 years and the average is 10 years (If one even exists), how long do plan on keeping this up?


Until, we have a decent testing regime, tracking and tracing setup that can monitor outbreaks, so we can react quickly and not need the whole country to shutdown again, if there's a second wave.

It's happening in Germany, South Korea and Taiwan and a number of other countries. It's not impossible, if you have the information there might well be massive pockets of the UK that can function normally, other that shouldn't, some that might need to re-impose measure to limit the spread. Without any data we're hoping Boris has got it right. His track record hasn't been so good so far.

A vaccine would be great, but it's not necessary to combat the virus, there are other ways.

We could, if we had the information, close individual towns, counties, factories, even households, down but we need some way to measure where the virus is and how wide spread.

How can getting the virus late, reacting to it late and lifting restrictions early be compatible?

https://www.endcoronavirus.org/countries#winning

3
In reply to krikoman:

>It's happening in Germany

Their R is already over 1 again..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52604676

 krikoman 11 May 2020
In reply to team fat belly:

Bravo, it's climbing FFS! it's hardly life or death.

If it wasn't important to each and everyone of us, we wouldn't be on UKC.

Like you said there are 30,000 people who have no choices left in life.

Be more jock!

4
 krikoman 11 May 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

> >It's happening in Germany

> Their R is already over 1 again..https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52604676


So what do you think our chances are?

It's over 1 but they know about it, without waiting for the massive jump in hospital admissions, which is how we're measuring it.

Can you not see the difference?

In reply to krikoman:

>So what do you think our chances are?

F*cked regardless of if I go play on some rocks for a bit. 

3
 The Pylon King 11 May 2020
In reply to Skip:

> If you're one of the lucky people who have a climbing partner living with you.

> What about the poor bastards like myself who don't have such?


Buy a shunt.

 fred99 11 May 2020
In reply to Dom Goodwin:

> Yes, you *can* try to make climbing a sport in certain circumstances, by setting up competitions etc. But it is not fundamental to the nature of climbing. I imagine like most people I have been climbing many times and there has never been any significant element of competition with other people, so in general it can't sensibly be regarded as a sport.

> Climbing very clearly is not in general a sport based simply on the definition! However, it's a digression and I don't really think it influences whether climbing should currently be considered ok.

So you agree with me and many others that "climbing" shouldn't be in the Olympics (with all the crap that goes with the Olympic rules and government intrusion)- nice to hear that.

4
 fred99 11 May 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

> > You will still not be able to use areas like playgrounds, outdoor gyms or ticketed outdoor leisure venues, where there is a higher risk of close contact and touching surfaces. 

> Hmmm. The touching surfaces bit could be interpreted to restrict climbing. 


How does the virus stand up to being on tennis balls and such like ?

2
 fred99 11 May 2020
In reply to Anoetic:

> Well at least you can categorically go play tennis, golf, and go fishing Or swimming with members of your household if you are in England, and stay 2 metres apart.....now we wait for clarification on all the Outdoor stuff.....at least it’s a start.....


What about the removing of the hole flags, that means touching the same item by different people - or will golf clubs have a flunky at each hole, paid for by the wealthy patrons.

3
 fred99 11 May 2020
In reply to krikoman:

> You think healthy people youngish and normal BMI don't end up in ICU? People still need you not to spread the virus and not be a burden on the NHS.


If you actually read what George88 said; "Me abiding by the lockdown was never about protecting myself".

This surely implies that his abiding by the lockdown was more about protecting OTHERS than himself.

1
 krikoman 11 May 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

> >So what do you think our chances are?

> F*cked regardless of if I go play on some rocks for a bit. 


But that doesn't have to be true, we'll definitely be f*cked if everyone does what they feel like doing.

1
 krikoman 11 May 2020
In reply to fred99:

> If you actually read what George88 said; "Me abiding by the lockdown was never about protecting myself".

> This surely implies that his abiding by the lockdown was more about protecting OTHERS than himself.


Exactly, but he also gave the impression that,  because he was fit and healthy, he would be OK. This isn't true, you stand less chance of dying, but you're not immune and it's not guaranteed to be a walk in the park.

I'm pretty certain, most people who are isolating are doing it for "others", I'm not sure there are many who are so scared for themselves they are hiding away.

2
 Coel Hellier 11 May 2020
In reply to pasbury:

> I think this thread has thrown up a really nasty selfish thread of sentiment that's made me embarrassed to be a climber.

Or just perhaps, the government, and their scientific advisors, and indeed lots of other people, have correctly worked out that being socially distanced in the outdoors presents a pretty minimal risk of transmitting the virus.

> Wait three more weeks you impatient motherf*ckers.

