UKH

I recently posted a question re the weather in Finale Ligure due to a climbing trip being cancelled due to bad weather. Some people asked which org I’d arranged the trip with but I didn’t want to say until the matter was concluded. I feel it’s worth a new thread with just the facts of what happened. Sorry for the length but I don't want to misrepresent anything. 

The organisation was No Boundaries who state they are a sports club; I had paid them a fee to arrange climbing instructors, transfers and accommodation. This fee was eventually returned so no issues with that aspect – they immediately offered to either transfer it to a future trip or refund.

Issue was that I was left with flights that I didn’t particularly want but I’d already paid for and found this out about eleven days before the trip. Moving the flights would have involved extra costs and there was no certainty that future trips would go ahead. I did manage to get my specialist climbing insurance to give me back my premium (they don’t cover cancellation due to weather, pretty much no one does).

I told NB repeatedly I wasn’t happy with this but they pointed to the waiver I signed up to when I registered which states they can cancel trips at any time. It was naïve of me not to take this into account, as other instructors I’ve paid to take me out generally always have a plan B even if this is just coaching technique in a local wall. NB have nothing but good reviews online (that I could find) so I wasn’t as careful as I might otherwise have been, plus they mentioned the trip was filling up quickly so I was keen to bag a place. The fact that it was filling up quickly also made me think it was unlikely to be cancelled but this was my mistake.

After several phone calls and emails back and forth, NB offered to give me a free place on a flight to a future trip (also transferring over their own fee). However, as this was after they’d told me they’d take legal action against me for libel/blackmail (?) if I told my various networks/social media about this (which, yes, I had previously told them I had every intention of doing - I genuinely don’t want anyone to make my same mistake and not pay close attention to this waiver) I, personally, didn’t feel comfortable going away with them any more and declined it. If this offer had been made earlier I would probably have accepted it, though it wouldn’t have been ideal because my future commitments would make this difficult.  As it was I just wanted compensation for the flights which is not going to happen.

If I had been in Italy anyway or have bagged super cheap flights it wouldn't have been as much of an issue, but my flights were not cheap and I had booked them around the transfers so they weren’t super convenient either.

I’m done with the situation now, it's over, but equally I don’t think I can be successfully sued for libel merely for relating what happened and wanted to answer those who’d asked who was involved.

I must say I did get loads of helpful advice from UKCers about going anyway, using public transport in Italy, offers of loans of a guidebook, alternative instructors etc, people here were great – I couldn’t get a partner together in the timeframe but those who’ve pm’ed me with useful info, thanks so much – I’ve saved this for the future. I’m aware most people here just organise their own trips but given I’m a sport climbing noob I ideally wanted to do something like the NB trip. Many of the people I know who already sport climb do it at a higher grade and I don’t want to impose on them by trying to join them and being a ball and chain. I know I could also join a climbing club (in the more traditional sense) depending on their requirements, but have always been concerned I couldn’t commit enough time to this given that my husband doesn’t climb so I tend to split my free time & holidays between climbing and him! I only did my first outdoor sport leads earlier this year with the help of an excellent instructor.

In reply to Hutson:

Nobody will take you to Court. If they have half a brain they will realise that the greedy lawyers will charge them at least ten times what they hope to recoup, with zero guarantee of a successful outcome.

In reply to Hutson:

That they even threatened legal action makes them a company to avoid in my book.

In reply to Hutson:

When was the trip meant to happen (sorry, can't find your other posts)?  I just got back from 2 weeks there and the weather was fine.... 

In reply to Hutson:

It sounds to me like they were quite reasonable.

In reply to Martin Haworth:

After threatening legal action?

I'm not so sure that's the best approach to customer service.

What hasn't been cleared up is: Was the weather really that bad? was this really the reason for cancelling the trip or was it a ruse to get out of the poorly booked up trip.

If it's the former and the weather was bad, I have some sympathy but then their business model should include provisions for this. If it's the latter then they would have done better to have run the course on a slight loss/break even only basis just to keep the brand reputation.

In reply to Iamgregp:

17-19 May. I don't know what the weather was actually like on the days we were meant to climb in the areas we were meant to climb; their position was that previous heavy rain and snow had made the entire area unsafe for us regardless of future weather (apparently acting on the advice of qualified mountain guides).

In reply to gethin_allen:

This is the thing. I do think their final offer, taken in isolation, was reasonable. It was just that it came after me phoning and sending several emails and alongside the threat of legal action that made it less palatable. 

