Climbing as three.

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 Gavin McColl 30 Jun 2019

Recently I lead Eagle Ridge, Lochnagar with 2 seconds and although all went well I wondered if there was a better way to manage the rope drag. Having two ropes, it would be good to climb using both ropes across separate runner lines to avoid drag but having two seconds makes this dangerous as one second has a chance of a pendulum fall if he is far from a runner and not directed toward the belay, therefor both climbers must be attached to each single runner along the route creating double the rope drag! Can anyone offer a solution or a better method to prevent this?

 MischaHY 30 Jun 2019
In reply to Gavin McColl:

The first person seconding clips the other rope in as they go. 

OP Gavin McColl 30 Jun 2019
In reply to MischaHY:

I thought of this, but when there is a traverse, the first second may not be able to reach the other seconds rope as it has not been clipped it at has moved away from the route and toward the belay

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In reply to Gavin McColl:

As Mischa says, the first can re clip,  but be prepared to improvise. E.g.  by sending the weaker second on the better protected rope, belaying higher to reduce pendulum swing potential etc, if it looks like it might be a problem in advance the leader may be able to place the runners with seconds in mind.

If using a single rope both seconds can follow by moving together on the end of the rope tied in a few metres apart. Not always ideal but can with well.

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 jkarran 30 Jun 2019
In reply to Gavin McColl:

> Recently I lead Eagle Ridge, Lochnagar with 2 seconds and although all went well I wondered if there was a better way to manage the rope drag. Having two ropes, it would be good to climb using both ropes across separate runner lines to avoid drag but having two seconds makes this dangerous as one second has a chance of a pendulum fall if he is far from a runner and not directed toward the belay, therefor both climbers must be attached to each single runner along the route creating double the rope drag! Can anyone offer a solution or a better method to prevent this?

Most pitches are short enough the 2nds can climb conventionally o half ropes, one tied to the middles, the other to the ends. Last on up strips te gear. Other than that with competent seconds they can improvise, back roping each other, rearranging the runners on the ropes as they pass them.

Or Place more gear. 

Jk

 MischaHY 30 Jun 2019
In reply to Gavin McColl:

The first can clip the rope with a draw if it dips at any point. On a traverse realistically the rope will be in reach 99% of the time. Try it out this way, it works just fine. 

 C Witter 30 Jun 2019
In reply to Gavin McColl:

One thing that needs clearing up, before anything: when you write, "therefore both climbers must be attached to each single runner along the route creating double the rope drag!"... I get to thinking: are you saying you put in a piece of gear, attach a quick draw, and then clip both ropes into this? If so, first and most important is: just stop doing this!

It's actually considered dangerous to do this unless you clip both ropes into every bit of gear. I'm not quite sure why, but it's in the relevant literature. This is  going to create terrible levels of friction, as two ropes run over each other (which is perhaps where the danger comes in, as two ropes occasionally clipped into the the same carabiner will move against each other and potentially melt/abraid in a fall).

That cleared up, there are a lot of different tricks, which you can deploy as make sense. E.g.:

1. First, extend your gear a bit more - and that'll go a long way. When you change direction, put a longer runner on. Personally, if I'm climbing longer routes in the Lakes or Wales, 7 or 8 of my runners are alpine draws on a 60cm sling. Actual pre-stitched quickdraws I usually reserve to further extend cams, which already have their own short sling attached - or for when I'm at risk of hitting a ledge/the ground. Otherwise, they generally get used near the top.

2. Place gear carefully, thinking ahead about swing potential for your second and third. Rather than primarily thinking of gear as there to protect you, start thinking: my gear is there to protect the belay; then to protect those following me. Easier to do when you're within your comfort zone, and/or climbing with less experienced partners.

3. When necessary, use two separate draws on a piece of gear, clipping one rope into each. A draw placed just to protect the second/third can be longer, to minimise rope drag (e.g. 60cm sling). This can be helpful if gear placements are sparse or, e.g., you come up a tricky groove on the left and find a really bomber placement just before you need change directions and traverse out to the right toward the belay. In this example, you could put a really long runner on the righthand rope, so that if the person on that rope fell in the groove they'd be protected from above, but you minimise rope drag.

4. Carry a DMM revolver (perhaps on a 120 sling). If you change directions really brutally, you can maybe use this to reduce the drag.