I'm waiting another one and a half days, and then off to a crag on Wednesday.

[It will be a local one, with no access issues, and I'll do it socially distanced, indeed likely alone, shunting on a top-rope; feel free to point to something in the new guidelines that disallow this, read here: 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-outbreak-faqs-what-y...   ]

6
 Blunderbuss 11 May 2020
In reply to krikoman:

At what point do you think going for a walk/climb in the hills is acceptable? 

OP Paul Sagar 11 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Well if nothing else this thread has brought out new divisions. Finally, we can forget about Brexit!

The two tribes, henceforth, are:

1) The selfish murderers who only care about themselves and want to kill your grandma by bouldering alone

2) The fakey fraudster lockdown-lovers who clearly don't even like climbing and shouldn't be on this forum at all given how desperate they are for climbing to stay banned.

Progress! Hurrah!

Post edited at 17:16
13
 mountainmanBFC 11 May 2020
In reply to Coel Hellier:

I like your stance sir. I'm deffo with you. F*ck the snowflakes, its spring/summer anyway. 

Let's. Go. Climbing. (Safely with SD in place that is)!!!

15

This post is surely about to be overtaken by events, but you have to feel bad for the BMC here.
They have to say something.
The letter of the government guidance, whether we like it or not, whether it's ethical or morally right or not, does say you're allowed now.
The BMC plan released last week lays out how we should go about it.

I mean... They can't come out and say "Fill your boots" with a clear conscience, but at the same time they can't really say "it's not ok to climb at all" while standing by their own statement last Thursday, can they?
Excited to see what comes out. Any leaked insider info on here?

1
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

>The BMC plan released last week lays out how we should go about it.

 

The BMC were pretty stupid for creating that plan, and announcing it. Did they honestly think anyone in government was going to read it, let alone authorise it as a plan? The government has bigger concerns than climbers. 

And besides, they were asking permission from the government to get back to an activity/sport that... We were never explicitly asked to stop? 

BMC only has to ask the BMC if it's okay to climb now. Because it was only the BMC than 'banned' it. 

Should be interesting what they decide to do. 

BMC need to answer as to why they felt the need to ban climbing completely, when many other sports associations (mountain biking, etc) didn't. 

Post edited at 17:44
12
OP Paul Sagar 11 May 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

That's because mountain bikers are all selfish tw*ts who want to kill old people.

I used to think mountain biking was great then I read a mountain biking forum and now I am shocked, SHOCKED I TELL YOU at how selfish mountain bikers are.

6
 Alkis 11 May 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

> BMC only has to ask the BMC if it's okay to climb now. Because it was only the BMC than 'banned' it. 

No George, it wasn't. They consulted the government and the various administrations and they did consult with their legal team. What the government announced and asked people to do and what the government actually put into law ended up being two very different things, as evidenced by the thousands of businesses that were forced to close even though they were not legally required to, some of which being forced to close by the police. It is also clearly evidenced by the conflicting messages by the government at the time on a nearly daily basis and the police getting a bollocking for basically enforcing what the government was saying, rather than the law.

Get your head out.

5
 Neil Foster Global Crag Moderator 11 May 2020
In reply to Emilysaladfingers:

I tried to ‘like’ your excellent post, but my keyboard locked. When I refreshed your post had disappeared (and I even ended up ‘liking’ an adjacent post from someone I dislike, by mistake....!).

Please repost it - it was well worth reading.

And thank you for everything you’ve done since your Spanish trip was curtailed.

Neil

 krikoman 11 May 2020
In reply to Blunderbuss:

> At what point do you think going for a walk/climb in the hills is acceptable? 


Probably when I can travel in a car with more than one person in it, since I'd have to drive to the hills

In reply to Neil Foster:

haha thanks Neil, clocked it in the short space it was up there!   I posted then decided I couldn't be arsed with any kick back, but here it is again:

I'm a critical care nurse in Liverpool, I am desperate to get out climbing but I agree we need to maybe wait a little longer. 

I had to get psychological support because of what I witnessed and experienced during the first peak and over half our staff have what is likely to turn out to be PTSD.  I understand that if you haven't seen the true horrors first hand the numbers of people dying can feel removed it is just numbers. 

But it isn't,  each number is someone's significant someone. A lot of these people would not have died if it wasn't for this virus and that is one of the things that has left me traumatised amongst other things (normally fit and well type of people). I know we can't stay locked in forever and I agree with you all that think we need to slowly loosen off while really protecting our vulnerable population but I can't forget that my ITU was full and a lot of those who didn't survive were 30-50 year olds. And this was not because we didn't make a blanket decision to not vent the older population (we never ran out of vents so that wasn't an issue thankfully), it is because this virus is really difficult to understand and treat when you get that sick. 