NB state there were over 20 others on the trip and apparently I am the only one who has complained.

In reply to Hutson:

I'd love to hear an explanation of WHY the area would be unsafe for you. This does really sound like utter nonsense. Just to be clear, you're sure the area was Finale?

In reply to Hutson:

It sounds like you have now accepted it and getting over the clear disappointment.  It is a shame though as sounds like would have been a good trip.

I have used a number of mountaineering companies for guiding and they always have a back up plan.  A guide I know in Chamonix who works a lot for JG, when met with a horrendous forecast for the alps, spent time looking for alternatives and agreed with his clients to go sport climbing in the South of France instead.  Everyone chipped in for the travel cost.  May not have been the alpine climbing they had signed up for but everyone still had a great time.  It just needs a bit of thought and effort on the part of the guides/instructors.

I still think the reasoning as to why your trip was cancelled are a bit odd and their threat of legal action was appalling.

In reply to jon:

I am sure. I did push for a better explanation too but never really got one. The most I got was that the melting snow would cause issues with the area surrounding the crags.

https://www.no-boundaries.co.uk/sport-climbing-in-finale-ligure.html

In reply to Hutson:

The 17th was a warm albeit cloudy day our last climbing day of the trip and we climbed some Multi Pitch at, a great day out....

18th we went to Turin (where we were flying out from) and it pissed it down on the way, 19th we left, from Turin where it was still raining.

The previous 2 weeks had been lovely, couple of slightly drizzly days here and there but largely fine, warm, sunny weather.  To say that the entire area had been made unsafe by previous rain and snow doesn't match with what I experienced.  There was very little rain, no snow and there were plenty of other climbers out too.  

However what with it being a 3 day trip and 2 of those 2 looking rainy, I can see why somebody might have decided to call it off (though there are caves in the area that offer some climbing even in wet weather) and the locals did say the weather was unusually unsettled for that time of year.

So in summary, yes the weather wasn't great for the 3 days you would have been there, but that's not to say the whole area had become a rain and snow engulfed no go area!

I think I've stayed to facts, please don't sue me anyone. 

In reply to Hutson:

Yeah, that's just not true. Most of the crags we went to anyway were like a 15 minute walk along a path anyway.  A couple of them crossed a couple of stream beds.  Which were dry.

In reply to gethin_allen:

They threatened legal action after they were threatened with negative social media by Hotsun.

If we accept that the reason for the cancellation was genuine... then I think they have been reasonable and within their rights. In fact it could be argued that it was a brave decision by them, rather than risk going ahead against advice from a qualified guide. Just imagine the uproar if they had ignored the advice and gone ahead, just to make money and save face, and Hutson was injured!!  I always find it disappointing when people choose to sully the reputation of businesses on forums such as this.

Keep it between the company, yourself and if really necessary a solicitor.

In reply to Martin Haworth:

Hutson has been very constrained throughout all of this and very deliberately did not mention the company in the original thread.  I think Hutson has been very fair throughout.

I think the reports above of good weather in the period when the trip was cancelled show that something was never right about the original reason for cancellation being due to bad weather.  Irrespective it always seemed strange to cancel a trip a few weeks in advance due to weather.  At best the company were being ultra cautious, at worst they lied as they needed to cancel for another reason.  If it is the former then they need to seriously look at their business model as it is not sustainable to keep cancelling trips on the off-chance of inappropriate weather conditions.  If the latter, they should have been open and honest about the real reasons.

Having just looked at the organisation's website I really do not understand what is going on.  It is quite difficult to navigate and it is not really clear to me what this organisation is.  Are they a club or a commercial enterprise?  The FAQ is full of dead links.  My biggest concern is the prices.  They are very much in the too good to be true bracket.  I cannot see how they can break even with the prices they are charging.  The prices are at least less than half that of a fully commercial operation and it is well known that the commercial operators are struggling to make any profit.  It looks like a well meaning idea but with an unsustainable business model.  Of course I know I am speculating.

In reply to Hutson:

The chain of events you describe are not surprising at all. It is better for the company, from a self protectionist point of view, to cancel the trip. Cancelling without any overhead costs and having unhappy customers is better than running the trip, spending three rainy days at the local wall and providing accommodation and instruction, then having even unhappier customers complaining that things are "not as advertised" and demanding refunds. Cancellation waivers are the only way they would every take on the bookings from customers. I don't agree with it at all, but it's clear why they operate such a system.