5. Finally, if you're able to communicate with partners, or you can foresee it before you set off, you can do what MischaHY says - which I've done on several occasions with no problems.

Hope that's helpful!
C

Post edited at 19:29
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 Misha 30 Jun 2019
In reply to Gavin McColl:

Use lots of extenders, think about where you are placing the gear, split up pitches with intermediary belays.

Above all, some routes simply won’t work well with two seconds, unless they are very competent at the grade and happy to climb with the risk of a pendulum.

Traverses can be ok as long as you clip both ropes to each piece of gear (using separate QDs / extenders) or place twice as many runners as you would do normally. What doesn’t work very well is anything where you have to really separate the ropes and can’t straighten out the line of the ropes with extenders. Also routes with very small stances.

 Misha 30 Jun 2019
In reply to MischaHY:

> The first person seconding clips the other rope in as they go. 

This might not be possible if the ropes are really separated out. Alternatively, it could create horrendous drag for the third person. Less of an issue than for a leader but still not ideal - the leader has to be able to take in the rope! Also you still have the risk of the second person having a pendulum as they would only be clipped into half the runners. So I don’t think this is a general solution. It might work in some cases.

baron 01 Jul 2019
In reply to Gavin McColl:

You can lead the route.

Then bring up the next person who unclips your rope from the runners and clips the third persons rope into said runners.

When the second person arrives at the belay you, or they, belay the third person who unclips the rope from the runners and removes them.

Works best with single ropes and pitches without too many traverses.

It’s slower than bringing up two seconds at once but it was done like that for many years.

 Misha 01 Jul 2019
In reply to baron:

Yes and this can work well on traverses but doesn’t solve the issue of pitches where the ropes have to be very separate due to the route weaving around and / or due to where the gear is. 

 gravy 01 Jul 2019
In reply to C Witter:

The danger of mixing and matching clipping both ropes and clipping separately is that the ropes travel different paths and, in the event of a fall, one rope rubs on another heating and damaging it.  If you clip both ropes through all runners this is minimised. If you clip separate runners this is usually eliminated.  If you mix and match then friction can occur where both ropes share one runner.

There are occasions when mixing and matching makes sense: sometimes the first point from a belay to stop ropes snagging or to ensure you don't double load the belay (in which case the belayer can release one rope once you are past the next runner) or where the ropes would hang or snag badly (in which case it is best to use separate QDs to attach to the bit of gear).

As regards the OP question - run the ropes through separate gear (usually approximately alternately if you've got two seconds).  If you've got a traverse prioritise protecting the 1st second and brief them to leave their runners in and clip in the 2nd second).  If you have a weak or vulnerable climber (and a traverse) consider placing them on the middle of a rope and having them belayed from both ends.

Much faff climbing as a three comes from badly organised belays.  Consider where everyone will stand / sit or hang while you bring up the 3rd and while you climb on. Premake gear and attachment points for them in these positions, consider how you will organise the ropes, if you need to change positions or orders between pitches.  Make the 2nds carry lanyards attached to their tie-in points with a screwgate because this is extremely handy for instant clip-ins, temporary belays while you reconfigure something etc etc. If the belay space is tight or awkward you can get one second to wait just before the belay ledge and either hang there or take your place once you vacate.

Finally if you do have traverses, brief the 2nds to demand decent runners, confident leaders often cruise bits and forget, stressed leaders don't want to place too much gear and don't read the route backwards looking for 2nd falls. Reminders every few metres tend to help.

 Offwidth 01 Jul 2019
In reply to gravy:

I never mix and match. If I need a directional for both ropes I just use two extenders/krabs on the same runner. A lead fall on mixed and matched ropes has a serious risk of rope damage due to the potential of differential movement of tensioned ropes in contact.

I fail to completely understand how the OP had the concerns he did. On such big routes either everyone is normally fully competent at the grade, or the leader is effectively guiding and doesn't really need runners and protects entirely for the seconds. Where the leader may be 'stretched'  on a big multipitch route with relative beginner(s) as second(s) any problem with the leader (injury from a fall, unexpected deteriorating conditions,  loss of confidence, etc.) risks leaving all climbers stranded...I know people want to share their love of climbing with beginners but such a multi-pitch scenario is not the situation to do this.