The other thing we do need to consider is that where we will go climbing the locals might not want us there. People are scared and memories are loooong,  some crags have delicate access agreements and we don't want to risk that, that is the difference between mountain biking , running and so on, and climbing I think. Worth just being mega careful with where and what we do to preserve access going forward.

If you are going to go out please think carefully about where you're going, have a plan b for if it has many people there, park with consideration, avoid using the shops and facilities there to reduce the risk to locals, wash your hands and be kind to each other   

 krikoman 11 May 2020
In reply to Emilysaladfingers:

Nice one

2
OP Paul Sagar 11 May 2020
In reply to Emilysaladfingers:

Cheers Emily - powerful point well made

1
 krikoman 11 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> 2) The fakey fraudster lockdown-lovers who clearly don't even like climbing and shouldn't be on this forum at all given how desperate they are for climbing to stay banned.

I'm sure there are loads of them on here. People who don't want to see their mates and have a pint down the pub.

3
 groovejunkie 11 May 2020
In reply to Emilysaladfingers:

well said

pasbury 11 May 2020
In reply to Coel Hellier:

You could have done all that yesterday.

1
 Cusco 11 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

You're forgetting another recent UKC dividing line:

1) all roped climbers should only use ABDs in case they can't belay properly; and

2) all people who can't use a stitch plate/ATC properly shouldn't be climbing at all.

 S Andrew 11 May 2020

Worth reading Steve Blake’s post on access in Northumberland. Even if you don’t intend to climb there it’s worth asking whether your destination might be subject to similar risks.

And also realise that birds may have nested on that quiet out of the way Crag that only you are going to visit. You’ll still be breaking the law if you disturb them whether there’s a ban in place or not.

On balance I’m still glad I’m in Scotland.

pasbury 11 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> Well if nothing else this thread has brought out new divisions. Finally, we can forget about Brexit!

> The two tribes, henceforth, are:

> 1) The selfish murderers who only care about themselves and want to kill your grandma by bouldering alone

> 2) The fakey fraudster lockdown-lovers who clearly don't even like climbing and shouldn't be on this forum at all given how desperate they are for climbing to stay banned.

> Progress! Hurrah!

I wish you'd stop being glib and sarky.

Your dichotomy above is really divisive, dumb and unfunny. Well done.

Post edited at 18:20
25
OP Paul Sagar 11 May 2020
In reply to pasbury:

It was intended to inject a bit of levity and show that everyone is being a bit OTT and maybe we should all calm down a bit...I mean, did you think this was supposed to be taken seriously?

5
OP Paul Sagar 11 May 2020

Or are you saying: nobody is allowed to poke fun at the situation because I AM RIGHT AND THAT IS THE END. 

Yeah, thought so 

6
 kipper12 11 May 2020
In reply to Skip:

It’s obvious, you stay put or boulder 

2
 JHiley 11 May 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

> >It's happening in Germany

> Their R is already over 1 again..https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52604676

The 'German infections are rising' story is a dodgy media invention and doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. The latest numbers for Germany are publicly available:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/germany/

There's currently no evidence their cases are rising significantly. They fluctuate a bit and it seems the media are happy to selectively cherry pick the data in order to get dramatic headlines. (shock horror).

However the British outbreak has been much worse and I'd have felt much more confident if we'd held off on easing restrictions a few weeks longer.

pasbury 11 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Isn't this supposed to be a thread about whether we should all go out climbing again? And whether we should travel long distances to do it, where we can't predict the contact we'll have on the way and while we're there?

Frankly you can screw your levity and also shove it up your arse. I'd like to avoid another several thousand avoidable deaths by being responsible and acting with solidarity.

Post edited at 18:40
18
 JHiley 11 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

"The plan is conditional on the common sense of the British people." . .  .    .

.

..

...

God help us all.

 krikoman 11 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> Yeah, thought so 


See this? You just proved them right about the sarkyness. It's hard to tell when people are having fun, usually a smily face is a good hint.

But if you're going to post, posts like this, then how can people tell from reading text, when you're being sarky and when you're not?

Your previous post to this explained your OP, but then you had to follow it up and be a bit nasty and a bit snarky, so is it any wonder people get confused?

Not really having a go, but if you want to know, then there you are, if not feel free to ignore this post.

Have a lovely evening

Post edited at 18:47
3
OP Paul Sagar 11 May 2020
In reply to krikoman:

Fair play. Point taken. 

 krikoman 11 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

No worries

 olddirtydoggy 11 May 2020
In reply to steveb2006:

You're quite right. We used helmets, a mat and dropped 2 grades to keep the risk down as much as possible. We all have to make our own assessments.