In regards to the legal action thing - were they threatening legal action if you posted negative on-line reviews of their company, or if you revealed to others online that they had offered you free places on a future flight etc? 

In reply to Hutson:

I don't know where you are in the country, but you're welcome to climb with us anytime, we usually have  a wide spread of abilities, so being a noob is no problem, and I don't think anyone would think of you as a ball and chain. we also have people who drop in and out, and it's not a problem, I would imagine most clubs are the same. Obviously it would depend on club subs, ours are £5 a year, so it hardly likely to break the bank.

I'm not sure about other clubs, but I think most are pretty laid back, and most climbers are sympathetic to beginners. I don't think many would expect massive commitment or great climbing skills, the ability to belay safely is our most important issue.

In reply to Hutson:

thanks for the story - it's definetely a parable on reading the T&Cs before handing over money.

it's also a demonstration of if you have a sense of entitlement and complain enough you might get somethign you wouldn't otherwise have had any claim to. To be blunt, if you were travelling from the furthest reaches of the globe and decided to fly businesspremieroilsheik class why should the organisers be on the hook for that?

In reply to Hutson:

I think that you would find it hard to find any travel company that would accept consequential loss - not least of all because they would have no idea what their liability would be.  You seem rather to be presenting it as though they should, when the terms that you agreed said otherwise.  I can see why they advised you not to complain publicly about them not refunding you for your other costs when you had agreed the terms that excluded that.  It was probably not prudent (or financially viable) for them to threaten legal action, but at least they pointed out the gravity of the matter to you from their perspective.  Freedom of expression does not mean freedom from consequences.

As to whether or not they were right to cancel - that is a different matter.  It was certainly the prudent course if they had been advised to cancel.  At least they left you with a choice - not to travel and save your leave or your own employment costs, or change/cancel flights if possible, or travel anyway and do something else.  Judging by the Giro d'Italia TV coverage, the weather in Italy has been a bit off recently.

Would you have been happy with sitting in the rain or going to a wall instead?

In reply to nniff:

I don't disagree with any of this. But in his defence, how does any trip get cancelled for weather excepting some devastating some tsunami or earthquake.

We've all been out and had cracking days on dodgy forecasts, and that's only hours in advance let alone days. If you're taking people out, you always need a plan B but to cancel plan A due to weather in advance is madness. 

In reply to Hutson:

I think it’s clear from my OP that I accept I was naïve not to take the prospect of the trip being cancelled seriously and made a mistake in assuming it was unlikely not to run when it was a full course. I was excited to book this trip because the husband was away that weekend and it was therefore an excellent time to get some climbing in – we try to schedule so our differing pastimes can happen at the same time but it doesn’t always work out (given that both our hobbies/sports involve fitting in with other people) so I was delighted to find dates that lined up and got carried away booking based on their good reviews.

I don’t think I’m sullying their reputation by drawing attention to this waiver which I obviously did not take seriously enough. I would have appreciated seeing a thread like this that brought it home to me that it’s a very real possibility and as daWalt says at the very least it will help to avoid someone else making my same mistakes re T&Cs if it acts as a ‘parable’. The threat of legal action was when I said I thought others should know about this waiver. If the waiver is reasonable, as several of you have said it is, then what’s the issue in highlighting it thereby making it a bit less likely that someone else get disappointed/left with flights they don’t really want? I’ve outlined all the other stuff that happened in the interests of transparency and if people want to say more fool you then fair enough. I already feel a bit stupid for not anticipating this scenario but you live and learn and I won’t be getting carried away again.

My flights were a budget airline so not exactly luxurious ones, just not the fiver-each-way ones you often see advertised! I had no flexibility on days and times because I was fitting in with the transfers which didn’t help on price. I’d also paid each way for the great luxury of checking a bag so that I could take my own harness and belay device/krab, having checked previous threads that suggested whether you could get these through security in hand luggage was hit and miss. I didn’t want to use the organisation’s gear where I had my own that I was comfy with.

As I said in the OP, I have previously agreed on technique coaching at a wall as a worst-case scenario with instructors, if even if it is too bad for sheltered/quick-drying crags to be used (this is the kind of knowledge I’m paying for IMO and the reason I’m returning to the same instructor in a couple of weeks time in the Peak, knowing full well that the weather may or may not be on our side). That way you have the option to get out to the crag if the weather clears up. I would have still had people to travel with, transfers and accommodation and still learned something. Though not spending the whole weekend outdoors would have been disappointing for sure, I’d not have been annoyed at NB because I think that’s making the best of it. My mistake was not checking whether they would also take this approach.