The first seconder clipping the other rope before a traverse is normal... if there are concens about reaching it they can just clip into the other rope with a sling. If possible, belaying high above any traverse  is also normal.

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 Misha 01 Jul 2019
In reply to Sandstone Stickman:

Tieing both seconds onto the same rope(s) only works on routes which are easy for them so it’s very very unlikely that they would fall. If the last person falls, they will pull the middle person off. If the middle person takes a fall, they could knock off the last person on rope stretch. Not good either way.  

 Misha 01 Jul 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

Exactly. Route selection is the most important bit. Either go with competent seconds or go as if you are guiding and arrange the ropes and gear primarily to protect the seconds - but that takes practice in itself so just don’t climb with two less able seconds unless you can deal with it.

The best way to solve problems is to avoid them in the first place and sometimes the answer is simply that you should not be doing a given route with two seconds, depending on the route and the relative abilities of everyone involved. May be not the answer the OP wanted to hear but this is actually the best answer. 

 C Witter 01 Jul 2019
In reply to Misha:

I think that's a good "official" answer, but it's a bit overly censorious. There's a grand tradition of learning these things on the go, and a bit of rope drag isn't going to kill anyone (hopefully!). The route in question was Eagle Ridge - a mountain route graded Severe. It sounds like a brilliant day out in a team of three, no matter what the experience level. But, it also sounds like exactly the sort of route where the usual kind of pitched climbing tactics might need a bit of improv and revision, to avoid rope drag, snags and to be efficient.

Post edited at 11:12
 Misha 01 Jul 2019
In reply to C Witter:

It also sounds like a potential epic in the making if the seconds aren’t experienced (we don’t know, they may have been - the original question was about rope drag). Each to their own I suppose. 

 C Witter 01 Jul 2019
In reply to Misha:

I remember one of my first outings was up Bowfell Buttress. We were in two teams of two, and it was something like my 5th climb outside and first significant multipitch. I put a lot of trust in my friends, but they were also basically beginners. Overall, it took us an unbelievable 7 hours to climb! Definitely epic. But... I'll never forget it! A brilliant day.

It was also August. Another epic that was definitely a little too close for comfort involved a winter ascent of Central Gully, Left Branch, on Great End. It was my second time in crampons and, little did I know, my friend's first grade III lead... and probably second winter lead overall! We took about 8 hours to get to the summit, where we managed to contact people at home to let them know we were ok. In fact, they'd called mountain rescue... Oops. How embarrassing. Despite thinking we were now in the clear, we proceeded to wander around in the mist for a couple of hours, finally getting down to the valley after 11pm and home by 1am. My friend had originally told his partner we'd be home by 5pm! The next day I shamefacedly donated some money to the MRT as an apology and my friend did the same... but a week after that, confided in me: "It was a great day out though, wasn't it?"

p.s. Might seem off topic, but the point being: those days out when you really get taken to school are sometimes the most rewarding!

Post edited at 13:37
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 Misha 01 Jul 2019
In reply to C Witter:

I know what you mean but it can be a fine line between an adventure and a rescue situation, especially for the less experienced. I had a very good piece of advice recently from someone a lot more experienced than me: just because you can, doesn’t mean you should. A bit off topic but it goes back to my point above - avoid issues in the first place by not doing things which could cause issues. 

 C Witter 01 Jul 2019
In reply to Misha:

Aye - I do agree, despite the above. A route fitted to the team is one of the keys to an enjoyable day.

 PaulJepson 03 Jul 2019
In reply to Gavin McColl:

We climbed Inner Space (HVS 4c) as a 3 the other day and there were some logistical problems due to the (frankly ridiculous) nature of the route. Some improvisation was required. 

The second took a krab up on their belay loop with the third's rope attached and clipped it to every piece of gear they unclipped on the way up (so kind of like leading with one rope, with a toprope on for safety). When they got to the traverse where the other rope was primarily protected and there were some spicy runouts on their rope, the third climber took their rope tight and tied it off, so the second could attach a sling to the line and use it like a via ferrata to prevent a heinous swing. 

Not sure if it's all legit but seemed to work out well, discounting the incredible rope-drag on the third rope once everything was clipped. 

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 meggies 03 Jul 2019

Look up climbing in series and in parallel - this is often how instructors/guides climb as a 3 with clients.


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