2
 TomAlford 11 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Which quiet part of Dorset are you referring to? There's a few bouldering spots that come to mind, but I'd say any kind of sea cliff climbing can't be seen as justifiable due to the inherent heightened risk, not to mentioned shared abseil ropes etc. In terms of Swanage, the sport crags can't be described as quiet, I'd say if you can't justify portland sport crags they can't be justified either; just because the locals are more relaxed, the impact isn't lessened. 

That leaves a few esoteric bouldering spots in Lulworth etc, is that where you mean? Unless you're DWSing, if so you're a hardier man than me. 

My point is, I don't think any of the none-sea cliff crags in Dorset could be described as quiet. 

Post edited at 19:46
OP Paul Sagar 11 May 2020
In reply to TomAlford:

I’ll rephrase - I’m guessing Winspit or Hedbury will be less of a red flag to local bulls than Portland. And I reckon it’ll be no problem being two meters apart from everyone except my girlfriend if we’re willing to spread out and climb the 1 and 0 star routes (which we are - I’d climb anything right now).

 OldMonkey 11 May 2020
In reply to Emilysaladfingers:

Long tome lurker here.

Emily, thank you, well said.

 TomAlford 11 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Understood, there certainly are a lot of one and no star routes to choose from! 

Personally, I don't think you'll be alone - these are the closest crags to London as well as popular spots for walkers and sightseers! I had the same plan but decided against having to walk all the way in and finding an unjustifiably busy crag, especially as seepage this time of the year can easily cut the number of climbable routes in half. 

Post edited at 19:51
OP Paul Sagar 11 May 2020
In reply to TomAlford:

It was seeping like crazy when I was there in February (surprise!) but I reckon that given how dry it's been for a month and a half (because of course it has) it will be ok - also, can walk along a bit and do stuff on the south face that normally gets neglected.

Portland will, I think, be vastly worse...

 Ben Farley 11 May 2020
In reply to Emilysaladfingers:

Nice one Em, great post and of course, thanks for your hard work. Hope to see you soon 

 yoshi.h 11 May 2020
In reply to Emilysaladfingers:

Seems sensible. I think I will be using tact and going out to the crag very soon.

2
 Anoetic 11 May 2020
In reply to fred99:it’s true..but I didn’t say it was well thought out, just that they were mentioned.   They seem to be specifically mentioned  along with cycling and walking to appease Londoners to help them escape their flats....they can now enter all the London parks with no worries......

I don’t think any other outdoor exercise was specifically mentioned, and hence the comment.  However the one thing I would say is they are low risk activities and the risk of serious injury is low..  any activity where if it goes wrong would require a rescue by multiple people should be avoided....social distancing if you were on a stretcher would be tricky....

the inclusion of outdoor swimming is fine as long as you stick to regular venues.  Going somewhere new where currents are not understood would be reckless....

people talk about bouldering being safe, but I’ve seen a lot of compromised limbs even from the ‘safer’ confines of indoor walls.

this government hasn’t told people what to do in the same way as other countries. But for anyone going out after Wednesday would they be willing to do what Dave macleod did...make their own way off the hill with a broken ankle, and then cycle to get help....

 Alkis 11 May 2020

Just to reiterate the previous point to everyone who talks about 20:20 hindsight et cetera.

I dunno if it's visible to people without a Facebook account but nonetheless.

https://www.facebook.com/549379585194546/posts/1890805204385304/?vh=e&d...

Note how he states that *both* sides of Parliament were on board with preparations for this sort of pandemic. What intervened between then and now was Jeremy Hunt.

In reply to Speed Reed:

Your anger is based on the assumption that going and climbing on some rocks is a significant risk factor in regards to spreading the virus. I would argue that's not at all a given, and that the evidence so far shows that the ourdoors isn't a significant vector for respiratory disease transmission. 

Here's some research from China:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.04.20053058v1

It shows that of the 320 cases they studied, they only found one that originated from an outdoors environment. 

This weekend parks and beaches are going to be absolutely rammed. 

It's going to make any complaint about a few people playing on some rocks, in what is a naturally socially distancing sport, look completely ridiculous frankly. 

8
 Misha 12 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Having looked at the guidance and people's comments, I think it's a case of applying some common sense. My take on it is that in England:

- Travelling to a climbing venue seems fine but try to keep the travel as 'local' as possible.

- Climbing with household members seems fine.

- Climbing with one non-household member while maintaining SD may be possible but in practice it will limit what and where you can climb, eg no multi pitch. It would be preferable to climb with someone who is at low risk of having the virus (i.e. working from home and all their other household members also working / staying at home) and to stick with that single climbing partner for the foreseeable.