Krikoman, that is very nice of you, thanks. I’m in London so my outdoor trips are few and far between due to the sheer amount of time it takes to get to any decent climbing (well there’s Southern Sandstone but whether you’d call that decent is debatable). I know some clubs quite rightly don’t appreciate newbies showing up only every now and then to benefit from people’s experience without ever ‘giving back’. (I lead indoors and consider myself a very safe belayer, that’s not an issue)

In reply to Hutson:

I going to go out on a limb and say this is complete horse manure.

In reply to FreshSlate:if I was planning a weeks sport climbing on limestone and I read the weather was going to be abysmal/unclimbable I'd consider chopping the trip.  

I've had some good days in the rain.  Middle grade sport climbs on limestone ain't one of them

In reply to wbo:

That might be reasonable if the weather was guaranteed to be unclimbable but that's rarely the case.

I'm pretty sunburnt right now (poor application of sunscreen) after a bank holiday where the sun wasn't supposed to be making an appearance. It rained for about 4 hours one morning and the rest of the weekend was wall to wall sunshine. 

I was once laughed at for going to Font as someone's mate was coming back from there after a month of rain, fortunately, no one can actually accurately predict the weather a week in advance and the week I went was great weather.

I guess in both cases you would have stayed at home I suppose. 

They cancelled 11 days before the trip, you'd have to be god himself to make that call. Ask a guide if they'd cancel a booking for weather that far out? Weather shouldn't be used as a get out of free jail card for any outdoor company to cancel whenever they want. 

 > (well there’s Southern Sandstone but whether you’d call that decent is debatable). I know some clubs quite rightly don’t appreciate newbies showing up only every now and then to benefit from people’s experience without ever ‘giving back’. (I lead indoors and consider myself a very safe belayer, that’s not an issue).

Don't take this too personally, but you seek experience yet turn your nose up at Southern Sandstone. It will school you far better than limestone as footwork and movement are prerequisite  to advancement. I'm back from Font next week and will happily meet you at a suitable crag if you have time. Either way, best of luck. Decent crags are less important than the challenge and learning potential in the early stages, assuming you want to learn.

In reply to Fishmate:

Ah that was a bit tongue in cheek, I’ve been to Bowles and Harrisons a few times as they’re accessible via public transport and they’re very pleasant places to spend a sunny day (albeit quite a lot of London climbers get the same idea and they tend to get really busy).

I think it is fair to say the lower grades aren’t always ideal for beginners due to polish and as it’s delicate I try to avoid being that person scrabbling around causing further wear on an already polished ‘easy’ grade often not being able to top out like I know I’m supposed to. I won’t go unless it’s dry enough either which means its often out.

In reply to Hutson:

Well, hopefully few climb when it's wet, them's the rules. Bowles and Harry's aren't your only options. Other crags offer solitude sans polish and are definitely suitable for beginners, which addresses your concerns. PM me if you like.

In reply to wbo:

Agreed, wouldn’t we all! However I was out there at the exact same time as Hutson’s trip, and was looking at the weather forecast a lot during and in the run up to it and not once did it look remotely like we wouldn’t get enough climbing in, didn’t for a second think of cancelling the trip. The weather forecast just wasn’t bad.

Come to think of it I was out there on the date her trip was cancelled (guess that was the 6th?), and there wasn’t a cloud in the sky that day.

Forecast didn’t show much likelihood of rain between then and Hutson's trip either. 

I’ve no appetite to libel a clearly litigious organisation. But I will say VERY strongly that the conditions they described as the reason for cancellation are absolutely nothing like what they were in reality, so let’s all quit with the “good call on the weather” line...

In reply to Iamgregp:

Am I misunderstanding this? I thought the OP was saying they cancelled long in advance, not because they expected rain that weekend but because snow over the winter had made the whole area unstable. That does sound very, very surprising.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

No, she found out 11 days before the trip was meant to happen. 

And anyway, if melting snow or rain (or whatever they said) had caused the whole area to become unstable (which it hadn’t) i would have expected they would have known more than 11 days in advance?

Surprising is one way to put it, I suppose...