- Moderate your ambitions and play it safe. Sport climbing or top roping would be safer than trad for most people.

- The jury's out regarding how long Covid can stay on holds. Not a bad idea to stick to one or two routes all day, eg projecting a sport route.

- Sensible crag choice will be key - somewhere which isn't going to aggravate locals or landowners and which isn't going to be busy (have plans A, B, C and D).

Personally, I'm still with my parents in the flatlands of Newmarket where I've been since coming back from France a week before the lockdown. Think I'll head home to Birmingham this weekend and see what the lie of the land is in terms of reports from this weekend and any further government pronouncements. Then if things are still looking positive, look at doing some day hits somewhere sensible over the bank holiday weekend. It might lash down with rain anyway! Tempting to head out this weekend but not keen to add to the potential chaos. Also wasn't really expecting to be out till June so this is kind of a bonus.

The reality is that climbers won't be the main demographic crowding out the national parks etc. I also wonder whether a lot of the general public will stay away, given that accommodation and all facilities (including toilets presumably) will be closed.

Post edited at 02:48
 Misha 12 May 2020

In reply to Speed Reed:

Appreciate you disagree with the person you were referring to but there's no need to be so rude. Let's keep things civilised in these difficult times, that's going to be better for everyone.

2
In reply to Misha:

When people are playing COVID Russian roulette with lives because they want to go out and play I think I can understand why others are increasingly agitated.  That's for everyone and not just climbers. Watching the news this morning, the tourist areas are desperate for people to return but they dont want people to return, Cumbria included. After all people were moaning that civil liberties were being taken away - they weren't, just temporarily restricted - but now all cycling, walking, running etc is allowed.

It wont kill people to be patient but it might kill people to do the opposite.

Post edited at 07:35
3
 steve taylor 12 May 2020
In reply to fred99:

> What about the removing of the hole flags, that means touching the same item by different people - or will golf clubs have a flunky at each hole, paid for by the wealthy patrons.

The golfing world seem to have got themselves sorted. Rules have been adapted so that golfers will not touch the same equipment (flag poles, rakes, buggies, each others golf balls etc.) and maintain social distancing. Golf England has even managed to get a direct response from the govt. about playing with people outside your household (it was confirmed that you can play with one other person outside your household, as long as you maintain social distancing) from Wednesday.

I know the BMC will be asking similar questions from the govt. now, but probably don't have the same clout as golfers in Parliament - hopefully the BMC response, to be published soon, will include some formal response from our great leaders.

 webbo 12 May 2020
In reply to steve taylor:

My sister who plays golf told me a tale of a lady member of her golf club who due to an underlying health condition is too vulnerable to visit the supermarket and has petitioned all and sundry to get her shopping delivered. However as soon it was was announced that golf courses were being allowed to open, she on the golf clubs web page trying to find a partner for a round tomorrow.

1
 Robert Durran 12 May 2020
In reply to webbo:

> My sister who plays golf told me a tale of a lady member of her golf club who due to an underlying health condition is too vulnerable to visit the supermarket and has petitioned all and sundry to get her shopping delivered. However as soon it was was announced that golf courses were being allowed to open, she on the golf clubs web page trying to find a partner for a round tomorrow.

I'd have thought that social distancing while playing golf was really easy. And it's outdoors. Seems entirely logical to me.

 beefy_legacy 12 May 2020
In reply to steve taylor:

The regs make it clear you can play sport with a single member not of your household. We don't need to complicate it by getting specific confirmation!

 steve taylor 12 May 2020
In reply to beefy_legacy:

I think you're being sarcastic, but just in case you aren't

https://www.englandgolf.org/england-golf-official-statement/

The UK Government has today provided clarification on outdoor recreation and rules on social distancing in England.

These will affect how golf can be played from Wednesday 13 May and, in particular, the configuration of groupings on a golf course.

Under new government rules released today (11 May), the following groupings will be permitted upon resumption of play:

- Individuals playing golf on their own.

- Two-balls comprising of individuals from different households

- At the discretion of the golf club, members of the same household playing in two, three or four-balls.

Social distancing rules must be strictly adhered to at all times.

Edit - missed the word "not" in your post! I'm hoping that the BMC can get some govt. clarification themselves.

Post edited at 09:53

So are we expecting a BMC announcement today? Seems it'll be too late if they don't say anything by tomorrow. 

 beefy_legacy 12 May 2020
In reply to steve taylor:

I don't see the ambiguity. Why on earth would you ask the government to distinguish between sport and bouldering as if they know or care the difference? It's just asking for trouble.

This is the faq:

exercise outdoors as often as you wish - following social distancing guidelines

use outdoor sports courts or facilities, such as a tennis or basketball court, or golf course – with members of your household, or one other person while staying 2 metres apart

Post edited at 10:04
 J1_TOV 12 May 2020
In reply to beefy_legacy:

Thank you Beefy. At last, someone here with a bit of common sense. It's quite simple. Follow what the Government has said.

I really don't know why some climbers are looking at complicating this or what others think we are waiting to happen. The virus isn't going away any time soon. The vaccine might never appear. 18 years and still waiting for the SARS vaccine. Herd immunity will take years at the rate of infection we're dealing with or might never happen if it turns out that antibodies don't stick more than a year. 

We're dipping our toe in. We're testing the water. Yes, it might well backfire. We might have to lockdown again in a month or two if R goes above 1. But I can say with confidence that if R goes above 1 we can all sleep knowing that it won't be down to climbing with one other person. The key point here is 'with one other person'. 

This whole thing is nothing more than an experiment, guided by science that hasn't had to deal with this before, but in the meantime those of us that have survived this long do need some sort of a life. 

Get out there. Follow the guidance. Enjoy yourselves.

2
In reply to J1_TOV:

>We're dipping our toe in. We're testing the water. Yes, it might well backfire. We might have to lockdown again in a month or two if R goes above 1. But I can say with confidence that if R goes above 1 we can all sleep knowing that it won't be down to climbing with one other person. 

Exactly. From Wednesday on, the newspaper front pages are going to be packed full of pictures of people crowding beaches and parks with tinnies in hand. 

Continuing to not partake in a sport that generally happens in the middle of nowhere, and even on the most crowded days won't be as busy as the park or beach, will seem absurd. 

 

4
 S Andrew 12 May 2020

Turkeys. Christmas.

 runestone 12 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

We should all wait to see the BMC advise.  Once seen and they say a slow measured return is OK my plan would to get more walking in further from home and perhaps easy scrambling in quiet areas to follow....

Post edited at 12:03
11
 x Jude x 12 May 2020
In reply to runestone:

The problem with that is the BMC are moving too slow.  People will be out climbing before they release anything 

6
 Little Rascal 12 May 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

> Exactly. From Wednesday on, the newspaper front pages are going to be packed full of pictures of people crowding beaches and parks with tinnies in hand.

And from a Mountain Rescue perspective: the hills are likely to be crammed with hillwalkers and mountain bikers again. I suspect that climbers are the least of the MR teams worries at the moment.

As a comparison, It's interesting to see how the RYA (sailing) and British Canoeing are handling the same questions.

(FWIW I'm personally still reserving judgement in terms of going out climbing myself. As keen as I am, I feel there's nothing to be lost by waiting a few weeks to see how things pan out...)

Post edited at 12:16
 krikoman 12 May 2020
In reply to webbo:

> My sister who plays golf told me a tale of a lady member of her golf club who due to an underlying health condition is too vulnerable to visit the supermarket and has petitioned all and sundry to get her shopping delivered. However as soon it was was announced that golf courses were being allowed to open, she on the golf clubs web page trying to find a partner for a round tomorrow.


British common sense in action.

 beefy_legacy 12 May 2020
In reply to runestone:

You are of course free to do that, but the BMC is not a governing body for climbing.

1
 beefy_legacy 12 May 2020
In reply to Little Rascal:

Of course there will be more people out, but let's not be total misanthropes. Hopefully people will be sensible, avoid honeypots, stick to low risk stuff closer to home and loosen up as time goes on. I can't believe how much hostility there is to people climbing on a climbing forum. 

 Alkis 12 May 2020
In reply to beefy_legacy:

They are not, but they are responsible for most of the access negotiations on our behalf. Don't blame them if your actions lose us access to crags. I'd wait until there is word on access, even if the rules allow me to climb, as I'd rather be able to climb in those places again in the future.

1
 UKB Shark 12 May 2020
In reply to x Jude x:

> The problem with that is the BMC are moving too slow.  People will be out climbing before they release anything 

Dave Turnbull the CEO of the BMC confirmed on FB that a statement will be released this afternoon or early evening

 beefy_legacy 12 May 2020
In reply to Alkis:

I will not be rushing out. I am aware of access considerations and I will take that into consideration as I did before. I will also do what the government regulations allow me, behaving responsibly. The BMC is not a governing body for climbers, I pay it to look after my own interest and advocate for me.

Edit: removed irrelevant dig at BMC

Post edited at 14:20
 Little Rascal 12 May 2020
In reply to beefy_legacy:

>  I can't believe how much hostility there is to people climbing on a climbing forum. 

Not from me there's not. I specifically said I have yet to make up my mind. And I've been training hard for months to make sure I'm absolutely ready to go as soon as I deem it safe and responsible for me to do so, in my circumstances and with due consideration to the effect on other people.

I was just making the point that climbers are not going to be the only ones calling out MRTs, and will likely be vastly outnumbered by walkers from Wednesday on.

> Hopefully people will be sensible, avoid honeypots, stick to low risk stuff closer to home and loosen up as time goes on.

Totally agree. 

Post edited at 14:26
 beefy_legacy 12 May 2020
In reply to Little Rascal:

Yeah sorry, wasn't really aimed at you. It's a fair point re MR.

 Little Rascal 12 May 2020
In reply to beefy_legacy:

No probs

 mrphilipoldham 12 May 2020
In reply to Alkis:

Do you expect the BMC to speak with every landowner and get individual crag permissions to be climbed on?

1
 Uluru 12 May 2020
In reply to Mark Stevenson:

Travelling by vehicle before exercising (welsh Government Guidance)

13. The intention is that exercise should be undertaken locally – as close as possible to the home.  In general this should not involve people driving to a location away from home for this purpose.  No journeys of any significant distance should be taken, for example, just in order to exercise in the countryside or at beauty spots (many of which are closed in any event to prevent this).

14. People with specific health or mobility issues may, however, need to travel from their home in order to be able to exercise.  For example, some wheelchair users may not be able to start to exercise immediately outside their homes for practical access reasons, and may need to drive to a suitable flat location, such as a park, for this purpose.  In these circumstances the journey should be to the nearest convenient accessible location and no long journeys should be undertaken unless absolutely necessary. 

 Nik 12 May 2020

Since the announcement I've been reading posts on quite a few different forums of differing opinions from loads of people. And I think my conclusion is, at it always has been...try not to be a dick.

I can't wait to get back to climbing but will be taking a great deal of care where I choose to climb in the immediate future. Do I have the right to get back and climb anywhere that there is access? I guess so, but if me doing that is going to make someone else feel anxious/worried/whatever...I'm pretty sure I can find another location.

I'm also going to be choosing locations based on 'worst case scenario what if I did have to call emergency services?' My way of thinking is that if a cyclist or runner has an accident while exercising an ambulance might be required, but not a whole rescue team. If I can find locations to climb (more likely boulder) where that would be the case, I feel morally that this is OK. I am lucky enough to live with my climbing partner so will have a spotter/living crash mat.

I'm already committed to an online event this weekend so won't be out until at least the weekend after next but will be watching the situation with interest as it develops.

 Alkis 12 May 2020
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Of course not, but they are well aware of where access is sensitive and where it isn't and can produce handy lists of said information.

1
 krikoman 12 May 2020
In reply to Little Rascal:

 

> I was just making the point that climbers are not going to be the only ones calling out MRTs, and will likely be vastly outnumbered by walkers from Wednesday on.

So maybe, not add to their predicament? This, unfortunately, is not a valid excuse, "well they're out on their bikes", doesn't really sway an argument does it?

Sadly, a lot of people use this type of argument to do what they want to do, I'm sure there are plenty of people who can go out and climb safely and not have an accident. But accidents are by there very nature hard to plan for.

4
 mrphilipoldham 12 May 2020
In reply to Alkis:

They do, it's called the BMC RAD. 

 UKB Shark 12 May 2020
In reply to UKB Shark:

> Dave Turnbull the CEO of the BMC confirmed on FB that a statement will be released this afternoon or early evening

Should also add that he is doing a live Q&A at 12.30 tomorrow via the BMC Facebook page

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10159624633155828&id=381399...

 PilarMartinez 12 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

No dont go climbing. Leave the crags Alone, they will be there in a few weeks, months. If we go climbing we could piss off the land owners at this early stage and it will be devastating if access gets cut off.  Remember at lots of crags climbers are tolerated.. just... and private landlords or private managed cliffs could get very piss off. For everyone thinking of their climbing needs, think about the future and the others climbers too. leave the crags alone

11
 ianstevens 12 May 2020
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Look at the RAD, look at a map and go somewhere on access land with an approach over access land?

 mrphilipoldham 12 May 2020
In reply to ianstevens:

You make it sound so simple  

 ianstevens 12 May 2020
In reply to UKB Shark:

About 18 hours too late though. People will be out and about by then.

 ianstevens 12 May 2020
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

> You make it sound so simple  

Haha, because to me it is? If you're uncomfortable going out, then don't, but accept that others are and it's perfectly legal to do so (whether or not you agree with the law, there are many laws I disagree with by abide by). Once that barrier is crossed, the issue is that landowners may take issue with you being on their land and withdraw access - so to me it seems wise to avoid such places, and go somewhere landowners can't easily decide to withdraw access. 

Note none of this is "aimed" at you as such, more a generic reponse. I've been reading up on quiet crags local to me in CROW land and will be out on one tomorrow Hope to not see any of you.

 ianstevens 12 May 2020
In reply to PilarMartinez:

> No dont go climbing. Leave the crags Alone, they will be there in a few weeks, months. If we go climbing we could piss off the land owners at this early stage and it will be devastating if access gets cut off.  Remember at lots of crags climbers are tolerated.. just... and private landlords or private managed cliffs could get very piss off. For everyone thinking of their climbing needs, think about the future and the others climbers too. leave the crags alone

Or... don't go climbing in places with permissive access where pissing off a landowner could result in its removal. CRoW land is a thing, stick to that. 

 Little Rascal 12 May 2020
In reply to krikoman:

> > I was just making the point that climbers are not going to be the only ones calling out MRTs, and will likely be vastly outnumbered by walkers from Wednesday on.

> So maybe, not add to their predicament? This, unfortunately, is not a valid excuse, "well they're out on their bikes", doesn't really sway an argument does it?

> Sadly, a lot of people use this type of argument to do what they want to do, I'm sure there are plenty of people who can go out and climb safely and not have an accident. But accidents are by there very nature hard to plan for.

I wasn't making this an argument for or against. Just flagging up the likely reality on the ground which should be considered carefully. Please don't put words in my mouth.

 mrphilipoldham 12 May 2020
In reply to ianstevens:

Exactly. I thought all climbers were pretty aware of things like access and sensitivities but it's fast becoming apparent that a lot quite simply haven't got a clue. How hard is it to look in a guide book, look at an OS map, look on here, look on BMC RAD and decide on somewhere with parking and access away from houses, ideally on CRoW or authority owned land? Some people just want to be spoon fed, and it beggars belief. I think this extends to people asking what 'Stay alert' means.. how hard is it to realise that you should go about your business and stay alert? Stay alert to social distancing. Stay alert to your surroundings. Stay alert to hygiene.. etc. I've had supposedly educated friends moaning how they can't see the virus so they can't stay alert to it. At first I thought they were just being funny.. but no, they expect to be told down to each individual breath how to live. Ugh. Sorry, got a bit ranty. Going for a run now. 

1
In reply to ianstevens:

Is there a database of CRoW crags? That'd be a nice list to have! 

In regards to the crags still being there in a few weeks, does anyone really think the R is going to remain under 1 while we lift restrictions? I fully expect the people flooding beaches and parks to bring the R number up rather quickly, and we will get locked down again. 

That's more likely than not, imo. 

Seems silly to not enjoy my only real hobby, while I'm legally allowed. Just be sensible about it.. Climb within your grade, don't use any local amenities if you're travelling to climb, and stay the hell away from nursing homes. 
 

3
 mrphilipoldham 12 May 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

BMC RAD! Yes, I am shouting. It's quite easy to figure out where to look for ideas if you understand what land types are likely to fall under CRoW too, go and Google it and see if you can figure out some without peeking. 

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Thank you, very useful. Will check out their app. 

 ianstevens 12 May 2020
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

No need to be sorry, I could not agree with you more. 

 ianstevens 12 May 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

Also worth looking on the OS Map - on the 1:25k scale access land has an orange border and background.

Just for the future record, this is the point in the thread when this was published:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/can-i-start-climbing-and-hill-walking-again

Continue.

 Bulls Crack 12 May 2020
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

There's no-one left - they've all gone out

OP Paul Sagar 12 May 2020
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

Just for future reference, the BMC's position in England is: you can climb, just don't be a dick about it.

This should be an interesting week coming up...

In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

Probably deserving of a new thread of its own:

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/rock_talk/bmc_announcement_on_climbing_12...

 krikoman 12 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> Just for future reference, the BMC's position in England is: you can climb, just don't be a dick about it.

> This should be an interesting week coming up...


I'd say it'll be more interesting in three weeks time, when we find out what this relaxation has exposed.

 krikoman 12 May 2020
In reply to Little Rascal:

> I wasn't making this an argument for or against. Just flagging up the likely reality on the ground which should be considered carefully. Please don't put words in my mouth.


Ditto, my thought's weren't specifically directed at you more to the points you raised.

 yoshi.h 13 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Besides the opinion article UKC have published, are you going to allow climbs to be logged again, and will you be removing the note to refrain from climbing on crag pages?

 Alkis 13 May 2020
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

For reference, the type of information I am referring to is the sort of list as this:

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/crag_access/wye_valley_-_access_considera...

A lot of the specific information there is *not* on the RAD.


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